MegaGlest Forum

Modding and game content creation => Mods => Topic started by: John.d.h on 11 February 2012, 06:25:39

Title: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 11 February 2012, 06:25:39
Moon faction:

Hailing from the highlands of Rinarn, the Moon people are seen as unsophisticated barbarians by outsiders.  Their penchant for taking severed hands of their enemies as trophies has earned them a reputation for savagery, but they are so much more than mere brutes.  The artisans and craftsmen of the Rinarn lack many of the mechanisms of other nations, but they have mastered the working of iron weapons and armor.  Their soldiers fight with strength and aggression and their shamans and hags use mystic runes for protection and to bind monsters into their service.  Normally separated into squabbling tribes and villages, the people of Rinarn are a force to be reckoned with when united.  While the moon god Vaydrin is revered above all others, the tribes also pay respects to the spirits of their ancestors, animals, natural forces, and even the land itself.

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/13/12725/crop_120x90/solunar_preview_image.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/13/12725/solunar_preview_image.jpg)(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/13/12725/crop_120x90/Screenshot-1.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/13/12725/Screenshot-1.jpg)(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/13/12725/crop_120x90/Screenshot-3.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/13/12725/Screenshot-3.jpg)(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/13/12725/crop_120x90/Screenshot.jpg) (http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/13/12725/Screenshot.jpg)
(click for full size)
(http://media.use.com/images/s_1/f1740269a2dae5216b6b_1.jpg) (http://www.use.com/f1740269a2dae5216b6b?p=1) (http://media.use.com/images/s_1/f1740269a2dae5216b6b_2.jpg) (http://www.use.com/f1740269a2dae5216b6b?p=2) (http://media.use.com/images/s_1/f1740269a2dae5216b6b_3.jpg) (http://www.use.com/f1740269a2dae5216b6b?p=3)

More images: http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images (http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images)
Moon faction units: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARUAF5tBNeWaZGhoYmpmbnFfMTYyd2hoem5kMw (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ARUAF5tBNeWaZGhoYmpmbnFfMTYyd2hoem5kMw)

Solunar is built as a GAE mod.  It makes use of GAE-specific features like effects and emanations, so I don't expect it to work with MegaGlest.  It occupies its own tech tree.  It is packaged as an addon (https://docs.megaglest.org/Addons), so just put it in your /addons folder and launch GAE, then choose Solunar as the tech tree.  Enjoy and leave copious feedback.  I truly appreciate all constructive critique, as it helps me improve.

Here is a link to the old thread, which is locked for posterity, as almost everything in it is irrelevant: https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=3811.0 (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=3811.0)

Download Solunar Alpha 1 here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?llvcv4j34i2ghj1)

Download Solunar Alpha 1a (bug fix for some GAE revisions) here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?b5z9o2rlnltakv0)

This is currently an alpha.  Not all units are finished, and so far it's only a single faction.  More will come later.  However, what is included should be good, so let me know what's wrong and what you think I should do about it.

To do:
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 11 February 2012, 06:57:59
I excitedly rushed to download this, but when I fired up GAE an error message got me.

(click to show/hide)

EDIT: I unziped it and it worked.... I thought GAE was meant to support 7zips? :S
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 11 February 2012, 07:30:08
Thanks for the catch.  It plays fine for me, so I'm not sure what's happening there. :confused: I guess whatever version you have may be more picky than the git version I have.  As a band-aid solution, I changed that image to a PNG and changed the reference in those particle files.  The other missing images are known issues, but shouldn't cause a crash (they should just show up as polka dots).  Just in case, I put a placeholder there now.

Either way, let me know if this works: http://www.mediafire.com/?b5z9o2rlnltakv0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?b5z9o2rlnltakv0)

Quote from: Psychedelic_hands on 11 February 2012, 06:57:59
EDIT: I unziped it and it worked.... I thought GAE was meant to support 7zips? :S
Weird. :-\  I tested it exactly how it was before I uploaded it, still compressed and everything.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 11 February 2012, 08:04:44
Quote from: John.d.h on 11 February 2012, 07:30:08
Thanks for the catch.  It plays fine for me, so I'm not sure what's happening there. :confused: I guess whatever version you have may be more picky than the git version I have.  As a band-aid solution, I changed that image to a PNG and changed the reference in those particle files.  The other missing images are known issues, but shouldn't cause a crash (they should just show up as polka dots).  Just in case, I put a placeholder there now.

