MegaGlest Forum
Off topic => Off topic => Topic started by: John.d.h on 3 November 2010, 23:37:25
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http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2010/11/03/san-francisco-bans-happy-meals.aspx?c=pfs (http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2010/11/03/san-francisco-bans-happy-meals.aspx?c=pfs)
Score!
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Yeah! :thumbup:
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That is why you shouldn't ever buy from MicDonalds.
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There's nothing wrong with some Mac'Donalds once in a while. But seriously, changing kids meals isn't the answer to overweight problems. ::)
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There's nothing wrong with some Mac'Donalds once in a while.
That's true. Too bad a lot of people eat McDonalds more than once in a while...
But seriously, changing kids meals isn't the answer to overweight problems
Of course, it is part of the solution...the toys in the kids meals were/are related to people being overweight, well kids for that part...
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If you see a fat person reading carbs, go up to them and tell them to just stop eating obviously fattening foods, and go walking. I could get fat, but I don't because I control my lifestyle, I feel like I wanna lose a little weight, I cut my diet and exercise a little more. Loosing weight(at least for me) is not very hard at all. :look:
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I don't think any amount of McDonald's is a good idea unless you're literally starving to death. Plus, of course you'd be supporting a company that deals death to kids in the same way that any tobacco corporation does. I don't think I can think of a single thing about them that I do not hate. Then again, I'm somewhat particular about what I allow into my body. Of course, parents are just as much to blame for feeding this garbage to their children in the first place. You can't really force people to be good parents, but you can force a company to stop selling a product that is harmful to consumers.
If you see a fat person reading carbs, go up to them and tell them to just stop eating obviously fattening foods, and go walking. I could get fat, but I don't because I control my lifestyle, I feel like I wanna lose a little weight, I cut my diet and exercise a little more. Loosing weight(at least for me) is not very hard at all. :look:
You most likely have a good metabolism, so you can stay in shape pretty easily. Other people, such as many Pacific islanders, are genetically predisposed to weight gain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty_genotype). Of course, they still can be in shape, but it doesn't come as naturally to many as it does to people like you and me.
But seriously, changing kids meals isn't the answer to overweight problems. ::)
It's not going to fix it entirely, but I think that getting that crap out of our children's mouths is a step in the right direction.
Now might be a good time to note that people who eat meat, on average, are three times as likely to be obese (http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/obesity.aspx), are 40% more likely to develop cancer (http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/cancer.aspx), have 2.5 times more cardiac events (http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/heart-disease.aspx) (including heart attacks, angioplasty, bypass surgery, and strokes), and die younger (http://www.ivu.org/congress/2002/texts/bowler-saturday.html) than those who don't eat meat. So really, the obvious answer to overweight problems is simply for people to eat less meat. It's not rocket science.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying that eating less meat is guaranteed to solve all obesity-related health problems, as you can be vegan and still spend your days sitting on your butt while eating potato chips, smoking crystal meth, and drinking whiskey. With that said, a meat-free diet carries far fewer health risks than a meat-eating diet, even when controlling for other factors such as tobacco use and socioeconomic status. There are obviously going to be obstacles, notably that vegans tend to not get as much B12, iron, calcium, or zinc in their diets. However, all of these are easily offset with supplementation, and the American Medical Association says that (http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/09/06/hlsa0906.htm) you should be taking a daily multivitamin no matter what diet you follow.
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Loosing weight(at least for me) is not very hard at all. :look:
Well, that's probably related to your metabolism...or something else. But nice, if only it would be as easy for others...
Yeah, I rarely eat at Mcdonald's these days...there is always something better...
I'm not vegetarian, but I try to eat less meat...usually.
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Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 02:53:10
If you see a fat person reading carbs, go up to them and tell them to just stop eating obviously fattening foods, and go walking. I could get fat, but I don't because I control my lifestyle, I feel like I wanna lose a little weight, I cut my diet and exercise a little more. Loosing weight(at least for me) is not very hard at all. Look
You most likely have a good metabolism, so you can stay in shape pretty easily. Other people, such as many Pacific islanders, are genetically predisposed to weight gain. Of course, they still can be in shape, but it doesn't come as naturally to many as it does to people like you and me.
No, I can get fat, but I just choose not too. I don't eat very much and I ride my bike a lot. Back when I was in public school, I was pudgy. Even with gym, and carrying my books all over the place.
Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 02:03:34
But seriously, changing kids meals isn't the answer to overweight problems. Roll Eyes
It's not going to fix it entirely, but I think that getting that crap out of our children's mouths is a step in the right direction.
I'm pretty sure most kids don't crave stupid little plastic toys, but still I agree, a step in the right direction.
Now might be a good time to note that people who eat meat, on average, are three times as likely to be obese, are 40% more likely to develop cancer, have 2.5 times more cardiac events (including heart attacks, angioplasty, bypass surgery, and strokes), and die younger than those who don't eat meat. So really, the obvious answer to overweight problems is simply for people to eat less meat. It's not rocket science
You're quoting the big organizations... As usual, they give the dummie explanation which is very untrustworthy. My Dad(age 64) reads an independent doctor, who explains things in detail. Guess what, apart from parkinsons(which I will explain if asked), he is very healthy, he's growing black hairs again, and he can still ride his bike 5 miles one-way to work. I'll definitely trust the independent doctor more, because compare results: A healthy kickin' 64 year-old, or someone recovered from cancer in a wheel-chair with a giant scar.
My health advice(one reason why I never get sick): Human's are naturally short of Vitamin C, other animals produce it naturally, but we don't, therefore we need to supply ourselves, I take Emergen-C since it's easy and tastes good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
However, all of these are easily offset with supplementation, and the American Medical Association says that you should be taking a daily multivitamin no matter what diet you follow
Your body needs way more than a puny multi-vitamin.
Mac'Donalds tastes really good, that's the only reason I go there once in a while(few times a year). :P
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No offense but I think its not the meat that a problem its more of the stuff thats in the meat nowadays, if it was pure meat I doubt it would affect you in any negative way.
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You're quoting the big organizations... As usual, they give the dummie explanation which is very untrustworthy.
Would you prefer the American Dietetic Association, the American Medical Association, the Centers for Disease Control, university studies? It's not like PETA is pulling these statistics out of thin air, and all of the data can be found in scholarly works.
My Dad(age 64) reads an independent doctor, who explains things in detail. Guess what, apart from parkinsons(which I will explain if asked), he is very healthy, he's growing black hairs again, and he can still ride his bike 5 miles one-way to work. I'll definitely trust the independent doctor more, because compare results: A healthy kickin' 64 year-old, or someone recovered from cancer in a wheel-chair with a giant scar.
Good for him, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". If it works for him, then great, but there are a ton of other possible factors (like genetics, mental state, etc.) that make it impossible to generalize that to an entire population. I'll also take a peer-reviewed journal over the word of a single author any day. When someone writes a book, they usually don't have a panel of experts verifying the validity of what they say. I could write a book saying that the secret to a healthy life was to breathe less and maybe even get it published, but that doesn't mean it's true. That's a bit of hyperbole, but I think you get the idea.
