MegaGlest Forum

Modding and game content creation => Mods => Topic started by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 10:21:26

Title: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 10:21:26
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[img]http://www.muwum-lexicons.de/ds4/titel.php?t=MG%20Refit:%20Desert%20Nomads[/img]This is a thread dedicated to the redevelopment of the MegaGlest "Desert People" faction (replaceing egypt and persian). Feel free to post ideas related to them here.

Google Doc with current status (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 11:00:14
First ideas:

Units should have much hp but less armor.
more stone and gold, less wood.

typical units are:
- slave Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Illustrerad_Verldshistoria_band_I_Ill_004.jpg)
- writer Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lepsi_Hyks.JPG)
- spearmen Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mesehtisoldiers.JPG), alternative (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vorderasiatisches_Museum_Berlin_007.jpg)
- archer Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egyptian_Chariot_(colour).jpg), alternative (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Persian_warriors_from_Berlin_Museum.jpg)
- chariots (with archer) Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egyptian_Chariot_(colour).jpg)
- houses Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Louvres-antiquites-egyptiennes-p1010921.jpg)
- palace Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Esselborn2_dib_012.jpg), alternative (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Palace_of_Serbistan.png)

 for food wheat and/or cows
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[url=http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/socyberty/2008/05/25/168520_0.jpg]Concept-Art Wheat[/url], Cows (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K02_m-om0bc/Tzzt3nvMmHI/AAAAAAAAATA/Bxrfn3kNYGU/s400/agriculture+in+ancient+egypt.jpg)

- well wich grands hp regeneration to nearby buildings (stop burning) Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_well_at_Tiruchendur.jpg)
- garden that increases the production-speed of nearby buildings. (people are happy)Concept-Art (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FuneraryModel-Garden_MetropolitanMuseum.png)

NO CAMELS in ancient time there where only horses and cows no camels.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Omega on 19 December 2012, 12:47:25
Are we in agreement that the desert faction should have a number of cheaper, weaker units? The desert archer, for example, would be weaker, faster, and cheaper than that of, say, Tech. For balance, though, later game units would have to have more balanced strength.

Other units could include:
- Marketplace (production/upgrades) Concept art (tan building) (http://images.mocpages.com/user_images/49882/1327089996m_SPLASH.jpg)
- Slinger (perhaps replacement for archer?) Concept art (http://www.bible-history.com/ibh/images/fullsized/assyrian_slinger.jpg),
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[url=http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6895/renderheilotaisphendonewo4.jpg]alternative[/url]- Momentum (upgrades) Concept art (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7078/7193905986_a3266ff431_o.jpg)
- Companion (high ranking infantry) Concept art (http://www.stuffoflegend.com/Ambar/02Characters/Southmarens/rochir/rochir_swordsman.gif)

I'd really like to see some degree of magic, though, such as a magician of sorts (concept art (http://www.bolgernow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/mage-cool.jpg)).

If we're going to have hero units, an interesting idea would be based on the Persian deities for good (Rostam; concept art (http://tangsir2569.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/rostam.jpg)) and evil (Zahhak;
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[url=http://cghub.com/files/Image/046001-047000/46226/102_max.jpg]concept art[/url]). Players could choose which to have, and each would have an advantage over the other (say, perhaps Rostam is slow and powerful while Zahhak is weaker but faster). Players would only be allowed to have one of the two possible heroes at a time.

By the way, is the garden increasing the production speed of nearby buildings possible with current MegaGlest features? I know it could be done with emanations, but not sure if there's a way to do it currently.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 14:35:22
Yes many weaker units with low amount of armor but good hp value (not too much).

I have no idea what to do with a market, but it fit in the theme very well.

Slinger is nice. (shorter range than archer but a bit of splash damage).

Momentum/Obelisk is suitable for upgrades.

The Companion is alright.

As my researches were based on history book and Wikipedia I did not have any magic,yet. Magic is ok, but it should not become to dominant.

the Idea of two heroes to choose from is good ... I especially like the concept art ... maybe the good one grants more hp and the bad one reduces hp (regeneration e.g. -5) and increases speed or damage.

for the garden I'd use attack-boost <production-speed value="0" value-percent-multipler="false" />. So it should work...

Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 14:44:40
The main concepts originally behind this were economy and cavalry. Both camel and horse cavalry.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Perplesso on 19 December 2012, 15:00:31
Could Market become the only source of gold for this faction? For example:
- slaves are not allowed to harvest gold;
- market produces gold automatically, like Energy Sources produce energy in Magic faction.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 15:02:20
Could Market become the only source of gold for this faction? For example:
- slaves are not allowed to harvest gold;
- market produces gold automatically, like Energy Sources produce energy in Magic faction.

This would require a change in code. Unless you trade stone for gold, in which case you still have to get to AI to do it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 15:13:18
Here's what's left of the old replacement art I made for Egypt.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/miqcq1her02yj49/Old%20Art%20for%20MG.7z (https://www.dropbox.com/s/miqcq1her02yj49/Old%20Art%20for%20MG.7z)

I doubt you'll be able to use any of it, the art really needs a clean restart from a whole different angle.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 15:28:47
The main concepts originally behind this were economy and cavalry. Both camel and horse cavalry.
What are you referring to?

Could Market become the only source of gold for this faction?
This would require a change in code. Unless you trade stone for gold, in which case you still have to get to AI to do it.

No it would be possible... at least when you sell manually ... the only problem would be the AI.
+ It could become a big benefit or disadvantage for the faction depending on the map ... as they usually have more gold than stone....

Techtree (WIP)
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[img]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8091/deserttechtree.jpg[/img]Green = build/produce
Orange = morph
blue = research
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 15:58:02
I'm not too sure if I agree with the Writer being a unit. Mainly because it reminds me too much of the old Vbros packs that had relatively useless, random units thrown in just for theme (no offense, Vbros).

Oh, and as another name for the obelisk that you might find interesting, you could also use "Stele."

Instead of a spearman, you could go with something a bit more unique, like a Khopesh and use an anti-cavalry for cavalry duty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh

Lastly, if this faction is going to be cavalry driven, has anyone here heard of the Mameluke?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 16:05:46
Ok, I can discard the writer.

Names are all working-title ... have some other names myself, but general names need fewer description in development.

Lastly, if this faction is going to be cavalry driven, has anyone here heard of the Mameluke?
I think the focus should be infantry.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 16:10:59
Lastly, if this faction is going to be cavalry driven, has anyone here heard of the Mameluke?
I think the focus should be infantry.

I had suggested cavalry both because Omega mentioned it and Glest doesn't have any "cavalry factions". Every faction so far has one mounted unit, while I really think that the Desert Nomads (it sounds cooler that way) should have multiple types of cavalry.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Omega on 19 December 2012, 16:15:16
This would require a change in code. Unless you trade stone for gold, in which case you still have to get to AI to do it.
I don't think we should depend on that concept, but if such a feature (automatically generate resources in a time interval) becomes available, I think it would be a very interesting concept. At any rate, it looks like Molaos already coded a way to do that (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8567.msg85473#new) in his engine. Perhaps in the future, we'll see a port of that features in MegaGlest?

I think we need some descriptions on some of these units. What is the purpose of the well and field? I'd presume the field produces food, but at which case we already have the farm. Some buildings can be used largely for requirements for other units, but I'd like to see every building have at least some function. As well, should every faction have a defensive building?

I'm also unsure about the writer. It seems to be a useless "inbetween" unit and I'm not sure if the AI would grasp it properly.

Upgrades are pretty low priority, but I think all factions should have some type of lengthy upgrade required to produce a hero unit (which helps prevent the player from getting the hero too early while also adding to the cost of the hero, as they're supposed to be very expensive).

Expanding some different ideas on MuwuM's map:
(http://i.imgur.com/z40q7.png)

3 EDIT CONFLICTS: Perhaps swap spearman with spearthrower and swap archer with some type of melee cavalry?

ANOTHER EDIT: Desert Nomads would be an awesome faction name (Zoy).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MoLAoS on 19 December 2012, 16:22:13
Its incredibly unlikely that any of my code would get into MegaGlest as even GAE would be difficult to port it to, since my source control is poor for various reasons.

It should be relatively simple for someone to write their own version of resource generation directly to MegaGlest though, presuming that there isn't some weird interaction with the network code.

Generating individual resources on a timer is trivial to do, although a more complex implementation like mine would take at least a dozen or more hours of coding time.

Remember that MegaGlest is primarily focused on stable multiplayer and not gameplay features. You should probably resign yourself to that design decision if you want to work with MegaGlest just as you would resign yourself to singleplayer for the current GAE. Although Hailstone did promise that he was working on multiplayer for GAE.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 16:28:27
I looked at the big civilizations (egypts / persian) but nomads would be ok for me, too but we should decide ....

Omegas techtree looks good so far. A few comments:

If we focus on cavalry we should discard the archer and add some melee cavalry, if not it should stay.

If palace produces the worker/slaves we could mix house (housing is in megapack) and farm (produce cows and/or wheats ) for food

The well was just an idea for repairing buildings (stop burning, something like this is done in Anno)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Perplesso on 19 December 2012, 16:56:21
Remember that MegaGlest is primarily focused on stable multiplayer and not gameplay features. You should probably resign yourself to that design decision if you want to work with MegaGlest just as you would resign yourself to singleplayer for the current GAE. Although Hailstone did promise that he was working on multiplayer for GAE.

In my opinion, MegaGlest should also deal with enriching gameplay experience...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Omega on 19 December 2012, 17:03:25
If we focus on cavalry we should discard the archer and add some melee cavalry, if not it should stay.
What would the melee cavalry be, by the way? Zoy mentioned the Mameluke, and camels have been mentioned before (those seem more like a ranged choice to me, though).

In my opinion, MegaGlest should also deal with enriching gameplay experience...
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdapcuFpBZ1rsxt0m.jpg)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 17:07:30
In my opinion, MegaGlest should also deal with enriching gameplay experience...
No of-topic discussion!

This Topic is only for the desert faction. Decisions on requesting new features and whether MG should support it should be placed in the general discussion.



Ok, the Poll did not make sense ... "Desert Nomads" are good.
Then I will shift my focus to cavalry.

melee cavalry: the Mameluke are fighting with spears... so it's not too much distance.  Camels where not used very much in ancient times!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MoLAoS on 19 December 2012, 17:11:44
After seeing MuwuM's post, perhaps Omega could split this discussion off from the desert topic to avoid derailing.

Remember that MegaGlest is primarily focused on stable multiplayer and not gameplay features. You should probably resign yourself to that design decision if you want to work with MegaGlest just as you would resign yourself to singleplayer for the current GAE. Although Hailstone did promise that he was working on multiplayer for GAE.

In my opinion, MegaGlest should also deal with enriching gameplay experience...

Ideally all games would have everything obviously. Its not about what should be done but what can be done. If MegaGlest is to focus on enriching gameplay options it needs programmers to do this work. Current developers have their hands full focusing on stability. So new ones would be required to make gameplay changes.

I do believe Omega and Zor have decided to become MG programmers, presumably because it has multiplayer and GAE does not and thus MG is more popular.

