Messages

32 Bit Version of Megaglest is affected too.

terminal shows:

[spoiler]

Code Select Expand



E:\MG32\MegaGlest>megaglest.exe
megaglest.exe v3.12.0
Compiled using: VC++: 1900 platform: Windows endianness: little
GIT: [Rev: 5421.0fcffb1] - using STREFLOP [SSE] - [no-denormals]
Auto Change resolution to (2560 x 1440) from (800 x 600)
MainWindow forced change of resolution to desktop values (2560 x 1440) instead of (800 x 600)
Error saved to logfile [E:\MG32\MegaGlest\user\log/error.log]
*ERROR* [2016-03-08 09:55:36] In [..\..\..\source\glest_game\main\main.cpp::Glest::Game::ExceptionHandler::handleRuntimeError Line: 643] [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
00000000 00000000 00000000 68acefa0 NtGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +18
00000000 00000000 00000000 68acefa0 NtGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +18
] gameInitialized = 1, program = 011B77D8

=====================================

** Already in error handler exiting errror rendering, msg [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
00000000 00000000 00000000 68a33fc0 NtGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +18
00000000 00000000 00000000 68a33fc0 NtGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +18
]

======= In MinidumpCallback...

***ERROR details captured:
Crash minidump folder: E:\MG32\MegaGlest\user\log\
file: fb24b911-2cb1-4b5f-8059-af4bf5c754c7.dmp
Succeeded: 1

[/spoiler]

crashdump:
http://www.fastshare.org/download/fb24b911_2cb1_4b5f_8059_af4bf5c754c7.zip

MG64 3.12 produces no crashdump, terminal shows:

[spoiler]

Code Select Expand


megaglestx64.exe v3.12.0
Compiled using: VC++: 1900 [64bit] platform: Windows-X64 endianness: little
GIT: [Rev: 5421.0fcffb1] - using STREFLOP [SSE] - [no-denormals]
Error saved to logfile [E:\MegaGlest\user\log/error.log]
*ERROR* [2016-03-08 10:13:14] In [..\..\..\source\glest_game\main\main.cpp::Glest::Game::ExceptionHandler::handleRuntimeError Line: 643] [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
e9da47da 00000001 0011ac80 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +10
4047dfc7 fffffffe 0011ac80 0011ac80 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4047d383 0011d980 0011d9b8 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401ce656 0898e878 02b7f0c0 0898e878 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401d712c 40c0ed10 00000000 0000028a ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401dcde7 408eefb8 400c34bb 00000307 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402f1376 0011df00 00000000 40c0f650 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402432e1 0814ce30 00000000 0814ce30 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023e09e 408ed710 00000000 00000001 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f0de 042fa650 042fa650 02904c10 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f97c 77400000 77461a40 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023a4f7 002854b0 00000001 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407c837e 002854b0 0012feb8 64040c0b ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407829b4 40e2e478 40e2ec50 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1427294
774159ed 00000000 00000000 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1142164
7764b371 00000000 00000000 00000000 BaseThreadInitThunk!kernel32 (null)(0) +13
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
] gameInitialized = 1, program = 000000000288F7A0