My health advice(one reason why I never get sick): Human's are naturally short of Vitamin C, other animals produce it naturally, but we don't, therefore we need to supply ourselves, I take Emergen-C since it's easy and tastes good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
Your body needs way more than a puny multi-vitamin.
So... you're short on C, so you take a supplement and that's plenty good enough, and I'm short on B12, so I take a supplement and it's not good enough? I think I missed something. Or maybe you mean that a regular multi doesn't have everything you need? If you were referring to something like Centrum, I would agree, but what I take (http://www.amway.com/JohnHarvey/Shop/Product/Product.aspx/NUTRILITE--DOUBLE-X--Vitamin--Mineral--Phytonutrient---31-Day-Supply-with-Case?itemno=A4300) has [url=http://www.amway.com/JohnHarvey/en/ResourceCenterDocuments/Visitor/nutr-nut-nutr-v-en--NutriliteDoubleXVitaminMineralPhytonutrient.pdf]loads of everything[/url].
Mac'Donalds tastes really good, that's the only reason I go there once in a while(few times a year). :P
Ew.
No offense but I think its not the meat that a problem its more of the stuff thats in the meat nowadays, if it was pure meat I doubt it would affect you in any negative way.
Either way, meat still has a ton of saturated fat and cholesterol in it. Whether it's loaded with antibiotics and artificial hormones like most of it is, cancer is still cancer and a heart attack is still a heart attack. There are few good reasons to eat meat, and many good reasons not to.
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Meh, that's stupid. Where I live, the vast majority of kids are in shape, because parents actually give a ****. Look at any of those fatties, and you'll notice they're stuffing their faces while their parents sit around doing NOTHING. When I was a kid, my parents gave me one choice for a meal, don't like it, too bad. You ate it all or you get punished. McDonalds was a rare treat that might happen once a month or so. The toys in happy meals? Just a fun extra. Not like anyone who wants the toys buys the food themselves. They always have their parents do, which just brings us back to the fact that it's a parent's responsibility to maintain their child's health.
Me? I eat more than anyone else in my family, probably eat at McDonalds once a week on average (because it's affiliated with the store I work at for a P/T job, and get a discount), spend plenty of time in front of a computer, yet, still maintain a healthy 175 pounds (accord to [url=http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/]this site[/url] that's a nice healthy weight for 6'1") simply because I exercise, eat balanced meals, etc etc... Never had any trouble maintaining my weight. I don't make a huge effort for it either. It's not as hard as some people make it sound (first rule: do something you love. I dislike long distance jogging, but love sports, thus, sports are a better way to exercise).
@Multivitamins: They are fine. I've taken a multivitamin daily (abet, the parent issue again). Very very few people can possibly reach all their minimum vitamins in a day, and this simply helps you maintain healthy levels of those vitamins. As John pointed out, many vitamins are not produced naturally in our body, such as C (mmm, fruit) and D (mmm, sunlight).
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I'm pretty sure most kids don't crave stupid little plastic toys
If only that was true...
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Quote from: -Archmage- on November 04, 2010, 14:35:39
You're quoting the big organizations... As usual, they give the dummie explanation which is very untrustworthy.
Would you prefer the American Dietetic Association, the American Medical Association, the Centers for Disease Control, university studies? It's not like PETA is pulling these statistics out of thin air, and all of the data can be found in scholarly works.
How about hard facts from independent sources that can be fully cross-referenced. I don't trust Unions or large associations, and I never will. Not that I think they're totally wrong on everything.
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My Dad(age 64) reads an independent doctor, who explains things in detail. Guess what, apart from parkinsons(which I will explain if asked), he is very healthy, he's growing black hairs again, and he can still ride his bike 5 miles one-way to work. I'll definitely trust the independent doctor more, because compare results: A healthy kickin' 64 year-old, or someone recovered from cancer in a wheel-chair with a giant scar.
Good for him, but the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". If it works for him, then great, but there are a ton of other possible factors (like genetics, mental state, etc.) that make it impossible to generalize that to an entire population. I'll also take a peer-reviewed journal over the word of a single author any day. When someone writes a book, they usually don't have a panel of experts verifying the validity of what they say. I could write a book saying that the secret to a healthy life was to breathe less and maybe even get it published, but that doesn't mean it's true. That's a bit of hyperbole, but I think you get the idea.
It's not a book, it's on the internet.
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My health advice(one reason why I never get sick): Human's are naturally short of Vitamin C, other animals produce it naturally, but we don't, therefore we need to supply ourselves, I take Emergen-C since it's easy and tastes good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
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Your body needs way more than a puny multi-vitamin.
So... you're short on C, so you take a supplement and that's plenty good enough, and I'm short on B12, so I take a supplement and it's not good enough? I think I missed something. Or maybe you mean that a regular multi doesn't have everything you need? If you were referring to something like Centrum, I would agree, but what I take has loads of everything.
I was talking about those sad little multi-vitamins with 30 mg of vital things like vitamin C. Yours looks like quality stuff, though you need to take about 8 of em a day for low-average C levels(2000-4000mg is average as far as I know).
What I meant was that regular multi-vitamins have way too little of everything you need.
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Mac'Donalds tastes really good, that's the only reason I go there once in a while(few times a year). Tongue
Ew.
:O
Quote from: Wyvern on November 04, 2010, 16:53:06
No offense but I think its not the meat that a problem its more of the stuff thats in the meat nowadays, if it was pure meat I doubt it would affect you in any negative way.
Either way, meat still has a ton of saturated fat and cholesterol in it. Whether it's loaded with antibiotics and artificial hormones like most of it is, cancer is still cancer and a heart attack is still a heart attack. There are few good reasons to eat meat, and many good reasons not to.
Cholestoral isn't bad in general, it's a type of cholestoral that's bad.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_cholestoral_good
Cross-reference - AHA: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp
This is also very interesting: http://health.ninemsn.com.au/whatsgoodforyou/theshow/693988/are-eggs-bad-for-your-heartI don't eat eggs much, but I do enjoy them.
They always have their parents do, which just brings us back to the fact that it's a parent's responsibility to maintain their child's health.
I would have to disagree, it's not a parents responibility to maintain their kid's health, but rather to teach the kid to manage his own health.
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Mac'Donalds tastes really good, that's the only reason I go there once in a while(few times a year). :P
Ew.
:O Taste really good? I wonder why... :O
They always have their parents do, which just brings us back to the fact that it's a parent's responsibility to maintain their child's health.
I would have to disagree, it's not a parents responibility to maintain their kid's health, but rather to teach the kid to manage his own health.
Well, I think it is both...
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Quote from: John.d.h on November 04, 2010, 17:10:32
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Mac'Donalds tastes really good, that's the only reason I go there once in a while(few times a year). Tongue
Ew.
Laughing Taste really good? I wonder why... Laughing
That's why I only go when we're hungry and driving by one. :cheesy:
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They always have their parents do, which just brings us back to the fact that it's a parent's responsibility to maintain their child's health.
I would have to disagree, it's not a parents responibility to maintain their kid's health, but rather to teach the kid to manage his own health.
