For those who don't believe in creationism:Unfortunately what follows is no more of a theory than a literal interpretation of Genesis, creationism, or intelligent design.
QuoteWhy do you make assertions like this in a debate atmosphere? Where is your undeniable, irrefutable proof? There is none.
Oh there is you just ignored it!
I actually presented evidence first, which you then dismissed. Those three YouTube videos aren't gone, you know. Watch them, find the parts you disagree with, and list them here. Then, using logic or data, prove them wrong.
This is the process science has to use to debunk creationist disinformation all of the time, so it is rather tiresome when you write one or two line responses and call that "debunking".
Then, after you have debunked the videos, assuming you were right, then we will look at your mediumship evidence. But not before. Stop avoiding the question: what is wrong with those videos? Cite specific examples.exactly. evolution is believed to be a gradual process and so where are the missing blocks of the jigsaw?Really not sure what the missing jigsaw blocks are, but I have to comment that whatever Newton thought personally about his law of gravitation, it was correct (for the most part). So whatever Darwin thought about evolution has nothing to do with whether it is right or not.
Plus, even if the author isn't so confident in his theory, how can we be?logically, if something came into existence following another, does it necessarily mean that the latter came from the former?No. Neither cars nor trains are living. They are not subject to natural selection. They do not reproduce. They cannot pass DNA to their offspring. They are not subject to mutation. And they are known to be man-made. Animals are known to be born from their parents, not "made" so much as birthed. Every generation is a new mix of DNA.
eg: Suppose a train is invented after a car, (or vice-versa) it doesnt mean that trains were invented from cars does it?a very simple argument: If humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?Because...there is no reason that monkeys would die out. Also, we did not evolve from monkeys. Why are creationists still asking about humans evolving from monkeys again? I answered that already! And seeing as though I am (nearly) the only evolutionist here willing to answer these repetitive questions, I'm a little tired of it. Monkeys and humans evolved separately.
http://www.needananswer.co.uk/questions/monkeys.html (http://www.needananswer.co.uk/questions/monkeys.html)
We are here because we are very, very, very lucky. So how come I haven't won the lottery twenty times in a row yet?
I don't have to answer to Evolution, YOU have to answer to.......psychic abilities.........love...............You are correct in your assertion that the burden of proof lies on me for love, psychic abilities, well...I always notice that psychics are most "skilled" at their "craft" when it is impossible to disprove what they are saying and also when your money is in their pockets. :D
You have a ton to disprove, you have to disprove that we are spiritual beings...Well, the burden of proof actually lies on you for this one. You have to show that there is such a thing as a spirit, 'k?
...and I far as I know quantum physics is related with all this stuff, but I'm no expert there....In the same way quantum physics relates to fairies. Not really.
I don't care how much proof you think you have, you have to tell us all why Evolution doesn't fit what's been happening. ::)You may want to elaborate here. But elaboration is good. Healthy skepticism is good as well; religion is all that this will hurt. I want to share a video with y'all:
BTW what's up wit' the youtube button? I'm using the new theme if that helps...Omega didn't fix that yet... I think. ::)
Omega didn't fix that yet... I think. ::)Whats wrong with the youtube button?
Umm... it's not there.... ::) (for me at least ::)Omega didn't fix that yet... I think. ::)Whats wrong with the youtube button?
[URL=http://img532.imageshack.us/i/ss12h.jpg/][IMG]http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9705/ss12h.jpg[/img][/URL]QuoteUmm...let's see. yeah.Also, something is wrong with the... ::)What is wrong with it? Are you refering to the slight bit of white around the buttons? I suppose I MIGHT be able to fix that by replacing the alpha with an actual grey, although it would mean no background changes (ie: it's grey now, it'll always be grey).Code: [Select][URL=http://img44.imageshack.us/i/screenshot23i.jpg/][IMG]http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1234/screenshot23i.jpg[/img][/URL]
I also didn't see any youtube bbcode or spoiler. ::)
Now, as the ULTIMATE religious discussion, all atheists bow down before jesus for giving you a week off of school. At least ACT grateful! :angel:
All though I do want the afterlife to have floating people serving milkshakes ;D
There are signs of creation everywhere
why do animals have all the right instincts so that they survive on their own.
Why does my body keep breathing
why do I wake up when I have to go pee in the middle of the night?
You guys have yet to present your view of evolution, just say exactly how you think evolution works, because it seems that there are a lot of different understandings here....
QuoteDo you deny any of these properties? If so, which ones, and most importantly, why?
The reason that watches and everything else which is created (i.e. not life) does not evolve is simple: watches do not die or reproduce, and are thus not subject to natural selection.
I'll provide links of evidence now:
1)Code: [Select][url=http://aklemai.com/albums/forum/obvious.gif]Everything dies[/url].
2) Organisms who are suited to their environment live longer to produce more offspring (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060814163525AAKrWPE).Code: [Select][url=http://206.130.110.244/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/saratanis2007-08-20fish_out_of_water1.JPG]The converse is also true[/url].
3) Offspring are different than their parents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria#Evolutionary_pressure_of_malaria_on_human_genes).
Why the hell can I walk, why is it that my body is designed well enough so I can run
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QxdSTrwwE&feature=related[/youtube]why don't my hands randomly flutter around disconnect and crawl away, why is it that we are nothing like robots?
I mean, seriously, where are the half monkey half humans, there really should be more of them than Humans!
[url=http://www.darwiniana.org/hominid.htm]There are plenty of them.[/url] You just can’t decide which ones are all ape and which are all human. That’s because they’re transitional; they’re not supposed to be just one or the other.There may not be a "god", but there must be a powerful being with the ability to create things!
Thanks for not answering most of my questions, I'm done arguing with you, you're just avoiding the truth.
[img]http://www.marsesa.9f.com/slide_shows/AS10-32-4822/ThreeWiseMonkeys_A1.jpg[/img]
arch, you push everything onto us, give me ONE post, were you actually responded with intelligence...
If you started from one cell, then:
Why do Humans reproduce sexually, instead of asexually?
-Nothing is random, but Evolution is as close as it gets, so where are all of Evolutions mistakes?
-Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?
You really think that complicated pieces of meat have a will?
Why do you think that a complicated piece of meat would care about where it came from?
Why should one complicated piece of meat care about another complicated piece of meat?
-Why can I express anger?
Sure I have chemicals in my brain that cause me to look angry, but why should those chemicals elevate, why don't they just stay the same?
Quote
If you started from one cell, then:
Why do Humans reproduce sexually, instead of asexually?
-Nothing is random, but Evolution is as close as it gets, so where are all of Evolutions mistakes?
Humans produce sexually, well, i answer two questions in one, that might be one of evolutions mistakes, or it might be a advantage (i see it as a advantage Laughing)
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-Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?
You really think that complicated pieces of meat have a will?
Why do you think that a complicated piece of meat would care about where it came from?
Why should one complicated piece of meat care about another complicated piece of meat?
Why do you brign in will? though of what if will did not exist, what if the entire universe were like a movie, that happens because that happend infinity?
Do you do things that are illogical? if it is illogical it would not serve any purpose, and whatever you do, it has a purpose, if i ran naked around in a town, jumping on strangers, it would have made me "hated" by alot of people, then it would served a purpose.
Soryy, but my english come a little too short here, you do not express anger, you do something because something happened, aka, a chemical reaction, here my english comes short, elevate?? do you mean, like change? like one atom changes to another to make you look angry? let me tell you, that is not what happens, your eyes, see something, transmit to the brain, then, your angry! same thing with ears, taste etc.
You ask a question Ill answer.
And what is the squished pick about?
QuoteQuote
If you started from one cell, then:
Why do Humans reproduce sexually, instead of asexually?
-Nothing is random, but Evolution is as close as it gets, so where are all of Evolutions mistakes?
Humans produce sexually, well, i answer two questions in one, that might be one of evolutions mistakes, or it might be a advantage (i see it as a advantage Laughing)
Don't be like Modman, I want to hear how evolution could have gotten sexual from asexual.
Sorry, that was a poorly stated question.QuoteQuote
-Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?
You really think that complicated pieces of meat have a will?
Why do you think that a complicated piece of meat would care about where it came from?
Why should one complicated piece of meat care about another complicated piece of meat?
Why do you brign in will? though of what if will did not exist, what if the entire universe were like a movie, that happens because that happend infinity?
Do you do things that are illogical? if it is illogical it would not serve any purpose, and whatever you do, it has a purpose, if i ran naked around in a town, jumping on strangers, it would have made me "hated" by alot of people, then it would served a purpose.
No offense dude, but that was a terrible answer, because, why should a piece of meat care about purposes?
I don't see why anything should matter to a piece of meat...QuoteSoryy, but my english come a little too short here, you do not express anger, you do something because something happened, aka, a chemical reaction, here my english comes short, elevate?? do you mean, like change? like one atom changes to another to make you look angry? let me tell you, that is not what happens, your eyes, see something, transmit to the brain, then, your angry! same thing with ears, taste etc.
Uh, I don't think so......... ::)
Why should I get angry, how can I have a cause to get angry if I'm just a piece of meat?
Yet, people get angry at each other all the time, there's something about Evolution that makes absolutely no sense. :PQuoteYou ask a question Ill answer.
And what is the squished pick about?
Cool, I have some defenses now! :cheesy:
Why do Humans reproduce sexually, instead of asexually?Science genuinely does not have an answer to this question right now. The separation from asexual reproduction was a big leap, but I would suspect personally that it could be traced back to creatures like slime molds that reproduce in both ways.
Nothing is random, but Evolution is as close as it gets, so where are all of Evolutions mistakes?"Mistake" implies a specified purpose, but in evolution there is none. The closest thing to a "mistake" could be extinctions.
Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?You can't. Things that are illogical are also impossible. Example: a round square, exceeding the speed of light, etc.
Why can I express anger?Since neuropsychology is not a layman's hobby, I challenge you to show that this is relevant. Not that there isn't an answer, but you're just as capable of finding it as I, if that is really your desire.
Sure I have chemicals in my brain that cause me to look angry, but why should those chemicals elevate, why don't they just stay the same?
Because if you consider "everything [you] got" to be re-stating your initial position, you might as well write a cohesive thesis statement and call it a term paper.Quotearch, you push everything onto us, give me ONE post, were you actually responded with intelligence...
Well, if Evolution is so true, then why do you care if I hit you with everything I got?
Comon, Omega, Elim, can't you guys help out?Oh, you mean Eliminator, the one who has a difficulty discerning childish name calling from rhetoric?
QuoteSoryy, but my english come a little too short here, you do not express anger, you do something because something happened, aka, a chemical reaction, here my english comes short, elevate?? do you mean, like change? like one atom changes to another to make you look angry? let me tell you, that is not what happens, your eyes, see something, transmit to the brain, then, your angry! same thing with ears, taste etc.
Uh, I don't think so......... ::)
Why should I get angry, how can I have a cause to get angry if I'm just a piece of meat?
Yet, people get angry at each other all the time, there's something about Evolution that makes absolutely no sense. :P
Cool, I have some defenses now!This is a debate, not a shouting contest. It doesn't matter if you have 2 people on your side or 2000; those who present appropriate rhetoric and evidence will always defeat those who don't.
What are you talking about?Comon, Omega, Elim, can't you guys help out?Oh, you mean Eliminator, the one who has a difficulty discerning childish name calling from rhetoric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric)?
What are you talking about?Comon, Omega, Elim, can't you guys help out?Oh, you mean Eliminator, the one who has a difficulty discerning childish name calling from rhetoric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric)?
And why did you post this (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5156.msg44871#msg44871) squished pic?It shouldn't be squished...
modman, the followers of creationists are like sheeps, the creationists won`t say that creation is wrong, plain because the gain on being a creationist leeding the "sheeps". archmage is one of those creationists leading the sheep, he sees the truth, but won`t admit it is true, just because he will loose power/honour/respect, whatever...
PS: Gabbe, you might want to stay out of this discussion, you're making the Evolutionists look terrible. Tongue
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Laughing Laughing Laughing
If you stand by that statement, then you've no clue what honor is.
sure show my posts to your dad, but also show him that my english is bad...I'll tell him you're foreign. ;) [You mean, "foreigner"? :D - @kukac@]
and im 13... as you but your american right? english is your main language, or... call it american if you want Cheesy
Actually, Gabbe's argument about the wolves and dogs is pretty much a perfect representation of what evolution and natural selection are. The individuals of a group that can survive better and reproduce better pass on their genes while the ones that are less fit don't.
SERIOUSLY? I didn`t think it was possible to understand it with my english...I'm a Communications student. Maybe that's why. ;D
Indeed. In a way, our culture inhibits natural selection. I kinda like the idea of eugenics, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable saying I'm in favor of actually doing it.(click to show/hide)
Also, why did Humans appear suddenly, why didn't we come in gradually?[citation needed]
Also, why did Humans appear suddenly, why didn't we come in gradually?[citation needed]
I don't see how any of that supports apes turning into Humans................ ::)How doesn't it!? To summarize the current idea on how humans evolved (my understanding of it anyway), is this: when a group of apes ended up on the grassland (for whatever reason, probably climate change) natural selection favored those that could walk better and stand more upright. While it would seem like having a pair of feet that could act as hands would be an advantage, humanoid feet are much better for walking. If I wanted to have a cross-country foot race against a troop of chimpanzees, I would most certainly win. Also, standing upright is a huge advantage for wide open areas like a grassland, because you can see farther. On top of that, we can carry things because we're not using our hands for travel like a knuckle-walking ape. You can find prey and avoid predators because you can see them coming before a chimp ever could. As we began to be able to carry things, the usefulness of tools increased, so smarter ape-folk were favored, leading to increased brain size. You know what you get when you take an ape and give it a big brain, an upright posture, and human-like feet? A human.
That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!Most mutations do die. It's not like the entire species experiences a mutation all at the same time. Remember my example with dwarfism a while ago? It's not like the entire human population shrunk, but rather just one individual at a time. However, if people with achondroplasia had an advantage that helped them survive better than others, pretty soon we'd have an entire species under five feet tall.
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.lol Who says you do? :O
I just looked up Evolution, and it basically says you have gene mutations, and the animals that survive pass on their mutations.
That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.
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That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!
Does saber tooth tiger, mammoth, dinosaurs, and their friends tell you something? Dodo's couldn't mutate a bulletproof skin, so they traveled far away Smile
Quote
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
Large brain Smile
How doesn't it!? To summarize the current idea on how humans evolved (my understanding of it anyway), is this: when a group of apes ended up on the grassland (for whatever reason, probably climate change) natural selection favored those that could walk better and stand more upright. While it would seem like having a pair of feet that could act as hands would be an advantage, humanoid feet are much better for walking. If I wanted to have a cross-country foot race against a troop of chimpanzees, I would most certainly win. Also, standing upright is a huge advantage for wide open areas like a grassland, because you can see farther. On top of that, we can carry things because we're not using our hands for travel like a knuckle-walking ape. You can find prey and avoid predators because you can see them coming before a chimp ever could. As we began to be able to carry things, the usefulness of tools increased, so smarter ape-folk were favored, leading to increased brain size. You know what you get when you take an ape and give it a big brain, an upright posture, and human-like feet? A human.
Most mutations do die. It's not like the entire species experiences a mutation all at the same time. Remember my example with dwarfism a while ago? It's not like the entire human population shrunk, but rather just one individual at a time. However, if people with achondroplasia had an advantage that helped them survive better than others, pretty soon we'd have an entire species under five feet tall.
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And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
lol Who says you do? Laughing
Quote
I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.
Please, feel free, that's why this topic is for Tongue
Well then, I'm kinda curious where all the dead bodies and skeletons are that can prove this, there should be many more skeletons of mutated animals that did not survive, than the number of Humans that exist today.
So, your assuming that Evolution killed them off? When it might have been something else.....
why is it that I can control my brain, and use it
Because I am in control
Do you actually believe that we would have time in the universe to get from 1 cell to a Human body?
I've heard that the math has been done
I've done some thinking and I've figured the chance of Evolution getting from one cell to a Human is a ton closer to impossible, than 0.0000000000000000000000010 is to 0.0000000000000000000000011, not quite impossible, but so un-likely you could easily consider it impossible
Well then, I'm kinda curious where all the dead bodies and skeletons are that can prove this, there should be many more skeletons of mutated animals that did not survive, than the number of Humans that exist today.Most mutations are too minor to notice, especially in a fossil record. Those albino foxes, for example. If you look at an albino fox and a regular fox after a thousand years, you can't tell the difference. On top of that, skeletons don't really last all that long. This is why there are so few fossils in the world when compared to the number of dead organisms.