So perhaps sometime in the future a few months or so from now, MG will indeed have some new gameplay features.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 17:22:04
Zor
Zoy* ;)

Anyways, the reason that I want to code for MG is because GAE is on its deathbed. I do plan on making new gameplay features, since MG will eventually be the only remaining fork, and new content needs to happen.
</off-topic>

Oh, and just a correction, the Companion was actually a Greek cavalry. Maybe we should make them a Cataphract?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MoLAoS on 19 December 2012, 17:24:38
Zor
Zoy* ;)

Anyways, the reason that I want to code for MG is because GAE is on its deathbed. I do plan on making new gameplay features, since MG will eventually be the only remaining fork, and new content needs to happen.
</off-topic>

Oh, and just a correction, the Companion was actually a Greek cavalry. Maybe we should make them a Cataphract?

I'm calling you Zor and you can't stop me. Also GAE would be far from dead if Hailstone goes through with his plan to add multiplayer. In fact it would then be a significant improvement from MegaGlest with its tile system, improve menus, and various other benefits.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 17:48:10
Zor
Zoy* ;)

Anyways, the reason that I want to code for MG is because GAE is on its deathbed. I do plan on making new gameplay features, since MG will eventually be the only remaining fork, and new content needs to happen.
</off-topic>

Oh, and just a correction, the Companion was actually a Greek cavalry. Maybe we should make them a Cataphract?

I'm calling you Zor and you can't stop me. Also GAE would be far from dead if Hailstone goes through with his plan to add multiplayer. In fact it would then be a significant improvement from MegaGlest with its tile system, improve menus, and various other benefits.
First don't be rude, second please don't talk about engines in this topic.

So back to the topic, I like omegas refined tech tree but what purpose would the garden serve? Will it be like 6 cows producing food?.

Also I don't like names like garden, house, spear man, ect.

How about something called Montazah?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 18:05:07
Elim, he wasn't being rude. I once had this guy who kept calling me "Zorthus," so I've gotten used to it. ;)

We had discussed a bit ago that the Nomads would have a flying carpet as an air unit. I think it fits them!
Also, what do you think of my idea to turn the Companion into the Cataphract (a heavy cavalry)?
And the Khopesh idea? It would be a great way to add flavor to them.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 18:46:01
Wait? Is this faction based on Egypt or Persia?

I don't know if its a good idea to mix them.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 18:52:15
It's supposed to be a careful mix of Egypt Persia, and some native mythology(not too much!!!).

Khopesh :thumbup:

Cavalry :thumbup:
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 18:57:39
Remember, Elim, this project is to make factions that resemble their source material without actually *being* their source material.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: ElimiNator on 19 December 2012, 18:59:29
I don't think all the army should be produced from the main structure, maybe a barracks type thing?

Also will there be no pyramids?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: -Archmage- on 19 December 2012, 19:01:33
Would everyone working on this faction please send their emails to Mightymic, he is the dropbox man! You will get access to the new man model and all of the current work.

@Pyramids: These could be upgrade buildings, but other than that they have no purpose. I don't wanna see mummies again. That funny at first but really lame after a while. Other than that pyramids are kinda large and pointless.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert People
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 19:05:16
no pyramids, because pyramids are for death kings and not for fighting ... maybe for producing heroes

barracks would be ok ... in form of a military camp/tent? 

The garden is not for food, but to boost nearby buildings to produce faster (because the people like their work more, when they see flowers)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 19 December 2012, 19:47:19
Google Doc with current status (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 19 December 2012, 19:51:38
Hey, can you allow me to edit it? I would like to contribute.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: John.d.h on 20 December 2012, 01:51:27
One thing that you might want to sort out early is the technology level / time period you're working with.  It doesn't seem ideal to mix mamluks from the 900s with Bronze Age technology like the khopesh.  I do really like the idea of buying troops at the slave market, though.  I'd probably merge the cataphract and mamluk unit, since most of what I'm seeing about mamluks puts them as elite heavy cavalry, and maybe add another type of mercenary/slave elite soldier that you could hire/purchase at the market.  Maybe a mamluk cataphract and mamluk marksman?

In my opinion, it probably works better to not have the entire faction based on nomads, as that precludes a lot of advanced technology and development.  You can't really mine iron if you never stay put, and there's only so much you can trade for with milk and meat.  In a lot of places, the nomadic herders maintain strong ties with the settled peoples, so having nomadic units fighting as irregulars alongside more regimented troops makes sense.  Nomads are great at moving quickly (it's really their defining trait), but can't be weighed down by armor or heavy weapons, and they have to be hardy to survive so long out in the desert, so they make perfect sense as light camelry.  I'd put a camel rider as an anti-cavalry unit because their stench is supposed to alarm horses.  I know about MG's attack boost, but is there a way to reverse it and have an aura that weakens enemies?  Their speed and lack of armor would also make them ideal as archers because they wouldn't survive long in melee.  Speed, long range, and an anti-horse aura would make them a good knight killer (if they had crossbows or guns, they'd be perfect at it).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 20 December 2012, 01:54:46
One thing that you might want to sort out early is the technology level / time period you're working with.  It doesn't seem ideal to mix mamluks from the 900s with Bronze Age technology like the khopesh.  I do really like the idea of buying troops at the slave market, though.  I'd probably merge the cataphract and mamluk unit, since most of what I'm seeing about mamluks puts them as elite heavy cavalry, and maybe add another type of mercenary/slave elite soldier that you could hire/purchase at the market.  Maybe a mamluk cataphract and mamluk marksman?

In my opinion, it probably works better to not have the entire faction based on nomads, as that precludes a lot of advanced technology and development.  You can't really mine iron if you never stay put, and there's only so much you can trade for with milk and meat.  In a lot of places, the nomadic herders maintain strong ties with the settled peoples, so having nomadic units fighting as irregulars alongside more regimented troops makes sense.  Nomads are great at moving quickly (it's really their defining trait), but can't be weighed down by armor or heavy weapons, and they have to be hardy to survive so long out in the desert, so they make perfect sense as light camelry.  I'd put a camel rider as an anti-cavalry unit because their stench is supposed to alarm horses.  I know about MG's attack boost, but is there a way to reverse it and have an aura that weakens enemies?  Their speed and lack of armor would also make them ideal as archers because they wouldn't survive long in melee.  Speed, long range, and an anti-horse aura would make them a good knight killer (if they had crossbows or guns, they'd be perfect at it).

Well, we agreed that these factions would be historically based, but not necessarily historically accurate. They are neither Persian nor Egyptian, so we're not confined to certain historical standards. But ultimately, it's all up to Muwum.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 20 December 2012, 08:31:30
Aura that weakens enemies is no problem in MG. Only problem would be to harm only enemy horses.

The mix of ages does not make any problem as long as the visual design of the units fit's together.

As there are so many requesting camel I think I have to discard my restriction. So camel unit could make sense as second buy-able unit with some kind of ranged damage (archer-style or slinger-style) and some kind of movement reduction to nearby enemies.

I'd like to keep the concept of buy-able and produce-able units.

ADDED to GoogleDoc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 20 December 2012, 09:47:55
Concerning the camel: Camel archers were commonly used, and would fit well.

Concerning pyramids: I'd rather not use pyramids. There's a number of reasons for this. First of all, the "Desert Nomads" (if we're using this as a name for the faction) are NOT Egypt. We're looking at a combination of the Egyptian and Persian factions, sure, but this is a "make believe" little figment of its own universe. The pyramids are easily recognized as belonging to the Egypt of our world. Secondly, pyramids are a burial ground. They're a fancy tomb. While producing mummies might make sense, we're not using mummies, and producing other units doesn't make much sense. Even the "good/bad deities" that we may be using as heroes aren't Egyptian. They're Persian, but obscure enough to just be a reference.

Concerning producing units from the main building: I ask, why not? I think producing units from the main building would make the Desert Nomads unique from the other factions. We could have all but one unit have building prerequisites (presumably the slinger). This would allow the Desert Nomads to have a slight advantage in getting started: they can produce a unit without having to build anything. Of course, that unit is very weak, but it's something different. I think it's nice to have some factions a bit different than others, so they don't feel like clones of each other. It also can radically change the gameplay for each faction, making playing as a new faction unique. As well, this also makes it a more economically based faction. The worker units and most military units are produced from the same building, so you can only be producing one or the other. The choice of which to produce becomes more important, and building multiple palaces is more important (and being very expensive, you'd need some hefty capital for that palace).

Question about attack boosts: I think I might be misunderstanding how attack-boosts. Work. Are they the same as an emanation? I see from their syntax (https://docs.megaglest.org/MG/Attack-boost#XML) that they can modify stats for a specific target within a radius as well as apply particle effects to the target. I was initially under the impression they activate only when attacking or the like ("attack" boost), but that doesn't make sense with the garden, so I think I misunderstand them. Also another question: the "allow multiple boosts" tag is applied to each individual attack boost. What happens, then, if one allowing stacking and one that doesn't overlap? Does the "allow multiple boosts" tag only apply to the exact same type of attack boost or all in general?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 20 December 2012, 11:38:08
Camel archer: accepted - much requested - useful for game-play

Pyramids: discarded as they are not fitting to nomads.

production in main building: maybe produce infantry and worker in main building and cavalry in market or stable.

Attack-boosts: are modifications to nearby units (positive and/or negative / enemy and/or friend)  they can be defined for each skill (so even stop-skill) and multiple boosts means multiple instances of the same boost.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 20 December 2012, 13:21:14
Attack-boosts: are modifications to nearby units (positive and/or negative / enemy and/or friend)  they can be defined for each skill (so even stop-skill) and multiple boosts means multiple instances of the same boost.
Ah, been wondering for a long time. That particularly clears things up. Time to fix the wiki page.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 20 December 2012, 18:10:46
I do not like the garden unit.
Not the name or its purposes.
AI wont use it correctly.
I vote we chuck it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 20 December 2012, 18:19:07
I do not like the garden unit.
Not the name or its purposes.
AI wont use it correctly.
I vote we chuck it.
You're so poetic. :P

I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 20 December 2012, 18:52:09
I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.
They already do. Apparently attack boosts are just a somewhat confusing name for emanations. While attack boosts can't be named, etc, they perform the same functions as emanations. Anyway, I think we should keep the garden. The AI constructs buildings in a way that the garden will be used correctly, provided only one is built (since we're going to go the non-stackable boost path, aren't we?). Ideally, there'd be a way to tell the AI to only build one, but since that is not possible, we can set a unit cap of 1 for the garden.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 20 December 2012, 20:52:17
I think that we should temporarily ditch it. Then bring it back WHEN MG gets emanations.
They already do. Apparently attack boosts are just a somewhat confusing name for emanations. While attack boosts can't be named, etc, they perform the same functions as emanations. Anyway, I think we should keep the garden. The AI constructs buildings in a way that the garden will be used correctly, provided only one is built (since we're going to go the non-stackable boost path, aren't we?). Ideally, there'd be a way to tell the AI to only build one, but since that is not possible, we can set a unit cap of 1 for the garden.
I don't like capping something just to help the AI, what if someone wants to build a garden in another base?