Either way, let me know if this works: http://www.mediafire.com/?b5z9o2rlnltakv0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?b5z9o2rlnltakv0)

Quote from: Psychedelic_hands on 11 February 2012, 06:57:59
EDIT: I unziped it and it worked.... I thought GAE was meant to support 7zips? :S
Weird. :-\  I tested it exactly how it was before I uploaded it, still compressed and everything.

Hmmm, oh well. I'm not fussed about having to extract mods before I play them ;).

I played a game, lost almost straight away haha. From what I can tell so far the gameplay looks a lot different from other glest mods, which is great! My main issue with the game though is the lack of sounds, I mean atlest add some music. Sound is half the experience for me.
Other than that and a few textures which could be improved, everything looks great. Can't wait to see more man.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Hagekura on 11 February 2012, 08:07:44
So it's a succession mod of the your former Sun and Moon project? Congrats for the revival!
The buildings looks fantastic. also The soldier units are very appealing to me. I'll definitely check it out!
Hopefully it will run without any fault in my PC. :angel:
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Mr War on 11 February 2012, 10:44:16
Looks fabtastic, great quality of work man. Looking forward to playing it.

Is it magitech compatible?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 11 February 2012, 13:26:09
Quote from: Mr War on 11 February 2012, 10:44:16
Looks fabtastic, great quality of work man. Looking forward to playing it.

Is it magitech compatible?
No, it goes in its own tech tree, which should eventually have more than one faction.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 16 February 2012, 03:37:11
Thanks for the feedback, everybody!  Keep it coming. :)  I've been bringing my laptop to work and doing a little modding between phone time (I work in a call center), so I've made more content just in the past month or so than I did in the whole year prior, so expect to see more updates soon.

A question, though: how often would y'all like to see new releases?  That is, how much new content would warrant downloading and playing it again?  Whenever there is a whole new unit; or for less dramatic things like balance changes, icons, upgrades, etc.; or maybe on a regular schedule (e.g. weekly, bi-weekly)?

Quote from: Psychedelic_hands on 11 February 2012, 08:04:44
I played a game, lost almost straight away haha. From what I can tell so far the gameplay looks a lot different from other glest mods, which is great!
Sweet.  I've got a few more ideas for making it even more different, but they come down to whether or not I can effectively balance them.

Quote
My main issue with the game though is the lack of sounds, I mean atlest add some music. Sound is half the experience for me.
Other than that and a few textures which could be improved, everything looks great. Can't wait to see more man.
Yeah, sounds are definitely going to be hard, since I'm going for the whole do-everything-myself approach, so those will probably be the very last thing to get added.  I know about the Therian's texture, but what others would you like to see improved?

Quote from: Hagekura on 11 February 2012, 08:07:44
So it's a succession mod of the your former Sun and Moon project? Congrats for the revival!
The buildings looks fantastic. also The soldier units are very appealing to me. I'll definitely check it out!
Hopefully it will run without any fault in my PC. :angel:
Did you get a chance to try it yet?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: wciow on 16 February 2012, 11:16:20
I downloaded and played a quick game with the Solunar techtree. Moon is a nice faction overall but textures could be a little less bland. Why is the broch so big?

Quote from: John.d.h on 16 February 2012, 03:37:11
A question, though: how often would y'all like to see new releases? 

I think that you should just update us whenever you have finished a couple more units  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: lazyanttu on 16 February 2012, 12:33:19
Quote from: wciow on 16 February 2012, 11:16:20
I think that you should just update us whenever you have finished a couple more units  :thumbup:

I agree, small balance changes (especially if there is lot of them coming) are perhaps too small things to update. I think that it is best if you update after every big change (just like adding few units, major fixes and so on).
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 17 February 2012, 04:27:11
Quote from: wciow on 16 February 2012, 11:16:20
I downloaded and played a quick game with the Solunar techtree. Moon is a nice faction overall but textures could be a little less bland.
Thanks for pointing that out.  I know they are an area that is lacking, but I'm not quite sure what they need. :-\  Since you're the texture expert, do you pointing out some specific examples that should be improved, and providing some tips on how to go about that?

Quote
Why is the broch so big?
Because it's a big, impregnable fortress (and I'm also somewhat proud of it, so I like to show it off :)).  This is somewhat analogous to the castle/fortress from some of the "Age of..." games.  It holds units, is very hard to destroy (which is why this faction needs more siege units), and represents the pinnacle of their structural engineering.  With that in mind, does it seem excessively big?

