MegaGlest Forum

Modding and game content creation => Mods => Topic started by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 02:43:56

Title: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 02:43:56
This is a thread dedicated to the redevelopment of the MegaGlest "Norse" faction. Feel free to post ideas related to them here.

Tech Tree Info and Structure (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B_exswRUbeQBSaQZD9CI0M2oYALsrnl2C353r-sI65g/edit)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 03:06:56
What about my name change suggestion? Norse specifically means from Norway. That's not gonna work, and that's 1 reason it didn't fit in MG at all.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: John.d.h on 19 December 2012, 03:41:16
What about my name change suggestion? Norse specifically means from Norway. That's not gonna work, and that's 1 reason it didn't fit in MG at all.
According to my cursory research (i.e. looking up the term "Norse" on dictionary.com and Wikipedia), "Norse" refers to the people and cultures of Scandinavia in general, especially before they converted to Christianity.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 03:43:54
First lets agree on the names/amount of factions/what they will be like.

Then we will plan the tech trees.

Then art can be made.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 03:54:56
Zoythrus, luisconnelly, Psycho Hands, MightyMic, and have got a skype and dropbox setup and we're going to develop the "Norse" faction. The name can be decided on, we have plenty of time to get that locked down.

Elim, after or near the completion of Norse, I'd like to start working on Rome with you. How bout it?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 04:39:08
Zoythrus, luisconnelly, Psycho Hands, MightyMic, and have got a skype and dropbox setup and we're going to develop the "Norse" faction. The name can be decided on, we have plenty of time to get that locked down.

Elim, after or near the completion of Norse, I'd like to start working on Rome with you. How bout it?
Of course, I don't think any faction will be done by one person, people will offer to do certain things.
Also if an anim or model can be done better it should be because we want this to be awesome, so nobody should be offended if someone makes a better model or anim than theirs, or modifies it.

Maybe we should do one faction at a time starting with Norse?
Or multiple at a time?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 19 December 2012, 04:53:37
That sounds good Elim, Lets make it as much of a community project as possible. Everyone should be added to the drop box.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 05:14:59
Okay, here is my rough draft of the tech tree.

(http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Zoythrus/Norse_zps4866b649.png)

It should be pretty self-explanatory.

Now, some concepts that I had thought of:
The Axeman (not the thrower), should have the ability to harvest wood much like a Thrull (maybe even better than). It makes total sense, both in story and historically. They often used their axes to chop wood (and other sorts of things) when not in combat.

The Axe Thrower should get a combat bonus against flying units, seeing as the Norse will be getting nothing of the sort.

The Huskarls irl had giant axes (or dual hand axes) that could easily pierce armor, so they should get a bonus against armored units.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 19 December 2012, 05:20:12

The Axeman (not the thrower), should have the ability to harvest wood much like a Thrull (maybe even better than). It makes total sense, both in story and historically. They often used their axes to chop wood (and other sorts of things) when not in combat.


Maybe in the story and Historically. But gameplay wise it is unnecessary float for no reason. I wholehearted oppose this idea forever.
(Sorry)

One of the main reason I kinda dislike 0 .A.Ds gameplay.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 05:22:35
Well doesn’t matter to me, I think the tech tree should be bigger but that is a start.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 19 December 2012, 06:23:57

The Axeman (not the thrower), should have the ability to harvest wood much like a Thrull (maybe even better than). It makes total sense, both in story and historically. They often used their axes to chop wood (and other sorts of things) when not in combat.


Maybe in the story and Historically. But gameplay wise it is unnecessary float for no reason. I wholehearted oppose this idea forever.
(Sorry)
The problem I see is that the AI cannot play a worker-style unit with an attack correctly. I'm not sure about the Norse, but I was under the impression that battleaxes aren't generally used for cutting wood.

And in response to Zoy's draft, I rather like the base concept. The names, of course, could use a lot of fiddling around with (am I the only one who'd like to see something other than castle as the main building, as Tech uses a building of the same name?). I'd also like to bring up the discussion of hero units again. Will we be considering giving each faction a hero unit? If so, the valkyrie could be a good choice, allowing it to be rightfully powerful.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 06:30:54
Okay Omega, we REALLY need to do something about the AI's use of combat workers. I want the Norse to rely more upon wood for structures and units, so it seemed like a really good idea to have one of their basic infantry to be a wood harvester (since it makes sense). Also, the axes that they used were good for both combat and chopping wood, historically.

Now, the names are placeholders. If you have any better ideas, I'll keep them in mind. I would like more "Norse-ish" names, if possible.

About heroes, we agreed that if we had a hero, it'd either be a Jarl (a Nordic earl) or Thor. The Valkyrie will either be an awesome medic or (if I get my way) a unit that can resurrect the dead (I'm hoping on coding this feature).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 06:42:51
Since I'm gonna be doing the art, I'll tell you whatt...