The garden will only affect things in a defined range right?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 21 December 2012, 00:02:29
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 December 2012, 02:58:31
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
Actually, you can do that:

Code: [Select]
<ai-behavior min-static-resource-count="100">
<worker-units>
</worker-units>
<building-units>
<unit name="archmage_tower" minimum="1"/>
<unit name="barracks" minimum="2"/>
<unit name="farm" minimum="2"/>
</building-units>
<resource-producer-units>
</resource-producer-units>
<warrior-units>
</warrior-units>
<upgrades>
</upgrades>
</ai-behavior>
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 21 December 2012, 07:45:57
Yes, but I'd presume the range would be large enough to cover the average base.

I agree, capping things to help the AI sucks. We would really benefit with better AI control. If we want to be ambitious, Lua AIs, or on the basic side, a way to tell the AI how many of a unit it should try to build in its base (helpful as we could tell it that building 2 barracks is great, but building 2 archmage towers is not).
Actually, you can do that:

Code: [Select]
<ai-behavior min-static-resource-count="100">
<worker-units>
</worker-units>
<building-units>
<unit name="archmage_tower" minimum="1"/>
<unit name="barracks" minimum="2"/>
<unit name="farm" minimum="2"/>
</building-units>
<resource-producer-units>
</resource-producer-units>
<warrior-units>
</warrior-units>
<upgrades>
</upgrades>
</ai-behavior>
Oh, yes, forgot about that (https://docs.megaglest.org/XML/Faction). Still, it can only tell a minimum, not a maximum. Not sure how the AI would treat a building with a minimum of 1. Would they only typically build one, or would they build more but with lower priority?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 21 December 2012, 08:25:51
I'd like to keep the garden until we tested it and it doesn't work ...

if there is a minimum then it should not be too hard to add a maximum ...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 21 December 2012, 09:36:01
I'd like to keep the garden until we tested it and it doesn't work ...
We should probably test the garden with a placeholder, then, so as to avoid wasting modeling efforts. I don't see why it *wouldn't* work, though. I'm rather optimistic for it, though. Buildings like the garden also make the buildings of MegaGlest a bit more varied while making the faction a bit more unique.

I'd also like to point out that we really need to nail down what exactly we're doing. We can't start modeling and making art for the faction until we finish planning it. I happen to have a fair bit of time on my hands with the holiday season, and might be able to get a model or two done if we can figure out what we're doing (gonna need arch's base human for any humanoids, though).

I think the current plan outlaid by the Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit) looks pretty good. The names need some work and it could use some more concept art (the palace, for example, has 2D concept art, which would be a bit difficult to transform into a model; I'd rather like to know what the side should look like rather than modeling blind). I'd also like to take a closer look at the upgrades. Here's my concept for upgrades (all names are working names; and can easily be changed to whatever sounds best):

As noted, the well produces mostly stat based upgrades, based on the idea that water is a difficult necessity for desert peoples. Two of the three cavalry units require upgrades before they can be produced. That leaves the Cataphract without needing an upgrade. The Cataphract is described as heavy melee, though. Perhaps the upgrade should be required for the Cataphract and the Mameluke can be produced without an upgrade (the Mameluke is described as a fast raider with bonuses to cavalry). That bonus reminds me that if we're developing the factions separately, we need to coordinate on the attack and armour types. Ideally, their'll be a large number of types so that we can have things like a cavalry unit effective against cavalry and a Khopesh warrior that's effective against infantry. That's done easily enough by having "anti-cavalry" and "anti-infantry" attack types, which would be effective against the armour types generally used by cavalry (which would need its own armour type) and infantry (metal, organic, leather, etc). That discussion is best done in the generic MG refit topic (https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8776.0).

At any rate, several upgrades have extended ideas. In addition to what they can do, I'd like to see them do more if later features become available. MegaGlest's upgrade system is really basic, and I'd hope to see that expanded on. In particular, the ability to apply different stat increases to different sets of units, such as giving unit A an attack strength boost and unit B an attack speed boost. GAE did this with an enhancements tag (https://docs.megaglest.org/XML/Upgrade), which allowed these different enhancements to be applied to different units. I'd also like to see the ability to increase by multipliers (realized now that's not already possible, so the above descriptions would have to be tweaked slightly). Finally, some things like repair speed, production costs, and attack boost effects can't be modified by upgrades. The latter two only make sense to increase by a multiplier.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 21 December 2012, 13:30:43
I will try to build the tech-tree in the GoogleDoc within the next few days with only placeholder-models... (mainly copy from old project, with placeholder-texture)... will be available in Dropbox, when I go something done.

Updates sounds good at the moment ... working-names of course ...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 December 2012, 17:51:20
Oh, yes, forgot about that (https://docs.megaglest.org/XML/Faction). Still, it can only tell a minimum, not a maximum. Not sure how the AI would treat a building with a minimum of 1. Would they only typically build one, or would they build more but with lower priority?
The AI would have to build all the buildings/units it says to, then it could build more of a kind.

The human Arch used looks like the regular tech worker model, I think we want more than one base mesh so the units will look more varied instead of uniform?

If so I can make a slightly fatter shorter all-around different human mesh.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 21 December 2012, 18:05:08
Elim, the mesh can be modified and keep it's animation. That's the point of the future community release. Bones, UV, 3 different detailed movement animations. Making a totally different model would be pointless as you can already make the dude shorter and fatter or more ripped or what have you in just a few minutes. :)
Modifying the animation for weapons/clothing/ a potbelly is also much much easier and faster.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 December 2012, 18:12:10
Yes, but if we just modify the same mesh it will still look similar.

If a couple meshes were created they would differ better, also we don’t want all they guys to run the same so there will need to be more than one animation.

If you don't mine Arch I will try my hand at animating a walk cycle and see if it looks any good.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 21 December 2012, 18:24:33
Quote
Yes, but if we just modify the same mesh it will still look similar.
Um... no. There is almost no limit to modifying it. It's Blender man! 8)

Quote
If a couple meshes were created they would differ better, also we don’t want all they guys to run the same so there will need to be more than one animation.
There are 3 animations for movement, and they all look different. 4 animations if you count the lil surprise I've included.. ;)

Quote
If you don't mine Arch I will try my hand at animating a walk cycle and see if it looks any good.
I don't mind, it's good to have a lil competition eh man? :P
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 21 December 2012, 19:06:05
We should note that the humans need to have reasonably constant proportions. And in magitech, the humanoids all have the same base model (and for a good reason: consistency). Most of the variance will be in the texture. I'd rather we don't use different models from different people because they'll likely end up in very different modeling and animating styles, leading to a very noticeable inconsistency. Professionals use very rigid style guides, but I don't think we have the skill or time to do such a thing (which would define everything from how wide the nose should be to the ratio of the waist to the thighs). The Simpsons wouldn't look very good if every episode, Bart had different proportions, would it? Likewise, using the same base model, you can do some serious tweaking without making the model too different. You could add a cape and battle axe, you could give him a santa belly, and elf hat with bells, and jester shoes. And with the animations, the units can all feel reasonably diversified (note that each unit should only use one different walk animation, since multiple animations are done as a per skill basis, which would make walking look very weird if the animation changed every two steps).

Finally, a lot of units are non-humanoid or feature prominent non-humanoid features. The camel archer has his camel, the magician has his hefty get-up class, and the palace is, well, a palace.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 December 2012, 20:10:24
So you think we should have the same human model for all the factions?

From previous experience I know that if all the models in all the factions look the same it is not as good as when all the factions have a different look.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 21 December 2012, 20:25:06
The factions will have a different look.
Height, weight, skin tone, texture, expression, musculature and more can all be modified Elim. The model is naked, he doesn't have clothes, or weapons, armor, or anything. Asians and black people look pretty different in some ways but the variation is actually pretty small. We can cover all variations of that size with one modifyable mesh/UV. This model has a solid rig too, it will save a lot of time to be spent on better animation. :)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 December 2012, 21:43:05
Well, whatever looks the best.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 23 December 2012, 04:25:05
Well I guess that’s enough planing for now, we can start on the art and change things along the way.

Ill start by making the chariot.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 23 December 2012, 04:49:15
Well I guess that’s enough planing for now, we can start on the art and change things along the way.

Ill start by making the chariot.

Thank god, I was wondering when the art development would get started.
Elim can you focus on good animation like you did with your walking cycle please?

Dropbox Access: Please send your dropbox email address to MightyMic, he owns the dropbox folder. Norse development is all happening on this dropbox folder and there is plenty of room for you to work along side us. Megapack is in the dropbox and is already modified some. For safety though, please copy your work to your own HDD.
Can all of you let me know if you have dropbox access?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 23 December 2012, 07:13:21
Hey arch, is the base human ready? At any rate, it's Christmas, so it'll be a bit before I can get any real work done.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 23 December 2012, 08:05:07
It has 2 running animations, 1 jogging and 1 walking. I'm just waiting for Hands to UV it. If you want I'll give it a try I'm actually not bad..
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 23 December 2012, 08:12:55
I was hoping to UV that before everyone starts to play with it. I think my timezone permits me a few hours before christmas to do it tomorrow. (Still gotta do shopping!)

Heres alittle weekly update for the first week of development. Lets keep it nice and concise!

Arch has taken one of my old crappy models and turned it into that awesome man model you've all seen. He has also made an armory model, along with some fairly cool weapons.
Mightymic has started work on a castle model. It could use a little bit more  love, but it is a solid start, and I'm digging the design.
Someone named lucas(Sorry I don't know who you are!) has been busy changing names and .xmls. Which is awesome. We should really start prototyping gameplay and hopefully get some models ingame.
And yeah, I've been up working on my house model, which I've had some issues with.... But it's getting there. And I've started a new icon background, which is a fair way off but I'm excited!

Pretty good start I'd say! Nice work to everyone! Hopefully we can regroup after christmas and continue on this steady pace.

Edit: Sorry I forgot to mention,... Massive apologies if I've missed anyone's contributions! I mostly just turned Dropbox events into sentences! Sorry! I know lots of people like Omega, Zoy and Muwum have put lots of planning in, which is super important!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 23 December 2012, 08:26:30
Quote from: Hands the man
Pretty good start I'd say! Nice work to everyone! Hopefully we can regroup after christmas and continue on this steady pace.

Boo-yeah.

Onces Hands gets the UV done it will be packaged and uploaded for you guys to use/work with as our Christmas Present. :archer: :scientist:
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 23 December 2012, 09:25:42
Sounds great, Hands and Arch. I hope to get started after the break. We'll have to see how much time I have on my hands.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: wciow on 23 December 2012, 09:38:56
Arch has taken one of my old crappy models and turned it into that awesome man model you've all seen. He has also made an armory model, along with some fairly cool weapons.
Mightymic has started work on a castle model. It could use a little bit more  love, but it is a solid start, and I'm digging the design.
Someone named lucas(Sorry I don't know who you are!) has been busy changing names and .xmls. Which is awesome. We should really start prototyping gameplay and hopefully get some models ingame.
And yeah, I've been up working on my house model, which I've had some issues with.... But it's getting there. And I've started a new icon background, which is a fair way off but I'm excited!

Its great to see another community project come together  :)

Over Christmas I will try to make a design document and some concepts/textures for the buildings so that the art style is tied together across all contributors. Also i would like to take on the modeling of the garden/obelisk/well models for the nomad faction...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 23 December 2012, 10:19:49
Over Christmas I will try to make a design document and some concepts/textures for the buildings so that the art style is tied together across all contributors. Also i would like to take on the modeling of the garden/obelisk/well models for the nomad faction...
There's already a general design document here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit). Why not collaborate on the same document so we can keep things in one place? In fact, we should probably specify on that document what we're modeling, so we don't end up with multiple people trying to model the same unit or modeling a unit someone else already completed.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 23 December 2012, 10:25:09
Someone named lucas(Sorry I don't know who you are!)
If you think of Lukas Theis ... that's me.