So, your assuming that Evolution killed them off? When it might have been something else.....Evolution doesn't kill anything. These are all examples of animals who were unfit to survive in their situations, and thus they died off. Dinosaurs were unfit to survive in their conditions (from an asteroid strike or whatever), and mammoths were too tasty to survive. Dodo birds lived on an island where there were no natural predators, so they never had to adapt any defenses. When we showed up, they were remarkably easy to hunt because they couldn't hide, fly, or run away very well, so they all died. Are you sensing a pattern yet? Things that aren't fit to survive, don't.
Correction, a Human body.Err... and your point is?
Read below.
Do you actually believe that we would have time in the universe to get from 1 cell to a Human body?I never said that, nor do I intend on addressing the topic of abiogenesis. I merely explained how natural selection works. You're trying to put words in my mouth.
I've heard that the math has been done, I don't remember the amount of years, but I can tell you, it's "unbe-***-lievably" longer than Evolutionist say the Earth has been around.
I've done some thinking and I've figured the chance of Evolution getting from one cell to a Human is a ton closer to impossible, than 0.0000000000000000000000010 is to 0.0000000000000000000000011, not quite impossible, but so un-likely you could easily consider it impossible.
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And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
lol Who says you do? Laughing
Of course you would say that. That's exactly what the electrochemical reactions in your brain told you to say. :)(click to show/hide)
Quotelol Holding back your secret weapons, eh?
I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.
Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim. (im not being racist, and i have brown skin, natural myself)How about Timothy McVeigh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh)?
Well, when the topic name says otherwise terrorism is off-topic. :cheesy:If the terrorism is motivated by religion, it's perfectly on topic. I think it's a little silly to have a debate about that, though. I'm sure pretty much all of us would say it's bad to blow up buildings full of civilians because your preacher told you to.
Y'know, you could try not to lump an entire religion of like a billion people together with the few psychotic nutjobs that give them a bad name.
I don't see how any of that supports apes turning into Humans.First, humans are apes. Your statement is equivalent of saying you want to turn cars into Fords. There are no traits apes have that humans do not have.
Also, why did Humans appear suddenly, why didn't we come in gradually?
Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim.Jihad Jane would be another counterexample to this.
Pretty much everybody likes sex, and according to the Muslims, if you do the will of Allah, you get "68 black eyed virgins" in the afterlife. Or was it 69....It's 72. And a mistranslation also. Then again, so is Hell...
Now, as the ULTIMATE religious discussion, all atheists bow down before Jesus for giving you a week off of school. At least ACT grateful!just to say something for people giving you a week off (which should be more) has nothing to do with religion and you should be as grateful for something more important like having food to eat because people in poor countries don't and they wish they have; so even as small as eating a blueberry or something they are grateful most people who have lots more aren't.. getting off topic again Even though this was somewhat of a joke I still had something to say about it. But anyways having a week off from school is merely what society thinks we should have, not to over work kids and have a break. If people thought we don't need it then we wouldn't of have a week off. This is with anything else too.
There are signs of creation everywhere, why do animals have all the right instincts so that they survive on their own.Why does my body keep breathing, why do I wake up when I have to go pee in the middle of the night?Why the hell can I walk, why is it that my body is designed well enough so I can runAnimals must have abilities to survive and adapt to there environment that's why many animals die off in the wrong environment. all animals have advantages and disadvantages. Oh just so you know we ARE animals just the smartest ones with the biggest brains but we are NOT on top of the food chain we can get easily killed by many animals like bears. And to the question how does your body keep breathing that is causes by your brain; your brain control voluntary and involuntary actions such as breathing and that's to keep us alive being able to take in oxygen and like plants we exhale CO2 and that's good for plants and plants give off Oxygen. Those are just naturals things we HAVE to do its one of our basic needs. Like to survive we need food and water. To pee that's you body getting rid of waste in your body both solid and liquid. And to the running and walking you need something to get you one place to another; again other thing to survive. Its just that running is moving faster than walking like in an emergency you need to escape from an animal you need to getting away faster.To run we have strong enough muscles to run and it takes those muscles to run more than walking.
this should count more than once this took a long timeIt can totally count more than once cause it is long and looks like you put alot of your own thoughts into it , btw i completely agree with everything you said even the stereotypes people should be able to be who they are without having someone tell them they are different or the wrong way
-Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?Because a piece of meat is meat, not an animal although it comes from animals it is not alive it can't breath or do anything because its just meat.... and you can do what you want because you are alive you can eat, breath, sleep, walk. etc. you have a brain that helps you to decide and think and to actually do And to anger the stimulus in the environment cause chemicals to your brain and your brain decides what it should do that's a reaction and that can cause you to be angry
You really think that complicated pieces of meat have a will?
Why do you think that a complicated piece of meat would care about where it came from?
Why should one complicated piece of meat care about another complicated piece of meat?
-Why can I express anger?
Sure I have chemicals in my brain that cause me to look angry, but why should those chemicals elevate, why don't they just stay the same
It was an image of the three apes in "Planet of the Apes" doing the old "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", something I think about when people post that they're not interested in any other opinions (the very definition of closed-mindedness).OMG i love that part in the movie planets of the apes *(its my favorite part) also so true...
but our design is much to smart and logical to be a strange occurrence like Evolution.When you think of evolution we evolved from other animals but where did those animals come from? There must have came from somewhere. What I think is that someone created one animals that was able to live and survive but then evolution happened. We couldn't have just have have been with a brain or systems like nervous system someone must have done that. But that someone didn't create a human it was some kind of animal that eventually turned into us by evolution. To get this straight humans actually weren't created; it was another animal that turned into us.No one ever thinks of that statement.So i think its both sides of this argument but little different its my own side muhaha.
The individuals of a group that can survive better and reproduce better pass on their genes while the ones that are less fit don't.Yes I agree to this; that's basically evolution. Animals, to survive they pass their genes to their off spring. Sometimes their is a faulty gene that causes a "change". For example a red head that was a mutation and the person who had it passed its genes to its off-spring and since the mutation wasn't bad because not all faulty genes are bad the gene was able to survive and still have people have that gene. And when its bad like if someone has cancer or some other kind of disease the person dies and a less likely chance of passing down the gene but that gene was strong enough to still exist and be passed
Albino foxes die, because they can't hide in the forest normally, so they can't pass on their genes.
I just looked up Evolution, and it basically says you have gene mutations, and the animals that survive pass on their mutations.First off its not random its causes by a fault gene and not all mutations are bad.
That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!
The math has been done, with the most possible luck, for Evolution to do what it's supposed to have done, it would've taken many thousands of times longer than the universe has been around![citation needed]
Quoteone of the best movies btw
It was an image of the three apes in "Planet of the Apes" doing the old "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", something I think about when people post that they're not interested in any other opinions (the very definition of closed-mindedness).
OMG i love that part in the movie planets of the apes *(its my favorite part) also so true...
Yah, but you may meet our creator and maybe come back for another experience as a Human.
made ZERO sense to me...QuoteYah, but you may meet our creator and maybe come back for another experience as a Human.
I think if you die earlier than me, then you will be dead longer than me.
Well, we may have a Cambrian Explosion 2, then.Not yet, but the universe has been around for 6 ...ok, now im uncertain of what to say, as i know the correct number in norwegian... lets say billion years, and the earth 3 billion years, then human kind is actually quite early specie as for other species to appear will take longer time as their planets has to appear and become more "life friendly" then EVOLUTION HAS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE THEM CAPEABLE OF USING THEIR BRAINS OR INSTINCT and then they may evolve further into something i would like to call "space stage".
There is no way we could screw up the universe, we don't have anywhere near that kind of power.
Yeah, and in the ancient ages, many tribes wrote "The world is flat". If something is written, it doesn't mean that it's true.first, correct, second dunno what you ment but i think i did.
(But why do I bother myself with evolution by the way? I will die anyway ;D )
You Evolutionists are in for it! :oI have never seen a movie in my local movie store/games store sell anything called that...Id i can`t get it, you mind if i pirate or you upload youtube?
I was way off on the math, the math in Evolution is many many trillions of times worse than what a heard months ago.
My source is a very good movie I just watched called "The Case for a Creator", I seriously recommend buying it, it has tons of extras including a Q&A!
Maybe you could watch it in parts on Youtube, but I haven't looked into that.
is anyone read my posts and does it make sincemakes sence, is completely correct and should not be needed to be post as it is So obivious that everything of your statements are true
Quote-Why can I do what I want, even if what I want doesn't make sense, or is illogical?Because a piece of meat is meat, not an animal although it comes from animals it is not alive it can't breath or do anything because its just meat.... and you can do what you want because you are alive you can eat, breath, sleep, walk. etc. you have a brain that helps you to decide and think and to actually do And to anger the stimulus in the environment cause chemicals to your brain and your brain decides what it should do that's a reaction and that can cause you to be angry
You really think that complicated pieces of meat have a will?
Why do you think that a complicated piece of meat would care about where it came from?
Why should one complicated piece of meat care about another complicated piece of meat?
-Why can I express anger?
Sure I have chemicals in my brain that cause me to look angry, but why should those chemicals elevate, why don't they just stay the sameQuoteIt was an image of the three apes in "Planet of the Apes" doing the old "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil", something I think about when people post that they're not interested in any other opinions (the very definition of closed-mindedness).OMG i love that part in the movie planets of the apes *(its my favorite part) also so true...Quotebut our design is much to smart and logical to be a strange occurrence like Evolution.When you think of evolution we evolved from other animals but where did those animals come from? There must have came from somewhere. What I think is that someone created one animals that was able to live and survive but then evolution happened. We couldn't have just have have been with a brain or systems like nervous system someone must have done that. But that someone didn't create a human it was some kind of animal that eventually turned into us by evolution. To get this straight humans actually weren't created; it was another animal that turned into us.No one ever thinks of that statement.So i think its both sides of this argument but little different its my own side muhaha.QuoteThe individuals of a group that can survive better and reproduce better pass on their genes while the ones that are less fit don't.Yes I agree to this; that's basically evolution. Animals, to survive they pass their genes to their off spring. Sometimes their is a faulty gene that causes a "change". For example a red head that was a mutation and the person who had it passed its genes to its off-spring and since the mutation wasn't bad because not all faulty genes are bad the gene was able to survive and still have people have that gene. And when its bad like if someone has cancer or some other kind of disease the person dies and a less likely chance of passing down the gene but that gene was strong enough to still exist and be passed
Albino foxes die, because they can't hide in the forest normally, so they can't pass on their genes.QuoteI just looked up Evolution, and it basically says you have gene mutations, and the animals that survive pass on their mutations.First off its not random its causes by a fault gene and not all mutations are bad.
That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!
Forgot to mention some stuff that will make my point better but im too lazy right now i will edit later
Ok i'll guess I'll join this debate thing im kinda late though i wished i saw and posted before and just to let you know I really think this it a good topic. I have a strong believe of what I think. I have no religion I believe what I WANT TO and choose to; I never been to church my whole life. Very ignorant when it come it the bible and God or what ever religion is which; it doesn't matter to me. My mom calls me the devil's child (as a joke) because I don't go to church or anything. I guess people might call me Atheist cause I don't believe in god and to believe something i must see it proved first but Atheist is somewhat of a religion its self or would you call it a stereotype? Easy, everyone thinks people should act or behave or believe a certain thing its just what people do and how this society is just like how people call people nerds,goth,preppy,etc, because they act different but they should be free to do whatever they want without ridicule and people calling them stuff but now i feel as if im getting off topic.. I'm very logical when it comes to MY believes -somewhat (i think). Going back on the topic of Evolution: Most people here did not say logical or reasonable things here and I have a say in them; well here it goes. BTW I worked really hard on this post lol this should count more than once this took a long time; it has lots of words anyways I have horrible grammar and stuff so you might not understand what im talking about most of the time so read carefully.Why did you bother, one of your arguments should have been enough, though, most of it has already been stated.QuoteNow, as the ULTIMATE religious discussion, all atheists bow down before Jesus for giving you a week off of school. At least ACT grateful!just to say something for people giving you a week off (which should be more) has nothing to do with religion and you should be as grateful for something more important like having food to eat because people in poor countries don't and they wish they have; so even as small as eating a blueberry or something they are grateful most people who have lots more aren't.. getting off topic again Even though this was somewhat of a joke I still had something to say about it. But anyways having a week off from school is merely what society thinks we should have, not to over work kids and have a break. If people thought we don't need it then we wouldn't of have a week off. This is with anything else too.QuoteThere are signs of creation everywhere, why do animals have all the right instincts so that they survive on their own.Why does my body keep breathing, why do I wake up when I have to go pee in the middle of the night?Why the hell can I walk, why is it that my body is designed well enough so I can runAnimals must have abilities to survive and adapt to there environment that's why many animals die off in the wrong environment. all animals have advantages and disadvantages. Oh just so you know we ARE animals just the smartest ones with the biggest brains but we are NOT on top of the food chain we can get easily killed by many animals like bears. And to the question how does your body keep breathing that is causes by your brain; your brain control voluntary and involuntary actions such as breathing and that's to keep us alive being able to take in oxygen and like plants we exhale CO2 and that's good for plants and plants give off Oxygen. Those are just naturals things we HAVE to do its one of our basic needs. Like to survive we need food and water. To pee that's you body getting rid of waste in your body both solid and liquid. And to the running and walking you need something to get you one place to another; again other thing to survive. Its just that running is moving faster than walking like in an emergency you need to escape from an animal you need to getting away faster.To run we have strong enough muscles to run and it takes those muscles to run more than walking.
Still have lots more stuff to say.
Are you making your own theory, or are you creationist, you are definately not evolutionist.
EVOLUTION HAS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE THEM CAPEABLE OF USING THEIR BRAINS OR INSTINCT
There is way more proof for God than there is for Evolution!
You have yet to present evidence for your god (i will not accept "you have to belive" as a answer as it is pure ignorance)True you can't just have blind faith in something that isn't real. I mean look at the Holocaust who/what could just seat by and let that happen.
We have done the same thing with this monotheistic god we couldn't explain why we were here so we created GOD and the bible , but now we have the technology and other resources to disprove this and now the religion of this monotheistic god is crumbling quick .
I have presented you evidence for evolution in real-time wich you can observe within a normal human lifespan
We have presented you with evidence wich can be observed by fossils
You have yet to present evidence for your god (i will not accept "you have to belive" as a answer as it is pure ignorance)
i don't think god created dinosaurs just to kill them all.
Another thing is Mythology you remember that . Its where a group of people thought gods controlled the weather , the sun and much of what now we know is simple science. They were simply putting something that they couldn't understand into something they could. We have done the same thing with this monotheistic god we couldn't explain why we were here so we created GOD and the bible , but now we have the technology and other resources to disprove this and now the religion of this monotheistic god is crumbling quick .
Quote
You have yet to present evidence for your god (i will not accept "you have to belive" as a answer as it is pure ignorance)
True you can't just have blind faith in something that isn't real. I mean look at the Holocaust who/what could just seat by and let that happen.
Evolution isn`t a theory of how the universe or life were created, but it is just a matter of time till we can proove that we weren`t created by god. this is kind of "his/her/its" last stand bleedout... as the only thing god can proove is how life were created, and that isn`t even the intention of the old people from the old times..
The universe is perfect, live can exist because of that.This is horribly wrong in every way , we could get hit with anything at any time and destroy our little planet lol nothing is to stop our star (sun) from shooting out a solar flare and then our atmosphere goes poof lmfao.
Just watch the video for more proof.
You're right, Evolution isn't a theory! Evolution is a joke! LaughingThis is pure ignorance at it`s worst, i wasn`t supporting evolution in this case, and you say it is a joke, that was just straight out ignorance, calling evolution a joke means i can call god a "inapropriate for children so i won`t tell you" and then put a smiley behind it and say it was a joke...
That's like saying that you don't think a designer made a boat to watch it sink. No Opinion
What's the fun of creating a universe if your going to have complete control over it
Yes, we can understand, and it is that understanding which points us in the direction of a creator.
Blind faith?
No.
My belief in a creator is fully supported by logic and science, it is Evolution which is crumbling.