THOR!!!! Guy goes into a bar, buys a statue. Godly dude at his computer clicks the release thor icon. Statues rumbles and cracks, and eventually it crumbles and thor walks down the base of the statue and his hammer flies into his hand. Sick? Yes!?

I like the idea of infantry chopping wood, very realistic. Unique touch. Am whoteheartedly in favor of this!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 07:44:13
Here's another idea that we want to run past y'all:

Two of their buildings will be upgradeable (morphable):

Hovel -> Cottage -> Farm (greater Food production and HP)
Camp -> Fort -> Citadel (This is their only defense, need I say more?)

Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 19 December 2012, 12:57:21
Two of their buildings will be upgradeable (morphable):

Hovel -> Cottage -> Farm (greater Food production and HP)
Camp -> Fort -> Citadel (This is their only defense, need I say more?)
I like, but bear in mind that the morphed building can't change in size and if a unit has a building as a prerequisite (in the way that a guard needs a blacksmith), morphing buildings makes it much harder to work those prerequisites in, since the new morphed unit doesn't count as whatever it previously was. A feature request allowing an "or" in those prerequisites (hovel OR cottage) would help. Or we can just have no units depend on that building, but could be potentially limiting.

Personally, I like the idea of a Jarl being the hero rather than Thor. Thor's too well known as a Norse god, whereas a Jarl, as proven by Skyrim, fits in any universe (ay, the hold of Whiterun be mine!). That's just me, personally, though. Thor is a good contender as well.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 13:49:34
I'll do whichever as epically as I can, I'm doing a lot of the character modelling.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 14:21:30
Base Male Model Art Showcase:

(http://i50.tinypic.com/qsk0wl.gif)

Detailed Post (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8784.msg85535#new)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 15:40:24
Arch, you need to teach Elim how to animate like that! Then, this community will have two epic animators!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 18:40:03
I may make a tutorial. Only problem is that this took over an hour to animate. But if you sit down just jump in and work swiftly it's probably 30-40 minutes.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 19:43:16
hey guys, here's a link to the Google doc! I would suggest that all factions have a doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B_exswRUbeQBSaQZD9CI0M2oYALsrnl2C353r-sI65g/edit
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 22:43:55
New animation! Jogging!
This will also be included with the future community release of this model!

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2wg4oy1.gif)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 20 December 2012, 10:03:12
hey guys, here's a link to the Google doc! I would suggest that all factions have a doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B_exswRUbeQBSaQZD9CI0M2oYALsrnl2C353r-sI65g/edit
Agreed. By the way, folks, if you have a Google account, you can make comments on the document by selecting text to comment on and clicking the "insert comment" button (ctrl + alt + m). It provides an easy way to sort comments about the techtree. If issues regarding your comment are resolved, click the "resolve" button on the top corner of your comment to hide it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 20 December 2012, 18:00:30
Personally I don't like the name Stave Church, and I think there should be Thor.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 20 December 2012, 19:30:40
Personally I don't like the name Stave Church, and I think there should be Thor.

Stave Church is unique, and accurately related. It should stay, but what do you have in mind for replacement?

Thor? I think I'll put up a poll...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Perplesso on 21 December 2012, 14:07:46
Personally I don't like the name Stave Church, and I think there should be Thor.

Stave Church is unique, and accurately related. It should stay, but what do you have in mind for replacement?

Thor? I think I'll put up a poll...

Why not "Stavkirke" ("Stave Church" in Norwegian)?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 21 December 2012, 16:21:17
Personally I don't like the name Stave Church, and I think there should be Thor.

Stave Church is unique, and accurately related. It should stay, but what do you have in mind for replacement?

Thor? I think I'll put up a poll...

Why not "Stavkirke" ("Stave Church" in Norwegian)?

I'm good with either!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 21 December 2012, 17:41:06
Personally I don't like the name Stave Church, and I think there should be Thor.

Stave Church is unique, and accurately related. It should stay, but what do you have in mind for replacement?

Thor? I think I'll put up a poll...