Great, that a couple artists started working on Desert nomads ... as I have no time / skill in getting/being good in it.

First version of XML-Structure could be in Dropbox within the next 12 hours...

First test's with AI showed that it might be nessesary to tell the AI that a hero is worth to be produced at any time...

Further I experienced a good useage of the well which is a bit weak at the moment but could become a great defending - building

In fact, we should probably specify on that document what we're modeling, so we don't end up with multiple people trying to model the same unit or modeling a unit someone else already completed.

added column in the Document for that. PLEASE ALL OF YOU, ENTER YOUR NAME WHEN STARTING TO WORK ON A MODEL.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 23 December 2012, 10:27:36
Over Christmas I will try to make a design document and some concepts/textures for the buildings so that the art style is tied together across all contributors. Also i would like to take on the modeling of the garden/obelisk/well models for the nomad faction...
There's already a general design document here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11jdEdRhQ4sGB0UL5KHs8K6XVtzrI-z6MLp9hnBb3JXc/edit). Why not collaborate on the same document so we can keep things in one place? In fact, we should probably specify on that document what we're modeling, so we don't end up with multiple people trying to model the same unit or modeling a unit someone else already completed.

Art style  is going to be very tricky, I feel like we're all going to have to compromise a fair  bit. I've kind of just jumped in and started, and I'm a bit worried that I've put too much of a distinct style on... I'm hoping though that everyone will like it and try to follow a bit, but thats kind of douche of me I know...

And wciow, great to see you're interested!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 24 December 2012, 16:54:07
first version of place-holder-techtree in the dropbox, you may place it in your tech folder and test it ... not much balancing done, yet ...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 27 December 2012, 19:32:29
Should I have 2 horses pulling the chariot or 1?
I think there should be 2 but will it look fine in glest?

Also what will he use, bow or spear?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 27 December 2012, 19:55:45
Should I have 2 horses pulling the chariot or 1?
I think there should be 2 but will it look fine in glest?

Also what will he use, bow or spear?
Since there's already a camel archer, I think it'd be better to be throwing spears from the chariot. As for the number of horses, I don't care either way, but one horse is technically plenty to pull a chariot and easier to animate while keeping the model within a size restriction. I'm not sure if the unit will be able to fit as a size two unit as it is.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 27 December 2012, 21:22:38
Ok Ill do one and if we want another can be added later.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 27 December 2012, 21:45:07
Ok here is the mesh:

(http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy127/Elimiator/char_zps6f7ab747.jpg)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 27 December 2012, 21:50:34
Ok here is the mesh:
If we're using one horse, you'd probably want the hitch of that chariot to come on both sides like in this image (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-efZv2wtWJ54/UGHyXKzoMtI/AAAAAAAAgx4/QfSPQ6qHA9Y/s1600/racing_chariot.jpg). Other than that, looks good.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 28 December 2012, 01:09:58
Here it is textured:

(http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy127/Elimiator/char_zps75b0260a.png)

I still have to add straps on the horse, and team colour.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 04:50:15
I finished the market.

(http://i.imgur.com/L1sZT.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/WHjjo.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HtWTk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/y75A1.jpg)

However, I'm not sure where to upload it. The dropbox folder currently has a megapack and megapack_refit folder. The megapack refit folder has the layout for this faction under a different name (and that's it). The other folder seems to be a mess of some renamed factions and others untouched. Both have alternative or placeholder models. Can we standardize where we're putting everything?

We also need somewhere to put the source files (blender and image files). I propose we make a separate techtree folder layout to store them.

In the meantime, here's the files (http://www.mediafire.com/?z892wc4fpdgc6kq) for any interested parties. G3Ds (stop, build, and die), PNG textures (compressed to the limit; stop model is 1024 x 1024, the other two are 512 x 512), PDN source files (multilayered), and blend files.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 28 December 2012, 06:08:16
Looks good. Do you mind if I give some suggestions? You don't have to take it.

- Try adding some skirting to around the base of the building. Just to break up the one big solid wall texture.
-Add some moss around the base as well, it helps transcend from the ground texture to the model. All of Magitechs buildings do this.
-Maybe even some plants or grasses around the base too.
- Change the end of the log from being brown to how the inside of a tree looks... (didn't explain that well, here: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dole/dole1109/dole110900029/10727914-redbud-wood-log-isolated-on-white.jpg (http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dole/dole1109/dole110900029/10727914-redbud-wood-log-isolated-on-white.jpg).
- Add a different type of brick in the corners (example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29574758@N00/4593651257/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29574758@N00/4593651257/))
- Bevel the corners so it doesn't look so perfectly square.
- Add shading in the team colour bit, maybe add some fog. Perhaps even extrude it out or in a bit? whatever, just to make it stand out less.
Make behind the door black, and maybe shade behind it or even add skirting around it.

Do you not have the Art folder in your dropbox? You should make a folder for the nomads and stick it in there.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 06:36:25
Looks good. Do you mind if I give some suggestions? You don't have to take it.

- Try adding some skirting to around the base of the building. Just to break up the one big solid wall texture.
-Add some moss around the base as well, it helps transcend from the ground texture to the model. All of Magitechs buildings do this.
-Maybe even some plants or grasses around the base too.
- Change the end of the log from being brown to how the inside of a tree looks... (didn't explain that well, here: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dole/dole1109/dole110900029/10727914-redbud-wood-log-isolated-on-white.jpg (http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/dole/dole1109/dole110900029/10727914-redbud-wood-log-isolated-on-white.jpg).
- Add a different type of brick in the corners (example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29574758@N00/4593651257/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/29574758@N00/4593651257/))
- Bevel the corners so it doesn't look so perfectly square.
- Add shading in the team colour bit, maybe add some fog. Perhaps even extrude it out or in a bit? whatever, just to make it stand out less.
Make behind the door black, and maybe shade behind it or even add skirting around it.

Do you not have the Art folder in your dropbox? You should make a folder for the nomads and stick it in there.
I think I might expand on the building tomorrow. I'll add some simple plants to the bottom (bearing in mind it's a desert building). The "end of the logs" though is actually supposed to be a plank on top. Like a "railing", but being cheap, I didn't emphasize that. I might extrude that a little so it's more obvious. I'm not sure if different corner bricks fit into the model style, though. I'll probably extrude the team colour.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 28 December 2012, 08:04:08
Looking good but its too uniform, make it less straight, more angles, and beaten.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 19:00:21
And version two:

(http://i.imgur.com/SUYK2.jpg)

I couldn't find a way to make plants around the base look natural. They always looked slightly out of place, but others are willing to try if they wish. I'm not sure what you mean, Eliminator, about making it less straight. Buildings are generally reasonably straight, as was the source image. I'm still open to suggests to improve it, but in the meantime, I'm going to move it to the dropbox repo in case others want to edit it. As for behind the door, it's actually a gradient. Full black didn't really look right when I tried it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 28 December 2012, 19:43:52
See how this is:
(http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/15972/images/Egyptian_Market.JPG)

Sort of angled walls and maybe a cloth cover thing in the front?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: John.d.h on 28 December 2012, 20:39:52
Right now your market just looks mostly like a painted box.  If you put a frame around the door to give it some variety to the geometry, that would probably help.  Also, I agree with the angled walls, and maybe drape a cloth over those wooden pegs.  Making the colored part stick out is a step in the right direction, but I'd do more.  It looks like you've got a few hundred polygons to spare on adding some windows, and maybe some tables and jars if you've got the room.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 21:01:18
I think I'll try widening the base, draping a clothe over the covers, adding a door frame, and expanding the stall portion. I'm not sure how windows should look, though. Any ideas?

And yeah, there's plenty of polygons to spare. For a size 3 unit, there's only 458 triangles in version two.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MightyMic on 28 December 2012, 21:20:58
I couldn't find a way to make plants around the base look natural. They always looked slightly out of place, but others are willing to try if they wish.

You could try boxes, like storage crates or something like that. And if you do make a plant, I suggest that is be a dry/dead looking thing
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 28 December 2012, 22:24:44
I must say I like the old boxes of food better, the border look weird.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 28 December 2012, 22:47:11
I added clothe, made the door and lock 3D, tilted the displays, widened the base of the building so it's not straight, and animated a wind into the clothe. Note that if you're viewing the G3D models, set the animation speed three times slower.

(http://i.imgur.com/wnrVW.png)

I'm not sure if there's room to fit a table or such. The wider base already pushes it to a size 4 unit. I'm not sure how windows would look. Regarding the border on the displays, I think it looks a bit better now that it's tilted.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 30 December 2012, 19:15:31
Hey, I noticed on the doc that there's two cavalry who are on anti-cavalry duty (the Mameluke and the Camel Archer). There's too much overlap, so I suggest that we differentiate them a little (without stepping into the realm of the Cataphract).

Here's what I propose:
Spear-wielding Mamelukes should be anti-cavalry (well, they should be multipurpose, but get a bonus against cavalry).
Camel Archers should be anti-infantry (as arrows typically beat infantry irl) and anti-air (for obvious reasons).
and Cataphracts should just be anti-everything (since their cost justifies it).

What do you think?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 30 December 2012, 19:51:36
Hey, I noticed on the doc that there's two cavalry who are on anti-cavalry duty (the Mameluke and the Camel Archer). There's too much overlap, so I suggest that we differentiate them a little (without stepping into the realm of the Cataphract).

Here's what I propose:
Spear-wielding Mamelukes should be anti-cavalry (well, they should be multipurpose, but get a bonus against cavalry).
Camel Archers should be anti-infantry (as arrows typically beat infantry irl) and anti-air (for obvious reasons).
and Cataphracts should just be anti-everything (since their cost justifies it).

What do you think?
Fine by me. Spears (or lances?) would generally be more effective for anti-cavalry, anyway, due to their reach. The camel archer would be the same as any archer, but stronger and faster. The cataphract is a swordman on horse: a force to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Perplesso on 31 December 2012, 11:53:58
I've seen the market prototype, it's a good start. Perhaps in my opinion it's "too perfect", it needs a bit more "dirtyness" in the wall texture.

But... if this faction depicts "nomads", shouldn't their buildings be "mobile" as well? Like tents?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Coldfusionstorm on 31 December 2012, 12:19:08
Second version of the market is much better, and even nomads(dependent on style), have some stationary buildings, and a good cool building with shadows for fruit and stuff inside is properly good.

And yeah the market look too clean, the wall's should be a bit more dirty.

all in all good progress, and exciting to see
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 31 December 2012, 22:18:49
It just occurred to me, there's no defensive structures!

Do you have any plans, Muwum?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 02:54:19
It just occurred to me, there's no defensive structures!

Do you have any plans, Muwum?

1: A sand bunker with a light archer inside.
2:
Code: [Select]
[url=http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_639/1318445765APlANq.jpg]Sandstone tower[/url] with a cheap ballista.



I think the market looks much too simple and clean. It needs a lot more than dirt in my opinion.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 1 January 2013, 03:38:00
I like the tower, Ill start on it.