God is merely letting Humans do what they will, good or bad, Humans learn from the experiences.i wanna fix this sentence:
Gabbe, please leave, you are impossible to debate with simply because you call what you don't understand ignorance..... i consider myself a good debater
I want to debate with someone like Modman, who knows how to debate!
im done with debating with you, post your sources while debating, i might switch to your side...
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 17:57:08
Gabbe, please leave, you are impossible to debate with simply because you call what you don't understand ignorance.
I want to debate with someone like Modman, who knows how to debate!
.... i consider myself a good debater
you are, but arch isn`t going to admit it plainly because your presenting solid evidence, wich someone can`t take...
i would also like to see omega post.......that would be very interesting; me too
The Short Proof of Evolution read it
i would also like to see omega post....Apparently, he is busy. ::) :O
i would also like to see omega post....Apparently, he is busy. ::) :O
The Short Proof of Evolution (http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm) read itwere? in prev posts?
well,It is a link... ::)The Short Proof of Evolution (http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/essays/courtenay1.htm) read itwere? in prev posts?
i wan`t to know what im spending my money on... No Opinion
QuoteThe Short Proof of Evolution read it
I don't see how that's proof, the guy just "claims" stuff.
Besides, you're supposed to have a workable theory before you try to prove it. :P
then please, post a picture of your god...
Ahh, I just got enlightened by Arch! There is a god exist, who is called Ranagol! Cheesy
(I've only found Hungarian documents about him, so I'm doing some translations Cheesy )
Ranagol is the goat-headed god, who came from an another dimension, to test out his theory. Basically, this whole universe is his test lab. He has the theory: Survival of the fittest! Only those can survive, who are among the best creatures. The followers of Ranagol must accept it: it doesn't matter, how do you reach your goal. If you have to eliminate someone, you can fight him openly, backstab him, poison him, make him get arrested: you decide. Your only goal is to survive. Even if it means, you have to accept lies. If pretending to be a peace loving, lawful Christian person will make you get further, then use it as you want."Do not kill, do not steal, do not decieve". These are nothing, but lies. "I don't want to be killed, I don't want to be robbed, I don't want to be decieved, so I protect myself with these lies I call justice and morals."
According to the Law of changes (Változások Törvénye) Ranagol only love those, who are never satisfied with their current positions, and always aim to be higher. Altough, you might make a step back, you can jump further later. Basically, these are what are found about Ranagol, and I found a quite stupid (?) webpage about him (www.ranagol.hu), what is totally empty...
Well, should we worship for him? Cheesy Don't forget, that it's not needed Cheesy
The world isn`t perfect, nor is humans, our ecosystem could have been very different from what we have...
Here's a question (actually several) I'd like to raise to everyone. A bit of food for thought, if you will.
* If you were an all-powerful god given a big empty universe and you could create anything at all you wanted in it (or nothing, if you so choose), what would you make? What would your universe look like?
* Would you make everything work together in perfect harmony? Would you make everything imperfect so you could sit back and watch what happens?
* Would you create mankind? If so, would you give them the power of choice, or would you dictate their actions and attitudes?
AND, why would a god-like "person" care for this tiny little planet orbiting this sun that is almost nothing in the universe...
Be ridiculous if you want, but there is a creator, science can prove it!lol what?
It already has actually. :P
Are you kidding, the Human body is perfect, it can walk, it has all these tiny little details that make it perfect, and when I say perfect, I don't mean perfection by the Borg's standard, but perfection by the standard of what it can do, and how reliable it is at what it does.Granted, the human body is pretty nifty. Perfect, though? Nah. If you want to accept the idea of "the universe is pretty awesome, so it seems to me that there is an intelligent creative force/entity behind it", then that's 100% A-okay for you to believe that. However, some people are never going to accept "the universe is pretty awesome" as proof.
You don't really expect me to know? ::)Like I said, food for thought. I just figure since people are debating what God/gods did or didn't do, then maybe we should think about what any of us would do in that position of ultimate power. It's a thought experiment directed at no particular person.
Ok, John, it's kinda clear that you haven't been listening. :|Seriously? I've been here reading every post in this thread since the beginning, taking pot shots at both sides any time somebody makes a lousy argument. I've most certainly been listening. It just so happens that lately you've been grasping at straws, so you've been my biggest target for the last couple pages. Instead of investing my time, effort, and especially money into seeing your propaganda, I'd like to see if you can formulate a decent argument on your own. So far, you haven't really done that.
Why don't you just check out that video I posted about eariler.
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 18:44:19
Ok, John, it's kinda clear that you haven't been listening. No Opinion
Why don't you just check out that video I posted about eariler.
Seriously? I've been here reading every post in this thread since the beginning, taking pot shots at both sides any time somebody makes a lousy argument. I've most certainly been listening. It just so happens that lately you've been grasping at straws, so you've been my biggest target for the last couple pages. Instead of investing my time, effort, and especially money into seeing your propaganda, I'd like to see if you can formulate a decent argument on your own. So far, you haven't really done that.
Fluffy, I am fed up with you!
You keep insisting on Evolution, which doesn't make any sense.
Evolutionists, insist upon believing in Evolution because they don't want to believe in a creator!
You don't want to believe in a Creator because, with a creator, there are moral and rules, and honor means something, without a creator, it doesn't matter, and you don't like to be restricted!
I am mad, simply because you are so ignorant of science, and logic. All the science and logic points to a creator!
The fact that you cannot see that pretty much explains why you believe in Evolution!
I am sick and tired of your ignorance. Angry
I think Gabbe is a great Evolutionist, even though his arguments are ridiculous, he's looking into the other point of view, which is the smart thing to do!
I've already looked into the Evolutionists point of view. It's ridiculous!
If you are an Evolutionist, than you believe in something out of nothing.
Evolutionists, insist upon believing in Evolution because they don't want to believe in a creator!
You don't want to believe in a Creator because, with a creator, there are moral and rules, and honor means something, without a creator, it doesn't matter, and you don't like to be restricted!
I think Gabbe is a great Evolutionist, even though his arguments are ridiculous, he's looking into the other point of view, which is the smart thing to do!
And you, the creationist insist upon believing in God, because you don't want to believe in the evolution!
But yeah, why should I restrict myself, if there aren't any god (at least I haven't seen any Smile ), who would punish us, if we don't follow his/her/their rules.
Creationism is the religion of the old times, the modern religions are science and democracy Tongue Cheesy
Do you guys want to keep it up, until a God registers and tells his/her opinion, or do you want to tease Arch a little bit more?
Buddy.
I know one thing for sure.
Evolution is impossible.
Go do the math!
Well, I believe he did. :P
I do believe in a God-like being...so yah a higher being of existance.
I just call him God.....well.....because, what else?
I believe, and know, that I am a soul, and that my body is not who I am.
I have literally experienced being out of my body. For about 1/4 of a second. :D
It felt........cool.
Funny how my Mom said she saw my soul before I was born.
She was able to describe the exact height that I had experienced, now I don't think that that is a coincidence, no matter how strange my mother is... :look:
(By the way, I heard Ranagol and Allah made a bet. Ranagol said, the humanity has 1,2% chance to be the last survivor race, but Allah bet it Cheesy wouldn't it be wonderful, to see which god will win the bet? Cheesy )
Hey, not all creationists believe the Bible is accurate. Roll Eyes
I do not go to church, I believe in a creator for scientific and logical reasons.
I do not believe in Evolution for scientific and logical reasons.
This topic was terribly named. Tongue
Evolutionists, insist upon believing in Evolution because they don't want to believe in a creator!
You don't want to believe in a Creator because, with a creator, there are moral and rules, and honor means something, without a creator, it doesn't matter, and you don't like to be restricted!
I find it funny, John, how your replies ask for evidence, when I'm waiting for you to look at the massive block I've already posted!
Be ridiculous if you want, but there is a creator, science can prove it!
It already has actually. Tongue
Ahh, I just got enlightened by Arch! There is a god exist, who is called Ranagol! Cheesy
(I've only found Hungarian documents about him, so I'm doing some translations Cheesy )
Ranagol is the goat-headed god, who came from an another dimension, to test out his theory. Basically, this whole universe is his test lab. He has the theory: Survival of the fittest! Only those can survive, who are among the best creatures. The followers of Ranagol must accept it: it doesn't matter, how do you reach your goal. If you have to eliminate someone, you can fight him openly, backstab him, poison him, make him get arrested: you decide. Your only goal is to survive. Even if it means, you have to accept lies. If pretending to be a peace loving, lawful Christian person will make you get further, then use it as you want."Do not kill, do not steal, do not decieve". These are nothing, but lies. "I don't want to be killed, I don't want to be robbed, I don't want to be decieved, so I protect myself with these lies I call justice and morals."
According to the Law of changes (Változások Törvénye) Ranagol only love those, who are never satisfied with their current positions, and always aim to be higher. Altough, you might make a step back, you can jump further later. Basically, these are what are found about Ranagol, and I found a quite stupid (?) webpage about him (www.ranagol.hu), what is totally empty...
Well, should we worship for him? Cheesy Don't forget, that it's not needed Cheesy
there must be a post were i say im she.....please, naviagte me, im HE! >:( >:(
we evolved how we did because the earths habitat was what it was...
i don't think i said she if so sorry i knew you were a HE
anyways yes its because of enviroment/habitat if we first evolted in the mountains we would have really strong legs and maybe more legs or more toes LOL or in grassland we propally run faster.. yet we have traits to do all that just not one better than the other
Humans were on the plains of Africa in the begining, then we evolved to have naked skin, wanna know the reason? because we wanted better sex, lol thats funny actually...
My english is terrible :-[its not that bad.... I bet mines worse when im not even trying
wouldn`t look the same, we would still be asians, white, black etc.
I bgelive the bible is nonscense, remember that the bible has been changed during the medieval times...
I bet all the paups/poups whatever made it fit so that christianity would "have the power to kill inocent non-belivers"
I believe the Bible is nonsense, remember that the Bible was changed during the medieval times...
I bet all the popes made it fit so that Christianity would "have the power to kill innocent non-believers"
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
I almost did believe Evolution once, but once I saw how Evolution cowers before science, and that science has got it's finger pointed at a creator, I just said, Evolution is crap, then once I found out about the mathematics behind Evolution, I laughed so hard, at the thought that anyone would believe such ridiculous thing! :Ohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule)
I know that everything you throw at me just won't do anything, I am rock solid in my believe in a creator!There's a word for that... hmm... what was it? Oh yeah, it's...
I've also read about how the definition of Evolution is always changingThat's called scientific progress. Maybe you should look into it. It's the same way our definition of the solar system is always changing. Some people have even gone so far as to not believe that Earth is the center of the universe! *gasp* :o NO WAY! ::)
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 08:12:12 PMWell that was just insanely good one :O
I almost did believe Evolution once, but once I saw how Evolution cowers before science, and that science has got it's finger pointed at a creator, I just said, Evolution is crap, then once I found out about the mathematics behind Evolution, I laughed so hard, at the thought that anyone would believe such ridiculous thing! Laughing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
Quote
I've also read about how the definition of Evolution is always changing
That's called scientific progress. Maybe you should look into it. It's the same way our definition of the solar system is always changing. Some people have even gone so far as to not believe that Earth is the center of the universe! *gasp* Shocked NO WAY! Roll Eyes
Quote
I know that everything you throw at me just won't do anything, I am rock solid in my believe in a creator!
There's a word for that... hmm... what was it? Oh yeah, it's...
(click to show/hide)
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 16:17:00
I almost did believe Evolution once, but once I saw how Evolution cowers before science, and that science has got it's finger pointed at a creator, I just said, Evolution is crap, then once I found out about the mathematics behind Evolution, I laughed so hard, at the thought that anyone would believe such ridiculous thing! Laughing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
Quote
Quote
I've also read about how the definition of Evolution is always changing
That's called scientific progress. Maybe you should look into it. It's the same way our definition of the solar system is always changing. Some people have even gone so far as to not believe that Earth is the center of the universe! *gasp* Shocked NO WAY! Roll Eyes
Sometimes i think that this is kinda what arch thinks about evolutionists, lemme add, evolution is science, evolution changes because we discover new things, creation however, is bullshit, and bullshit stays bullshit until the atoms transform..
I am the only Creationist in the debate that is equipped with firepower, but you aren't listening to me, which in fact, is typical of Evolutionists!Who's not listening?
Evolution is not science, it is a faith.Then... oh, why don't you show some science? The best you've done so far is posting that video from Ken Hovind (I think that was his name), whose best point was that maybe the universe isn't as old as we think it is. Fair enough, maybe the universe is a hundred years old for all I care. Even if you were to somehow conclusively prove that the universe is young, or that the math doesn't work out, or whatever holes you can punch in our current understanding of evolutionary theory, that still would do nothing to prove creation. Whether it happened or not, it is simply not a testable/provable phenomenon. Evolution is. We can see it happening on small scales (bacteria), and we can even make it happen on our own (dogs, corn, etc.).
Creation stands by science and it's sad that that isn't obvious to you.
BTW, John, that's not what I meant by "always changing", you terribly mis-understood.There's another definition for "always changing", other than "constantly becoming something different than what it just was a moment ago"? I was unaware. :P
Do you guys want to continue this debate?You seem to want to. You're the only one with anything to prove.
you others are just here to make fun of my point of view.Yeah, since "evolution is bullshit!" and "I don't know how you people believe this crap!" is totally not that. :look:
Evolution is not science, it is a faith.
Creation stands by science and it's sad that that isn't obvious to you.
I don't care if you think I'm being a coward, I'm just tired of this stupid body and tired of this debate. I'm done. I hate it.awww i don't think your a coward i ammire your still expressing your point even though your the only one here that believes the creation thing and against evolution and your doing a good job!
Be ridiculous if you want, but there is a creator, science can prove it!
It already has actually. :P
Buddy.
I know one thing for sure.
Evolution is impossible.
Go do the math!
You guys are ridiculous beyond bounds! :P
I am the only Creationist in the debate that is equipped with firepower, but you aren't listening to me, which in fact, is typical of Evolutionists!
I almost did believe Evolution once, but once I saw how Evolution cowers before science, and that science has got it's finger pointed at a creator, I just said, Evolution is crap, then once I found out about the mathematics behind Evolution, I laughed so hard, at the thought that anyone would believe such ridiculous thing! Laughing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule
Evolution is not science, it is a faith.
Creation stands by science and it's sad that that isn't obvious to you.
Gabbe is the only one that is really looking at my proof, you others are just here to make fun of my point of view.
Quote from: Arch
Gabbe is the only one that is really looking at my proof, you others are just here to make fun of my point of view.
Taking credit for intellectual work which isn't yours is called plagiarism.
Quote
I don't care if you think I'm being a coward, I'm just tired of this stupid body and tired of this debate. I'm done. I hate it.
awww i don't think your a coward i ammire your still expressing your point even though your the only one here that believes the creation thing and against evolution and your doing a good job!
It is rejected by the scientific community
is an argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally occurring chance mutations
It is one of two main arguments intended to support intelligent design, the other being specified complexity
Evolutionary biologists have shown that such systems can in fact evolve, and Behe's examples are considered to constitute an argument from ignorance.
The court found that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."
Nonetheless, irreducible complexity continues to be cited as an important argument by creationists, particularly intelligent design proponents.
A single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAnIoXPLMdo&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajcKn-qO3g8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsrmlST5sP4&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTAC3h6gbKw&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqSgr-Jladk&feature=related[/youtube]Actually, i want to say that evoltuion and creation are 2 different things, creation is how life began, evolution is how it changed, and i must say, there is no theory to compete with creation at the battlefield of well...creation...
The big problem for you though, is that Evolution is mathematically impossible.
The human body is not grand, if i understood the right meaning, like, good, perfect sumething like that, why is apes and human skeletons so similar, yet can`t mate?
You can't have random changes and expect to get improvements. Want me to give an example?
I'm just kinda curious why our digestive system is designed to process food,
why does our body know what to do with it
because random mutations and natural selection couldn't get anywhere close, and there is certainly no way Evolution could have a monkey turn into a man.