Why not "Stavkirke" ("Stave Church" in Norwegian)?
I'm not sure about using foreign words that wouldn't be commonplace. They make things confusing. Personally, I'm fine with Stave Church, but as always, we're open to suggestions, right?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 21 December 2012, 18:42:26
I like using the Norwegian name, except for the fact that I want some naming standard. If one thing is in Norwegian, then all of it will have to be in Norwegian.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 21 December 2012, 18:44:58
This is looking a lot like Tech.... I think the Fort/Defense building, should be the main building. The disadvantage being that they do not have a small building for defense, and that their defense won't be able to fight when it's producing. It will also be very expensive to build another one!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 24 December 2012, 07:05:47
I won't get to UV the man before christmas, sorry. Anyone else is free to if they'd like.
But I did finish my house last night (I think).
Here's a few quick snaps:

(click to show/hide)

Any feedback is much appreciated. Especially the kind which helps me improve it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: MuwuM on 24 December 2012, 09:20:01
the house looks awesome ;-)

the only thing that I noticed is that the hay above the door doesn't really fit to the other hay ... could be solved with a bit modification in the texture...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Hagekura on 24 December 2012, 12:24:38
I won't get to UV the man before christmas, sorry. Anyone else is free to if they'd like.
But I did finish my house last night (I think).
Here's a few quick snaps:

(click to show/hide)

Any feedback is much appreciated. Especially the kind which helps me improve it.
Woww great! This is one of the best building models for glest I've seen so far.
If you keep going with this quality, the MG refit project will get a great success.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 20:56:01
Hey guys, obviously, Christmas caused a bit of a lull. I think we need to finalize the techtree.

According to the Google doc, this is what we have so far:

(http://i.imgur.com/X6Sb1.png)
(the status of the Jarl is unknown and the food production is assumed)

This is my alternative proposal:

(http://i.imgur.com/r1jk7.png)

It's not a big change. The production of the huskarl, battering ram, and raider are moved to a new building (working name: arsenal). This is done because you can't produce and attack at the same time, and I fear the AI wouldn't use the defensive buildings correctly then. Likewise, they don't need an upgrade. As well, to make the cottage and farm worthwhile morphs, they will gain upgrades of their own in addition to producing more food (the price of the produced food would increase, but it'd be "more bang for your buck"). This makes them more worthwhile to get. The castle is renamed to longhouse, which I feel is more fitting, but it doesn't really matter much. The Jarl will be produced from this longhouse/castle, as he's the leader and the longhouse/castle is the main building, the heart of the faction. Finally, I don't consider the raven necessary. I see it as an unnecessary unit that the AI won't use correctly and doesn't really fit in. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Now, upgrades. We really should decide on them. I think that the Njord faction should have less upgrades than the others, focusing more on brute strength than upgrading units. Thus, I propose (all working names):
So, if we can get an agreement on the techtree layout and the upgrades, I'll create the folder structure in the repo and modify the Google doc accordingly.

I also added a column to the Google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B_exswRUbeQBSaQZD9CI0M2oYALsrnl2C353r-sI65g/edit) (as well as changed the orientation to fit more information in) for the modder. Could all modders please leave a note when they choose to make any models, so we don't end up with multiple people doing the same model or confusion as to who is doing what, etc.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: MightyMic on 29 December 2012, 00:32:36
Alright, here is what I have of the castle so far... it's a lot lighter than Hand's longhouse, so it might need re-texturing. But tell me what you think

(http://imageshack.us/a/img29/7194/castlelighttexperspecti.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img593/2158/castlelighttexside.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img825/73/castlelighttexfront.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 29 December 2012, 00:38:16
Looking good, maybe add barrels or weapons around it, and yes darker texture.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 29 December 2012, 00:53:34
The area near the door shows the wood as being very thin for such a large building. Perhaps thicken that area or add a vertical log. And how tall is this building? The door should be at least two Blender units tall, to fit a humanoid unit. It might be necessary to raise the roof over the door if it's not at least two units tall. I agree, the texture could be a bit darker, which could be as simple as tweaking the levels of the textures.

As per eliminator, barrels or weapons on the walls could look really good. There's some shields and axes on the WIP armory model in the repo if you want to use those. But anyway, nice work.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 29 December 2012, 03:04:17
Nice job again Omega  :thumbup:. I agree with almost everything you said.

MightyMic, nice! Maybe try experimenting with gimps colour tools to see if you can't get your textures to sit better with each other. It's like painting, your palette is the most important part. Also use a Lattice modifier to give your second roof a bit nicer shape. And adding more detail to it as well maybe because it looks sort of dodgy compared to your other roof.The top of the building looks great, just the base needs some work.

And of course what Omega and Elim said. But don't make it too dark. I've tested my building out in GAE and it looks fine, but I suspect it will look too dark in MG... I may have to change it.
Make it a bit longer too, it's a bit wide to be a long house ;).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 29 December 2012, 05:17:47
I agree with Omega. One big thing I noticed is that the thatch/hay 'secondary roof' just cuts off. I suggest use of my armory texture for the hay, it's pretty much tileable horizontally and it has alpha'd out bits of straw, that look more realistic.

I plan Njord to have 1 folder for all models and textures, that way we can use bits of other textures and get better graphics and better loading times!