BTW: what human do I put in my chariot? And he will throw spears, right?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 03:54:26
Do you mean what model? Use mine please. Just append stuff from one blend to the other. :)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 1 January 2013, 05:59:47
Do you mean what model? Use mine please. Just append stuff from one blend to the other. :)
Sorry I use the old blender...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 06:51:41
Do you mean what model? Use mine please. Just append stuff from one blend to the other. :)
Sorry I use the old blender...

What do you mean? You can't append? The new one is better man.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 1 January 2013, 10:08:09
Even the ancient 2.4x version should be able to append a model fine.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 1 January 2013, 18:03:37
Well I have tried to append thing many times and its never worked for me.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 19:33:36
Well I have tried to append thing many times and its never worked for me.

Then you're not doing it right I do it all the time. First you should get a copy of 2.64 and the latest export script, then you'll be able to work better with the rest of us.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MightyMic on 1 January 2013, 19:44:34
Even the ancient 2.4x version should be able to append a model fine.

Didn't version 2.64 change how it does faces? That might mean that backwards compatibility stopped with 2.64 (it may have been vs 2.63)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 1 January 2013, 20:05:37
I haven't learned the horrible new way Blender works, I have 2.62 but I never use it.
However I have a way of doing things and I can get your model into mine.
However since yours isn't UV mapped yet...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 1 January 2013, 20:30:37
I haven't learned the horrible new way Blender works, I have 2.62 but I never use it.
However I have a way of doing things and I can get your model into mine.
However since yours isn't UV mapped yet...

It actually is... last I checked. Not sure if it's complete yet but it's mapped it looks like.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 2 January 2013, 02:00:45
I haven't learned the horrible new way Blender works, I have 2.62 but I never use it.
I gotta be honest. With all due respect, you're being a bit stubborn about versions. Yes, there's a big UI change, but it's a part of life, and from my personal experience, it's much easier to use with the new user interface once you learn it. You just have to give it time. At least a few days of practice. After all, you didn't just jump into Blender 2.4x right off the bat, did you? As well, the majority of hotkeys are unchanged. A minority have been changed to be more logical, but the vast majority (all the ones that I can remember) are unchanged. If you're like most 2.4x users, you mostly use hotkeys anyway, right? The biggest change is that the spacebar now opens a menu to search ALL functions (if I recall correctly, the 2.4x Blender used the spacebar to add objects). So if you know what a feature is called but don't know where it is on the menus or the hotkey, no fuss, just hit space and type the name. Say you want to extrude (hotkey "e") but can't remember the hotkey and don't know where it is in the menus (heck, I don't know offhand, though could probably find it easily enough), just hit space and type "extrude".

That's really it. Sure, some things are moved around and can be a pain to search for, but once you've found it, you now know where it is. The search function helps tremendously. Tons of new features were added in the 2.5x and 2.6x line (that's right, you're not one, but two generations behind). And 2.62 isn't the latest version either, it's 2.65.

And then there's addons. Sure, Blender 2.4x has addons, but they're all outdated now. If you want any new addons, they're not going to work with 2.4x unless they predate the 2.5x series and retained downloads for older versions (like the G3D support addon). In fact, let's look at the G3D support addon. The older versions actually have some bugs in them. They work, but not the way they're supposed to. You can't set the no-select flag (recently implemented into MegaGlest), you can't toggle between alpha and team colour independent of single or double sided objects. But beyond that, let's look at making things a bit more productive. Take the Dynamic Spacebar Menu addon, for example (which comes bundled with the 2.6x series, but is disabled by default; you can enable it in the user preferences). Without it enabled, spacebar brings up this menu:
(http://i.imgur.com/HF86v.png)

Enable it and we got a more comprehensive menu to help you find stuff.
(http://i.imgur.com/3aUQk.png)

Of course, it's not a replacement for 2.4x's UI, but it's an alternative that makes it even easier to find the commands you're looking for. If you're emotionally attached to Blender 2.4x's colour scheme, you can get that back from changing the colour scheme in the user preferences:
(http://i.imgur.com/y0lz4.png)

Sure, even then, the UI is slightly different, but I'm of the opinion that Blender would be very much useable for a 2.4x user. The only critical change is getting used to using the search feature.

You're by no means required to upgrade on others behalves, but this is a community project, and the compatibility of models across generations of Blender remains to be seen.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 2 January 2013, 02:32:23
There are other changes you didn't mention that are a pain in the neck, however Ill do models for this project in the new blender.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 2 January 2013, 07:09:11
Hey guys, could help us populate the "Unit Stats" tab of Nomad spreadsheet?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgtJP_M46-bidHNJNEhnNVgyQlBCeHF5TDJmTjlRc3c
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 2 January 2013, 09:05:23
Just saying, Dynamic spacebar is my favourite thing ever. I recommend everyone to use it... I don't understand why it isn't default....
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 2 January 2013, 11:13:49
Just saying, Dynamic spacebar is my favourite thing ever. I recommend everyone to use it... I don't understand why it isn't default....
I virtually never use it... but it is nifty.

Blender 2.6+ please. Just ask if you have issues we'll help. <off-topic/>
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 2 January 2013, 17:28:17
Just saying, Dynamic spacebar is my favourite thing ever. I recommend everyone to use it... I don't understand why it isn't default....
What do you mean by "Dynamic space bar", what does it do? Its not default?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MightyMic on 2 January 2013, 18:05:27
User Preferences -> Addons
It's third in the "All" Category

Example of before and after:

(http://i.imgur.com/HF86v.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/3aUQk.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 2 January 2013, 19:08:37
Cool, Ill be enabling that.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 3 January 2013, 04:05:54
Hey, anyone know what happened to Muwum?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MoLAoS on 3 January 2013, 04:13:29
That crack cocaine. It gets so many of the young ones. Sad times.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 3 January 2013, 04:16:10
That crack cocaine. It gets so many of the young ones. Sad times.
Hahaha....
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: wciow on 4 January 2013, 00:23:20
Blender 2.6+ please. Just ask if you have issues we'll help. <off-topic/>

I'm itching to get started modeling for this project but...

Ubuntu uses 2.62 as the default install but the latest export script needs 2.63 or higher. Is there any way to upgrade a Ubuntu install?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 00:42:59
Blender 2.6+ please. Just ask if you have issues we'll help. <off-topic/>

I'm itching to get started modeling for this project but...

Ubuntu uses 2.62 as the default install but the latest export script needs 2.63 or higher. Is there any way to upgrade a Ubuntu install?
Simple, get Win7.  ;)

Hey, I just noticed that the Nomads are missing two important things: a siege unit and a logo. How are they supposed to demolish structures or identify themselves?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 01:11:19
Blender 2.6+ please. Just ask if you have issues we'll help. <off-topic/>

I'm itching to get started modeling for this project but...

Ubuntu uses 2.62 as the default install but the latest export script needs 2.63 or higher. Is there any way to upgrade a Ubuntu install?

Win 7/8. Or blender.org (http://www.blender.org/download/get-blender/).

Zoy: How about a log carried by 4-6 men, like a human powered battering ram. Maybe assisted by cavalry..?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 01:25:15

Zoy: How about a log carried by 4-6 men, like a human powered battering ram. Maybe assisted by cavalry..?
That's what the Njord use. Why not a sand golem that throws massive rocks? That would be epic!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 01:27:34
Ubuntu uses 2.62 as the default install but the latest export script needs 2.63 or higher. Is there any way to upgrade a Ubuntu install?
What do you mean "Ubuntu uses 2.62" is that the Blender version?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 01:30:45
How about a "rock ballista"!?
Sand golem is a bit too much like magic..
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 01:32:20

Zoy: How about a log carried by 4-6 men, like a human powered battering ram. Maybe assisted by cavalry..?
That's what the Njord use. Why not a sand golem that throws massive rocks? That would be epic!
Sand golem sound too fantastical to me, how about a big catapult / trebuchet?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 01:36:44

Zoy: How about a log carried by 4-6 men, like a human powered battering ram. Maybe assisted by cavalry..?
That's what the Njord use. Why not a sand golem that throws massive rocks? That would be epic!
Sand golem sound too fantastical to me, how about a big catapult / trebuchet?

Save that for Rome and Tech, I was thinking a ballista that shoots rocks instead of bolts.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MightyMic on 4 January 2013, 01:39:12
Ubuntu uses 2.62 as the default install but the latest export script needs 2.63 or higher. Is there any way to upgrade a Ubuntu install?

I think you can just replace the executables in the blender install location. (You'd need to unpack the *.tar.bz2)
That's what I do when I update blender in Windows
Hope that helps
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 01:46:17
Elim, it's okay if some factions are more fantastic than others. I think that a more magical artillery would fit them best. What if they were summoned by a Magus, but had a limited lifetime?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 02:18:23
Elim, it's okay if some factions are more fantastic than others. I think that a more magical artillery would fit them best. What if they were summoned by a Magus, but had a limited lifetime?

Eh no, I'd really rather not see this faction get very fantastical... The magus is enough.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 02:31:05
Elim, it's okay if some factions are more fantastic than others. I think that a more magical artillery would fit them best. What if they were summoned by a Magus, but had a limited lifetime?

Eh no, I'd really rather not see this faction get very fantastical... The magus is enough.
Agreed
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 02:39:02
I personally see the Magic, the Nomads, and the Woodsmen as more "fantastical," while the Romans, Njord, and Tech are more "realistic." It creates a nice balance.

Ultimately, though, it's Muwum's call.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 4 January 2013, 02:42:03
Tech realistic?

Honestly, If we don't add any (or hardly any) fantasical units, we should drop tech and magic. Because otherwise then we're in the same boat as the original Megapack and they will stick out like a sore thumb.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 02:43:33
Muwum? He hasn't been here for a while. I think it should be voted on.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 02:49:27
Actually, I talked to him earlier today. He's just a little busy. Anyways, it's technically under his leadership, so he's the one who makes the decisions.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 02:58:24
I'm open to a vote, just I'm not doing art for a sand golem.

Edit: Sand Golem vs cheap and mobile ballista-ish thing?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 4 January 2013, 03:13:56
Sorry, I'm not at home until the 7 January 2013, so I have only limited access to the board and not much time for posting.

 For the defence unit Zoy came up with a great idea: we could give the well an additional attack-boost adding negative hp-regeneration to enemy units.

The sand golem would be in my opinion more like a slow, but strong unit and not really a defence. I don't really like the idea of having just an other tower shooting arrows...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 03:19:01
Sorry, I'm not at home until the 7 January 2013, so I have only limited access to the board and not much time for posting.

 For the defence unit Zoy came up with a great idea: we could give the well an additional attack-boost adding negative hp-regeneration to enemy units.

The sand golem would be in my opinion more like a slow, but strong unit and not really a defence. I don't really like the idea of having just an other tower shooting arrows...
No offence but that's a complete copy of magic.
If you want to do the sand golem then do it, but I am not going to do art for it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 03:27:45
I was discussing more with the guys and we've come up with a mobile tower. It would have 2 forms, one defensive, and one siege. That way your defense tower could reconstruct into a siege tower. I think this would be a really great way to take over a base and then immediately secure it by rebuilding into defense towers. :D
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 4 January 2013, 03:49:20
No offence but that's a complete copy of magic.
If you want to do the sand golem then do it, but I am not going to do art for it.