=====================================

** Already in error handler exiting errror rendering, msg [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
e9da47da 00000001 00115a80 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +10
4047dfc7 fffffffe 00115a80 00115a80 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4047d383 00118780 001187b8 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401ce656 0898e878 02b7f0c0 0898e878 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401d712c 40c0ed10 00000000 0000028a ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401dcde7 408eefb8 400c34bb 00000307 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402f1376 00118d00 00000000 40c0f650 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402432e1 0814ce30 00000000 0814ce30 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023e09e 408ed710 00000000 00000001 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
40224293 037ad900 037ad900 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
40223df4 d33cdfb2 0011d210 0288f7a0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
40841863 00000000 00120580 0011d210 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4078dbc0 40841756 00120580 00120580 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1924163
40786288 40841756 0011c908 00000100 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1187744
7766cd51 00000000 0011d840 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1156712
4021f0de 042fa650 042fa650 02904c10 RtlRestoreContext!ntdll (null)(0) +738
4021f97c 77400000 77461a40 002854b0 RtlRestoreContext!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023a4f7 002854b0 00000001 002854b0 RtlRestoreContext!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407c837e 002854b0 0012feb8 64040c0b RtlRestoreContext!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407829b4 40e2e478 40e2ec50 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1427294
774159ed 00000000 00000000 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1142164
7764b371 00000000 00000000 00000000 BaseThreadInitThunk!kernel32 (null)(0) +13
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
]
*ERROR* [2016-03-08 10:13:15] Access violation. Illegal read by 1076070587 at 05371037883|Unknown module|Unknown function
5379880860|Unknown module|Unknown function
1158176|Unknown module|Unknown function
2003230858|Unknown module|Unknown function
5369505730|Unknown module|Unknown functio [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
e9da47da 00000001 0011ac80 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +10
4047dfc7 fffffffe 0011ac80 0011ac80 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4047d383 0011d980 0011d9b8 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401ce656 0898e878 02b7f0c0 0898e878 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401d712c 40c0ed10 00000000 0000028a ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401dcde7 408eefb8 400c34bb 00000307 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402f1376 0011df00 00000000 40c0f650 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402432e1 0814ce30 00000000 0814ce30 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023e09e 408ed710 00000000 00000001 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f0de 042fa650 042fa650 02904c10 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f97c 77400000 77461a40 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023a4f7 002854b0 00000001 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407c837e 002854b0 0012feb8 64040c0b ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407829b4 40e2e478 40e2ec50 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1427294
774159ed 00000000 00000000 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1142164
7764b371 00000000 00000000 00000000 BaseThreadInitThunk!kernel32 (null)(0) +13
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
]
*ERROR* [2016-03-08 10:13:46] Access violation. Illegal read by 1074581745 at 85993608165369549041|Unknown module|Unknown function
2003230858|Unknown module|Unknown function
5369505730|Unknown module|Unknown function
188705361353387|Unknown module|Unknown function
188705361346875|Unknown  [font->getTextHandler() == NULL (5)
Stack Trace:
e9da47da 00000001 0011ac80 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!ntdll (null)(0) +10
4047dfc7 fffffffe 0011ac80 0011ac80 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4047d383 0011d980 0011d9b8 00000000 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401ce656 0898e878 02b7f0c0 0898e878 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401d712c 40c0ed10 00000000 0000028a ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
401dcde7 408eefb8 400c34bb 00000307 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402f1376 0011df00 00000000 40c0f650 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
402432e1 0814ce30 00000000 0814ce30 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023e09e 408ed710 00000000 00000001 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f0de 042fa650 042fa650 02904c10 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4021f97c 77400000 77461a40 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
4023a4f7 002854b0 00000001 002854b0 ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407c837e 002854b0 0012feb8 64040c0b ZwGetContextThread!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +0
407829b4 40e2e478 40e2ec50 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1427294
774159ed 00000000 00000000 00000000 SDL_wcslen!megaglestx64 (null)(0) +1142164
7764b371 00000000 00000000 00000000 BaseThreadInitThunk!kernel32 (null)(0) +13
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 RtlUserThreadStart!ntdll (null)(0) +33
]
[/spoiler]

32Bit Version of Megaglest is affected too.

32Bit Version of Megaglest is affected too.

Titi says its already known, that MG64 3.12 chrashes on windows on exit after being online in Masterserver-lobby. He suspected that this an issue of WIN 10. But its happening on WIN7 64 too.
Its enough to visit the Masterserver-Lobby omce to get a crash on exit (after closing opengl-screen).

After an onlinegame with Titi yesterday I got an errormessage on exit which I show below. Maybe its just something with IRC? Other crashes on exit showed no messages.