The textures look pretty low resolution, I'll check it out in Blender though. A tip: Use tileable textures! One of my mountain models in JungleHD has a massively sharp texture only because it is tiled well. To tile something simply scale the UV up and you'll notice that in Blender when you go past the edge of the texture it starts to tile. This effect transfers perfectly into Glest. As to generating seamless textures, you can use the Make Seamless filter in GIMP for a quick, cheap and dirty job, or you can get the resynthesizer plugin for GIMP (http://registry.gimp.org/node/25219) which does a terrific job!
Another important thing to do is to optimize the UV, aim to have little space that is not used!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 29 December 2012, 19:48:03
Hey Omega, I can agree with you on all of the stuff that you said, sans some of the upgrade names (I know that they're WIP, but still). Things like "Leadership" and "Gates of Valhalla" could use better names, such as "Heart of a Warrior" and "Valhalla's Blessing" respectively. The other ones sound like upgrades you'd find in the Vbros packs (no offense, Vbros).

There was a unit that we didn't add to the doc which Arch, Hands, and I had discussed - the Berserker. After the Stave Church has been created, Spearmen and Axemen could turn into these guys, which would get improved strength (across the board, so they lose their specialties), and maybe get enhanced HP and regen. As an added bonus, I was thinking about having them lose their "infantry" status, meaning that there's no effective counter (aside from just beating their skulls in).

The Ravens aren't necessary, they were just in there as an idea.

EDIT: I noticed massive similarities in the names of the "Axeman" and "Axe Thrower," so I renamed the latter to "Skirmisher." That should eliminate any confusion.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 29 December 2012, 23:37:01
There was a unit that we didn't add to the doc which Arch, Hands, and I had discussed - the Berserker. After the Stave Church has been created, Spearmen and Axemen could turn into these guys, which would get improved strength (across the board, so they lose their specialties), and maybe get enhanced HP and regen. As an added bonus, I was thinking about having them lose their "infantry" status, meaning that there's no effective counter (aside from just beating their skulls in).
I like the concept of the berserker. I'm not sure what you mean by "lose their infantry status", though. Do you mean to give them an armour type that doesn't have the same weaknesses? Personally, while I think the berserker shouldn't care about pain, I don't think they should be more immune to damage. If anything, their extreme strength should be offset with weaker defensive. In fact, an interesting concept might be a unit with average HP, very high strength, very low armor (and possibly a more vulnerable armour style, such as organic), and a very high HP regeneration. The high HP regeneration would be the most interesting concept. They die fast if you concentrate on them, but if left alone, they can wreck havoc.

At any rate, I always imagined berserkers as people who disregarded their personal safety for aggression.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 29 December 2012, 23:52:03
There was a unit that we didn't add to the doc which Arch, Hands, and I had discussed - the Berserker. After the Stave Church has been created, Spearmen and Axemen could turn into these guys, which would get improved strength (across the board, so they lose their specialties), and maybe get enhanced HP and regen. As an added bonus, I was thinking about having them lose their "infantry" status, meaning that there's no effective counter (aside from just beating their skulls in).
I like the concept of the berserker. I'm not sure what you mean by "lose their infantry status", though. Do you mean to give them an armour type that doesn't have the same weaknesses? Personally, while I think the berserker shouldn't care about pain, I don't think they should be more immune to damage. If anything, their extreme strength should be offset with weaker defensive. In fact, an interesting concept might be a unit with average HP, very high strength, very low armor (and possibly a more vulnerable armour style, such as organic), and a very high HP regeneration. The high HP regeneration would be the most interesting concept. They die fast if you concentrate on them, but if left alone, they can wreck havoc.

At any rate, I always imagined berserkers as people who disregarded their personal safety for aggression.
Yes, you're right, I meant that phrase as "they are no longer deemed 'infantry'."

If the idea I posted wasn't well received, I would have done something very similar to what you had suggested. To be honest, though, I think that a unit that had no "type" would be a very interesting concept. That would mean that there's no effective counter aside from just attacking them until they die. Maybe we can keep that idea around for another faction's heavy infantry.

EDIT: Due to similarities with the units of other factions, I have made the "Spearman" into a "Halberdier."

SECOND EDIT: Arch told me that he thinks we should only have the hovel go up one level, to the cottage. Two levels for the hovel, but three for the camp.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 03:07:51
I kinda think the citadel is too strong, and simply that we should only have 2 defense units. Especially considering this faction is supposed to have weak defense.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 1 January 2013, 03:13:06
I kinda think the citadel is too strong, and simply that we should only have 2 defense units. Especially considering this faction is supposed to have weak defense.
Would be fine by me. The Romans should be the defensively strong faction, anyway.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 03:53:15
I kinda think the citadel is too strong, and simply that we should only have 2 defense units. Especially considering this faction is supposed to have weak defense.
Would be fine by me. The Romans should be the defensively strong faction, anyway.