Quote from: lazyanttu on 16 February 2012, 12:33:19
Quote from: wciow on 16 February 2012, 11:16:20
I think that you should just update us whenever you have finished a couple more units  :thumbup:
I agree, small balance changes (especially if there is lot of them coming) are perhaps too small things to update. I think that it is best if you update after every big change (just like adding few units, major fixes and so on).
Sounds like a plan!
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 17 February 2012, 07:28:44
Why not at least add in some music? http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/index.html?genre=Soundtrack (http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/index.html?genre=Soundtrack) Take two minutes :P Five if you're picky ;).

About textures things like wood on the columns could use a more realistic texture.  Add in some more big details to things instead of lots of tiny little ones.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 17 February 2012, 18:59:17
Quote from: Psychedelic_hands on 17 February 2012, 07:28:44
Why not at least add in some music? http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/index.html?genre=Soundtrack (http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/index.html?genre=Soundtrack) Take two minutes :P Five if you're picky ;).
Since I'm doing everything myself, music is going to be the biggest sticking point.  Sounds and music might be the only thing I'll have to compromise on.  I can probably get a decent microphone to record some sounds, and synthesize some metal sounds (http://opengameart.org/forumtopic/power-station-industrializer-procedural-metal-hit-sounds), but I'm currently looking into how much it would cost to commission a piece for the background music (then at least it's original and I would own the full rights).

Quote
About textures things like wood on the columns could use a more realistic texture.  Add in some more big details to things instead of lots of tiny little ones.
You can't get much more realistic than a photograph! :O I'll see what I can do about those, though.  Maybe they need to look a little more dingy and "outdoorsy"?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 18 February 2012, 06:21:53
Well, place holder music then ? :-\

Well I mean, the details in the textures are so small, they look like solid colours from a distance. Thats kinda what I mean by Big details  :scared:.... Hard to explain.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: ElimiNator on 18 February 2012, 17:56:26
what gae features did you use in this tech?

And Psychedelic_hands can you rate this faction according to this criteria (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5682.msg58484#msg58484)?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Omega on 18 February 2012, 18:44:27
Quote from: ElimiNator on 18 February 2012, 17:56:26
And Psychedelic_hands can you rate this faction according to this criteria (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5682.msg58484#msg58484)?
Firstly, how does one rate such an earlier work in progress? Secondly, that rating system is broken, in my opinion. There's just too many differing ways a faction's appeal could be measured, and weighting of categories varies amongst gamers.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 18 February 2012, 20:41:40
Quote from: ElimiNator on 18 February 2012, 17:56:26
what gae features did you use in this tech?
Unit loading (the Broch can hold up to 12 units), emanations (Squire and Lifespring), effects (emanations as well as a few upcoming units), water travel (upcoming unit), hidden resources (currently useless, will be used for heroes), cast-spell skill (Therian, upcoming units), tags (in upcoming release).  Just about everything, it seems. :O

Quote from: Psychedelic_hands on 18 February 2012, 06:21:53
Well, place holder music then ? :-\
We'll see.

Quote
Well I mean, the details in the textures are so small, they look like solid colours from a distance. Thats kinda what I mean by Big details  :scared:.... Hard to explain.
Okay, I think I know what you mean.  I'll see what I can do with those.  I might just have to increase the contrast and scale them up a bit or something.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 February 2012, 03:51:07
Quote from: Omega on 18 February 2012, 18:44:27
Quote from: ElimiNator on 18 February 2012, 17:56:26
And Psychedelic_hands can you rate this faction according to this criteria (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5682.msg58484#msg58484)?
Firstly, how does one rate such an earlier work in progress? Secondly, that rating system is broken, in my opinion. There's just too many differing ways a faction's appeal could be measured, and weighting of categories varies amongst gamers.
Well this system just rates the content. Can a GAE user do it?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 19 February 2012, 05:14:11
Rating the content doesn't do me any good, at least.  I need more specific critique if I'm to improve anything -- i.e. what specifically needs to be fixed, and what about it could be better.

If you're wanting it to be rated for the benefit of potential players, let me save you the trouble.  If you're looking to play a faction that is still very much in development, that has not been balanced at all, that is missing several important units, that currently has no sound or music, but for which you want to provide useful feedback (and therefore help make the result better), then play this mod.  If you're looking for something to play for the sake of play, wait until it's done.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Hagekura on 19 February 2012, 21:13:43
Quote from: John.d.h on 16 February 2012, 03:37:11
Quote from: Hagekura on 11 February 2012, 08:07:44
So it's a succession mod of the your former Sun and Moon project? Congrats for the revival!
The buildings looks fantastic. also The soldier units are very appealing to me. I'll definitely check it out!
Hopefully it will run without any fault in my PC. :angel:
Did you get a chance to try it yet?
Sure. I had to extract the techtree to play this mod (Put the Archive into Addons folder didn't work for me), but I could play.
And here are my feedbacks:
I'm looking forward to development of this mod. keep up the good job!
Oops, I forgot to mention that the Dire Wolves don't have teamcolors.
What do you think about add them some rings on their necks or legs, or add Bardings, or add teamcolor unit particles?
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: ElimiNator on 20 February 2012, 04:21:50
Quote from: John.d.h on 19 February 2012, 05:14:11
Rating the content doesn't do me any good, at least.  I need more specific critique if I'm to improve anything -- i.e. what specifically needs to be fixed, and what about it could be better.