Greetz nig.

Acutally, that applies to almost all keyboard hotkeys while playing MegaGlest in that version.

Cannot reproduce that. Other Hotkeys are working fine, no crash on exit.

Greets
nig

MG64 3.12-dev is affected too showing:



greetz
nig

Reproduce:

change language in option screen
press save

used colourprofil seems to be changed (slightly changings in colour) and MG freezes with fatal error:



after restart the set language is used fine. Tested with german and english.

Maybe this one relates to installed colourprofiles because of the seen changes.
Colourprofiles woud be nice! Thanks!

Greets
nig

its not possible since mg 3.12 to get to the desktop by pressing the windows key.
When you press the windowskey when MG is running, the taskbar is displayed, but game (or lobby or optionscreen) is still displayed. If you click something on taskbar the taskbar disappears again.

And:
go to the MG-Gameserver-Lobby,
press windows key,
Close MG by using the return and exit buttons,
>>>> MG crashes after closing its screens.

3.12-dev is affected with this issues too.

greets
nig

After spending 2 days getting Visualstudio2015 to work I tried the scenario.

and I am still crying.



please do not block...

know your noobs and help them, or block their ip in special game, but not the lobby.
do not pegida, you kindle!

greets
nig

finally found it:

By default on windows the c++ compilers are not installed by installing visualstudio community 2015.

After installing visualstudio community 2015 you can install the c++ SDK by trying to open an own softwareobject. Do this:

You need to launch Visual studio, then do: file > new > project, in the window than opened, select "Model > Visual C++" and in the middle of the window you should see a button "install microsoft C++" or something like that, click on it and it will launch the install process for the C++ & Microsoft SDK.

Be ready to watch your machine again installing for half an hour, eating another GB. Of course i get the incompatibilitywarning again:


But who cares? Ican build my own megaglrst64.dev again, enjoing being blocked from lobby!

There might be some installation-properties you can set at first installing of "visualstudio community 2015" to avoid this fumbling around. Maybe someone checks that out and put it to the compiling WIKI.
Dont expect Windowsusers to do researches like this. There is a reason, why they are not at Linux.

greets
nig

As I tried to build a new Version of Megaglest from Github these days I have to see that my building programs seem to be outdated (with a look at the compiling Doc, still hard to find at https://docs.megaglest.org/MG/Windows_Compiling)

So I scratched all my old Visual and C++ installs manually to avoid confusions amd updated my git to 2.7.1.windows.1 (32Bit, because the old one was 32 Bit too).

After that I installed Visual Studio Community 2015. There was an Errormessage during that:

well, ....

after that I followed the compiling wiki and the build script couldnt find "msbuild". Googling around  I found: seems to be a bug in Frameworks or configuration, no known solutions, just workarounds. So I set a path in windowsenvironmet to the newest msbuild.exe I found. (lots of msbuild.exe are on the machine).

now all building scripts stop like this:

[spoiler]C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppBuild.targets(366,5): warning MSB8003: Could not find WindowsSDKDir variable from the registry.  TargetFrameworkVersion or Platform
Toolset may be set to an invalid version number. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\g2xml.vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppBuild.targets(366,5): warning MSB8003: Could not find WindowsSDKDir variable from the registry.  TargetFrameworkVersion or Platform
Toolset may be set to an invalid version number. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\xml2g.vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppCommon.targets(356,5): error MSB6006: "CL.exe" wurde mit dem Code 5 beendet. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\g2xml.
vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppCommon.targets(356,5): error MSB6006: "CL.exe" wurde mit dem Code 5 beendet. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\xml2g.
vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppBuild.targets(366,5): warning MSB8003: Could not find WindowsSDKDir variable from the registry.  TargetFrameworkVersion or Platform
Toolset may be set to an invalid version number. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\shared_lib.vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppCommon.targets(356,5): error MSB6006: "CL.exe" wurde mit dem Code 5 beendet. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\shared
_lib.vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\Microsoft.CppBuild.targets(366,5): warning MSB8003: Could not find WindowsSDKDir variable from the registry.  TargetFrameworkVersion or Platform
Toolset may be set to an invalid version number. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\libstreflop.vcxproj]
C:\Program Files (x86)\MSBuild\Microsoft.Cpp\v4.0\V140\BuildCustomizations\masm.targets(50,5): error MSB4174: Die Aufgabenfactory "XamlTaskFactory" wurde nicht in der Microsoft.Build.Tasks.v4.0, Vers
ion=4.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=b03f5f7f11d50a3a-Assembly gefunden. [E:\silk\git\megaglest-source\mk\windoze\vc2015\libstreflop.vcxproj][/spoiler]