I think Romans should have highest defense and second highest attack, matched by a longer process to get to the most powerful unit.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 06:26:05
I kinda think the citadel is too strong, and simply that we should only have 2 defense units. Especially considering this faction is supposed to have weak defense.
Would be fine by me. The Romans should be the defensively strong faction, anyway.

I think Romans should have highest defense and second highest attack, matched by a longer process to get to the most powerful unit.
The original plan was to give the player a choice: do I spend a buttload of resources to make this awesome defense, or do I use it to make an army? I wanted it to be Extremely expensive, to keep the number of defenses down, but yet if you could manage to scrounge up enough resources (and keep it alive long enough during the upgrade process), it would be worth it. Also, it's historically accurate - Vikings didnt like to fight for the same land twice.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 1 January 2013, 07:31:13
I like the Njord's current tech-tree.
It is actually something different rather than them just having "weaker defences".  The whole building upgrade system is pretty nifty, I don't think it has really been done in Glest before.  I also would vote to keep the Hovel-Cottage-Farm upgrade path, as that's something cool and unique too... Plus I ready have modeled the farm and started on the cottage...

Hopefully it will make me reminisce about my AoEII days...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 08:13:45
I like the Njord's current tech-tree.
It is actually something different rather than them just having "weaker defences".  The whole building upgrade system is pretty nifty, I don't think it has really been done in Glest before.  I also would vote to keep the Hovel-Cottage-Farm upgrade path, as that's something cool and unique too... Plus I ready have modeled the farm and started on the cottage...

Hopefully it will make me reminisce about my AoEII days...
"Different" is what we strive for. We're keeping the Citadel.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 1 January 2013, 10:07:24
So keep the citadel, but still go from cottage to hovel?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 16:59:49
If Hands has modeled it, why let it go to waste?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 19:32:25
So we're gonna give norse the best offense and the best defense because it's nifty? If we're gonna make a faction strong like that it should be the legion. They were actually that powerful.

@Hands: I'd like to switch your "farm" model to be the longhouse, and the "castle" model to be the barracks. Your longhouse model looks like a longhouse, no one in a million years would guess "farm", and I don't even think we have a 'castle' unit any longer.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 19:37:06
So we're gonna give norse the best offense and the best defense because it's nifty? If we're gonna make a faction strong like that it should be the legion. They were actually that powerful.

That's the magic of it! The only defensive structure is horrendously expensive, and only really powerful if you can level it up. So, while it may be one of the best, the Romans are going to get something even better (in offense, defense, and cost effectiveness), and it prevents you from spamming them. The underlying concept is "I have just enough resources for 1 of these things.....where to put it?"

Have some faith in me, Arch, I know what I'm doing. ;)

(oh, and to make it a little better, I've removed some of the HP, but increased the attack power. That way, it's still powerful, but ultimately reflects the faction.)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 20:17:06
Better, I'll have faith in your then.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 20:31:49
Just to be clear, taking down a Citadel is going to be an uphill battle (if not impossible) without some sort of anti-structure units (and even then, demolishing one will still be a pain!). If Glest could do achievements, taking down a Citadel single-handedly would be one.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 1 January 2013, 23:37:46
Fine. We'll have to give the defensive building slower and weaker attacks, so they can't decimate an entire army before falling. They should be helpful, not the entire defense of the base. Oh, and big. Don't want to see them spammed everywhere. Perhaps we should set a limit of one citadel, two forts, and three camps?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 January 2013, 23:54:27
Fine. We'll have to give the defensive building slower and weaker attacks, so they can't decimate an entire army before falling. They should be helpful, not the entire defense of the base. Oh, and big. Don't want to see them spammed everywhere. Perhaps we should set a limit of one citadel, two forts, and three camps?
I can agree with the 1,2,3 limits; but I want defensive structures to actually be useful against an army (not just the Njord one). Since they're structures, they're going to be difficult to topple anyways, but I want a Citadel to be able to take a few hits from a few siege engines before being felled. If you allowed a Njord/Roman player to build a super defense, you deserve to suffer to take it down!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 January 2013, 00:26:01
Yea, the max amount of defense should be able to fend off a lot. I don't like the idea of limits, then it becomes difficult to expand.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 2 January 2013, 02:10:50
Yea, the max amount of defense should be able to fend off a lot. I don't like the idea of limits, then it becomes difficult to expand.
Well, limits are generally bad, sure, but in the case of the citadel, it's too powerful to allow multiples in the same base. An alternative could be to prevent them from being built within x tiles of each other (thus ensuring that a second could only be in a new base), but that's not currently possible and seems overcomplicated. I think the limits work fine, especially since a base with a citadel and two forts is still a force to be reckoned with. An expensive force to be reckoned with. The cost of a citadel is enough that you could create a small offensive army.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 January 2013, 02:39:09
Of course you can have a citadel at one base, and 3 camps at another, then 2 forts at a third... I guess that works fine.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 2 January 2013, 07:41:08
Why does the citadel have to be a uber leet unit? If nords are meant to have weaker defenses, then having to upgrade to get a reasonable defense structure is still a downside, yet still being a unique aspect of gameplay. (Without having lame limitations put on to make things overly complex) Yah? I think that is a pretty good compromise.