If you're wanting it to be rated for the benefit of potential players, let me save you the trouble.  If you're looking to play a faction that is still very much in development, that has not been balanced at all, that is missing several important units, that currently has no sound or music, but for which you want to provide useful feedback (and therefore help make the result better), then play this mod.  If you're looking for something to play for the sake of play, wait until it's done.
Ok, Ill just say in-progress, till a beta.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 20 February 2012, 18:06:46
@Hagekura: Thanks a lot; that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for! :)  I fixed the posture of the units as per your feedback, but I still need to add some team color to the Dire Wolf.  Realistically, I probably need to redo the texture anyway.  Ditto for the faces.

@Eliminator: Sounds good.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: ElimiNator on 28 February 2012, 17:30:28
Looks good, but the Kern guy in moon looks like he has a sore arm!
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 28 February 2012, 18:23:30
Quote from: ElimiNator on 28 February 2012, 17:30:28
Looks good, but the Kern guy in moon looks like he has a sore arm!
Haha yeah, I think maybe some of the units should relax a little more.  Maybe I'll use the "arm pulled back, ready to throw" pose for charging, and give him a more casual pose for standing around and walking, like what I did with the Squire's sword arm.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 March 2012, 07:36:30
I think it's a great start for an Alpha, but it's still lacking in almost all areas.
I suggest:
-Working on the humanoid form, your guys seem like teenagers to me, just too skinny and lacking in true muscle. I recommend getting a diagram of a human male(preferably non-nude) and setting it as your blender background, using a gun diagram to design a gun really helped. :)

-For humanoid movement animations, look at how you run, check out videos on youtube of peoples running animation, find every detail of a running person and animate in progressive, logical, stages. Like first do the feet, just make his feet realistic. Then make the lower back move, then the upper back, then correct the head, and finally make the arms move. Also check out Magitechs animations, they were well done and are a good learning template.

-Take notice of speed. Some animations like dying animations, lack that UMPH that looks devastating. Keyframes closer together with farther movement will give more speed. After you animate, go back and correct some keyframe placements to gain a more realistic and differentiated look. Then your units will truly hit the dust. :)

-For textures, try some of GIMP's nice tiled patterns, worked into pictures(use opacity to blend them). I recommend good use of the blur/smear tools to get rid of seams. Another tool I recommend is the free select, it is just great for getting specific jobs done. I also think some basic color correction helps in the overall look. GIMP also has a Bump Map Filter which combined with the free select tool and good use of the filter can make a texture look much less flat.

-The standing animations were somewhat strange. :look: I recommend spending a minute to make a nice pose, then copy it to the end of your animation(frame 6,8, or 10 recommended), in between edit the pose to look like he's inhaled. When you're done he'll be standing and breathing nicely.

I agree with the other guys, I think you should put a placeholder soundtrack in there. Music is a must-have for me.  :D
I hope I didn't sound harsh or cruel anywhere. :-X
Good luck with the mod man!
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: wciow on 2 March 2012, 13:28:31
Quote from: -Archmage- on  2 March 2012, 07:36:30
-Working on the humanoid form, your guys seem like teenagers to me, just too skinny and lacking in true muscle.

I disagree, I like the lithe nature of john's humaniod. It makes a refreshing change from the short stocky units in almost all other mods.

Quote from: -Archmage-
-For humanoid movement animations, look at how you run...

Good advice Archmage. I thought the running animation of your spearman was excellent  :thumbup:

Quote from: -Archmage-
-Take notice of speed. Some animations like dying animations, lack that UMPH that looks devastating.

Exactly right, most death animations in Glest mods (including my own) look more like the victim is relaxing into an easy chair than being killed. It can be difficult to find that sweet spot between too slow, which looks like the unit is floating down, and too fast, which looks like they've been splatted to the ground by a bullet train!

Quote from: -Archmage-
-For textures, try some of GIMP's nice tiled patterns...

Gimp is certainly the best program to use. It has many plugins that can effortlessly create good quality textures.
My own advice would be:

1) always use shadowing/highlights. Adding drop shadows and highlights is the main way to give depth to a 2d texture. Relief/emboss are good tools to use for this.