[img]http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/behavior/Spring2009/Foley/skull%20comparison.png[/img]The human brain is the center of the human nervous system and is a highly complex organ. Enclosed in the cranium, it has the same general structure as the brains of other mammals, but is over three times as large as the brain of a typical mammal with an equivalent body size.[1] Most of the expansion comes from the cerebral cortex, a convoluted layer of neural tissue that covers the surface of the forebrain. Especially expanded are the frontal lobes, which are involved in executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought. The portion of the brain devoted to vision is also greatly enlarged in human beings.[/tt]
Brain evolution, from the earliest shrewlike mammals through primates to hominids, is marked by a steady increase in encephalization, or the ratio of brain to body size. The human brain has been estimated to contain 50–100 billion (1011) neurons, of which about 10 billion (1010) are cortical pyramidal cells. These cells pass signals to each other via as many as 1000 trillion (1015) synaptic connections.[2]
The brain monitors and regulates the body's actions and reactions. It continuously receives sensory information, and rapidly analyzes this data and then responds, controlling bodily actions and functions. The brainstem controls breathing, heart rate, and other autonomic processes. The neocortex is the center of higher-order thinking, learning, and memory. The cerebellum is responsible for the body's balance, posture, and the coordination of movement.
In spite of the fact that it is protected by the thick bones of the skull, suspended in cerebrospinal fluid, and isolated from the bloodstream by the blood-brain barrier, the delicate nature of the human brain makes it susceptible to many types of damage and disease. The most common forms of physical damage are closed head injuries such as a blow to the head, a stroke, or poisoning by a wide variety of chemicals that can act as neurotoxins. Infection of the brain is rare because of the barriers that protect it, but is very serious when it occurs. The human brain is also susceptible to degenerative disorders, such as Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis, and Alzheimer's disease. A number of psychiatric conditions, such as schizophrenia and depression, are widely thought to be caused at least partially by brain dysfunctions, although the nature of such brain anomalies is not well understood.
Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat.[1][2] This process takes place over many generations,[3] and is one of the basic phenomena of biology.[4]
The term adaptation may also refer to a feature which is especially important for an organism's survival.[5] For example, the adaptation of horses' teeth to the grinding of grass, or their ability to run fast and escape predators. Such adaptations are produced in a variable population by the better suited forms reproducing more successfully, that is, by natural selection.
Strict creationists[12] believe that evolution cannot adequately account for the history, diversity, and complexity of life on Earth
Today[update], the Church's unofficial position is a fairly non-specific example of theistic evolution[citation needed], stating that faith and scientific findings regarding human evolution are not in conflict, though humans are regarded as a special creation, and that the existence of God is required to explain both monogenism and the spiritual component of human origins. No infallible declarations by the Pope or an Ecumenical Council have been made[citation needed].(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
the basis of christianity that there is a god is copeting with evolution, and catholics does just not want to decrease their numbers of "sheep" worshippers...
Evolutionists have found the truth, of coruse they attack christians who is demanding people to belive in them, or perish forever in hell!and really its like threatening them to beileve because they are afraid
Note: Not every evolutionary steps are random :|Exactly!!!
Note: Not every evolutionary steps are random No Opinion
Exactly!!!
and really its like threatening them to beileve because they are afraid
In the natural sciences, abiogenesis or biopoesis is the theory of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter. It should not be confused with evolution, which is the study of how groups of already living things change over time, or with cosmogony, which covers how the universe might have arisen.
In modern, still somewhat limited understanding, the first living things on Earth are thought to be single cell prokaryotes (which lack a cell nucleus), perhaps evolved from protobionts (organic molecules surrounded by a membrane-like structure).
I know what you should be questioning instead of evolution arch! Abigenesis!
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[url=http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ClosingArgument.pdf]http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ClosingArgument.pdf[/url]CREATIONISMS DOOM
Archs Creation theory has yet to get question, i have a loadpack to come, once he can disproove my belief of course...and then state his own theory; which he's been trying
Evolutionary concepts are now being used in engineering. In airplanes, for example, the computer will create random mutations in a design, and then throw out the ones that don't work. Now, any idiot (no criticism intended) knows that our designs today are not perfect and can thus be improved upon. With this in mind, we know that beneficial changes, or mutation, whether caused randomly or by an engineer will occur, and it is just a matter of time.Yes, I recall a documentary where they actually fed the computer with the bones and the muscles of an animal and the machine would then try to animate it. The first atempts of the computer always ended up with the animal flat on its face. But after hundreds of thousands (if I recall the order correctly) of attempts, the computer would actually get it right and even provide the value for the animal's top speed. 8)
I would like for this topic to be split into different ones. I'll make a new, more specific one dealing with the science of evolution. It will be strictly limited to evolution.Sounds good. :)
And the really good question: why is He a "He" and not a "She"?! :PGod created man in his own image. Eve was made from his rib. Oh well, sorry feminists... ;)
God created man in his own image. Eve was made from his rib. Oh well, sorry feminists.
If you guys want to have your ridiculous belief you have it.
Hopefully that quote is less than 300 characters (or whatever the limit is) because I'm going to put it in my signature. :)So you enjoy being intentionally offensive? Figures.
My point is that the only reason to put it as your signature is to piss people off.
It's like pointing out that Muhammed was a pedophile; it may be true but it's not a constructive argument.
I'd counter some of the points in the quote, but my motivation tank is running on 'E' right now.Does that mean your motivation is high or low? :confused:
E for empty meaning it's lowI'd counter some of the points in the quote, but my motivation tank is running on 'E' right now.Does that mean your motivation is high or low? :confused:
Ancient human society was male-dominated, and so it would not have served the writers of Genesis well to make women more powerful, because this would make them lose power. If y'all haven't figured it out already, religion is all about power.I figured it out thats why I don't like Religion (ha i don't even know how to spell it I had to look at the word)
Yeah "WE" created man from our image thats why we don't know if he exist or not or he doesn't have to be a human it could as well be something else like umm a animal like a ... very smart monkey like the ones in Planet of the Apes :)And the really good question: why is He a "He" and not a "She"?! :PGod created man in his own image. Eve was made from his rib. Oh well, sorry feminists... ;)
A lot of people interpret the Bible as being sexist, but I disagree. Just because women and men are put in different roles in the Bible doesn't mean that one is superior or more important than the other. If the man is the head of the household, then the woman is the heart. The man does what he does (hunting, earning a wage, whatever) to provide for his wife so she can do what she does (cooking, raising children, etc.), but the man depends just as much on his wife for care and support as she depends on him. I think we've taken what is supposed to be a partnership, and turned it into a competition. Personally, I think we need more women who are willing to stay home instead of working, and that's not because they're less capable or anything (my mom has worked her ass off since I was a little kid), but rather because we need to take motherhood seriously. Mothers are there to teach children to be valuable members of society, to teach them morals, ethics, and important life lessons. Ask any psychologist about the importance of having a good relationship with your mother, and look at the statistics about how many people in prison come from broken homes where their fathers left and their mothers had to work all the time. The fact that we say the woman's role is lower than the man's just shows how little we value motherhood.
Im not sure what to say since I am a female. I just think women should have the same oportunities as men......
It would be sexist if it said one sex was better than the other, but all it does is say that they're different. It's pretty obvious that men and women are different, and they're naturally good at different things. Women are equipped with things like mammary glands, all of the organs needed during pregnancy, and brain chemistry that's more prone for social interaction and makes them better at sending and receiving nonverbal communication, which are all the things needed to be excellent nurturers and caregivers, whereas men are on average bigger, stronger, faster, and have brains that are good at spacial differentiation (i.e. spotting prey and aiming better) and a better direction sense, which are all the things you need to be a good hunter, warrior, or manual laborer.
From a Biblical perspective, a man doesn't get to stay home and take care of the kids any more than a woman gets to go out and fight wars. Each has their own role, and they're meant to stick to it because it's what they're best at. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have choices. I think everybody should have their own choice as to their own occupation. I just think that motherhood is in no way a lesser role than a paying career, but people see it that way and that's why they think the Bible is sexist. On top of that, women have a ton of important roles in the Bible, including typically masculine roles. Let's use Deborah as an example. She straight-up kicked some Canaanite ass (http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/religion/2008/01/25/as-a-military-leader-deborah-is-a-rare-biblical-character.html).
You convinced me, until i get to read the bible one more tiem to find a counter argument.I like that about you, Gabriel. You're actually willing to consider other points of view, instead of the typical, "I don't have an answer for that just yet, BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE STILL WRONG!" kind of response we see around here. :O
Sound Good I agree to that and I never/will read the bible so I wouldn't know whats right or wrong but sounds good to me!You convinced me, until i get to read the bible one more tiem to find a counter argument.I like that about you, Gabriel. You're actually willing to consider other points of view, instead of the typical, "I don't have an answer for that just yet, BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE STILL WRONG!" kind of response we see around here. :O
Fun and i appreciate that :)You convinced me, until i get to read the bible one more tiem to find a counter argument.I like that about you, Gabriel. You're actually willing to consider other points of view, instead of the typical, "I don't have an answer for that just yet, BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE STILL WRONG!" kind of response we see around here. :O
Are you lazy? :D then i`ll read it for you lolz 8)Sound Good I agree to that and I never/will read the bible so I wouldn't know whats right or wrong but sounds good to me!You convinced me, until i get to read the bible one more tiem to find a counter argument.I like that about you, Gabriel. You're actually willing to consider other points of view, instead of the typical, "I don't have an answer for that just yet, BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE STILL WRONG!" kind of response we see around here. :O
Are you lazy? :D then i`ll read it for you lolz 8)
QuoteAre you lazy? :D then i`ll read it for you lolz 8)
Lol Im not lazy I just don't see any point in reading it anyways theres just so many bibles out there and if i don't have a religion then i see no point (wow im repeating myself alot) 8)
you really should read it, then make up your mind if it is worth belive in, i consider the truth way more important than "maybe"I'm inclined to agree that it's better to actually check it out and see if it's something worth believing, rather than just dismissing it without knowing what was in it, but it is a lot of reading, and some of it is very drawn-out. The entire book of Numbers is basically... well... counting things. In fact, it seems to me like most of the Old Testament (i.e. the stuff that happens before Jesus) is more of a history lesson than a spiritual one. I think your best bet, if you wanted to get a good idea of what Christianity is all about, would be to read the gospel of John and the book of Exodus. There are some more modern translations that are much easier to read, like NIV or "The Message", rather than wading through the "thee"s and "hitherto"s.
Are there any christians out there willing to debate with me?Hmm... I'm not quite sure how to answer that, honestly. I used to consider myself a Christian without any hesitation, but now I'm not sure what to call myself. I mean, I think the Bible has a lot of really good and worthwhile stuff in it, but I just don't know how much of it I actually believe. I guess you could say I'm half-Christian and half-agnostic because I just don't know anymore. :-\
I mean, I think the Bible has a lot of really good and worthwhile stuff in it, but I just don't know how much of it I actually believe.
So true, and i just got back after going to church for 1,5 hours and you know what? i said i was Atheist, i got kicked..Because religion is power and they will hate all people who don't believe what they believe......
Quote from: Gabriel, Gabbe on Today at 07:57:04
So true, and i just got back after going to church for 1,5 hours and you know what? i said i was Atheist, i got kicked..
Because religion is power and they will hate all people who don't believe what they believe......
Funny is, that all priests talk about their followers as sheeps...And they are the leaders...The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Lol Im not lazy I just don't see any point in reading it anyways theres just so many bibles out there and if i don't have a religion then i see no point (wow im repeating myself alot) 8)Actually, there is only ONE bible, however, the bible is a collection of NUMEROUS books, and none are actually written in english. Most are ancient greek, hebrew, or latin. Therefore, there is a number of translations, etc that have different wording and sentence structure, however, they all tell the same story. Some versions of the bible were compiled for certain reasons and include/skip certain books.
I wouldn't have known; but now I know, there is only one book in different languages.... thanks :)
Bearing in mind that the bible is not a single book, but a collection of books, letters, and gospels.
look there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.
The problem is that they don't follow what they supposedly believe. If every Christian followed the Bible and every Muslim followed the Koran, the world would be a better place. Instead, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their behavior, and that's never a good thing. Nearly all major religions have the same basic tenants (be kind to each other, help people who need it, be honest, be generous, etc.), but instead of focusing on the greater good, they bicker about pointless crap that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Same-sex marriage is a great example. People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side. Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?Quotelook there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.
Yes, they call themselves what they cannot be. No christian will ever go to heaven because there are no other than Jesus who lived as all humans should according to the bible.
I think I'm scared afghanistan is another Vietnam war in the making, unless we find a quick solution it will deteriorate into a slow bloody defeat,They will not defeat it. Almost every major general agrees to that point. While there is an ongoing NATO offensive at the moment, the main plan is to train their police forces. Of course, the states DID try that for vietnam (and we all know what happened there), but I expect better here. This isn't USA's solo battle, but the whole of NATO, including Canada (*roaring applause*), UK, USA, etc, etc;
Same-sex marriage is a great example. People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side. Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that. Yes, health care is a better thing to spend it on, but in USA, seeing your president's current approach (I'm estimating by the end of his term, USA will hit 15 Trillion in debt), that's not a very smart idea. Education is a must. If I recall correctly, you americans don't pay your teachers well enough (I want to be a teacher). Here in Canada, an expected 55-60k/year is average for elementary/secondary teachers. That's enough for me! ;)
Like John said in his last post, people use religion to 'justify' their attacks. NOWHERE in ANY holy book, may it be the bible or any other book, or even in unwritten teachings does it state that violence is a good thing. Virtually all modern religions have a variation of the golden rule (Thou shall do unto others what they would have others do unto you). ALL religions teach peace and prosperity.
I actually support the war in Afghanistan because I believe that everywhere deserves complete (not totally lawless complete, but similar to Canada [Not USA though, with its president and his 'Health Plan']) freedom. This includes freedom from terrorist organizations like the Taliban. You notice that NATO forces do NOT kill civilians, contrasted to terrorists, who will happily kill a stranger off the street for no reason. The ability to live life without constant fear that someone will murder you in the street (or that a plan will fall from the sky and hit you) is a basic human need. I believe everyone has the right to live according to the universal declaration of human rights.
I will NOT deny that the [Catholic] Church had committed atrocities in the past, notably the refusal to admit the world is round and the burning of 'Witches' at the stake. However, I believe people learn from their mistakes (eventually) and that shows the errors of MAN, not god. The church is simply a method of worshipping god. It is not god, it is not needed to learn more of god, nor to find the path to goodness. Man is in decision of his own fate, he can choose whether or not to follow god and his laws (the world will certainly be more peaceful if you do, though don't make the church's mistake with taking things too literally.
Quote from: wyvern on April 21, 2010, 07:09:09 PM
I think I'm scared afghanistan is another Vietnam war in the making, unless we find a quick solution it will deteriorate into a slow bloody defeat,
They will not defeat it. Almost every major general agrees to that point. While there is an ongoing NATO offensive at the moment, the main plan is to train their police forces. Of course, the states DID try that for vietnam (and we all know what happened there), but I expect better here. This isn't USA's solo battle, but the whole of NATO, including Canada (*roaring applause*), UK, USA, etc, etc;
Quote from: John.d.h on April 21, 2010, 09:49:20 PM
Same-sex marriage is a great example. People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side. Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?
BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that. Yes, health care is a better thing to spend it on, but in USA, seeing your president's current approach (I'm estimating by the end of his term, USA will hit 15 Trillion in debt), that's not a very smart idea. Education is a must. If I recall correctly, you americans don't pay your teachers well enough (I want to be a teacher). Here in Canada, an expected 55-60k/year is average for elementary/secondary teachers. That's enough for me! Wink
'The problem is that they don't follow what they supposedly believe. If every Christian followed the Bible and every Muslim followed the Koran, the world would be a better place. Instead, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their behavior, and that's never a good thing. Nearly all major religions have the same basic tenants (be kind to each other, help people who need it, be honest, be generous, etc.), but instead of focusing on the greater good, they bicker about pointless crap that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Same-sex marriage is a great example. People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side. Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?Quotelook there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.
Yes, they call themselves what they cannot be. No christian will ever go to heaven because there are no other than Jesus who lived as all humans should according to the bible.
BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that.You can't stop them from doing anything. If two men or two women (or two men, three women [two of whom are sisters], and a bulldog) desire to do so, you can't keep them from meeting, dating, having a wedding with a big cake and all their family and friends, having sex, adopting children (or using surrogates, whatever), and so on. They can live their lives and do every single other thing that a traditional heterosexual couple does, and there's not a darn thing you can do to stop that. I think a lot of people don't realize it, but the thing they're actually fighting over is whether or not the government recognizes their marriage as "official" in a document in some government archive. If I get married some day, regardless of whether it is to a man or woman, no amount of government recognition is going make my marriage any more or less real. I'm not saying that I'm for same-sex marriage and I'm not saying that I'm against it. I'm saying that it doesn't actually matter because what's being fought over isn't what people on either side of the debate think it is. If I had to sit down and hammer out a list of the top 100 issues people should be pouring their money and effort into, whether or not somebody's name gets put on a marriage license wouldn't even come close to appearing on that list.
Thats around 60000 NOK, 60,000?!? how in the hell!?! thats very small amount! My mom is a teacher and she earn like 60 000 0 NOK EACH YEAR, thats 10 times yours!I think we have a currency problem here... :O I'm talking about Canadian dollars (which google says is 1USD=0.998302885CND, or virtually equal). Compared to american averages of 33-50k, thats much better. I dunno what NOK is...
Omega, you are looking the thing upside down: you said "Arabian countries are not free, because they have terrorists", but the truth is that "Arabian countries have terrorists, because they are not free".
I believe everyone has the right to live according to the universal declaration of human rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/).
Like John said in his last post, people use religion to 'justify' their attacks. NOWHERE in ANY holy book, may it be the bible or any other book, or even in unwritten teachings does it state that violence is a good thing.
I will NOT deny that the [Catholic] Church had committed atrocities in the past, notably the refusal to admit the world is round and the burning of 'Witches' at the stake.
Same-sex marriage is a great example. People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side. Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that.
COncerning violence in the Bible, (or at least the OT) there is plenty, but one must remember this takes place thousands of years ago, where opinions of war and piece were different. You notice zion is destroyed and rebuilt numerous times as a result :P.
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."A passage promoting violence in one situation doesn't necessarily condone violence in others. Of course, some people might take it that way, but that's a flaw with the reader. A lot of religions had to fight against persecution, and Islam is no exception. Militant Muslims just seem to have the idea that murdering non-combatants is somehow fighting for their freedom.
Consider a hypothetical situation in which I am a Muslim living in basically a refugee camp in Israel. In what way should I interpret this verse, which I consider to be the absolute truth from the word of Allah, to guide my actions?
Additionally, I don't think that most people know what the penalty God declared for violation of any of the Ten Commandments. The penalty is death.Uh... duh. :P Pretty sure that is common knowledge, at least among Christians. It's actually pretty central, as it's the only way the crucifixion makes sense because "the wage of sin is death". The whole point is that the entire human race is corrupt and wicked (You didn't need a book to tell you that, did you?) and no matter how good you think you are, your righteousness is like filthy rags. The understanding in the text is that they're referring to used menstrual rags, which are the single filthiest thing imaginable to a Jewish man in the first century AD. So basically, you deserve to die and so do I, and so did Moses, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, and Mother Teresa. From a Biblical perspective, the only person who ever lived who didn't deserve to die was Jesus Christ because he never had sin in his life, which ironically got him killed.
And we haven't even considered the Great Flood, which is, shall we say, less than credible. But drowning everyone, even all children?There's archaeological evidence supporting the great flood, and what's wrong with God drowning some people? (see below)
Right. I hold the opinion that, even though not all Arabs would promote it, violence and terrorism have become accepted. This is because there is a very radical "fringe" of Muslims, and the religious moderates, who are not necessarily willing to kill or die for Islam, are very quiet. Deathly quiet.If you were a Muslim and you knew people (possibly your relatives) who were cutting the heads off of people who spoke out against militant radical Islam, would you be so eager to speak out against it yourself?
The clergy abuse of children (their minds as well) is currently being uncovered. Actually, 200 deaf children were apparently molested by a priest less than a half-hour from my city. I'm not particularly charmed right now by the Church's acts of "piety".What does that have to do with the Bible, though? In fact, I'm pretty sure that'd condemned in many ways. Then again, Catholicism has never particularly cared what the Bible says. :look:
What if the homosexuals declared it to be part of their religion and considered doing "that" with their partner to be part of their faith? In America, the religious Right considers religious freedom to be even higher up there than the Second Amendment (and that's saying something).Well, considering a great many of the people who came over here in the first place were fleeing religious persecution in Europe, religious freedom is basically our purpose as a nation.
Anyways, I never really understood why two consenting adults can't do what they want in the privacy of their home (it's not directly harming anyone); I feel that it's their own business. I mean, at least with abortion they at least have a case that they are advocating for another human being.That's basically how I feel. Laws exist to protect people, so if the action isn't harming anyone, then who are they protecting by prohibiting it? My opinion is that the government should do what it has to do ensure the well-being of its citizens, and GTFO of our business in all other cases. We have laws against murder, rape, theft, fraud, etc., because those are acts that hurt people. Some sexual laws are meant to protect people, like age of consent, but the prohibition of same-sex marriage is not one of them.
Also John, things are being accomplished, but the Right is very powerful as soon as they declare their policies to be God's will.Well of course it's going to happen eventually. Politics in this country lean more and more to the left over time, and AFAIK everywhere in Europe and most of the industrialized world has legalized it, so it's only a matter of time before the US caves in.
Probably the quickest way you can get them to stop thinking IMHO. 8)You might be interested to read up on the Elaboration Likelihood Model.
What exactly are you trying to say, that we should look at the social context to determine whether the acts are moral? This is akin to populism, or maybe saying slavery was "OK" 200 years ago, because "everyone was doing it".Context does affect morality. That's why killing people in self-defense is not considered murder by the vast majority of people. I think if you're in a world where nations and tribes live under the constant threat of invasion, rape, murder, and pillaging and your only method of survival is to kill them before they kill you, it's a very different moral landscape.
And not all of these bad acts were complete works of man, either. Sometimes, God commanded the Israelites to slaughter various nations. Jericho is a good example: is it that much different than Hitler's Lebensraum? Just 'cause you want it doesn't automatically make it yours.There's a difference between God slaughtering a nation, and a mortal dictator rounding up a group of people and killing them. In God's case, it's because the nation is a blight upon the world and deserves to be destroyed, and in the mortal case, it's because the dictator thinks they're a blight upon the world and deserve to be destroyed. The difference here is that God is qualified to make that judgment because, in the Biblical context, God knows everything and always makes the right call. In the case of incidents like Jericho, the Israelites were just a method of extermination, just like the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were a method.
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."A passage promoting violence in one situation doesn't necessarily condone violence in others. Of course, some people might take it that way, but that's a flaw with the reader. A lot of religions had to fight against persecution, and Islam is no exception. Militant Muslims just seem to have the idea that murdering non-combatants is somehow fighting for their freedom.
Consider a hypothetical situation in which I am a Muslim living in basically a refugee camp in Israel. In what way should I interpret this verse, which I consider to be the absolute truth from the word of Allah, to guide my actions?
QuoteAdditionally, I don't think that most people know what the penalty God declared for violation of any of the Ten Commandments. The penalty is death.Uh... duh. :P Pretty sure that is common knowledge, at least among Christians.QuoteAnd we haven't even considered the Great Flood, which is, shall we say, less than credible. But drowning everyone, even all children?There's archaeological evidence supporting the great flood, and what's wrong with God drowning some people?
How about the fact that it is impossible to cover the Earth in water?
And what about the plants? They would have drowned underwater. Putting them on the Ark would have risked them getting eaten (not to mention that there is no mention of plants being uprooted to take on the ark).
And how did Noah get indigenous animals onto the Ark, like polar bears? Of course, Noah would have had to drop them off afterwords too...
There are tons of other problems too:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)QuoteRight. I hold the opinion that, even though not all Arabs would promote it, violence and terrorism have become accepted. This is because there is a very radical "fringe" of Muslims, and the religious moderates, who are not necessarily willing to kill or die for Islam, are very quiet. Deathly qhttp://expertgoat.com/nppxjoj.php?Oa2cjj9qhvNqI2JJnquSLg=f4A8qxkZWV%2FRXLGXTfPNWyPRIJmluGnVPRldhoGxqCn8bVq8EomOdXSZyaGU73Yfuiet.If you were a Muslim and you knew people (possibly your relatives) who were cutting the heads off of people who spoke out against militant radical Islam, would you be so eager to speak out against it yourself?
In America, this is not happening. In Saudi Arabia maybe, but American Muslim moderates should be speaking out.QuoteAnd not all of these bad acts were complete works of man, either. Sometimes, God commanded the Israelites to slaughter various nations. Jericho is a good example: is it that much different than Hitler's Lebensraum? Just 'cause you want it doesn't automatically make it yours.There's a difference between God slaughtering a nation, and a mortal dictator rounding up a group of people and killing them. In God's case, it's because the nation is a blight upon the world and deserves to be destroyed, and in the mortal case, it's because the dictator thinks they're a blight upon the world and deserve to be destroyed. The difference here is that God is qualified to make that judgment because, in the Biblical context, God knows everything and always makes the right call. In the case of incidents like Jericho, the Israelites were just a method of extermination, just like the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were a method.
If it's wrong for a dictator to try to annihilate a people, what makes God's immorality better?
So you think that the way an animal acts writes it's genome?
You're funny, but I seriously hope you don't believe that.
You also have yet to prove that there isn't a soul, or a spirit or whatever you want to call it.
Prove there's no soul? Uh... that's not how science works. If you want to say that something exists, you have to prove it does... not the other way around. What makes you think a soul exists? Science has nothing to suggest that it does, and some religions agree (including Christianity according to some interpretations).
Arch, what do you think about those, who were driven to insanity? What happened to their so called "souls"?
Prove there's no soul? Uh... that's not how science works. If you want to say that something exists, you have to prove it does... not the other way around. What makes you think a soul exists? Science has nothing to suggest that it does, and some religions agree (including Christianity according to some interpretations).
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 26, 2010, 09:17:47
So you think that the way an animal acts writes it's genome?
No, but it [the environment] is crucial in the trial and error process that is natural selection.
Basically saying you're laughing at someone's best attempt at anything is mean.
Honestly, the term soul is IMO something from a long time ago when people had no idea where thoughts came from.
Exactly. If you're going to ask science to prove or disprove something, provide evidence.
Also, come up with a hypothesis.
Where is this information stored (the information about your personality and your memory), and how exactly does it make decisions?
Quote
Where is this information stored (the information about your personality and your memory), and how exactly does it make decisions?
How the hell am I supposed to figure that out?! Look
We're talking about stuff that may be well beyond Human comprehension..... No Opinion
wow so many posts to read.... I can't and won't; you changed topics so much what exactly are we talking about? :scared:lol Who knows anymore? I think right now we're discussing whether or not there exists such a thing as a soul.
You can't see a soul. It is a fasinating part of the body (or not) that exists only through faith. When you die, the soul lives on (can't say the same for the ol' bod though). ;)
Omega, belief in a soul requires no faith, logically the way we are able to choose and do things points to something behind the brain(something much more powerful), I believe the brain is just a tool for the soul to use the body(or something like that :P). :thumbup:
QuoteArch, what do you think about those, who were driven to insanity? What happened to their so called "souls"?Your brain gets screwed up, and you can't use it properly. :|
And I'm kinda being a little tough and mean, just so you guys get a glimpse of Evolutionary morals.
QuoteExactly. If you're going to ask science to prove or disprove something, provide evidence.
The fact that we have a will points to a 'spirit thingy'.
Has anyone programmed a robot to do things and then do something that it's not exactly "supposed" to do?
How the hell am I supposed to figure that out?! :look:
We're talking about stuff that may be well beyond Human comprehension.
My opinion about free will is that it is impossible to tell if there is free will or not. We live in reality, and determinism and free will are both descriptors of reality. To test either would require that one leave reality, which is impossible.
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 27, 2010, 08:20:44
Quote
Arch, what do you think about those, who were driven to insanity? What happened to their so called "souls"?
Your brain gets screwed up, and you can't use it properly. No Opinion
1. Assumptions There are souls, and they drive decision making. Alcohol also can drive decision making.
2. If souls make decisions, the brain does not.
3. People driven to insanity will make bad decisions.
4. Their soul is causing them to do make bad decisions.
5. Alcohol can also cause people to make bad decisions.
6. Alcohol can effect the soul, but not the brain.
7. But alcohol can damage the brain temporarily. It "dilates the channels in the cellular structure that regulates the flow of calcium. More calcium than normal flows into the cells and stimulates increased activity. Somehow this abnormal "turning on" of activity causes a loss of the end segments but does not kill the whole cell. Losing the end segments, however, means losing incoming messages, which disrupts brain function".
http://www.wonderquest.com/BrainCells.htm
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 27, 2010, 08:20:44
And I'm kinda being a little tough and mean, just so you guys get a glimpse of Evolutionary morals.
I thought you didn't believe in it? Or are you just justifying your insult with an intellectual one (you understand so little that you don't even know why you're wrong). Also, I thought you weren't going to mention evolution until you read up on it (which you quite obviously have not).
Sounds to me like you've been spoon-fed something from the far-Right. I would suggest picking up some literature whose writers are intellectually accountable for their words and who do not have a built-in audience. I mean, if someone is supporting evolution but their work is demonstrably false, they will get critical reception from the scientific community in the same way ID does.
For example, the quote in your signature is actually mined from a letter to Asa Gray. You can read the full letter in my signature. I generally feel those in the wrong have something to hide, and so I try not to. This is why you can read the full letter from the link in my signature.
Quote mining is an example of the type of intellectual dishonesty not tolerated within the intellectual community (from which Creationists are often booted). It might be a type of plagiarism, is it?
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 27, 2010, 08:20:44
Quote
Exactly. If you're going to ask science to prove or disprove something, provide evidence.
The fact that we have a will points to a 'spirit thingy'.
Has anyone programmed a robot to do things and then do something that it's not exactly "supposed" to do?
So our inability to program robots which are as complex as humans' after only 50 years of microcircuitry is supposed to prove the existence of something thought up long before? So...I suppose philosophers were waiting for the transistor so that they could finally prove the existence of free will (which does not point to a soul anyways)? Sorry Epicurus! Wrong era to be born in!
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 27, 2010, 08:20:44
How the hell am I supposed to figure that out?! Look
We're talking about stuff that may be well beyond Human comprehension.
Once again, the joke's not on me, it's on you. Your inability to even understand the basic principles of a system which you cannot demonstrate objectively or produce sensually but are utterly convinced to be true is a bit...telling.
Quote from: Sir modman on January 05, 2010, 01:04:39
My opinion about free will is that it is impossible to tell if there is free will or not. We live in reality, and determinism and free will are both descriptors of reality. To test either would require that one leave reality, which is impossible.
Since I never got a reply before, I would like one now.
Should I start a new topic for Free Will vs. Determinism? It is not related to souls (in the sense that neither philosophy inhibits the existence of a soul).
I just know enough about it
what charles darwin did to black people
I have read about the core of the whole theory
The so-called "scientific community" are a bunch of dodos, all the people that talk about shots, well they're in the scientific community, shots are terrible, Global Warming is so obviously false, but let's not get into that. Generic scientists don't mean much to me any more, most of them are a bunch of geniuses being paid to lie.
I have it pretty clear in my mind, but I have trouble expressing it in words, especially to you, because it has to sound good, otherwise you act like a 1200's flat earth believer.
Is there anything in my genome that told me to eat some chocolate banana bread?
Modman, it points to something more, not exactly a soul, but definitely something more, and considering all the things my Mom has done in Spirituality(walking on fire, watching tables float, talking to spirits, and somehow each of us knew my souls height, and I myself have experienced being out of my body, I mean, ask her and she could list tons more stuff!).
walking on fire, watching tables float, talking to spirits, and somehow each of us knew my souls height, and I myself have experienced being out of my body, I mean, ask her and she could list tons more stuff!
Jesus has stepped on the water, and walked on it. His followers tried to follow him, but they sank into the water. One of Jesus' student shouts after him:
- Hey, you should have showed them the stakes before!
Quote
what charles darwin did to black people
Was he racist? :0
just because of that doesn`t mean his science was wrong. (his science about evolution, but did you know, black people in the us have 80 points white have 100 points and asian have 120? it was from some tests, but it may be ethnical, though, i have met many black people, and some are smart as hell, but more is so dumb i sometiems want to laugh at them.)
Quote
I have read about the core of the whole theory
Ah, youve read about the core, mind checking on the sub-theories?