Well, I think it is both...
I guess you're right. :thumbup:
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How about hard facts from independent sources that can be fully cross-referenced. I don't trust Unions or large associations, and I never will. Not that I think they're totally wrong on everything.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "independent sources". Like university studies?
It's not a book, it's on the internet.
Even more so. Anyone can post anything they want on the internet as long as it doesn't violate laws... and still, they sometimes get away with it.
I was talking about those sad little multi-vitamins with 30 mg of vital things like vitamin C. Yours looks like quality stuff, though you need to take about 8 of em a day for low-average C levels(2000-4000mg is average as far as I know).
What I meant was that regular multi-vitamins have way too little of everything you need.
In that case, I agree completely. Crystal Light makes this alleged immunity-boosting thing with twenty four grams of vitamin C! What, did they have it sitting next to an orange on the ride over to the grocery store? By the way, the RDV for vitamin C is 60mg as I recall, but it's not unusual for supplements to have thousands. There are some vitamins you can overdose on (like vitamin A), but C isn't one of them. You probably knew that already.
Cholestoral isn't bad in general, it's a type of cholestoral that's bad.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_cholestoral_good
Cross-reference - AHA: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp
Yes, low-density lypoproteins are harmful while high-density are helpful only in that they balance against the low-density. Your body naturally makes cholesterol and doesn't need to ingest any.
This is also very interesting: http://health.ninemsn.com.au/whatsgoodforyou/theshow/693988/are-eggs-bad-for-your-heartI don't eat eggs much, but I do enjoy them.
Would you like a little arsenic with that? http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49868991-75/arsenic-eggs-feed-levels.html.csp?page=1 (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49868991-75/arsenic-eggs-feed-levels.html.csp?page=1)
I would have to disagree, it's not a parents responibility to maintain their kid's health, but rather to teach the kid to manage his own health.
That really depends on the age of the child, I'd say.
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Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 01:48:36
How about hard facts from independent sources that can be fully cross-referenced. I don't trust Unions or large associations, and I never will. Not that I think they're totally wrong on everything.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "independent sources". Like university studies?
Not linked to big unions/associations? Not that their view doesn't count it's just that I'd like to see some good cross-referencing from other sources.
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It's not a book, it's on the internet.
Even more so. Anyone can post anything they want on the internet as long as it doesn't violate laws... and still, they sometimes get away with it.
Well, as a third party to my Dad's health stuff, I can tell you it all works for him, it all makes good sense, and like most things it could be cross-referenced.
By the way, the RDV for vitamin C is 60mg as I recall, but it's not unusual for supplements to have thousands.
As a person who takes over 1000mg of Vitamin C a day I can tell you that is false, or whatever organization set that standard is pretty dumb. :P
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Cholestoral isn't bad in general, it's a type of cholestoral that's bad.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_cholestoral_good
Cross-reference - AHA: http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Cholesterol/AboutCholesterol/Good-vs-Bad-Cholesterol_UCM_305561_Article.jsp
Yes, low-density lypoproteins are harmful while high-density are helpful only in that they balance against the low-density. Your body naturally makes cholesterol and doesn't need to ingest any.
:thumbup:
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This is also very interesting: http://health.ninemsn.com.au/whatsgoodforyou/theshow/693988/are-eggs-bad-for-your-heartI don't eat eggs much, but I do enjoy them.
Would you like a little arsenic with that? http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/49868991-75/arsenic-eggs-feed-levels.html.csp?page=1
I don't eat very many eggs(haven't eaten any in a few months...), so I'm not going to worry about that too much. Thanks though.
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I would have to disagree, it's not a parents responibility to maintain their kid's health, but rather to teach the kid to manage his own health.
That really depends on the age of the child, I'd say.
True... I maintain my own health, many other kids/teens do not..
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Not linked to big unions/associations? Not that their view doesn't count it's just that I'd like to see some good cross-referencing from other sources.
I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but here's an eight-part series on youtube that outlines some of the reasons to not eat meat, so if you've got an hour to kill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yResuAasCnA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yResuAasCnA)
There are a lot of things it leaves out, as it would take a very long time to cover everything, and it's a bit dated, but overall a good production, presented by experts in a variety of fields.
As a person who takes over 1000mg of Vitamin C a day I can tell you that is false, or whatever organization set that standard is pretty dumb. :P
IIRC, the RDV is based on the least amount you can get to avoid deficiency. It's a sort of bad joke in many regards, especially considering the various factors that can inhibit nutrient absorption and utilization.
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Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 05:22:10
Not linked to big unions/associations? Not that their view doesn't count it's just that I'd like to see some good cross-referencing from other sources.
I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but here's an eight-part series on youtube that outlines some of the reasons to not eat meat, so if you've got an hour to kill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yResuAasCnA
There are a lot of things it leaves out, as it would take a very long time to cover everything, and it's a bit dated, but overall a good production, presented by experts in a variety of fields.
I've got about 2 hours of totally free time...
Just watched about 15 minutes of it. I don't eat much meat at all, and fat in the meat seems to be the main problem so I'll stick with the 90% lean stuff. I think the problem is more when you eat a lot of meat and keep up the habit. Would you agree?
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As a person who takes over 1000mg of Vitamin C a day I can tell you that is false, or whatever organization set that standard is pretty dumb. Tongue
IIRC, the RDV is based on the least amount you can get to avoid deficiency. It's a sort of bad joke in many regards, especially considering the various factors that can inhibit nutrient absorption and utilization.
Oh.... :look:
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I've got about 2 hours of totally free time...
Just watched about 15 minutes of it. I don't eat much meat at all, and fat in the meat seems to be the main problem so I'll stick with the 90% lean stuff. I think the problem is more when you eat a lot of meat and keep up the habit. Would you agree?
I'd say that eating a little bit of meat is like smoking a little bit of tobacco. Quitting altogether would be better, but reduction is a step in the right direction. As far as leaner meat goes, it's bound to be better in terms of obesity and heart disease. However, it's bound to still have the numerous other problems, such as depleting our fossil fuels, contaminating rivers and aquifers with toxins that cause birth defects, leveling our forests for pastures, creating desert by over-grazing, creating new and more resistant diseases, and making "slaughterhouse worker" the worst job in the country. There's enough right there to write a book or several, and I haven't even touched on what the animals themselves go through.
Since this is getting interesting, I'm going to go ahead and split to a new topic.
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such as depleting our fossil fuels
We seem to disagree, I don't wanna talk about this simply because I can't remember why I disagree, I have a pretty bad memory, and it's been a while since I've even touched on this subject with anyone, so it's pretty covered in cobwebs. I'll talk to my Dad tomorrow(he's sleeping now...), because he doesn't seem to forget these things.
contaminating rivers and aquifers with toxins that cause birth defects
I really don't know anything about this. Explain?
leveling our forests for pastures
I'm pretty sure our forests are doing fine, come up to Maine, you'll see we've got an unlimited amount of open field and forestland, and we've got quite a number of farms.
creating desert by over-grazing
I have to say I doubt that has much truth to it, got a horse-farm right down the road, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, that's all they do. Same in all the farms around Maine that I've seen, cows, llamas, horses, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, they eat and then they fertilize. :P All the farms I've seen have nice lush grass with animals all over the place.
creating new and more resistant diseases
How exactly does that happen???