You got me wrong, I don't want the Golem as defensive unit, but I like the idea of the sand-golem (http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/163/d/a/sand_monster_by_DeAeRO.jpg).
Maybe as hero? instead the two god's?

The mobile - ballista tower seems to be an unique defense unit. Concept-Art: with 100% wood and wheels instead the rock (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/268/d/7/ballista_tower_by_artkalev-d2zgsqy.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 04:05:58
Well it would have to an automated bow because putting a guy on top won't work.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 04:28:41
We'd either put a roof over it so you don't see it, or hint that the controls for the turret are under the ballista.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 06:55:25
I have two big issues with a morphing turret/siege weapon:
1. The AI hates stuff like that. After plenty of testing Constellus on GAE, I can tell you that the AI sometimes panics with units like that. It's just a bad idea until the AI can use them correctly.
2. Ballistae were great at killing troops, but SUCKED against structures. So, anything with a crossbow would make for a VERY inefficient siege weapon. To take down a structure, you need something that deals heavy impact damage, like a giant rock!

I'm highly in favor of a Sand/Earth golem. I imagine to be much like the picture, not like what Magic has (honestly, I have always thought that the Magic golem was ugly....). I want to see it throw giant boulders or something of that nature!

Lastly, I want the Njord to have the only melee siege weapon (since it fits them the best).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MoLAoS on 4 January 2013, 07:42:31
There is a good reason the AI of most custom maps on games like WC3 and SC2 is done with scripting. Just like most humans play games in ways and using exploits that the devs never imagined or intended, the AI is limited by the devs own conception of the game. And when you move away from the original game into customized factions it gets much, much worse. Like unbelievably worse. And that's assuming the designers were smart enough to create an AI that could use their own units properly relative to other designers. AI designers also tend to take various shortcuts related to a set of unit archetypes in order to save on AI processing because of limited CPU cycles.

Any AI system that wants to deal well with game data not designed by its creator needs to be intensely generalized and the creator needs to have a really good understanding of the systems the game uses be they economic or military. And then we deal with needing multiple difficulty settings which is even worse but lets ignore that for now.

How likely is it that the designers of the Glest and even MegaGlest AI are master tacticians or strategists? How good are they at doing complex math on top of that? And I don't mean math that is complex like calculus, I mean math that is complex due to the huge number of variables.

We also need to account for overhead in the game loop as I said. We can make AI as complex as the resources we have. Any game that needs to scale to low level computers is going to have a problem unless it has an AI whose complexity scales to computer specs. And that makes it even more complex for the designer.

I would have to say that pretty much anything you do is going to confuse the hell out of the Glest AI.

On the side of your structures, having the AI make decisions based on a tag system like you telling the AI what is and what isn't a building is not gonna fly. This is one of those shortcuts I was talking about that bones AI. I don't know if MG has better AI, but especially the vanilla Glest AI was incredibly stupid with regard to how to use units. Even if your units all follow the appropriate archetypes like buildings all behave similarly the AI is gonna have an issue. But if you have buildings with radically different behavior, and I read the threads so I know you do, the AI can't handle that. Even if you tagged something as defensive building and producing building or something its an issue for the AI.

There has been some good work done recently in gaming AI, academic learning AI is bad because you don't want the player to get stomped every game, but the Glest AI is ancient by generational standards. 2008? University students? None of them dedicated to the AI? Not going to do too well.

I guess what I am saying is, if you worry too much about how your units interact with the AI, you may as well give up now. MegaGlest's strength is the multiplayer anyways.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 08:10:48
I'm in favor of having a mobile defense, I am just fully opposed to it being the siege weapon. The only way I could see it working is this: if the game engine was changed to allow morph on command. A move command when unpacked would cause it to morph into a packed form; just like an attack command in packed form would cause it to morph into an unpacked form.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: wciow on 4 January 2013, 13:21:57
I agree with Molaos about AI. Megaglest is mainly aimed at multiplayer, we shouldn't worry too much about single player. Unless an experienced AI coder takes an interest we might as well give up on AI being anything more than a distraction.

Regarding the siege unit, I'm leaning towards the sand golem, but I'd rather see something totally original.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 4 January 2013, 14:15:23
See how this is:
(http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/15972/images/Egyptian_Market.JPG)

Sort of angled walls and maybe a cloth cover thing in the front?

Do you think about this here, once had a few minutes time.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/25k3qiq.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 4 January 2013, 14:40:03
I ain't modeling or animating a sand golem unless I see it fitting in.

I don't care if the AI can't handle it, then it'll be more of a loose cannon with them. And hell yes ballistas do damage to buildings! Just not massive castles obviously. But a hovel would be demolished by one large ballista shot.

Azte: Spot on job, I love it! (Sorry Omega)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 4 January 2013, 16:56:03
Nice model, Atze.

Anyway, it appears the Skype conversation poured into here. I'll just copy paste my reply, which most of you probably haven't read yet anyway:

Quote
Oh, are we still arguing about this? You'd figure fantasy would be a large element in the MegaPack. After all, a bunch of humanoids with very straightforward medieval weaponry = boring. What's new or unique about that?

300 missed messages is a bit of a pain, so I mostly skimmed. I rather dislike the concept of removing the hero units, especially for a sand golem. While a sandgolem would look pretty cool in an actual desert, it'd just look awkward in a forest and seems to come out of nowhere. I rather like the choice of two heroes, as it requires the user to choose their strategies more carefully, as each hero has specific advantages. I'm personally neutral on having them summon units (so far, every hero is summoning something...), but whatever.

I'm really not sure if there's "too many" magical units in the Nomads. Unless something changed overnight, we have a magus and a flying carpet. The heroes and their summons make it look like there's more magical units than there actually is, but bear in mind you can only have two out of four, and only one of each of those (assuming that we're sticking with the ability to summon a phoenix and scorpion, which I feel is unnecessary).

I suppose you could argue about the magic well, as well (haha), but it has legitimate purposes too (upgrades) and is a rather passive defence. But anyway, the rest of the faction is very realistic. Counting just the combat units and ignoring the heroes and their summons, the realistic to magic ratio is 7:2. I think that's very reasonable.

And other aspects to remember is that the Legion faction (based on the Romans) is almost entirely magic free (lore-wise, they distrust magic). Tech has absolutely no magic, but many aspects of fantasy in its steam punk format. The woodsmen are sort of a high fantasy. O

I'd expect some degree of magic, but nothing extreme in the woodsmen. More overall, they'd be magical creatures than direct magic. Someone, for example, has already mentioned ents.

However, I believe this topic started as a discussion about an antistructure unit, a seige unit, which really is quite necessary for the nomads.

I'm not sure a ballista is the most reasonable choice to be lugging around a battlefield, nor do we want to be too similar to the battering ram.

An alternative would be to give them a sort of cannon. Now, obviously we don't want to get into guns in general, but a steam punk style cannon similar to that of the airship, pushed by a single humanoid, could make an effective nomad. The unit would be smaller and thus more nimble than most of seige units. It also has roots in history, as Constinapole fell largely due to the Turk's new weapons: cannons (granted, they were shitty slow to reload, a trait that could be carried over to such a unit here).

Also, I don't think we should get into planning the woodsmen too much yet. As it stands, we're already modeling stuff for the Njord and Nomads (but really, really need that base humanoid) and still changing stuff around like no tomorrow. We need to finalize our ideas for the two factions we're working on (but with that being said, I don't think any unit in the woodsmen should be "free").
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 17:43:33
(click to show/hide)
Looks cool, do you want to texture it, or do you want me to?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 17:44:34
While, yes, there are a few differences, I don't want players to think that we ripped off from AoM.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 4 January 2013, 18:11:31
Give me the model and Ill modify/mix some of Omega's stuff in it and texture it.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 18:14:44
Oh, and Atze? Welcome to the team!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 4 January 2013, 21:44:31
Due to the inability to reach consensus on a siege unit, I've added a poll to this topic. The three current choices are:
Obviously these share a few traits, namely that the unit is slow to move (pretty standard for a siege unit) and to attack (dat reload). The units will likely also be more vulnerable than other siege units, since they're poorly armoured units pushing or carrying large, heavy, inagile weapons. This makes them effective against buildings, but less so against other units.

Concepts to keep in mind is that all factions should feel "natural". The weapons should fit in well. In addition, the weapons should make sense.

Other glancing concepts included things like cannons on horseback, summoned mythical creatures, and siege towers.

Make what you will of it. It'd be nice if you'd give reasons for your choice, though.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: Zoythrus on 4 January 2013, 23:25:37
I am highly opposed to the use of this "impact ballista" for a few reasons:
1. The Nomads live in a desert, where wood is rather scarce. They probably use the wood for their structures and tools more than stuff that requires a lot of wood such as a ballista.
2. The Romans already have a ballista, so we don't want to be redundant.
3. IRL, ballistae are very inefficient at taking down buildings. They are excellent anti-infantry weapons, but are pathetic when used to take down things made of stone or strong wood. Now, before you say "but these have rocks on the tips!", the weight of a rock would severely weigh down the projectile, causing it to become very impractical. As you can probably bet, the Romans (who were one of the few large armies that used ballistae IRL) eschewed ballistae for anti-structure use and decided to use something that was actually effective, such as a catapult.
4. IRL, the Chinese were the first to actually start using cannons and gunpowder, but that technology was soon acquired by the Muslims (who then made it much more practical). It would make total sense for a desert faction to use very primitive firearms as weapons. Anyone with any concept of history (something we're sorta basing this refit on) would be expecting the desert guys to be using gunpowder.

I had suggested that we go with a Hand Cannoneer instead for a few reasons:
1. They are historical! Before the advent of easily portable firearms (such as the arquebus or musket), hand cannons were used. They were small enough to be portable by an infantryman, but powerful enough to do damage.
2. They make for interesting gameplay! Rarely do I find a faction's siege unit to be an infantry. I think that this would make for a very interesting unit. He'd probably do less damage than other dedicated siege units, but would be more mobile.
3. It fits the Nomads much better than a ballista. I assume that if we did have a cannon unit (whether that be a bombard or hand cannoneer), it would probably be purchased from a market (seeing as the Nomads have ties to people with the ability to forge such great weapons). So yeah, the cannoneers would be mercenaries.

Honestly, I don't care what they use as a siege weapon, as long as it's not melee (such as the Njord's) and it's not that stupid, out-of-place ballista.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 00:21:05
Um Zoy... wrong time period.... Romans?? :P
And I never said rock tipped.... it would be like a giant slingshot... not a rock tipped ballista. Trust me this would look and act quite differently than the Roman ballista. I'm not even sure it's fair to call it a ballista.

Quote
1. The Nomads live in a desert, where wood is rather scarce. They probably use the wood for their structures and tools more than stuff that requires a lot of wood such as a ballista
I'm pretty sure cannonballs are harder to find than rocks.... and you obviously can't keep using the same damn cannonballs over and over.

Quote
2. The Romans already have a ballista, so we don't want to be redundant.
Trust me this would look and act quite differently than the Roman ballista. I'm not even sure it's fair to call it a ballista.