@Hands: I'd like to switch your "farm" model to be the longhouse, and the "castle" model to be the barracks. Your longhouse model looks like a longhouse, no one in a million years would guess "farm", and I don't even think we have a 'castle' unit any longer.

I'm reasonably against this for a few reasons:

[big]1. I could make a much better main building than that house model, I mean... its just a house man?[/big]

2. Call it a Farm house instead of just a farm, it's a more unique name + makes sense! Names are easy to work around.
3. It's the size of Tech's farm.
4. It doesn't have a proper door.

Please let me have this one.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 2 January 2013, 08:54:28
[big]1. I could make a much better main building than that house model, I mean... its just a house man?[/big]

2. Call it a Farm house instead of just a farm, it's a more unique name + makes sense! Names are easy to work around.
3. It's the size of Tech's farm.
4. It doesn't have a proper door.

Please let me have this one.
I have to agree with Hands on this one.

And I'm neutral to the citadel issue, but Hands does have a point. The Romans are supposed to be the ones with very strong defense. Other possibilities include reducing the stats of the three defensive units so that the camp is very weak, the fortress is only about defense tower strength, and the citadel is the only critically "powerful" defense unit, but no more health than the main building. Or we could cut the citadel and give it to the legion/romans in some form or another. That would leave the Njord with two tiers. Strong, but not nearly so defensively powerful that it could wreck balance.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 January 2013, 11:11:00
Something's going to have to be added to the "farm" then. Because it doesn't resemble a 'farm' at all...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 2 January 2013, 15:53:51
I was pondering the idea of giving the citadel to the Romans before....

As I had mentioned before, I wanted to give the Njord a defense that was very strong, but the costs and time needed would make it a bit impractical, to keep the numbers down low.

To appease you all, what if I did this: I'll make the camp similar to the Defense Tower, but with a higher cost, lower HP, and a slightly weaker but faster attack. Then, the fort would be the next step up, but you'd need to have to invest a good chunk of resources and time. The fort wouldn't be uber powerful, but it could hold off an army until your troops could make it. How does that sound?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 2 January 2013, 20:32:04
I was pondering the idea of giving the citadel to the Romans before....

As I had mentioned before, I wanted to give the Njord a defense that was very strong, but the costs and time needed would make it a bit impractical, to keep the numbers down low.

To appease you all, what if I did this: I'll make the camp similar to the Defense Tower, but with a higher cost, lower HP, and a slightly weaker but faster attack. Then, the fort would be the next step up, but you'd need to have to invest a good chunk of resources and time. The fort wouldn't be uber powerful, but it could hold off an army until your troops could make it. How does that sound?
I think this is the best compromise. Others' opinions?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 2 January 2013, 20:45:27
I'll also allow both the camp and fort to store resources (to make them mini-bases). Forts will also be able to put down its weapons and train Axemen, as a compliment to its slightly weaker status (and to get troops to the enemy as fast as possible, which is what they're all about [Romans will get to be able to do all of these things, but much more efficiently]).

Just because they're cost inefficient doesn't mean that they can't be useful.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 January 2013, 20:48:21
I like it! Although I think the Defense Tower is rather weak to compare to.. :|

@Hands: Let's debate in skype and figure out where you model is going. :)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 2 January 2013, 20:56:56
Actually, I was just thinking about something!

I'm going to move the camp/fort (and the Roman Citadel) into a brand new category - "Fortress." This is different from "Towers." Fortresses are are expensive and slow to construct, but put down a very sturdy defense when they are done (and will do secondary things like store resources, train units. etc). "Towers" on the other hand are the opposite, they are much cheaper, easy to construct, and can be spammed relatively easily (also creating a sturdy defense). The "Defense Tower" would be a tower. Now, not every faction will have a Fortress defensive structure, but only the Njord will have no Towers.

Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 2 January 2013, 20:58:47
I'll also allow both the camp and fort to store resources (to make them mini-bases). Forts will also be able to put down its weapons and train Axemen, as a compliment to its slightly weaker status (and to get troops to the enemy as fast as possible, which is what they're all about [Romans will get to be able to do all of these things, but much more efficiently]).
While I agree with letting them store a small amount of resources, I strongly disagree with having them produce anything. The main issue is that you can't attack while producing, and the AI is even worse at handling this. We'd end up with a useless defensive building.