Since this is getting interesting, I'm going to go ahead and split to a new topic.
No offense but it's always funny when someone says: "I'm going to go ahead and", because it's very redundant. :P
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such as depleting our fossil fuels
We seem to disagree, I don't wanna talk about this simply because I can't remember why I disagree, I have a pretty bad memory, and it's been a while since I've even touched on this subject with anyone, so it's pretty covered in cobwebs. I'll talk to my Dad tomorrow(he's sleeping now...), because he doesn't seem to forget these things.
contaminating rivers and aquifers with toxins that cause birth defects
I really don't know anything about this. Explain?
leveling our forests for pastures
I'm pretty sure our forests are doing fine, come up to Maine, you'll see we've got an unlimited amount of open field and forestland, and we've got quite a number of farms.
creating desert by over-grazing
I have to say I doubt that has much truth to it, got a horse-farm right down the road, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, that's all they do. Same in all the farms around Maine that I've seen, cows, llamas, horses, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, they eat and then they fertilize. :P All the farms I've seen have nice lush grass with animals all over the place.
creating new and more resistant diseases
How exactly does that happen???
Since this is getting interesting, I'm going to go ahead and split to a new topic.
No offense but it's always funny when someone says: "I'm going to go ahead and", because it's very redundant. :P
The sahara is expanding due to overgrazing, and new diseases are forming and they are immune to modern medicines.
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We seem to disagree, I don't wanna talk about this simply because I can't remember why I disagree, I have a pretty bad memory, and it's been a while since I've even touched on this subject with anyone, so it's pretty covered in cobwebs. I'll talk to my Dad tomorrow(he's sleeping now...), because he doesn't seem to forget these things.
A huge amount of the fossil fuel usage in the United States and the rest of the world goes toward animal agriculture.
http://www.care2.com/causes/environment/blog/new-un-report-says-vegan-diet-vital-to-saving-fossil-fuels-the-environment/ (http://www.care2.com/causes/environment/blog/new-un-report-says-vegan-diet-vital-to-saving-fossil-fuels-the-environment/)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet)
contaminating rivers and aquifers with toxins that cause birth defects
I really don't know anything about this. Explain?
Animals poop a lot. It all has to go somewhere. Often, it goes into our waterways. Part six of the video series covers it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/heylover3#p/u/57/t8-c-1SyEew (http://www.youtube.com/user/heylover3#p/u/57/t8-c-1SyEew)
leveling our forests for pastures
I'm pretty sure our forests are doing fine, come up to Maine, you'll see we've got an unlimited amount of open field and forestland, and we've got quite a number of farms.
creating desert by over-grazing
I have to say I doubt that has much truth to it, got a horse-farm right down the road, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, that's all they do. Same in all the farms around Maine that I've seen, cows, llamas, horses, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, they eat and then they fertilize. :P All the farms I've seen have nice lush grass with animals all over the place.
Desertification is a problem mainly in Africa, where the ground is already dry and it doesn't take much grazing to turn a savannah into sand. Deforestation is not a huge problem locally, but much of the rain forest that's being cleared in Latin America is for pasture land, and the United States imports hundreds of millions of pounds of meat from Latin America annually. The extinction of plant and animal species in the rain forest is a direct result of our demand for meat.
creating new and more resistant diseases
How exactly does that happen???
When livestock are kept in such close proximity and ankle-deep in their own filth, it creates a breeding ground for germs, so farmers use massive amounts of antibiotics on their animals. If one strain of a virus happens to have a mutation that makes it immune to the antibiotics the farmers are using, it can reproduce wildly because it has no other microbes to compete with it. Thus, we get a resistant form of a virus breeding like crazy and spreading to farmers and slaughterhouse workers, and then to the general population. Bird flu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avian_influenza), swine flu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_flu), and SARS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome) all started in livestock and spread to human populations, and all were resistant to the treatments available at the time. Consequently, all of them became near-global outbreaks.
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I support eating meat!
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/76033407.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E6D4FA4648F3AE2F680A6ACC87514C6E6BF916F959F7243E3E)
Repeat after me John, Bacon is good.
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Right... (http://frankie23.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/bacon_health_benefits.jpg)heh, even if any of these so called benefits are a little bit true, it still wouldn't change my opinion about meat or bacon...
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/stove_ownership.png)
Hmm... does this thread really need to be stickied? I personally don't think so...
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Hmm... does this thread really need to be stickied? I personally don't think so...
Whoops! It was automatically sticky because I split it from the main. Fixed.
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Hmm, Can anyone show me some statistics of Vegetarians health status and Normal[meat and other stuff]peoples health status + Massive meat[and some other stuff] eaters health status?
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Hmm, Can anyone show me some statistics of Vegetarians health status and Normal[meat and other stuff]peoples health status + Massive meat[and some other stuff] eaters health status?
No, but i can tell you that bacon tastes delicious, mmm bacon... :P :P :P
Meat and cheese are the two best foods and they come from animals. If people like to eat leaves and roots thats up to them, but I would consider it a kind of "starvation food" to be eaten when nothing else is available. The vegetarians that I know are always pale looking and frequently ill apart from one who is actually obese!.
John's comparison of eating meat and smoking is ridiculous, you need to eat to live, you do not need to smoke to live.
Life is about living, not depriving yourself of things in an attempt to get get a couple of extra years mindlessly crapping yourself in a retirement home. I enjoy eating meat and if it isnt good for me (which it actually is) then so be it. TBH if I died choking on a Kobe steak with Stilton sauce then I'd die a very happy man :)
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You dont need to eat meat to live, i was vegetarian from i was 10 till 14, that period i never got ill, but my buddy who always ate hot dogs, idk if you call it that but..sausage wht ever, pigs stuff, and he got fat now..
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MOAR UPDATE:
What is the difference between a vegetarian and a meat eater? There are some drastic differences between the two. First a meat eater has a fifty percent higher chance of dying of a heart attack or stroke. Vegetarians also have half the risk of getting cancer compared to meat eaters. In a recent test scientists found that there is more bacteria on a piece of store bought chicken then on a toilet seat. The major difference is animals have much shorter intestines than humans do. Because of this a animal is able to burn out what it eats much faster than a human why is that? A human has a much longer intestine so everything we eat stays in our bodies longer.
no *** clue if true
Read more: http://healthmad.com/health/meat-eaters-vs-vegetarians/#ixzz14g5UXsqE
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The parents of these kids will still be buying big macs, the kids just wont get the toy.
Government should not dictate how we should live our lives. Freedom means we are allowed to make the wrong choices and suffer the consequences of those actions. Drugs, HIV and prostitution have ruined millions and millions of lives and killed far more people than happy meals ever will.
What would happen if we all lived in Meatifornia and governor McArnold passed a law where all vegetarians were required to eat at least 300 grams of meat a day, does that sound like freedom or authoritarianism?