The core of your belief, A god-like being created us.
How supportable?
Quote
The so-called "scientific community" are a bunch of dodos, all the people that talk about shots, well they're in the scientific community, shots are terrible, Global Warming is so obviously false, but let's not get into that. Generic scientists don't mean much to me any more, most of them are a bunch of geniuses being paid to lie.
So, basically what youre saying is that the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY is not scince, but regular people like you, with no knowledge, no tests, no results, no observations, no achievements, basically nothing, is not science?
Quote
Is there anything in my genome that told me to eat some chocolate banana bread?
Hormones perhaps, aha, your brain may have told you.
Quote
Modman, it points to something more, not exactly a soul, but definitely something more, and considering all the things my Mom has done in Spirituality(walking on fire, watching tables float, talking to spirits, and somehow each of us knew my souls height, and I myself have experienced being out of my body, I mean, ask her and she could list tons more stuff!).
I can make up a worser lie than that, just as you know, askign someone and getting an answer is not enough, especially not someone that has no backup, the soul cannot be seen, therefore not prooved, nor disprooved, it is kinda troublesome, cause how did we come up with a soul in the first place, and YOU HAVET YET TO DISPROOVE THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, or rather, can you? my proof is like this: I am right, your wrong, thats it
There is usually something wrong with people using these as facts:
Quote
walking on fire, watching tables float, talking to spirits, and somehow each of us knew my souls height, and I myself have experienced being out of my body, I mean, ask her and she could list tons more stuff!
Jesus has stepped on the water, and walked on it. His followers tried to follow him, but they sank into the water. One of Jesus' student shouts after him:
- Hey, you should have showed them the stakes before!
Typical of you evolutionists, making fun of anything relating to god and jesus. Thumb Down
You believe in a random processI can belive in a creator, but we did evolve.
I don't need to look at the sub-theories, they are all branches of the core.
You don't want to believe it, because you don't think science can prove it.
Why don't you just go see someone walk on fire, it's done all over the place as far as I know, just because a bunch of scientists say something isn't possible doesn't mean they're right, scientists get payed to say things all the time. Tongue
As I stated, brain goes bonkers, and it's hard to use.Of course I can read what I quote. But your answer was inadequate because you didn't point out what was wrong with my logic. Below we will see it is you who is impressed with his ability to read 25 pages in a book.
Could you read what you quote?
No, I don't believe in Evolution, I just know enough about it, and all the atrocities it has caused, what charles darwin did to black people and a lot more.First, Charles Darwin did nothing to black people. Interestingly, he published his theory just about the time that slavery was being fought over in the US. Southern slave owners were some of the strongest Christians in all of America at the time, and they were able to support their cause with the Bible.
Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being.High standards (like the Ten Commandments, impossibly so), but maybe St. Paul should have taken some notes.
With a theory like Evolution proof just doesn't matter.A scientific theory stands only on it's ability to explain and predict reality. So to the theory it doesn't really matter how Einstein, Newton, or Darwin behaved.
The so-called "scientific community" are a bunch of dodos, all the people that talk about shots, well they're in the scientific community, shots are terrible, Global Warming is so obviously false, but let's not get into that. Generic scientists don't mean much to me any more, most of them are a bunch of geniuses being paid to lie.Shots? Oh, you mean like smallpox vaccines that save millions of lives each year? Yup, it's all a damn conspiracy.
The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans per year during the closing years of the 18th century (including five monarchs), and was responsible for a third of all blindness. Of all those infected, 20–60%—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease.
I've read the first 25 pages of a book by John Sarfatti, Dawkins is an idiot, he's got quotes and everything, Dawkins is worse than Darwin!You do realize you've just committed a major ad hominem right? This is what I should expect from someone who cannot be bothered by evidence yet is convinced his position is true after reading 25 pages from a book. Not to mention habitually bad grammar (the period key is next to the comma).
I didn't know the source of that quote.Which means you’re letting other people do your thinking for you, and then trying to take credit for it. The problem for creationists is that there is so little information that they can use. They have few arguments, whose rebuttals are easily mastered, and they all tend to quote mine the same stuff.
Sorry complexity doesn't go beyond the logic of the universe, no matter how complex the robot, it's only going to follow it's commands.The opinion that it is impossible to create free will from complexity is not a law of the universe. Additionally, by what authority can you say that humans can never create robots with free will?
Is there anything in my genome that told me to eat some chocolate banana bread?Well, once you’ve ate it, who is to say that you weren’t destined to eat it from day one? Unpredictability cannot necessarily be shown to be free will.
I have it pretty clear in my mind, but I have trouble expressing it in words, especially to you, because it has to sound good, otherwise you act like a 1200's flat earth believer.Translation: “I’m convinced I’m right but there is no evidence to back my position”.
I can tell Free Will from Determinism easily, what the hell is wrong with you?Nothing is wrong with me, or anyone else who disagrees with you.
Yes he was racist, and his motives were anti-god.Not all Christians disagree with Darwin. For example, the Catholic Church, the largest religious denomination the world has ever known. Obviously the Pope’s motives were also anti-God too.
My theory is fully supportable! You believe in a random process, I believe in a creator. In that one sentence creation clearly sounds like the logical way we got here, look at a tree, random mutations I think not.Blanket claim, strawman, appeal to common sense. You can’t honestly consider that an argument.
Well, I think it's kinda funny that she walked on fire then.Me too. And so would every other rational person, because in a debate you cannot just claim a supernatural experience and expect people to agree with you. Remind me, how does fire-walking prove souls?
And saying that you can't see it so you can't prove it, is like saying you can't see air so you can't proove it, following a simple path of logic will tell you that there is some substance floating around which you breathe.Strawman. No one is so silly as to say that there is no air. Light a match. You can’t do that in a vacuum.
Typical of you evolutionists, making fun of anything relating to god and jesus.If it weren’t so ridiculous it wouldn’t be laughable. Every religion makes supernatural claims. Followers of every major religion claim to have supernatural experiences, yet you seem to think you are in a position to pronounce that yours is the only “correct” religion.
As compelling as your supernatural experiences may be for you, 1.) asking someone else to believe that they happened, and 2.) asserting that they prove the existence of a soul or divine being, are both pretty invalid arguments unless you can back them up. I believe I've had a spiritual/supernatural experience, but I'm not going to bother saying what it is for both of those reasons. The believers will say "yep, that's God", and the non-believers will say "nope, that's your brain", and then we're back at square one.
The believers will say "yep, that's God", and the non-believers will say "nope, that's your brain", and then we're back at square one.But what was there to gain anyways? One group has so much substantiation to do (and realistically will probably not accept defeat anyways), while the other will continue to produce scientists who run tests to actually find out what the reality is.
Modman, I am not going to argue about religion.a cell reproduces itself after half an hour...
You believe in random mutations and then the bad ones die out, I believe in a creator.
I believe in a creator because the human body is so complex.
I think everything was created, because according to the math there is no way that Evolution could even modify a cell without destroying it.
Also according to the math, Evolution would take almost an infinite amount of time to get a Human, much less, anything that could live.
Well, sorry, you only have, what, 3 billion years.
The theory of creation is perfectly logical and fits what we see in the universe, and the fact that you believe in a random process with the bad ones dying out is not only unreasonable, and illogical, it's evil. Because to me it sounds like you don't want to believe you were created.
In fact, Darwin was driven to create his theory because he didn't want to believe in a god.
And yes, Modman, he did do many terrible, and racist things!
Check this out: http://blog.drwile.com/?p=271
backed up with referencec or citation (just learned a new word! Shocked) and the citation should be backed up with references, and the references should be logical, and the logic must be in-terms of science since he claims his belief to be scientific.
At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes…will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.1
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 11:00:03
Modman, I am not going to argue about religion.
You believe in random mutations and then the bad ones die out, I believe in a creator.
I believe in a creator because the human body is so complex.
I think everything was created, because according to the math there is no way that Evolution could even modify a cell without destroying it.
Also according to the math, Evolution would take almost an infinite amount of time to get a Human, much less, anything that could live.
Well, sorry, you only have, what, 3 billion years.
The theory of creation is perfectly logical and fits what we see in the universe, and the fact that you believe in a random process with the bad ones dying out is not only unreasonable, and illogical, it's evil. Because to me it sounds like you don't want to believe you were created.
In fact, Darwin was driven to create his theory because he didn't want to believe in a god.
And yes, Modman, he did do many terrible, and racist things!
Check this out: http://blog.drwile.com/?p=271
a cell reproduces itself after half an hour...
The human body is simple
The flagella...
How many times do i have to say, and i belive modman already has, that there could`ve been a creator? and how many cells does the human body posses? they reproduce after half an hour, and then you have two cells increasing.
Quote
At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes…will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.1
People at that time who were black had about no education, and they were savages, and they lived primitive. Why wouldn`t he be racist?
HOWEVER, the people who don't believe in god suffer from shortsight.
Gabbe, I'm sorry if you don't realize how true the bible is, and how much evidence that there is for it.
I can't see that virus that gave me a cold, but I know it was there, 'cause otherwise I wouldn't be feeling like that.
why you belive in god, all the christians i have met cannot argue why they belive...You met me, haven't you? :|
The Earth...its size is perfect.
The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury
Scientific Fact No. 1 - Birds Prove Natural Selection is Naturally Wrong
[...]
Scientific Fact No. 2 - Species Without a Link Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]
Scientific Fact No. 3 - Single Cell Complexity Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]
Scientific Fact No. 4 - Human Egg and Sperm Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]The female egg contains the X-chromosome and the male sperm contains either an X-chromosome for the reproduction of a male or a Y-chromosome for the reproduction of a female.[...]However, the environmental experience of the female cannot change the chromosomes within her eggs and cannot have any effect upon her offspring.[...]
Scientific Fact No. 5 - DNA Error Checking Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]
Scientific Fact No. 6 - Chaos From Organization Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]Complex live organisms cannot rearrange themselves into an organism of a higher form as claimed by evolutionists.[...]
Evolution lacks any scientific proof. Evolution is simply an empty theory.
Scientific Fact No. 7 - Chromosome Count Proves Evolution is Wrong
[...]
Scientific Fact No. 8 - Origin of Matter and Stars Proves Evolution is Wrong
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Scientific Fact No. 9 - Lack of Life on Mars Proves Evolution is Wrong
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Scientific Fact No. 10 - Radio Silence from Space Proves Evolution is Wrong
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I think this argument is pretty pointless, as neither side is gonna give way, at any rate as Gabbe said there have been spots in the solar system that could possibly be habitable.
Gabbe, have you seen The Case for a Creator yet?
and we have a 2012 fantasy here?Stupid myans know nothing. 2012 is a bunch of bull.
Gabbe, have you seen The Case for a Creator yet?Dunno what that even is. Could you summarize?
Kukac I'm going to ignore you, I now understand why you believe in Evolution, because you don't understand logic.
Scientific Fact No. 5 - DNA Error Checking Proves Evolution is Wrong
The scientific fact that DNA replication includes a built-in error checking method and a DNA repair process proves the evolutionary theory is wrong. The fact is that any attempt by the DNA to change is stopped and reversed.
Damn you're arrogant. It's astounding for someone who is, hmmm, only 13 and has been a member of the forums for a little over a year. How many times does Omega have to tell you to pipe down?Pipe down modman.
Flame the person's ideas, not the person.
So if "any attempt by the DNA to change is stopped and reversed," I guess we wouldn't have to worry about cancer. The truth is, there is some error checking, but it isn't foolproof. I don't really want to take AP Bio (I hate wrote memorization; this is why I hate Spanish too), so I'm only going off my one semester biology overview course.Even god isn't perfect (otherwise there wouldn't be people doubting him here...) It's like a web designer making a page with a lot of checks to stop bad information from being entered only for someone to exploit it with cross-browser scripting language.
blanket statements or claimsBoooo... Violation of rule one. ::)
Interesting point, but I don't argue DNA. It's not my strong point and genetics bore me (yeah sure I might get those green eyes from my mother, but does it make a difference?).
Even god isn't perfect (otherwise there wouldn't be people doubting him here...) It's like a web designer making a page with a lot of checks to stop bad information from being entered only for someone to exploit it with cross-browser scripting language.
that doesn't add to the discussion.
I really couldn't care what scientists think. They ARE scientists, therefore support what science can do, and have trouble with what they cannot understand (ask a scientist: "What caused the big bang?").
Interesting point, but I don't argue DNA. It's not my strong point and genetics bore me (yeah sure I might get those green eyes from my mother, but does it make a difference?).
Then start care for evidence, they have trouble with what some brain-damaged people back 3000 years from now said, you have problem with denying what your told to belive
But us as Humans are getting less complex over time.
No Gabbe, it is not a smart process.
Also, since it is going on now........ :P
hey, i came across this idea - i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce. how did that happen? you cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex, as then they could have no children to discover the ability to have children! There! evolution debunked...
i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce
when has a random mutation ever been helpful
There! evolution debunked...
last time i checked, sickle cell anemia was a bad thing
you cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex
Evolution randomly spits out mutations and the bad ones die out
Since devolution's going on now, why can't it always have been going on
Yah, you have to have random chance create reproduction with a female and a male at around the same time, and the male has to be attracted to the female and every little detail has to be perfect or else reproduction couldn't happen.
The guy is going to have to evolve his genitals and the female must evolve hers, and they have to be compatible. Besides how's the guy going to evolve his genitals, a little sensitive lump evolving to genitals?
Anyway, you still have to get the female and the male before any of that........... No Opinion
Quotei heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce
You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.
Quotei heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce
You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction
i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.
i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.
it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator
it just seems so simple
maybe you are just thinking too hard.
i got it from here
if you think about it
i just know
and it will eventually
Neither evolution nor Creationism can be fully proved, for none of us were actually there when it happened.
Exactly, it is very unlikely that we shall find the answer to this mystery in our life times
I don't believe in a 2012 catastrophe but the world will eventually end no matter what
Gabbe, you are wrong, we have disproved your statements just as well as you have disproved ours. we are on equal terms, and nothing will end this stalemate (yes, this is a stalemate). no matter how much "evidence" that you bring up, we will find someway to make you think about your decision.
Quotei heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce
You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.Quotewhen has a random mutation ever been helpful
Some bacteria evolved defences against antibiotics/antibiotica, you don`t have to view it as helpfull for the human race, it was helpfull for the bacteria.QuoteThere! evolution debunked...
Sorry, but that was not the case.Quotelast time i checked, sickle cell anemia was a bad thing
last time you checked...Do you ever check out things that doesn`t support your belief? NO.Quoteyou cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex
We don`t.QuoteEvolution randomly spits out mutations and the bad ones die out
You cross-over! :confused: "nothing is random, but evolution is as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
70 percent of all mutations are bad, but still there are 30% who doesn`t and then im not including the mutations we don`t notice wich doesn`t cause any damage at all!
Now you might argue that then since 70% are bad species will have gotten extinct a long time ago, but, the mutations only occur at one of the individuals, then if it is bad, that creature will die and not reproduce, if it is good, it will have a advantage over the other members of the specie, and evolve. There are of course individuals without mutations, and they are the majority, so if a good mutation shows up, it will reproduce more quickly, with taking less damage than the other members.
A harmful mutation decreases the individuals rate of survival in the environment.
If the mutation is beneficial however, it will increase the fitness of the individual and/or promote traits that are desireable.
Here is from wikipedia:
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication
Beneficial mutations
Although most mutations that change protein sequences are neutral or harmful, some mutations have a positive effect on an organism. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.
For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.
Another example, is Sickle cell disease which is a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.QuoteSince devolution's going on now, why can't it always have been going on
Why can`t Evolution and "Devolution" have been going on at the same time? It can have been always going on, but evolution has too.
Don`t tell me you seriously belive that "man used to be higher than a house and now theyr growing smaller and weaker and dumber"?QuoteYah, you have to have random chance create reproduction with a female and a male at around the same time, and the male has to be attracted to the female and every little detail has to be perfect or else reproduction couldn't happen.
A simple answer would be: NO
A scientific answer would be long and boring:
The details of the female doesn`t have to be perfect, but occasionally you will meet someone with almost the exact deatails you need, then you will fell in the phenomenon "Love", your statement is not objective, without any evidence to support it. This is what evolution call: Species.QuoteThe guy is going to have to evolve his genitals and the female must evolve hers, and they have to be compatible. Besides how's the guy going to evolve his genitals, a little sensitive lump evolving to genitals?