2) Use noise on empty areas of the texture. You'll be amazed at how this works. Flat colours in textures usually look wrong since not much that we see is really totally flat in colour. Adding noise to the texture just makes it look right to the eye.

Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 March 2012, 15:09:24
Quote from: wciow on  2 March 2012, 13:28:31
Quote from: -Archmage- on  2 March 2012, 07:36:30
-Working on the humanoid form, your guys seem like teenagers to me, just too skinny and lacking in true muscle.

I disagree, I like the lithe nature of john's humaniod. It makes a refreshing change from the short stocky units in almost all other mods.

It is definitely different that what we've been seeing, but I think boosting the muscles so they actually look like warriors would be good.

Quote from: wciow
Quote from: -Archmage-

    -For humanoid movement animations, look at how you run...

Good advice Archmage. I thought the running animation of your spearman was excellent  :thumbup:

Thanks man, I still have some improvements in mind for it...

Quote
Quote from: -Archmage-

    -Take notice of speed. Some animations like dying animations, lack that UMPH that looks devastating.

Exactly right, most death animations in Glest mods (including my own) look more like the victim is relaxing into an easy chair than being killed. It can be difficult to find that sweet spot between too slow, which looks like the unit is floating down, and too fast, which looks like they've been splatted to the ground by a bullet train!

Honestly I think reality is a lot faster than we think. Magitech is a good standard for animation, all of their animations are well done.

@GIMP: Don't forget the Free Select Tool!  ;D
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Omega on 2 March 2012, 22:05:09
Concerning the humanoid style, I'm all for a ninja-like litheness, but agree they could use just a little bit more muscles on the arms and legs.

As for death animations, balance is really hard to find because there's so many ways for a unit to die. For the most part, however, with a unit simply falling to die, a human body really should fall quite fast.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 3 March 2012, 02:11:58
Quote from: Omega on  2 March 2012, 22:05:09
Concerning the humanoid style, I'm all for a ninja-like litheness, but agree they could use just a little bit more muscles on the arms and legs.

It's not just the muscles that are the issue IMO, I think its more the lack of clothing and armour definition. I mean, you csn't see your muscles much if you're wearing armour? A simple loop cut or two close together, scaled a bit can made things look so much better. I know it might seem a bit pointless for an RTS, but it totally helps. Though I always try to exaggerate a bit just to make it more visible.

Edit: Unless it's one of the shirtless units,  in that case I'm all for some more muscles.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 3 March 2012, 03:36:07
Awesome critiques, guys!  So what's I've gathered so far is that the models need more definition (clothing or muscles, where applicable), the textures likely need to be redone altogether (I figure it's easier to redo them than fix them at this point), the speed of the death animations needs to be modified, the walking animations look jerky and weird, and there needs to be something to fill the silence in the background.   Did I miss anything?

I think what I might do is make a few different but interchangeable base models (the Kern should be fairly slim, while the Savage should be burly), with a few modifications here and there.  I think the Gallowglass definitely needs his own model so he looks as armored as his XML says he is, and I'm actually thinking of completely scrapping the Therian's current model for something more "low fantasy" (like a dude wearing bear skins, rather than an actual werebear).  As for the textures, I can hopefully make some high-detail (multi-res) versions of those base models, so the textures will practically make themselves at that point.  Anyway, thanks for all the advice!  I will definitely be taking it into consideration. :)

I'm kinda split between two different development philosophies -- "done is better than perfect" (i.e. finish making everything first, then go back and perfect it later), and "it's easier to fix it while you're still working on it" (i.e. fix it as you go along, or else be overwhelmed by having to fix everything at the end).  I'm trying to find a good balance between the two. :-\
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: -Archmage- on 3 March 2012, 03:54:05
I think you should prioritize the gameplay and XML parts first. Then after you've gained more experience (after you've constructed all the factions basically), you should go back and redo/touch-up the artwork. It's alot easier to go back over it and play with old art(more fun too), than to try to do it really good in the beginning. If you push really hard and do it mostly all at once you'll get progressively better, and one faction will look nicer than the other.
Title: Re: Solunar
Post by: John.d.h on 3 March 2012, 04:03:35
The gameplay and XML is basically done for this faction, pending more play-testing.  In fact, the alpha left out a few units that already "work" (Fay, Hag, Savage) but just don't have any art.  The only units that aren't working are the Basilisk, which I think I'm dropping entirely, and the heroes, which I think I might postpone until after Sun is released (and knowing me, that could be decades :O).