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You should be able to take drugs without prison! Your consequence will be addiction but you should eb able!
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Oh wow, lots of updates!
Hmm, Can anyone show me some statistics of Vegetarians health status and Normal[meat and other stuff]peoples health status + Massive meat[and some other stuff] eaters health status?
Sure.
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/09/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html#cancer (http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/09/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html#cancer)
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week: 3.8 times
For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2.8 times
For women who eat butter and cheese 2-4 times a week: 3.25 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/09/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html#cholesterol (http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/09/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-meat-eater.html#cholesterol)
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10 percent: 9 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is 210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent
Meat and cheese are the two best foods and they come from animals.
Define "best".
If people like to eat leaves and roots thats up to them, but I would consider it a kind of "starvation food" to be eaten when nothing else is available. The vegetarians that I know are always pale looking and frequently ill apart from one who is actually obese!.
Okay, so most of the vegetarians you know are pale and sickly. Most of the omnivores I know are overweight or obese and have high cholesterol and high blood pressure, as most of them in my nation are (and yours is right behind us). Omnivores don't have to be fat and veg'ns don't have to be scrawny. Just ask world champion bodybuilder Bill Pearl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_pearl), American football hall-of-famer Joe Namath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_namath), basketball hall-of-famer Robert Parish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parish), six-time Iron Man winner Dave Scott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Scott_%28triathlete%29), or nine-time olympic gold medal winner Carl Lewis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Lewis).
John's comparison of eating meat and smoking is ridiculous, you need to eat to live, you do not need to smoke to live.
You do need to eat to live, but you certainly don't need to eat flesh. I don't think my comparison was unfair at all. They're two behaviors that increase the users' risk of disease (heart disease, cancer) while shortening their life span and negatively affecting the health of others (second hand smoke vs. ground water contamination and SARS).
Life is about living, not depriving yourself of things in an attempt to get get a couple of extra years mindlessly crapping yourself in a retirement home. I enjoy eating meat and if it isnt good for me (which it actually is) then so be it. TBH if I died choking on a Kobe steak with Stilton sauce then I'd die a very happy man :)
Live fast, die young, leave a pretty bloated corpse?
You dont need to eat meat to live, i was vegetarian from i was 10 till 14, that period i never got ill, but my buddy who always ate hot dogs, idk if you call it that but..sausage wht ever, pigs stuff, and he got fat now..
Exactly.
Government should not dictate how we should live our lives. Freedom means we are allowed to make the wrong choices and suffer the consequences of those actions. Drugs, HIV and prostitution have ruined millions and millions of lives and killed far more people than happy meals ever will.
What would happen if we all lived in Meatifornia and governor McArnold passed a law where all vegetarians were required to eat at least 300 grams of meat a day, does that sound like freedom or authoritarianism?
I do see where you're coming from, and I can't say that I completely disagree, but one of the responsibilities we've laid upon the government is taking dangerous products off the market in order to protect the consumer. That's the entire purpose of the FDA, for example. When there's hepatitis in our spinach, the government takes it off the shelves so we don't eat it. This is less "hey consumers, you can't eat that", and more "hey producer, you can't market that garbage to our kids". That's how I feel about it anyway.
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You can live as long as you want, but if you aren't happy, you'll slit your wrists before you reach that age.
What is life without bacon? :'(
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What is life without bacon? Cry
Perfectly fine. I've been a mild meat eater, vegetarian and vegan throughout my life. I currently eat mostly vegetarian with eggs (not so much dairy though) and on very rare occasions I will eat meat. I'm still alive.
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You can live as long as you want, but if you aren't happy, you'll slit your wrists before you reach that age.
What is life without bacon? :'(
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3817/boxxytrolling.jpg) (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=boxxytrolling.jpg)
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While San Francisco spools up anti-McDonald's laws and rhetoric, others within the same system are creating a new victim group, a group which will demand special rights, not equal rights mind you, but doubleplus good rights.
PW (http://proteinwisdom.com/) This is the first time that GWU has offered a class devoted specifically to Fat Studies, and its diverse enrollment is an important victory for the subject. Fat Studies scholars say their mission is to promote weight awareness and acceptance among populations of all types. The sociological study of obesity has been creeping into academia for over a decade, often as a subtopic of Women’s Studies or Health Sciences. But only recently has weight become a subject of study in its own right. “There would be no Fat Studies if there were no obesity epidemic,†says Esther Rothblum, a lesbian studies professor at the University of California, San Diego, and one of the earliest to research the psychology of weight bias.[/size]
Actually, Esther, there would be no “Fat Studies†if universities didn’t recognize the importance of creating and legitimizing ever new grievance groups — and setting up “enemies†to those groups as foils — in order to pad their course offerings and fleece their students (or their students’ parents) out of thousands upon thousands of dollars for the privilege of a completely manufactured sense of self-righteousness (and the corresponding hatred for those who haven’t “studied†weight issues — and remain both its victims and its perpetrators).
It’s a scam.
The only epidemic at issue here is the epidemic of grievance-mongering passing itself off as legitimate “scholarship.†A course on the psychology of creating and empowering ever more oppressed victim groups and the new politically correct vocabulary (and corresponding “hate speechâ€) that will grow around them — from conception through justification through architecture and departmental approval to social trajectory — would be far more valuable for students, particularly if what we are after is an understanding of how precisely “bias†plays a role in the academy.
The SF food ordinance is just varnished gilding over rust, Victorian in its essence, a morality play.
Mark Twain: 16 January 1866
Now I hate to tell such a plain truth, but I must -- the bulk of San Francisco's liberality seems sometimes actuated by a love of applause. She don't always take kindly to a good deed for a good deed's sake, but pat her on the head, and flatter her, and say Bully, bully, bully, is the great Metropolis of the Pacific, and she will break her neck trying to accomplish that good deed.
Victorian front and a Maryanne rear.
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While San Francisco spools up anti-McDonald's laws and rhetoric, others within the same system are creating a new victim group, a group which will demand special rights, not equal rights mind you, but doubleplus good rights.
<snip/>
Victorian front and a Maryanne rear.
Hmm... I may have missed something, or I might just have less background on this issue than you do, so let me see if I understand what you're getting at here. They're making it look like they're fighting obesity, but at the same time enabling it by taking responsibility away from consumers, so their efforts would be better spent attacking the root of the problem instead of nitpicking what people can and can't eat. Does that seem about right?
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contaminating rivers and aquifers with toxins that cause birth defects
I really don't know anything about this. Explain?
Animals poop a lot. It all has to go somewhere. Often, it goes into our waterways. Part six of the video series covers it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/heylover3#p/u/57/t8-c-1SyEew
Seriously man, all animals have pooped throughout all of history, why all of a sudden is animals pooping so bad... Lawn fertilizer? :P
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leveling our forests for pastures
I'm pretty sure our forests are doing fine, come up to Maine, you'll see we've got an unlimited amount of open field and forestland, and we've got quite a number of farms.