Quote
3. IRL, ballistae are very inefficient at taking down buildings. They are excellent anti-infantry weapons, but are pathetic when used to take down things made of stone or strong wood. Now, before you say "but these have rocks on the tips!", the weight of a rock would severely weigh down the projectile, causing it to become very impractical. As you can probably bet, the Romans (who were one of the few large armies that used ballistae IRL) eschewed ballistae for anti-structure use and decided to use something that was actually effective, such as a catapult.
Again this would shoot rocks, not large arrows, this would be quite effective and there is virtually unlimited ammunition for a weapon like this.

Quote
4. IRL, the Chinese were the first to actually start using cannons and gunpowder, but that technology was soon acquired by the Muslims (who then made it much more practical). It would make total sense for a desert faction to use very primitive firearms as weapons. Anyone with any concept of history (something we're sorta basing this refit on) would be expecting the desert guys to be using gunpowder.
Time period is too late there man...

Quote
1. They are historical! Before the advent of easily portable firearms (such as the arquebus or musket), hand cannons were used. They were small enough to be portable by an infantryman, but powerful enough to do damage.
AKA a big gun. I want to keep guns out of this, they are "post-epic" era weapons entirely.

Quote
2. They make for interesting gameplay! Rarely do I find a faction's siege unit to be an infantry. I think that this would make for a very interesting unit. He'd probably do less damage than other dedicated siege units, but would be more mobile.
He would just be spammed and/or easily killed.

Quote
3. It fits the Nomads much better than a ballista. I assume that if we did have a cannon unit (whether that be a bombard or hand cannoneer), it would probably be purchased from a market (seeing as the Nomads have ties to people with the ability to forge such great weapons). So yeah, the cannoneers would be mercenaries.
Basically if some Nomads can get hold of this kind of weapon then Rome and I'm sure Njord, and Tech can too. So just no. Romans + Guns = NO.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: Zoythrus on 5 January 2013, 00:28:12
To be honest, Arch, I don't think that the "time-period argument" applies here. The Tech are essentially Renaissance Europeans (although they had guns in the Renaissance), and by that time most of the empires that we're basing these factions on have been dead for hundreds of years.

I'm suggesting here that guns are still in their infancy, and are still spreading across the world. It's why the other factions don't have them.

Now, about a giant slingshot, you did not make that clear in our discussion. You kept saying "Ballista," so don't get angry that I misunderstood you.

Oh, and deserts are full of metal ores. There's probably more metal in the desert than there is wood, so cannonballs could easily be forged.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 00:54:29
Quote
To be honest, Arch, I don't think that the "time-period argument" applies here. The Tech are essentially Renaissance Europeans (although they had guns in the Renaissance), and by that time most of the empires that we're basing these factions on have been dead for hundreds of years.
Yea I'm thinking tech is the most 'tech'nologically advanced faction with the airships and all. Magic is definitely more fitting in the 'epic' era.

Quote
I'm suggesting here that guns are still in their infancy, and are still spreading across the world. It's why the other factions don't have them.
That doesn't really work... If Nomads have guns then Rome has them too.

Quote
Oh, and deserts are full of metal ores. There's probably more metal in the desert than there is wood, so cannonballs could easily be forged.
We're not talking a fully open desert scored by the sun 23/7. It's just wood is a lot more sparse then compared too the rest of the land. Rocks > Metal Ore... That's pretty obvious. That means ammunition is practically free. Metal Ore requires a lot of work and good smithing.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: MightyMic on 5 January 2013, 01:00:57
When I think of desert nomads, I can honestly say that I cannot think of anything remotely anti-structure. I don't want to get Arch riled-up, but I think the sand monster (I was actually thinking of a djinn/genie, NOT the Persian genie) was the best idea as it fits in with the myths most people think of when they think Nomads (the djinn anyway)

imho, the anti-structure unit is going to be insanely out of place
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 01:31:24
Quote
When I think of desert nomads, I can honestly say that I cannot think of anything remotely anti-structure. I don't want to get Arch riled-up, but I think the sand monster (I was actually thinking of a djinn/genie, NOT the Persian genie) was the best idea as it fits in with the myths most people think of when they think Nomads (the djinn anyway)
Djinn isn't too bad.... It relates and fits the era well. I still like my ballista but I think both would work...

Quote
imho, the anti-structure unit is going to be insanely out of place
True.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 06:39:59
Guys the poll has been updated please vote again!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: Omega on 5 January 2013, 08:19:03
I modified the poll based on discussion. Please note that you are able to change your vote if you wish. The biggest additions are the slingshot (see the concept art) and the concept of having no siege unit. I'm of the personal opinion that the latter, while an interesting concept, doesn't work so hot due to the heavy emphasis on attack and armour types. While the Nomad's have a number of fire based attacks, making them more effective versus wooden buildings, they lack an attack type effective against metal or stone buildings, which could be problematic. We can't just raise their attack strengths, either, as that would make them too strong against infantry and cavalry without significantly changing the damage to structures. Long story short, we'd benefit more from adding a new unit with an impact or anti-structure attack.

The rock slingshot proposed by MightyMic is an interesting concept. Similar to the impact ballista idea but unique enough to set it apart from other factions.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: atze on 5 January 2013, 08:32:22
Here again a Blender render, with a few details.

(http://i46.tinypic.com/5oh30i.png)

Ok, here with 256x256 texture than g3d. (97,7 kb + 147,1 kb texture) With a few less details.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/11gokmv.png)

And here than ingame picture.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/14m6o7o.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: Zoythrus on 5 January 2013, 08:39:34
If the Djinn gets some momentum, I will switch my vote to that. I'd like to see more myth units in the Nomads.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: MuwuM on 5 January 2013, 13:39:44
I like the idea of having a Djinn as siege unit. But we still need a defensive unit...

atze, your market looks great!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Perplesso on 5 January 2013, 16:31:27
A humanoid siege unit is a good idea, because it would be unique (because other factions would have siege machines).

For the defensive unit problem, what about javelineers?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: ElimiNator on 5 January 2013, 17:10:14
(click to show/hide)
That looks cool, but remember it looks too much like the picture, maybe remove the 2 double pillar things that are holding up the cloth, add some food bins there and wood frames to hold up the cloth.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Zoythrus on 5 January 2013, 17:55:13
Hey, I can't change my vote, so I'd like everyone to know that I really want to vote for the Djinn instead of the hand cannon.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: MuwuM on 5 January 2013, 17:57:46
For the defensive unit problem, what about javelineers?

How do you want to limitate them to be just defensiv? We need some kind of stationary - defense. Or something that can not be move to easily (morph, ep-cost on move, ...) .
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Zoythrus on 5 January 2013, 18:08:39
For the defensive unit problem, what about javelineers?

How do you want to limitate them to be just defensiv? We need some kind of stationary - defense. Or something that can not be move to easily (morph, ep-cost on move, ...) .
We're going to need a turret, one that's good, but cheap to produce.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 20:00:34
Great work Atze! Elim is right about the picture similarity though.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Omega on 5 January 2013, 21:15:06
I fixed the ability to change votes. For whatever reason, only moderators and admins can set such an ability, so if the poll is edited by someone else (since it was reset), that ability is lost. Anyway, vote away.

And to keep people up to date, the djinn would likely summon a rock or similar magical property to hurl at the target.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: -Archmage- on 5 January 2013, 22:20:09
I fixed the ability to change votes. For whatever reason, only moderators and admins can set such an ability, so if the poll is edited by someone else (since it was reset), that ability is lost. Anyway, vote away.

And to keep people up to date, the djinn would likely summon a rock or similar magical property to hurl at the target.

Eh, you see the thing that makes mythical beasts awesome is when they act realistically, a troll in LOTR wouldn't be awesome if it floated around and summoned things. It's awesome because it's like a real creature. If we go the Djinn route it needs to NOT float and use a weapon and actually pick up a rock..
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Zoythrus on 5 January 2013, 22:59:52
I fixed the ability to change votes. For whatever reason, only moderators and admins can set such an ability, so if the poll is edited by someone else (since it was reset), that ability is lost. Anyway, vote away.

And to keep people up to date, the djinn would likely summon a rock or similar magical property to hurl at the target.

Eh, you see the thing that makes mythical beasts awesome is when they act realistically, a troll in LOTR wouldn't be awesome if it floated around and summoned things. It's awesome because it's like a real creature. If we go the Djinn route it needs to NOT float and use a weapon and actually pick up a rock..
Djinn are beings of magic in the first place, so it makes sense for them to float and levitate things. I'm fine with levitation, but I think it'd be more interesting if they had legs (maybe with some teamcolored, misty particle effect around them to make them look magical.)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 00:48:15
A new poll needs to be done, we've come to a consensus on better options that aren't even in the poll...  This is a mess.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: MuwuM on 6 January 2013, 01:43:56
In our discussion we came up with 3 suitable siege units:
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 01:53:18
In our discussion we came up with 3 suitable siege units:
  • A rock slingshot (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/982/bouldershot1.png) -  :thumbup: Historically correct  :thumbdown: no magic
  • A Djinn (http://www.maps4heroes.com/heroes5/pictures/tribes_of_the_east/alternate_upgrades/toe_academy_Djinn_Vizier.jpg) -  :thumbup: pure magic  :thumbdown: NO genies
  • A ntouka (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070326195005/gw/images/2/2b/Rampaging_Ntouka.jpg)  :thumbup: based on the  mythology  :thumbdown: not much magic
A rock slingshot is not historically correct.

Right now we're discussing a Djinn with a ntouka mount. That seems to be the best bet right now.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [poll reset, due to new option]
Post by: MuwuM on 6 January 2013, 02:33:07
Ok, we found something extremly cool, RISEN ONEs

At first it's a strong sandstone tower. But after a morph it becomes a risen one, a large living tower, dealing heavy anti-structure damage as meele-land and meele-air unit.

Concept-Art:
(http://dream.heroesofnewerth.com/images/assets/art/25642.png?1313046661)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 02:38:19
As I nice little concept, the Risen One will count as both as a ground and an air unit, meaning that even anti-air units can hit it! Oh yeah, it's going to be awesome. Sorry that the poll essentially meant nothing, you should all be more active on Skype!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 02:46:46
This thing is gonna make you think "oh shit", and it's pretty much up too hands and myself to create this, so wish us luck! ;D
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 04:52:02
Okay then, now that we have both the defense tower and siege unit worked out, we're missing something important - a logo. Each faction needs a faction symbol, so what should the Nomads' be?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 6 January 2013, 05:24:05
Okay then, now that we have both the defense tower and siege unit worked out, we're missing something important - a logo. Each faction needs a faction symbol, so what should the Nomads' be?
Horse. Symbolizing speed and mobility. The wolf of the Njord symbolizes strength and aggression.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 05:59:35
Funny, Atze had already modeled a market before... :P
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8104.msg81204#msg81204
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 06:23:34
Okay then, now that we have both the defense tower and siege unit worked out, we're missing something important - a logo. Each faction needs a faction symbol, so what should the Nomads' be?
Horse. Symbolizing speed and mobility. The wolf of the Njord symbolizes strength and aggression.
I imagine a silhouette of a horse with a fiery mane on its back legs, poised to strike.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 6 January 2013, 07:16:02
Like this?
http://i.imgur.com/3E16S.png
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 07:26:22
Like this?
http://i.imgur.com/3E16S.png

I was thinking more like this:
(http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/60953-Shadow%20of%20Death/953/95/twilightsparkle_fieryragesmall_display.gif)

But that works, too. :P

(Haha, in all seriousness, that's exactly what I was thinking.)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 6 January 2013, 07:28:58
Funny, Atze had already modeled a market before... :P
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8104.msg81204#msg81204
The new one is way better.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 08:12:58
+1 Omega. :thumbup:
Zoy... I'll tell you on Skype you mother.