Not to mention the axeman is already produced by the armoury. What's the point of making it from a more expensive, specialized building when I could just construct another armoury (which has more versatile production, too).

Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.
They can't be too strong, though. We don't want an entire army to be decimated by a single building.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 2 January 2013, 21:01:44
Since they will have no "Towers," they're at a severe loss, since they can't defend a location without laying down a good deal of resources. I'm going to boost the stats of the Camp/Fort on the spreadsheet now, to reflect that they're going to be far above a Tower (in terms of defense), but just hard to acquire.
They can't be too strong, though. We don't want an entire army to be decimated by a single building.
A fort will be strong enough to make your opponent think twice about attacking without anti-structure units.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse(REBUILT FACTION TREE)
Post by: -Archmage- on 3 January 2013, 23:56:09
http://www.lucidchart.com/invitations/accept/50e61a80-1d80-4223-8644-36920afdae7f

Check it out!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 4 January 2013, 16:51:50
I think it's time for us to define these upgrades.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 17:27:41
I think it's time for us to define these upgrades.
Armory:
Bearded Axes - +25% damage increase for axe units.
Light the Arrows - Allows Bowmen to use their anti-structure secondary attack.
Tempered Steel - Gives a +20% increase to HP.
Immigrant Carpenters - Increases structure regen by +10 and +25% HP. 

Farmhouse:
Wasteland Survival: Increases the HP and build/repair speed of Thrulls by +150 and +25% respectively..
Mead Distilleries: Increases unit movespeed by +30% and attack speed by +20%.

Stave Church:
Berserkergang: Gives all units +5(?) HP regen.
Heart of Valor: Allows for the training of Jarls.
Vahalla's Blessing: Allows for the invocation of Valkyries and Einherjar.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 17:43:54
I line em' all except:

Bearded Axes (Since when could axes grow beards)

Immigrant Carpenters (sounds weird) How About: Advanced Carpentry

Wasteland Survival (Doesn't sound right)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 17:53:53
I line em' all except:

Bearded Axes (Since when could axes grow beards)

Immigrant Carpenters (sounds weird) How About: Advanced Carpentry

Wasteland Survival (Doesn't sound right)
*sigh*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearded_axe

When it comes to "Immigrant Carpenters," irl Norse were expert merchants; but since the Nomads have taken the role as "merchant," I wanted to reflect this trait as an influx of immigrants. Keep in mind, that "immigrant" doesn't necessarily refer to the country, but could refer to your base. Thus, the upgrade just calls for a group of professional carpenters to keep your base in check. Oh, and there is no "advanced carpentry" aside from engraving or other skill work. These carpenters are not around to make your forts look better. :P

"Wasteland Survival" is based on the idea that the Njord come from a frozen wasteland. Now, while the Njord forces you control may not currently be in said wasteland, the Thrulls can still gain important knowledge and practices gleaned from their ancestors. This upgrade reflects a giant training seminar for your Thrulls that increases their survivability and their skills with a hammer.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 18:06:38
Regardless, most people won't know everything and we don't want the upgrades sounding so funny to them do we?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 18:07:58
Regardless, most people won't know everything and we don't want the upgrades sounding so funny to them do we?

WHEN we get tooltips, it'll all make sense!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 18:19:21
More like IF...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: John.d.h on 7 January 2013, 01:23:12
Coding-related discussion has been split into another topic here (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8837) to keep it more organized.  Have a nice day.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 7 January 2013, 06:10:55
Coding-related discussion has been split into another topic here (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8837) to keep it more organized.  Have a nice day.
:thumbup:

Will you be joining our endeavor sometime? 8)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: John.d.h on 8 January 2013, 21:25:59
:thumbup:

Will you be joining our endeavor sometime? 8)
It depends on how much of my help the Hurricane Sandy recovery effort requires.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 8 January 2013, 21:27:30
:thumbup:

Will you be joining our endeavor sometime? 8)
It depends on how much of my help the Hurricane Sandy recovery effort requires.
Good guy John.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 8 January 2013, 21:48:18
:thumbup:

Will you be joining our endeavor sometime? 8)
It depends on how much of my help the Hurricane Sandy recovery effort requires.
Make us proud! :thumbup:
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 March 2013, 05:11:01
So, I've converted all of the data from the Google Spreadsheet to the XMLs, now what?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 7 March 2013, 20:23:17
So, I've converted all of the data from the Google Spreadsheet to the XMLs, now what?
DESIGN! Or create a working version with placeholder models.

Also, we need to structure the folders to share artwork. So all the models would also have to be in the same folder.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: MightyMic on 7 March 2013, 23:13:59
Spring Break's next week, so hopefully I'll get a couple of models done by then...