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creating desert by over-grazing
I have to say I doubt that has much truth to it, got a horse-farm right down the road, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, that's all they do. Same in all the farms around Maine that I've seen, cows, llamas, horses, eat-poop, eat-poop, eat-poop, they eat and then they fertilize. Tongue All the farms I've seen have nice lush grass with animals all over the place.
Desertification is a problem mainly in Africa, where the ground is already dry and it doesn't take much grazing to turn a savannah into sand. Deforestation is not a huge problem locally, but much of the rain forest that's being cleared in Latin America is for pasture land, and the United States imports hundreds of millions of pounds of meat from Latin America annually. The extinction of plant and animal species in the rain forest is a direct result of our demand for meat.
Wouldn't it be nice if we grew most of our food here........... :| I'm not totally sure if all that you say is true, but I'd really like to not have to wonder.
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creating new and more resistant diseases
How exactly does that happen???
When livestock are kept in such close proximity and ankle-deep in their own filth, it creates a breeding ground for germs, so farmers use massive amounts of antibiotics on their animals. If one strain of a virus happens to have a mutation that makes it immune to the antibiotics the farmers are using, it can reproduce wildly because it has no other microbes to compete with it. Thus, we get a resistant form of a virus breeding like crazy and spreading to farmers and slaughterhouse workers, and then to the general population. Bird flu, swine flu, and SARS all started in livestock and spread to human populations, and all were resistant to the treatments available at the time. Consequently, all of them became near-global outbreaks.
I'm worried about the people with unequipped immune systems. Though the farmers could just clean more, so all us lazy slobs don't have to worry in the first place. :P
I support eating meat!
(http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/76033407.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E6D4FA4648F3AE2F680A6ACC87514C6E6BF916F959F7243E3E)
I support eating mainly vegetarian with some eggs, and tougher meats(steak, chicken) on occasion! :cheesy:
As far as I know, the body is not designed to digest meat, but it can, it's just harder. Meat has a lot of good things in it, but it is not critical to living.
You dont need to eat meat to live, i was vegetarian from i was 10 till 14, that period i never got ill, but my buddy who always ate hot dogs, idk if you call it that but..sausage wht ever, pigs stuff, and he got fat now..
Dude, meat is most likely not making the difference, many other dietary factors play a role in obesity. For instance.....COOKIES!!! :P
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Well then my browser is a big fat..cookie..
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The problem with freedom is that it essentially gives you the the right to do whatever the fu** you want to do,
People can't controll guns
People can't controll unstable isotopes(Nuclear power)
People can't controll unlimited power.
i think you get the idea.
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The problem with freedom is that it essentially gives you the the right to do whatever the fu** you want to do,
There is no such thing as absolute freedom.
People can't controll guns
You mean the government can't control peoples use of guns? Because people certainly can control guns.
People can't controll unstable isotopes(Nuclear power)
Well we are...
People can't controll unlimited power.
Unlimited power, numbers, freedom, control, it's all conceptual, in the real world there are limits to everything.
This is getting kinda off-topic guys...
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Seriously man, all animals have pooped throughout all of history, why all of a sudden is animals pooping so bad... Lawn fertilizer? :P
It's suddenly so bad because there are billions more than there ever were before. Cows are also very large animals, and farmers intentionally feed them more than they need, in order to fatten them up. Add this all up and we're talking about a LOT of feces. Imagine if all the sewer systems in the world ceased to exist, and we all had to crap in our own yard. What would a densely populated area like New York City look like? That's not even counting all the pigs, chickens, and various other animals that people force breed for food.
I'm worried about the people with unequipped immune systems. Though the farmers could just clean more, so all us lazy slobs don't have to worry in the first place. :P
If you're introduced to a new pathogen that your body was never exposed to before, your immunity pretty much doesn't matter. This is why smallpox was so deadly when Europeans brought it to North America -- none of the natives had any resistance to it, while the settlers did. Nobody was resistant to SARS because SARS never existed before.
Dude, meat is most likely not making the difference, many other dietary factors play a role in obesity. For instance.....COOKIES!!! :P
So, It just so happens, completely coincidentally, that people who eat meat also happen to all be doing some other thing that makes them twelve times as likely to die of a heart attack? Yeah, right. Give me a break. ::)
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You can live as long as you want, but if you aren't happy, you'll slit your wrists before you reach that age.
What is life without bacon? :'(
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3817/boxxytrolling.jpg) (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=boxxytrolling.jpg)
(http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/5/52/Double-facepalm.jpg)
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Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 04:43:25
Seriously man, all animals have pooped throughout all of history, why all of a sudden is animals pooping so bad... Lawn fertilizer? Tongue
It's suddenly so bad because there are billions more than there ever were before. Cows are also very large animals, and farmers intentionally feed them more than they need, in order to fatten them up. Add this all up and we're talking about a LOT of feces. Imagine if all the sewer systems in the world ceased to exist, and we all had to crap in our own yard. What would a densely populated area like New York City look like? That's not even counting all the pigs, chickens, and various other animals that people force breed for food.
It still doesn't quite fit though......... It's quite well-known that lawn fertilizers are not good for fish, and it drastically increases the green algae that grows all over the place. How do I know, we own a summer cottage on a lake, some guy chopped down some beautiful woodland and put a big expensive house in, with a bright green lawn, since then all the mentioned things have been happening. There was even something about it in a newsletter on the lake system. That's a way contaminates can get into the water... :look:
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I'm worried about the people with unequipped immune systems. Though the farmers could just clean more, so all us lazy slobs don't have to worry in the first place. Tongue
If you're introduced to a new pathogen that your body was never exposed to before, your immunity pretty much doesn't matter. This is why smallpox was so deadly when Europeans brought it to North America -- none of the natives had any resistance to it, while the settlers did. Nobody was resistant to SARS because SARS never existed before.
Still though, there's never been a time when the majority of a population had strong immune systems, even now.
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Dude, meat is most likely not making the difference, many other dietary factors play a role in obesity. For instance.....COOKIES!!! Tongue
So, It just so happens, completely coincidentally, that people who eat meat also happen to all be doing some other thing that makes them twelve times as likely to die of a heart attack? Yeah, right. Give me a break. Roll Eyes
Huh??? This is about obesity.....
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Ok, back to serious mode:
The way I see it, one shouldn't have to worry about "obesity" as long as they eat balanced diets, don't over eat, exercise, get enough sleep, etc etc. Meat has NOTHING to do with it. You'll notice most professional athletes understand the importance of meat (not going into how much better it tastes over nuts and berries). Providing protein, ALL the amino acids, iron, and much much more nutrients, meat is a powerhouse. Sure it contains higher fat count than some vegetarian alternatives, but buy lean meat (I always do) and, as previously mentioned, eat balanced (for example, a burger can provide all food groups (and I'm not refering to some junky burger that you buy in packs of 20 at a store, but home-made burgers from ground beef. I can BBQ a mean burger)).
Other than the fat contents, another common excuse for vegetarians that I hear is about the "humanity of killing animals". What about the humanity of killing plants? :| In all honesty, the animals are raised by humans in careful numbers for that purpose. Their purpose is food, and there's nothing inhuman about it. Just basic food chain. It's like how your cat catches that mouse, or how that wolf gets a deer. To put bluntly, it's just life.