I understood very little of that, but i`ll try.
The genitials doesn`t have to be compatible,there is no such thing as exact compatible if thats what your pointing to. that is something called what? a specie?QuoteAnyway, you still have to get the female and the male before any of that........... No Opinion
Simply, no, you must have the chromozomes to reproduce sexually, asexually however you will only need one individual, a cell for example.
Nice that there is more creationists, hmm... there should be a poll: Creationism or Evoltuion...
i have read your post, and i am sorry that it has come to yelling (caps lock doesnt make you smarter). the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?
How do you know?The sun will die because everything dies eventually, and stars dying have been observed by scientists and our sun is a star meaning it will eventually die as well
i have read your post, and i am sorry that it has come to yelling (caps lock doesnt make you smarter). the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?
he whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance
The sun will die because everything dies eventually, and stars dying have been observed by scientists and our sun is a star meaning it will eventually die as well
Life is about living it to its fullest, and people try to achieve things to prove that they are great and so that they can be remembered in the future
if life is by chance
maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us
we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it
Quote
i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce
You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.
Quote
Evolution randomly spits out mutations and the bad ones die out
You cross-over! Huh? "nothing is random, but evolution is as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
Quote
Since devolution's going on now, why can't it always have been going on
Why can`t Evolution and "Devolution" have been going on at the same time? It can have been always going on, but evolution has too.
Don`t tell me you seriously belive that "man used to be higher than a house and now theyr growing smaller and weaker and dumber"?
Quote
Yah, you have to have random chance create reproduction with a female and a male at around the same time, and the male has to be attracted to the female and every little detail has to be perfect or else reproduction couldn't happen.
A simple answer would be: NO
A scientific answer would be long and boring:
The details of the female doesn`t have to be perfect, but occasionally you will meet someone with almost the exact deatails you need, then you will fell in the phenomenon "Love", your statement is not objective, without any evidence to support it. This is what evolution call: Species.
Quote
The guy is going to have to evolve his genitals and the female must evolve hers, and they have to be compatible. Besides how's the guy going to evolve his genitals, a little sensitive lump evolving to genitals?
I understood very little of that, but i`ll try.
The genitials doesn`t have to be compatible,there is no such thing as exact compatible if thats what your pointing to. that is something called what? a specie?
Quote
Anyway, you still have to get the female and the male before any of that........... No Opinion
Simply, no, you must have the chromozomes to reproduce sexually, asexually however you will only need one individual, a cell for example.
Quote
i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.
Cell division is the process by which a parent cell divides into two or more daughter cells. And then again the daughter cells are fully capable of reproducing theyr next generation, such goes on until we get larger organisms. Maybe you should think a little more about something before making up your mind?
Quote
if you think about it
Let me continue that: ,Noone of the creationism arguments seems pretty reliable, nor do they have references, nor do they have tests, nor do they use science, nor do they observe, nor do they check every little detail about htier own theory, nor are they going to give up their faith because someonje shows them facts.
Neither evolution nor Creationism can be fully proved, for none of us were actually there when it happened.
Gabbe, you are wrong, we have disproved your statements just as well as you have disproved ours. we are on equal terms, and nothing will end this stalemate (yes, this is a stalemate). no matter how much "evidence" that you bring up, we will find someway to make you think about your decision.
i have read your post, and i am sorry that it has come to yelling (caps lock doesnt make you smarter). the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?
Quote
i have read your post, and i am sorry that it has come to yelling (caps lock doesnt make you smarter). the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?
Life is about living it to its fullest, and people try to achieve things to prove that they are great and so that they can be remembered in the future
Quote
he whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance
You must read yours.
Quote
The sun will die because everything dies eventually, and stars dying have been observed by scientists and our sun is a star meaning it will eventually die as well
What if we escaped before the three billion years (yes that is estimated how long the suns going to last before half-way explode and suck the planets up) have passed and found a new system?
Quote
Life is about living it to its fullest, and people try to achieve things to prove that they are great and so that they can be remembered in the future
Or do so much badass things that you will be remembered Smile nah just joking. Thats what i think too
Quote
if life is by chance
What in the blood hell makes you think that? Shocked Laughing
Quote
maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us
I like all of these things, ima die anyway so why not enjoy it?
Quote
we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it
I don`t belive in any afterlife, why not just enjoy your time still alive?
Actually, according to science, you will "reappear" if your atmos transfer to be in the exact same position as your atoms have now, and it must be EXACT!
So the real reason you belive in creationism is because of your lusts? and that you really thinks evolution is true, but you don`t want to? Trust me, it doesn`t make you suicidal or anything, im not suicidal so?
Logic. DNA. Science. Reason.
im sorry it was that way, but then once again - we'll all find out who's right when we are finally laid to rest...
Gabbe, that's 5.54billion last I checked, and it's probably going to be a long time before we get into space more.
We're talking about two creatures coming together to produce one creature, much more complicated.
i heard that creatures had to evolve
Evolution is unpredictable, basically random, but nothing in the universe is truely random, "random" things just appear to be random.
The thing is, that the chances for Evolution having success are so minimal that you might as well call it random.
You cross-over! Huh? "nothing is random, but evolution is as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
70 percent of all mutations are bad, but still there are 30% who doesn`t and then im not including the mutations we don`t notice wich doesn`t cause any damage at all!
Now you might argue that then since 70% are bad species will have gotten extinct a long time ago, but, the mutations only occur at one of the individuals, then if it is bad, that creature will die and not reproduce, if it is good, it will have a advantage over the other members of the specie, and evolve. There are of course individuals without mutations, and they are the majority, so if a good mutation shows up, it will reproduce more quickly, with taking less damage than the other members.
A harmful mutation decreases the individuals rate of survival in the environment.
If the mutation is beneficial however, it will increase the fitness of the individual and/or promote traits that are desireable.
Here is from wikipedia:
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication
Beneficial mutations
Although most mutations that change protein sequences are neutral or harmful, some mutations have a positive effect on an organism. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.
For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.
Another example, is Sickle cell disease which is a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.
*facepalm*
You obviously don't know the meaning of complexity, and you also don't seem to understand how complex the Human body is.
Not perfect, but each individuals genitals have to be the right size so they fit.
Why don't you read up on sex, it's not just this goes in this and boom stuff comes out and then a baby appears if a little creature found an egg thingy.
Of course they have to be compatible, you can't have two "openings", you have to have something to go into that opening.
Gabbe, a male and a female are required to have sex, that's undisputable.
Dude, you have to have mutations to change the genes, and those mutations are pretty much random, hoping that random chance is going to get you from a cell to a Human is completely foolish.
You cross-over! Huh? "nothing is random, but evolution is as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
70 percent of all mutations are bad, but still there are 30% who doesn`t and then im not including the mutations we don`t notice wich doesn`t cause any damage at all!
Now you might argue that then since 70% are bad species will have gotten extinct a long time ago, but, the mutations only occur at one of the individuals, then if it is bad, that creature will die and not reproduce, if it is good, it will have a advantage over the other members of the specie, and evolve. There are of course individuals without mutations, and they are the majority, so if a good mutation shows up, it will reproduce more quickly, with taking less damage than the other members.
A harmful mutation decreases the individuals rate of survival in the environment.
If the mutation is beneficial however, it will increase the fitness of the individual and/or promote traits that are desireable.
Here is from wikipedia:
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication
Beneficial mutations
Although most mutations that change protein sequences are neutral or harmful, some mutations have a positive effect on an organism. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.
For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.
Another example, is Sickle cell disease which is a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.
You are the ones that do not observe, you are the ones that do not refer to science and logic. No Opinion
Creationism is fully provable, the fossil record, science, logic, everything is under Creationisms house, whereas evolutionism's sitting on thin rotten pegs, which supprising haven't fallen.
No Creationism is winning incredibly here, Gabbe, apparently doesn't realize that.
I agree, although morality issues is not the only reason I'm against Evolution, in fact the morality issues simply provide a drive for me to debate this.
What's the point of living life to it's fullest? It doesn't matter in a meaningless and pointless world.
What's so strange and impossible about our theory, we believe in a creator, just a being of some sort that created us, no random crap like evolution.
You cross-over! Huh? "nothing is random, but evolution is as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
70 percent of all mutations are bad, but still there are 30% who doesn`t and then im not including the mutations we don`t notice wich doesn`t cause any damage at all!
Now you might argue that then since 70% are bad species will have gotten extinct a long time ago, but, the mutations only occur at one of the individuals, then if it is bad, that creature will die and not reproduce, if it is good, it will have a advantage over the other members of the specie, and evolve. There are of course individuals without mutations, and they are the majority, so if a good mutation shows up, it will reproduce more quickly, with taking less damage than the other members.
A harmful mutation decreases the individuals rate of survival in the environment.
If the mutation is beneficial however, it will increase the fitness of the individual and/or promote traits that are desireable.
Here is from wikipedia:
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication
Beneficial mutations
Although most mutations that change protein sequences are neutral or harmful, some mutations have a positive effect on an organism. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.
For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.
Another example, is Sickle cell disease which is a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.
Funny how logic, science, and reason, are totally against evolution..........
Why wait?
Khmm. So. Let's take a dog. Just a little puppy. I will shoot it's leg, but won't kill it. I give him little food in each bowl, far away from each other, so it has to walk a long way to get enough food. Once his leg heals, I will shoot the other one. And the same goes over and over again. Then the DNA get's an answer: if his leg is more "armoured", and heals faster, it can get food easier! So the DNA rewrites itself: thicker skin, and faster regeneration rate.
et's take 2 human families. One of them will go to gym every day, and build every members to fistfight. The other one will go to universities, and will be insanely magnificent. And it will go over generations. One of them will have "muscular body" written in their DNA, while the other will have "extra large brain".
the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?
How would an animal/human/etc know how to reproduce?
Kukac deleted your topic, he openly said that.
That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.
Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations, with absolutely no intelligence behind them randomly changing parts of extremely complex things. EVOLUTION IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAIL!
You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?
After that, they probably don't know what they're doing, and hormones take care of the rest.
Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.
Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations, with absolutely no intelligence behind them randomly changing parts of extremely complex things. EVOLUTION IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAIL!
Um, no. But please refrain from typing in all caps, because I believe it was you that correctly pointed out it does not further your point or make you look smarter. In fact, I generally skip over things in all caps (like legal notices in installers and long rants).
Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html
Notice how I will explain this. I will not simply link to the website, nor will I simply C&P from it. I will explain what I figured out from it.
People's misunderstanding of flight stems from the assumption that animals without flight always behaved as if they did. Obviously this is false, because flightless birds like peacocks do not even go in trees at all. They do not need to fly.
The wing probably came from structures like flying squirrels have: flaps of skin which allow them to glide. Also, when animals leap in the air from the ground, these flaps can help them stay in the air for a longer time, increasing their time for whatever activity jumping was necessary.
Now observe similarities between bats and flying squirrels. Flying squirrels can only glide, but bats flap.
Also, keep in mind that birds can start flying from the ground up, so their inability to fly once would probably not be deadly.
Cursings illegal Arch Grin, and I do believe that evolution has more logical support than creationism Tongue Tongue
In most of Europe, americans are considered dumb....
Creation is random aswell, the creator randomly created the animals and humans and that?
Oh wait, silly me, creation is a faith and requires you to "randomly" change your theory to be able to counter the scientific one.
Evolution changes as evidence is brought up. Creation changes after the need to be ignorant.
just what in the ******* hell is so hard about read the wikipedia about mutations?
I have seriously some trouble seeing why the hell my post is ignored? oh, wait, ignorance, the core of creationism.
It isn`t worth even read the rest of your post when you mention: random
In biology, a mutagen (Latin, literally origin of change) is a physical or chemical agent that changes the genetic material, usually DNA, of an organism and thus increases the frequency of mutations above the natural background level. As many mutations cause cancer, mutagens are typically also carcinogens.
...as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication
Are you insulting me Gabbe, I'm an American, well actually a Czech American, and I am a very good student, and certainly not dumb . Angry Angry
Quote
In most of Europe, americans are considered dumb....
Well, I hope you realize that you would be toast right now if it wasn't for the bravery and determination of Americans.
I also find it funny how we are a bit more advanced with technology than Europe, and why our military is totally un-matched world-wide. No Opinion
Quote
Are you insulting me Gabbe, I'm an American, well actually a Czech American, and I am a very good student, and certainly not dumb . Angry Angry
The American educational system is all fucked up, being a good student in an American school means nothing.
Creationism is not random, we believe in an intelligent being of some sort that created the universe and all life. There simply is nothing random about that!
Viruses. You really think viruses help at all, you really think that they can enhance DNA, I thought viruses made people sick, and sometimes killed them.
Where did that creator being come from then,Answer me Arch
QuoteWhere did that creator being come from then,Answer me Arch
Where did that creator being come from then
Your totally owned by China, they are just under you military, and military doesn`t matter as long as both china and india has the nukes to destory the world 1000 times...And china owns you economically, however, im glad we have the americans to destroy the terrorists, and kill of any threat to the civilized western world.
Our ecosystem could been screwed.
How was the creator created?
Complete idiot christian.
Chinese Military Ability vs. American Military Ability
Many people ask who would win a war, the Chinese or the Americans; I will now answer that question. First off, China has a much larger army (possible that the number lies somewhere around 2.4 million) than that of the United States (less than 2 million). China also has nuclear capability but only has a known amount of twenty ballistic missiles with intercontinental range where as the United States has over 2,000 nuclear weapons with the ability to hit any location on the planet.
The Chinese has a low technological development as most of the weaponry they utilize is imported from Russia. The Chinese main armored vehicle, which is numbered above 8,000 units, is the T-55 main battle tank. Chinese have a number of total armored vehicles near 10,100, including their new T-96 main battle tanks which may not be deployed until the many flaws are fixed. China’s T-55 tanks are over 40 years old and require massive amounts of money to repair.
Chinese air power is measured to be around 4,350 aircraft which are also out of date. Their newest fighter aircraft are the Russian Mig-29s or the Russian Su- 47s. Information about the Chinese military is not completely known or publicly shown; so much information about this topic is disputed. The main Chinese fighter is the 1970 Russian Mig-19. The Chinese do not invest much of their budget in air power, so during any attack on Chinese territory, the Chinese will lose all air actions.
China does have a navy with submarines. The Chinese are not building a navy, but they are selling older vessels to purchase newer Russian ships and submarines. The Chinese have only about 1,000 ships which are still outdated by American standards. The newest aircraft carrier in the Chinese navy is equivalent to America’s WWII aircraft carriers.
America has a much more modern military: Our newest main battle tanks are called the M1A2 Abrams. These tanks are the heaviest in the world, weighing in at over 72 tons. Each M1 tank has a 120 mm smoothbore cannon that can fire either rounds that explode on impact (HEAT) or rounds that act like an arrow with no explosive charge (sabot). America soldiers are equipped with modern body armor that can protect the wearer against 7.62 mm bullets. The American military also issues camouflage for the terrain, M-16A2 assault rifles with a M203 grenade launcher underneath the barrel, M4A1 assault rifles for special operations soldiers, and has armored personal carriers that can survive .50 caliber bullets. The Chinese offer no body armor and no camouflage.
The American air force just released the new F/A- 22 Raptor fighter aircraft with stealth ability; this means that the Raptor is nearly invisible to radar. The Raptor can also fire a missile at a target over fourteen miles away and just turn around knowing that the missile will not miss the target. F/A-35 aircraft are also new to the year of 2006. the F/A- 35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) comes in three different versions: The air force version which takes off of a runway carrying more weapons, the navy version that can be launched from an aircraft carrier, and the marine version that can takeoff and land vertically.
America has the largest and most advanced navy on the planet. Nuclear-powered submarines that carry nuclear missiles are called “Boomers.†Boomers remain underwater for over six months; there are nine boomers out at sea at the same time while nine other boomers are being maintained at their docks. America nuclear-powered aircraft carriers are the largest ships in the world; they carry a range of aircraft that can strike any target of any kind in any place on the planet. Destroyer ships are equipped with various missiles which can target and destroy aircraft, ships, submarines, and land targets.