Funny, Atze had already modeled a market before... :P
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=8104.msg81204#msg81204
The new one is way better.

True, but I love them both. :thumbup:
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 08:16:51
Zoy... I'll tell you on Skype you mother.
8)

Anyways, does everyone agree on using the pic (or a variation thereof) that Omega posted?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: atze on 6 January 2013, 09:47:22
(click to show/hide)
That looks cool, but remember it looks too much like the picture, maybe remove the 2 double pillar things that are holding up the cloth, add some food bins there and wood frames to hold up the cloth.

ElimiNator, do you mean something like this? Sorry, I can not really English and google-translator confused :o sometimes.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/28hh8pk.png)

Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 09:57:41
Zoy... I'll tell you on Skype you mother.
8)

Anyways, does everyone agree on using the pic (or a variation thereof) that Omega posted?
Hands is already developing the pony horse and logo. :look:

(click to show/hide)
That looks cool, but remember it looks too much like the picture, maybe remove the 2 double pillar things that are holding up the cloth, add some food bins there and wood frames to hold up the cloth.

ElimiNator, do you mean something like this? Sorry, I can not really English and google-translator confused :o sometimes.

(click to show/hide)


Better! I would add more crates and goods. :)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 6 January 2013, 10:02:19
Very good work atze! You have done an awesome job!
Although I actually perfered the older version of your model. I wouldn't worry about making the model look different from the picture. The game it is from is almost 15 years old, and the company which developed it is now out of business. Even so making a model 100% from scratch which is sort of based off of a single (Very generic) unit  from a new game would still be okay. No one would ever reallu care :D.

The texture could use much work though. It is currently pretty basic, other than that the model is perfect!
Also get on dropbox and skype if you can, I would personally love to see you contribute more if you're willing!

P.S what happened to all the pots and crates you showed in your earlier pictures? :(

Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 6 January 2013, 11:15:19
...
P.S what happened to all the pots and crates you showed in your earlier pictures? :(

The model is duch the goods then twice as large. (Is now at 183.9 kb.)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 6 January 2013, 14:16:49
Here is a Blender render of the stables, where I am currently. What say you?

(http://i49.tinypic.com/154u3qt.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 6 January 2013, 16:56:40
It's a good start, fitting great to the style of the market...

It would be awesome to have the models of some horses (and the camel) standing in the stables ;-)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads [new poll]
Post by: ElimiNator on 6 January 2013, 17:36:58
(click to show/hide)
Awesome!

(click to show/hide)
Looks good but it will need animals.

OK guys I am starting work on the camel.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 6 January 2013, 18:08:12
Hey guys, I have a gameplay idea that I want to run past you. What if all cavalry are mercs (and thus, produced at the market) but require a stable before purchase? The stable itself might have an upgrade or something, but it doesnt actually train anything.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 January 2013, 19:11:26
Great job Atze! Do you have a Skype account? Dropbox?
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 6 January 2013, 22:04:56
Hey guys, I have a gameplay idea that I want to run past you. What if all cavalry are mercs (and thus, produced at the market) but require a stable before purchase? The stable itself might have an upgrade or something, but it doesnt actually train anything.
I'm rather happy with the current production, especially since the cavalry are the heart of the faction.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 7 January 2013, 08:38:00
Great job Atze! Do you have a Skype account? Dropbox?

Thanks :). No. No.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 7 January 2013, 08:50:25
Do you have a Skype account? Dropbox?

 No. No.
You should get them, it's much faster to share work and ideas using them. We are using them for communication in the Refit and sharing work, to get a fast implementation of the new stuff...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 7 January 2013, 09:18:57
We're actually planning a move to Google Drive. Atze it would be best to wait until we are setup on google drive. Get a skype if you want to chat with the team.
You mentioned you use Google Translate? Can you speak english without it? Otherwise skype won't work too well for you.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: luisxD on 29 January 2013, 18:35:31
 :-[ :-[ :-[  I'm not going against your idea, but I think unifying the two factions you will end up confusing, since Egyptians and Persians were different people with different beliefs, legends, and cultures. My simple (and maybe crazy) opinion.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 29 January 2013, 18:44:55
The idea is not to have just a merge of egyptians and persians, but a new (fantasy) desert-faction, which is based on the historically nations of eygpts and persians.

+ The problem will be that, it will never be completed and not that the concept is not historically correct.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 29 January 2013, 20:18:46
The idea is not to have just a merge of egyptians and persians, but a new (fantasy) desert-faction, which is based on the historically nations of eygpts and persians.
I would say that its not even based on Egyptians or Persians except in the loosest form. Rather, it's a universe of its own with its own backstory. But if factions are being replaced, this faction is replacing both Egypt and Persia.

And it can be completed if we can maintain work on it. Unfortunately, I've found that with the resume of classes, I once more have no spare time on my hands...
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Psychedelic_hands on 30 January 2013, 01:51:06
+ The problem will be that, it will never be completed and not that the concept is not historically correct.

Don't say you've given up already! With this many people willing work, If enough of us get really commited we can easily do it.
Sorry I've been away for the last few weeks, a lack of a computer does that. BUT! I'll try to stir up some more development.

Atze, can you please upload your excellent models somewhere for us to download. Or if you have some kind of google account you can be added to the google drive, which will make collaboration much easier. I don't want to see those models go to waste!
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MightyMic on 30 January 2013, 02:12:43
+ The problem will be that, it will never be completed and not that the concept is not historically correct.

I have continued to work, despite school and work... I hope that the rest of the people involved with Megapack Refit will continue to work as well. Right now I'm trying to make my textures look better.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 30 January 2013, 08:30:50
...
Atze, can you please upload your excellent models somewhere for us to download.
...

Here only the first, the market-g3d-model (stand). The size of the file, due to the size of two 2048x2048 textures.

download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/lwzcld (http://www.sendspace.com/file/lwzcld)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 30 January 2013, 18:54:45
Here is a picture of my progress on the camel rider:

(http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy127/Elimiator/camel_zps3e045dec.jpg)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 30 January 2013, 23:18:33
Here is a picture of my progress on the camel rider:

(click to show/hide)

really nice work, great  :thumbup: i like it.  :)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 1 March 2013, 00:08:55
As there were no real progress the last days I started to retexture some models from other mods to get a playable version for testing & balancing

So far I have:
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/843/unitse.png) (http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5302/unitse.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Zoythrus on 1 March 2013, 05:31:48
These will have to do until we can get something better.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 1 March 2013, 08:00:09
Great job MuwuM :thumbup:, so you continue to test / work can here once the stables. Texture is not really finished, I've tinkered only one quick look at the UV map.  :angel:

download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/scx0lm (http://www.sendspace.com/file/scx0lm)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 2 March 2013, 06:23:07
Here is a palace for the Desert Nomads Group. With different textures. Preview shows screens with 1024x1024 texture. Everything is not really finished. However, to further test, it should be enough for now.

preview texture 01:

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2mmfk1w.png)

preview texture 02:
(click to show/hide)

preview texture 03:
(click to show/hide)

download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/l9hm0r (http://www.sendspace.com/file/l9hm0r)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 2 March 2013, 18:16:19
I like texture 2 the best.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 4 March 2013, 20:51:33
ok, I made a bit of progress:

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/96/screen37p.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/562/screen37p.jpg)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 4 March 2013, 22:53:18
Here is a download for the testversion (http://muwum.net/glest/vegatech.7z)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 5 March 2013, 08:04:05
Okay, good work MuwuM  :thumbup: , but where are the artists of the team  :look: , work with all its ? (icons, models ... ) Anyway, just a thought.

Here a obelisk model. (Is still in development.)

preview:  (http://i46.tinypic.com/1zr2rt1.png)

download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6gc5x1 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/6gc5x1)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 5 March 2013, 09:55:11
but where are the artists of the team  :look: , work with all its ? (icons, models ... ) Anyway, just a thought.

I thought I used everything i have ... our Google Drive is very confusing, as we have many folders containing nothing... :(

... I just have the well and your models + the old market from omega
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 5 March 2013, 10:19:59
but where are the artists of the team  :look: , work with all its ? (icons, models ... ) Anyway, just a thought.

I thought I used everything i have ... our Google Drive is very confusing, as we have many folders containing nothing... :(

... I just have the well and your models + the old market from omega

That's a shame. :( Perhaps most are just in a creative break. ;)

Here are idea´s for the icon background. (png and svg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/1iobw9.png)

download: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6clssk (http://www.sendspace.com/file/6clssk)

Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: MuwuM on 5 March 2013, 10:27:24
looks great  :thumbup: maybe I will do some icon-work this evening (after finishing the tower and adding the obelisk).
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: atze on 5 March 2013, 14:38:31
Here are 2 versions, is just an idea. ;) What mean you?

version 1: (http://i48.tinypic.com/24y4rxu.png)(http://i47.tinypic.com/28chvl4.png)(http://i50.tinypic.com/2jciiyo.png)(http://i48.tinypic.com/2644bpi.png)
version 2: (http://i50.tinypic.com/14wyjva.png)(http://i50.tinypic.com/1gn637.png)(http://i45.tinypic.com/256vhgy.png)(http://i49.tinypic.com/1z30wex.png)
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: -Archmage- on 6 March 2013, 08:49:52
I'm very busy video editing, and Crysis 3 came out so naturally...... yea.
What I really feel like designing right now is an extreme forest tileset that looks as real as possible, but I will save my creative juices for character modelling. :P

Atze, I already took the old obelisk model and enhanced it, if you just retextured that it would be great. I had it fracturing and falling apart for a dying animation and I'd really rather not do that again.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: Omega on 7 March 2013, 20:22:49
Here are 2 versions, is just an idea. ;) What mean you?

version 1: (http://i48.tinypic.com/24y4rxu.png)(http://i47.tinypic.com/28chvl4.png)(http://i50.tinypic.com/2jciiyo.png)(http://i48.tinypic.com/2644bpi.png)
version 2: (http://i50.tinypic.com/14wyjva.png)(http://i50.tinypic.com/1gn637.png)(http://i45.tinypic.com/256vhgy.png)(http://i49.tinypic.com/1z30wex.png)
I rather like version 1. It feels more natural.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: ElimiNator on 21 June 2013, 04:23:10
I think version 1 looks a bit plain.
Title: Re: MegaGlest Refit - Desert Nomads
Post by: jammyjamjamman on 21 June 2013, 22:35:09
They both look good. Version 2 though suffers from too much saturation and version 1 suffers from too little. Version 1 I think is closer to what I'd be looking for but It'd also be nice to give the cactus a slightly darker, more blueish shade of green. Another option in a completely different direction would be to to create icons based on the concept-art such as the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Illustrerad_Verldshistoria_band_I_Ill_004.jpg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Illustrerad_Verldshistoria_band_I_Ill_004.jpg) shown earlier, although I think your icons are a good base design :).