On the last excuse, that they simply don't like the taste of meat... I have no snappy reply, and can do nothing more but pray for them. ;) (sorry, had to put that in)
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Ok, back to serious mode:
The way I see it, one shouldn't have to worry about "obesity" as long as they eat balanced diets, don't over eat, exercise, get enough sleep, etc etc. Meat has NOTHING to do with it. You'll notice most professional athletes understand the importance of meat (not going into how much better it tastes over nuts and berries). Providing protein, ALL the amino acids, iron, and much much more nutrients, meat is a powerhouse. Sure it contains higher fat count than some vegetarian alternatives, but buy lean meat (I always do) and, as previously mentioned, eat balanced (for example, a burger can provide all food groups (and I'm not refering to some junky burger that you buy in packs of 20 at a store, but home-made burgers from ground beef. I can BBQ a mean burger)).
Other than the fat contents, another common excuse for vegetarians that I hear is about the "humanity of killing animals". What about the humanity of killing plants? :| In all honesty, the animals are raised by humans in careful numbers for that purpose. Their purpose is food, and there's nothing inhuman about it. Just basic food chain. It's like how your cat catches that mouse, or how that wolf gets a deer. To put bluntly, it's just life.
On the last excuse, that they simply don't like the taste of meat... I have no snappy reply, and can do nothing more but pray for them. ;) (sorry, had to put that in)
http://www.onlyonesolution.org/html-versions/he_didnt_know_whether_to_shit_or_go_blind.html
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That's a very biased site....
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still, me thinks images are correct.. :|
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Government exists to protect citizens from threats of force and fraud. How far we allow those laws to extend into our private lives is where our differences become apparent.
@john
The new SF ordinance enables this odd paradox where one institution of government creates socially approved anti-fat laws/rhetoric while the other institution (academia) promotes fat liberation philosophy (fat people as a subset of the oppressed minority class). It will not modify the behavior of San Franciscans nor improve conditions at feed lots and stockyards. Mark Twain was right then as now, the happy meal toy ban is just an affectation worn for approval and applause of the progressive left.
San Francisco has one of the highest HIV/AIDS rates in the western world, residents are well informed and educated yet chose to engage in high risk sexual behavior. This is the result of 30 years worth of aids prevention courses and billions of dollars of medical out-reach programs and research.
Laws and regulations do not stop people from making poor choices.
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Pictures of abused animals or aborted bloody fetuses provides insight into the radical elements of our societies but converts very few people - indeed, it turns them away.
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(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/meat_cereals.jpg)
:dead: Yuck.
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The way I see it, one shouldn't have to worry about "obesity" as long as they eat balanced diets, don't over eat, exercise, get enough sleep, etc etc. Meat has NOTHING to do with it.
Even when controlling for other factors, veg'ns are far less likely to be obese or suffer from high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or heart disease. Nothing to do with it?
You'll notice most professional athletes understand the importance of meat (not going into how much better it tastes over nuts and berries). Providing protein, ALL the amino acids, iron, and much much more nutrients, meat is a powerhouse.
It also provides saturated fat, cholesterol, estrogen, etc. It's a powerhouse in the bad sense, too. It's been shown pretty conclusively that even professional athletes, olympians, and bodybuilders don't need meat, as some of the best of all time have become champions without it.
Sure it contains higher fat count than some vegetarian alternatives, but buy lean meat (I always do) and, as previously mentioned, eat balanced (for example, a burger can provide all food groups (and I'm not refering to some junky burger that you buy in packs of 20 at a store, but home-made burgers from ground beef. I can BBQ a mean burger)).
That mitigates (doesn't cancel out, but does mitigate) one of the problems with meat, but it does nothing against the many others. If you're trying so hard to make a meat-eating diet less like a meat-eating diet, is that really any easier or better than just cutting out the meat to begin with?
Other than the fat contents, another common excuse for vegetarians that I hear is about the "humanity of killing animals". What about the humanity of killing plants? :|
I don't think plants can contemplate suffering, agony, or terror. Plants do not scream in pain. Plants do not see their friends and family with their throats cut, thrashing in agony as they die in a pool of their own blood. The animals we raise for food absolutely do. Even if killing plants were unethical, eating meat causes many times more plants to be eaten because it takes up to 16 pounds of feed to produce one pound of edible flesh. Either way, your argument loses.
In all honesty, the animals are raised by humans in careful numbers for that purpose.
You seem to be suggesting that the meat industry regulates itself in a responsible manner. If you'll buy that, I've got some ocean front property in Tibet you might be interested in.
Their purpose is food, and there's nothing inhuman about it.
No, the purpose of an animal is to live, thrive, and reproduce. Everything that is even remotely normal for a cow, pig, or chicken to do in life is completely subverted by farming.
Just basic food chain. It's like how your cat catches that mouse, or how that wolf gets a deer. To put bluntly, it's just life.
You're comparing things that aren't even remotely similar. Your cat isn't causing widespread habitat destruction. That wolf isn't causing worldwide outbreaks of deadly diseases. Crocodiles need flesh to survive. We don't.
That's a very biased site....
What, you think that's rare? Every time someone goes into a factory farm or slaughterhouse with a camera, they find the same kinds of cruelty. This is downright typical. How would you feel if dogs or cats were treated the same way?
Laws and regulations do not stop people from making poor choices.
I can't really argue with that, I suppose. I'm not sure what else there is to do. It's kind of a no-win situation, it seems. :-\
Pictures of abused animals or aborted bloody fetuses provides insight into the radical elements of our societies but converts very few people - indeed, it turns them away.
My experience tells me otherwise. I don't know about you, but most of the veg'ns I know changed their habits as a direct result of being made aware of the cruelty involved in the meat industry. Most of us already know these things are happening, but sometimes it takes something gruesome to shock us out of our complacency. For me, that moment was when I cut open the package of a pound of ground turkey and torrents of blood came gushing out of it. It wasn't that it was disgusting or that it made me nauseous, as I have an abnormally strong stomach. Rather, it made me realize that what I was doing by funding the slaughter of that animal was the same as if I had cut its throat myself.
I find that the typical story of the veg'ns I know is summed up pretty well by this quote:
It was a video that showed a bunch of guys surrounding an animal, and they were roping it off and the animal was screaming in pain. I couldn't watch it. I stopped three seconds in and in that moment I said, "You know what? I cannot sit here and complain about this animal's suffering when I myself contributed to it." Regardless of how the animal is killed, it's happening because you demanded it, because you paid for it, because you said "I need a supply of this. I need to feed my family, even though I could feed them plenty of other things that wouldn't make us feel so dirty inside."
Why should any industry have to cover up their methods? Why should anyone be afraid to see how their food got to their plate? Why should anyone have to lie to their children about where their food came from? I can't force anyone to eat a certain way, and ethically I wouldn't want to. However, I believe everyone deserves to know the truth about what they're eating, what it does to their bodies, what it does to the environment, the suffering that it causes, and that it is all done so needlessly. Everyone is free to make their own choices, but they have the right to make those choices based on truth instead of blissful ignorance.