Good to see you guys are still working on this
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 7 March 2013, 23:35:51
Quote
create a working version with placeholder models.
Brenton is already doing this. :thumbup:

Quote
Also, we need to structure the folders to share artwork. So all the models would also have to be in the same folder.
There is a graphics folder to contain all the visual assets.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 9 March 2013, 17:13:41
Hey, Omega, the faction folders in my Google Drive folder is gone, it may need to be re-shared.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 10 March 2013, 07:20:37
I'm reuploading it now. I think this may have been my fault. I was trying to move the location of the drive folder on my computer and it wouldn't accept the new location, forcing me to disconnect the drive and reconnect it. Unfortunately, in the process, I ended up removing and replacing all the files. The files would be considered deleted on the drive. In my case, they seemed to restore from backup without needing to be reuploaded or redownloaded, and they should (soon) be considered "normal" in the drive again. I'm not sure if your computer will have to redownload them all or what, though. Sorry about that guys.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 10 March 2013, 16:27:23
Are you sure? I have yet to receive anything. It's hard to work on something that doesn't exist. ;)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 11 March 2013, 03:01:41
It's definitely there for me both on the drive and in my local folders. If it's still not working, perhaps restart Drive?

If that fails, go to Drive's options and choose to disconnect account and then re-sign in.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 11 March 2013, 15:32:03
It's definitely there for me both on the drive and in my local folders. If it's still not working, perhaps restart Drive?

If that fails, go to Drive's options and choose to disconnect account and then re-sign in.

it doesn't even show on my Google Docs page! Like, it states that the folder never existed!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 11 March 2013, 15:38:03
Oh, I see why. The folder lost its "shared" status. I'm going to need your emails again. Should be all of them...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 11 March 2013, 17:47:28
Oh, I see why. The folder lost its "shared" status. I'm going to need your emails again. Should be all of them...
Thanks, Omega!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: titi on 25 March 2013, 09:27:54
Is there any new progress to show us ?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: MightyMic on 26 March 2013, 19:47:52
As you can tell from the swarm of swift replies, little to no work has been accomplished since school started in full force. However, I still want to work on this but have had little time to sit down and actually work (on something other than school).

I believe that more has been done than what is posted on the forums, but not recently.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 30 March 2013, 03:50:26
Well our texture artist has kinda disappeared. I am very busy with school and video editing stuff. Once school stops action will pick up again.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 30 March 2013, 05:59:42
I'm also uncertain when, if ever, I'll have the time to participate more heavily on the project. At first I thought I'd be able to do some work on the side, but school and life has kept me too busy for that. Then I'd thought I'd do some during the summer, but I've seen decided to take extra classes this summer, and between that and work, I'll probably be again strapped for time. If anyone invents a way to get by without sleep, let me know.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 1 April 2013, 13:12:25
Give me a day or so and I'll have some progress to show. I haven't been able to achieve Internet access on  windows (on which dropbox is installed(Driver issues with my wifi dongle)) And everything is an uphill battle for us technologically challenged.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 April 2013, 04:08:45
Sorry that I haven't been around, guys!
I'm caught between this, school, and this indie game I'm developing.

Although, I *did* fix the Njord tech tree, so I think that they are good for testing now.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 12 April 2013, 12:08:38
OKAY, got internet connection sorted. BUT for some reason my refit folder has gone once I reconnected... which is strange because it said that it was infact syncing....

Cancel that, working now... Although I lost all my work... BUT I think I can get it back by carefully navigating the depths of google drive.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Omega on 12 April 2013, 13:19:38
If anyone is having problems downloading the folder, here's a backup as of 13:16 UTC 12 April 2013

https://mega.co.nz/#!1d9UxbrZ!DySrhDtX2p3W9PDs1Y7xGXwn5alFJ3kdir6xN9quGlI

This includes both the working directory and the sources folder (so the entire MegaPack refit folder). It is 335.5 MiB. Of course, anyone is also welcome to use this snapshot to see the current progress of the project.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 13 April 2013, 05:05:00
Thanks omega, but I did manage to get most of my work back.

To prove I'm still interested in contributing, here is still a very wip shot of the Jarls Hall (Name isn't important, can be decided to be different). All the back spots are just places I haven't got around to putting a texture on yet. It's meant to be the main building of the norse.
(http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz106/Mr_Psychedelic_Hands/Jarls_Hallwip_zps304cf81a.png) (http://s818.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Psychedelic_Hands/media/Jarls_Hallwip_zps304cf81a.png.html)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: -Archmage- on 13 April 2013, 14:24:51
Impressive!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 June 2013, 17:40:40
Hey guys! Sorry that I haven't been around much, but school's been in the way. But now that school's over and I have finally gotten my A+ certification, I can contribute again!

Last I remember, we were having issues getting Arch's model/texture to work...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Norse
Post by: ElimiNator on 6 June 2013, 21:09:16
Yah, I need a human for my chariot.