If a war was to break out between China and America, nuclear weapons would not be used. If China would to launch a nuclear missile at the United States, he radioactive dust would drift with the wind right into China’ s major cities along the coast. If America would to launch nuclear missiles, China would respond by firing theirs, which just lead to more Chinese deaths. America is located at a great pace because wind blows west towards China, so nuclear weapons would damage both countries.
China has very little allies and many enemies. North and South Korea hate China, Taiwan has been in a cold war with China for a long time, Mongolia does not like China, Russia wants Shanghai harbor within Chinese territory (Shanghai does not freeze in the winter, and Russia has most of its factories located near the Chinese border), India has not been in good relations with China because of several military “accidents,†European countries do not like China, and America and all of America’s allies hate China because of communism. You can be sure that Russia would help America fight against China, the United Kingdom and Australia would help America, and most European countries would help out America too. China might get some help from countries that are nearby and afraid of nuclear weapons, but they may not be that powerful anyway.
In the end, the one with the most friends will win. America would beat China and distribute its territory to allies in the area in exchange for free or cheap oil. If a war ever does break out, we would not have to worry about too much, as China is too old to fight.
I wrote this a while ago. Most of it is now out-of-date, but I don't care.
__________________
I think, therefore I am a concentrated machine of displaying thought and emotion with the ability to "think outside the box," rebel against any rule, and have natural rights to freedom of speech and the right to never be a slave of anything; not even death can stop me from this!
We're talking about a guy who created the universe, and me(maybe not my soul though), so telling you where God came from would be pretty much impossible as a Human, you'd have to ask him, and I have no clue how you would do that as a Human.
Typical of atheists to pick on the people that aren't well suited for a debate about evolution.
i do care about the math
but this is just outside my field of study
(i like chemistry, not math)
and i cannont prove that God exists
He has designed the world with hints so that we would find Him
45% belive in evolution45 + 40 + 15 = 110%???
40% belive in creation
15% belive nothing, have not heard of any, or do not care
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIeLRD1L9yY&feature=PlayList&p=B89BE864450B3E66&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=18[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr2CP86XVuw&feature=PlayList&p=B89BE864450B3E66&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=19[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwuvYtBNZsk&feature=PlayList&p=B89BE864450B3E66&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=20[/youtube]
Pedig nincs hatalmasabb nálad
Semmi ami utadba állhat
Te vagy a legprimitÃvebb isten
És te vagy a legfejlettebb állat,
[...]
Ha nem is tudod, de te vagy az ász
Önmagadnak is felette állsz
There isn't anyone more powerful than you
There is nothing, that can stand against you
You are the most primitive god
And you are the most advanced animal
[...]
Even if you know, you are the ace
You are standing even above yourself.
Don't worry, He'll prove Himself soon.
Did you all see these?
We are here because we are very, very, very lucky. So how come I haven't won the lottery twenty times in a row yet?
This is called the teleological argument. It is faulty because it implies that order can only come from a designer, in this case God. Unfortunately, the only way we differentiate "ordered" universes from those which are not is that they contain life.
order can and does only come from a Designer. The level of order within our universe is staggering, and to say that it is was the work of nothing more than a natural phenomenon is awfully arrogant.
We're probably going to have colonized the whole galaxy by then. Roll EyesHumanity is in decline, we are not getting any better, just look the, USA is shutting down its space program, we'll never get out of this galaxy at such a rate >:( >:( :o
order can and does only come from a Designer. The level of order within our universe is staggering, and to say that it is was the work of nothing more than a natural phenomenon is awfully arrogant.
just look the, USA is shutting down its space program, we'll never get out of this galaxy at such a rate
Humanity is in decline, we are not getting any better
Can you feed wood and nails to a machine that randomly assembles things, and hope to have a good strong and sturdy ladder within 1000 years, I highly doubt that.
The wood is not cut, and the machine has to cut the wood almost perfectly.
We're probably going to have colonized the whole galaxy by then. Roll Eyes
The sun will destroy itself in 6billion years but that doesn't mean conditions will be livable for the time past, second of all we may be extinct from other causes by then Roll Eyes
This universe is not perfectly ordered Arch, Seanachaidh, and creationist company, The sun will one day shrivel up the earth, is that perfectly ordered. ::) >:( >:( :bomb: :wicked: :P :O :(
The laws of thermodynamics only works in a closed system btw, repeated words tho...The earth is a closed system.
I'm not about to take english lessons from someone who is not sure how to spell simplify, and does most of his arguing through posting ill-informed Youtube videos.Quoteorder can and does only come from a Designer. The level of order within our universe is staggering, and to say that it is was the work of nothing more than a natural phenomenon is awfully arrogant.
Please look up the following definitions it is very hard to read your post when the words are infact incorrect to use.
Order
Phenomenon
Awfull
Arogant
Earth is not entirely a closed system, as we get input from the sun. The universe as a whole is a closed system if and only if there is no god.
This universe is not perfectly ordered Arch, Seanachaidh, and creationist company, The sun will one day shrivel up the earth, is that perfectly ordered. ::) >:( >:( :bomb: :wicked: :P :O :(
That is not what I was referring to. What I'm referring to is the evolutionary theory, which deals with organisms, not the universe as a whole. Evolution "assumes" that organisms become more complex and stable when left to themselves, which again goes against the second law of thermodynamics.
The simple fact that the universe isn't perfectly ordered further supports the fact that in order to follow scientific law, it had to be perfectly ordered to begin with, and furtherQuoteThe laws of thermodynamics only works in a closed system btw, repeated words tho...The earth is a closed system.I'm not about to take english lessons from someone who is not sure how to spell simplify, and does most of his arguing through posting ill-informed Youtube videos.Quoteorder can and does only come from a Designer. The level of order within our universe is staggering, and to say that it is was the work of nothing more than a natural phenomenon is awfully arrogant.
Please look up the following definitions it is very hard to read your post when the words are infact incorrect to use.
Order
Phenomenon
Awfull
Arogant
edit:Srry, that last statement was a little harsh...
Huh? :confused:Earth is not entirely a closed system, as we get input from the sun. The universe as a whole is a closed system if and only if there is no god.
Thermodynamics are laws of the universe, so the universe doesn`t work as a closed system since the laws only matters within the universe.
The earth is a closed system.
I'm not about to take english lessons from someone who is not sure how to spell simplify
and does most of his arguing through posting ill-informed Youtube videos.
Srry, that last statement was a little harsh...
The laws of thermodynamics are the laws of this universe. anything outside the universe doesn`t have anything to do with the thermodynamics as that is the laws of this specific universe. that means it wouldn`t work as a closed system since anything outside won`t be affected. was that clearer?Err... I think I know what you're saying, but I don't see how it applies here. If there is something outside of our universe or metaphysical plane (like a god), then that certainly does change things, and that would mean that the universe is not a closed system b/c it's being affected by an outside force, in the same way that Earth isn't a closed system b/c it received energy from the sun, meteors, cosmic rays, whatever.
We are here because we are very, very, very lucky. So how come I haven't won the lottery twenty times in a row yet?
This is called the teleological argument. It is faulty because it implies that order can only come from a designer, in this case God. Unfortunately, the only way we differentiate "ordered" universes from those which are not is that they contain life.
According to the second law of Thermodynamics, Every system, if left to itself, invariably tends towards disorder.
The evolutionary theory goes against that law by assuming that everything became more and more complex the longer it exists.
What I'm referring to is the evolutionary theory, which deals with organisms, not the universe as a whole. Evolution "assumes" that organisms become more complex and stable when left to themselves, which again goes against the second law of thermodynamics.
The earth is a closed system.
(btw i call you he since i only know sean as a male name)
The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all.
I'm not going to get into all this thermodynamic talk.
Evolution relies on harmful things(radiation, transposons, viruses, DNA errors) to randomly produce unintelligent changes to extremely complex cells, and somehow come up with an intelligently designed Human body.
Evolutionists believe that complexity gives intelligence, why, because evolutionists believe that having a complex brain and body, gives you intelligence.
Now I have seen no proof that something extremely complex just has intelligence, and a will.
Besides, you still have to face down spiritualism, you have to tell the people that walk on fire, that walking on fire is impossible.
The genetic variation on which natural selection acts may occur randomly, but natural selection itself is not random at all.
Natural selection is getting rid of creatures which don't have advanced genetic changes.
The theory of evolution is random. To rely on random genetic mutations, then claim that evolution is not random is ridiculous.
Your are the only one claiming that evolution is random.
I also happen to believe that evolution is based on random mutations somehow creating an intelligent being. I haven't read of any evidence to the contrary.
Walking on water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry2aG9QES0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw
Walking on water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry2aG9QES0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw
Jesus didnt just "walk" on water, He stood on the water. but physics states that you would have to constantly be in motion to do that, Jesus didnt follow that law (He made them, so he didnt have to).
Jesus' criminal record: Broke the laws of physics.
lol Well I'm just tired of the evolution argument, since it's been going on for ages and is going nowhere fast. :PAgreed! In fact, I nearly stated as much in my post on the last page, but was ignored.
i know, he was the result of that Maria cheated on someone right?
Agreed! In fact, I nearly stated as much in my post on the last page, but was ignored.I picked up on it, but I think just about everybody has picked their topic/battle. ::)
Reincarnation? I'll bite. Theologically, what purpose does it serve? I've heard it's mainly related to ones "karma" that determines what one would come back as?Yeah, all of the religions believing in reincarnation that I'm familiar with have some kind of karma system, under various names. The Hindus believe in both good and bad karma, while the Jains believe all karma is bad and thus, you should try to interfere with the world as much as possible, because you might accidentally cause harm (like swallowing a bug, which is why their monks wear coverings over their mouths). I seem to remember something about the Aztecs believing warriors came back to life as butterflies, which I guess is pretty cool if you like killing people and tasting with your feet.
It seems that forgetting past lifes would be no different than never having them. It's not information that can be accessed so it won't effect ones behavior. Unless of course the idea includes the concwpt of people's personalities (attitudes and behaviors) are influenced by way of ones whole (all lives) being.My understanding of the Hindu view is that everything about your life is the result of your karma, so it's not just that you're born a human, but also that you're born in such-and-such a caste to parents of such-and-such socioeconomic status, etc., and I think they believe that karma keeps going through all your lives. Rollover karma, I guess you could say. A side effect of this is that their religion doesn't require them to help people, because if something bad is happening to someone it's their own fault for being a bad person/snake/badger a couple hundred years ago. I'm not sure about Buddhists, Jains, Scientologists, or others on that matter.
Walking on water:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry2aG9QES0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2XQ97XHjVw
The films are Awful, :( :( >:(, such people should be shot. >:( >:( >:( :wicked: :wicked: :dead: :dead: :dead:
I know, i would say, kill all islams so they will not perceed with the sharia law or any other activity of theirs, look here, noo blood, but i cannot garauntee against nightmares:Guys... that doesn't really help.
I am afraid to paint ugly pictures of the pedophil prophet muhammad, because i got muslims in my neighbourhood wanting to stab me if i do so. (snip) I feel angry at them for oppressing free speechStill, how the heck does that justify this (also from your first paragraph):
I feel to nuke their asses so hard theyll not have a chance to survive!??? :o :o :o
I feel happy that their whole nationWhat "whole nation" are you talking about?
i feel sad for them to be human like me, yet to kill innocent people and then pray to god, and get a reward for it too!What reward?
Basically, i feel for crushing the whole of muslims to pure dust and then laugh at the religion so hard i`ll probably die. Don`t blame me, they started it, i didn`t tell them to go insane and awake the sleeping giant. Muslims, the sharia, any thing related to that religion is way worse than christianity. I hate those bastards for actually being alive, it is an insult to say that they deserve it. They actually deserve the thing called hell, i did not tell em to do things that would make me think that about them. Guess what, its their fault, purely, if they had not done it, i wouldn`t hate them, they knew that we would hate them when they started killing people, they knew the consequences, they are the ones doing the bad things, i can`t do anything about the way i feel for them, THEY started it, THEY can`t fix it, THEY deserve according to me, eternal torture and burning in hell, if it ever existed. I don`t care for the "moderate muslims" if they tell me their just as good as any christian, no, they also deserves it, if they ever listened to what the Koran said, they`ll convert immeidately, but no, they are preechign their asses of, then their little brainwashed minds are saying it to be holy and true, liek what the hell? How can ANYONE EVER defend such thing? Christianity transformed into western values, we don`t torture any more, if not completely nesesarry, we do not kill civilians, but i dare to say that we have the RIGHT to kill islamics and their country and everything. THEY ARE THE ONES DOING THE BAD THINGS! we don`t halfway bury women and then throw rocks on them till they die. IF YOU ARE MUSLIM YOU ARE EVIL!Now this is just a load of crap.
Those bastards even dare to migrate illegal into Norway after shouting in the streets in their homeland that "NORWAY you wil pay! DENMARK you will pay!" How can we ever allow them even to get near our border?Tell me one thing... recognise any of the faces from the videos on your neighbourhood? Are they the same actual persons?
I'm not saying kill them all, but they have no right to impose their beliefs on others, if they want islam they can have it in the middle east but they can't bring it and try to impose it on others. >:( >:( >:(True. Can you impose Democracy on them?
I know that God exists, want more proof
taint?
When they didnt, God would put them back on track
God made promises (which He always keeps) to Jacob, Abraham, and the rest that He would take care of their children. He was looking for their best interests.
mhm, jda, muslims and free speech/free rights are contradictions, you cannot have these together, the Koran tells you as any other holy book that you should preech about your religion, i say that they can preech as much as they want, but killing civilians and threaten me on my life, then i hate them, thats how the real world works.If your neighbours threaten your life, ok, kill 'em! :P What do the other muslims have to do with it? :look:
one of the reasons God commanded the Israelites to kill so many people is because He knew that they're beliefs would taint His people. He wanted their religion wiped out because the Israelites would have stumbled, and God would have had to pour His wrath upon them (again).Do you realise how THAT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE JIHAD?!
i would get into Christian doctrine, but you guys dont care. you will diss whatever i say, so there is no point in mentioning anything bigger than what i am saying now. now, if you actually cared (and i dont mean just saying so you can mock me more), i would tell you more of my point of view.Yeah... honestly, I think few people in this thread are mature/reasonable enough to discuss beliefs in any manner other than bashing. (There are a few, just not very many.) :-\
i am leaving this conversation (brawl), again.
when a person is dumb they tend to behave bad but the threat of divine punishment meant that people were scared to loot, kill, etc.
mhm, muslims, if they care so much for aaalaaahhh why dont they jst go and fuck someone then say that they gave the world a child of islam, the religion of "peace"....
If anyone could defend islam, sorry, but defending terrorists and yeah..uhm...
i would get into Christian doctrine, but you guys dont care. you will diss whatever i say, so there is no point in mentioning anything bigger than what i am saying now. now, if you actually cared (and i dont mean just saying so you can mock me more), i would tell you more of my point of view.Yeah... honestly, I think few people in this thread are mature/reasonable enough to discuss beliefs in any manner other than bashing. (There are a few, just not very many.) :-\
i am leaving this conversation (brawl), again.
where's the damn love gene for goodness sake?!
but I'll just keep putting them in your face waiting for a good reasonable answer.
Quotewhere's the damn love gene for goodness sake?!
thats your question, heres mine...QuoteWhere`s the damn creator for goodness sake?!
Your argument is ridiculous. No Opinion
I'm done here.
Debating Christianity is ridiculous, the debate would be better named: Debating Evolution.
Completely agreed. Yet they still do it out of some false placed sense of 'righteousness'. The problem is their opinion of what is right and what is wrong. It shows how they can misintrepid words.
i thinm you don`t even belive in helltoo true
Something i just have to ask you Omega, as a christian i really know, do you think i deserve to go to hell?
Also i know i wouldn't be going to heaven because I know im a bad person......
if u guys thinks that god isnt real why do you think we dont are real then >:(
The moons distance is not proof of a young earth. The rate is closer to the 3.75cm/yr rather than the 2.5 cm/yr rate. Multiply 4.54 billion by 3.75 and you get 1.70^10 cm total or 170 million meters which gives us 170250 km the moon has moved away from the earth. The average distance of the moon from the earth is 382500 km which means if the speed of movement has been constant the starting position of the moon was 212500km away from the earth. It should be noted that the speed of movement has not been constant being affected by a number of factors but in the case of this argument it does not matter since the minimum distance the moon needed to form is around five earth radii or 31890km.