Edit: Cleaned up some of the wording.
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I can't really argue with that, I suppose. I'm not sure what else there is to do. It's kind of a no-win situation, it seems.
This is why libertarians oppose passage of morality laws and social reform legislation, these laws serve no purpose and are ineffectual at best and drain economic resources of government and private businesses. I just want people to stay out of our private affairs, what I chose to do with my life is my business but activists on both sides of the political spectrum refuse to accept this simple request.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/us/07fat.html?_r=1
Domino’s Pizza was hurting early last year. Domestic sales had fallen, and a survey of big pizza chain customers left the company tied for the worst tasting pies.
Then help arrived from an organization called Dairy Management. It teamed up with Domino’s to develop a new line of pizzas with 40 percent more cheese, and proceeded to devise and pay for a $12 million marketing campaign. Consumers devoured the cheesier pizza, and sales soared by double digits. But as healthy as this pizza has been for Domino’s, one slice contains as much as two-thirds of a day’s maximum recommended amount of saturated fat, which has been linked to heart disease and is high in calories.
And Dairy Management, which has made cheese its cause, is not a private business consultant. It is a marketing creation of the United States Department of Agriculture — the same agency at the center of a federal anti-obesity drive that discourages over-consumption of some of the very foods Dairy Management is vigorously promoting.
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The way I see it, one shouldn't have to worry about "obesity" as long as they eat balanced diets, don't over eat, exercise, get enough sleep, etc etc. Meat has NOTHING to do with it.
Even when controlling for other factors, veg'ns are far less likely to be obese or suffer from high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or heart disease. Nothing to do with it
Ok, straying away from science and into the merky realm of real life examples. I eat plenty of meat, and am the strongest and best shape person in my family. I have none of those things. My sister eats very little meat and isn't near as in shape.
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The way I see it, one shouldn't have to worry about "obesity" as long as they eat balanced diets, don't over eat, exercise, get enough sleep, etc etc. Meat has NOTHING to do with it.
Even when controlling for other factors, veg'ns are far less likely to be obese or suffer from high cholesterol, high blood pressure, or heart disease. Nothing to do with it
Ok, straying away from science and into the merky realm of real life examples. I eat plenty of meat, and am the strongest and best shape person in my family. I have none of those things. My sister eats very little meat and isn't near as in shape.
Me to, and i dont eat much meat, only on Taco :|
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This is why libertarians oppose passage of morality laws and social reform legislation, these laws serve no purpose and are ineffectual at best and drain economic resources of government and private businesses. I just want people to stay out of our private affairs, what I chose to do with my life is my business but activists on both sides of the political spectrum refuse to accept this simple request.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/us/07fat.html?_r=1
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Frankly, I don't have enough background in this to argue either way, in favor or against, so I think I'll have to sit this one out as a neutral and undecided but interested observer.
Ok, straying away from science and into the merky realm of real life examples. I eat plenty of meat, and am the strongest and best shape person in my family. I have none of those things. My sister eats very little meat and isn't near as in shape.
Me to, and i dont eat much meat, only on Taco :|
As I recall, you're both in your teens. I should dearly hope you don't have heart disease. Maybe you'll never develop it, or any other terrible diseases. I hope you'll still be in great shape when you're ancient.
You're in shape. Great. That's not that unusual for your age. What if your metabolism slows down when you get older? What if you have kids, and they're not so lucky? There are plenty of people younger than you who do have these conditions, and who are morbidly obese, their parents getting told they'll never reach college age if they don't stop stuffing their faces with grease. That's tragic. It's also entirely avoidable. What if I have children some day and they're not blessed with my father's metabolism? (That's a very real possibility as they'll likely be adopted.) What if their genetics and various other factors leave them predisposed to the various conditions that become aggravated by feeding on meat? I won't have to worry about that so much, will I?
Maybe you're some of the lucky folks who can eat whatever they want in whatever quantity they want, and never gain a pound. That's kind of how I am, and how my dad was. In fact, I'm probably one of the last people in the world who needs to be worried about becoming obese. Personally, I don't need to abstain from eating meat, and maybe you don't need to either. As far as I can tell, there's not a remarkable difference in my health either way. I'm a little more toned and a little stronger than I was a year or two ago, but I can't say conclusively that things would be different if I were still eating meat. Now that I've said that, you may wonder what I'm getting out of being a vegetarian.
It's simple, really. I'm mitigating the negative effect I have as a human being on the world. I'm not contributing to sickness, suffering, and death in nearly the same way as I would if I still ate meat. I'm not contributing to disasters like the Deep Water Horizon or outbreaks of diseases like swine flu in nearly the same way, either. I recognized that I can be part of the problems of this world, or I can make the world a better place for future generations as well as myself by changing my behavior. I realized that these things that are destroying our future are unnecessary. I don't need to kill these animals in order to eat, nor do I need to pay someone else to do it for me.
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i used to LOVE fast food from KFC or mcdonald's but i saw something changed my mind.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-9ju11zo0
i was absloutly and extremley shocked....
i never ate it anymore ever.
in saudia it even came out at the newspapers. showing lots of abuse exposed in the fast food companies.
also the online newspaper okaz and sabaq showed it and a video of a foriegn doctor exposed a chicken industry.
i miss the old days. before this bird disaese came out. they used to sell chicken at stores. you see the cage. select a chicken by your OWN hand. instead of those sick ones at the industries.
theres still some clean fast food restaurants at saudia. they are very good. they becam rich as result of the exposion of KFC and mcdonald's. the health inspectors signed it
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i used to LOVE fast food from KFC or mcdonald's but i saw something changed my mind.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-9ju11zo0
i was absloutly and extremley shocked....
i never ate it anymore ever.
in saudia it even came out at the newspapers. showing lots of abuse exposed in the fast food companies.
also the online newspaper okaz and sabaq showed it and a video of a foriegn doctor exposed a chicken industry.
i miss the old days. before this bird disaese came out. they used to sell chicken at stores. you see the cage. select a chicken by your OWN hand. instead of those sick ones at the industries.
theres still some clean fast food restaurants at saudia. they are very good. they becam rich as result of the exposion of KFC and mcdonald's. the health inspectors signed it
All they need to do is give them 3 times as much space so they can walk around, and not try to breed them so fast. They could also use a skylight, or better a whole field to roam around in. I think they should go for healthy strong chicken with good meat, rather than fat ones with baby meat.
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right. theres no fieeld toroam because chickens are not field creatures. better a barn or a big space. like my father when he was young he says chickens were unbelivably clean and healthy and strong and diffrent. they defend their eggs like a wilf animal and they were strong and healthy and they made good eggs. he says bring a real chicken from a real farm and a chicken from an industry. spread a few ceral and see what happens. the real one will immedietl devour it. the industriall will cowe back. and also old chickens from farms can confront wild cats and wolfs and snakes.
by now. look at this industry. father says. theres nothing in the world that god created is still same as itself after the industry and human colonies came.
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All they need to do is give them 3 times as much space so they can walk around, and not try to breed them so fast.
Too bad they're never going to do that... :/