please help

nig

naa, dont block anyone. Community should manage noobs and trolls.
Maybe its a good idea to have a noob or test flag on games, so that bored pros can avoid those games and noobs can have a try with each other.

please, do not block something. Its just ugly and will not stop any troll having fun with you. But it will dissapoint new players- and we want them, right?

greets
nig

 on [Rev: 4951.d34e58c]  boosted units have shine again.
and i get an unhandled error on the first attack of the general...
crash.dmp:
http://www.fastshare.org/download/e9dd11b8_8fc4_4dd1_ab9d_4013343de54d.zip

second try MG stayed stable.

Greetz
nig.

still nothing...

Hi!
Maybe nothing serious:
I played  v.3.10.0-beta1 [Rev: 4905.58cba20] on Win7 64 and recognized, that the roman general does not show his halo as in the other versions of MG. There are no halos on the affected units too.

did you cancel roman generalism in 3.10?

Greetz
nig

Tried megaglest-binary-win64-x86_64-3.9.1.7z today again on different machine (WIN7 64) with Tomr.
Same error. This time I saved a console output:

Code Select Expand

megaglest.exe v3.9.1
Compiled using: VC++: 1700 [64bit] on: Jan 18 2014 17:14:00 platform: Windows-X6
4 endianness: little
GIT: [Rev: 4628.11ac54a]
***WARNING*** Windows network throttling is enabled, value: 10
Please set: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Mult
imedia\SystemProfile
Key: NetworkThrottlingIndex to the value: FFFFFFFF
Game unique identifier is: ad0ccfd2-8a7f-11e3-9d7c-5fa859f8ebfa
*ERROR* [2014-01-31 15:11:19] Access violation. Illegal read by 1996522377 at 26
396168441521996522377|Unknown module|Unknown function
985781952|Unknown module|Unknown function
1774693364|Unknown module|Unknown function
1996693386|Unknown module|Unknown function
5369248722|Unknown module|U []
*ERROR* [2014-01-31 15:11:38] In [network_interface.cpp::Glest::Game::NetworkInt
erface::DisplayErrorMessage Line: 198] sErr [Server has Disconnected.]

Greetz
nig

found a screenshot of error:
(click to enlarge)

Hi!
I tried the binaries in megaglest-binary-win64-x86_64-3.9.1.7z and have to report that there is no networkgame possible for me on my machine. (WIN 7 64Bit).
I get unknown errors and access violation after the game run a few minutes. every game broke. I think tom made some world-logs of those games. I gave him some console-output too, i think. (tom, that was that very late-night-session!). The game breakes too with no logging.

binary pack megaglest-binary-win32-i386-3.9.1.7z seems to work fine on my machine.

please have alook at that

greetz
nig.

I agree a "low profil" for running Megaglest on older machines would be nice.

Dont ask for more polygones. I am afraid the necessary resources to a run a bigger game with fun are already too high.

For completeness of the thread I have to say, that MG is definitly not running on a eeePC ( I bought one to do that and gave up disappointed after tests with Win7 32 and Ubuntu 12.04LTS with Megaglest 3.6.0.3.)

After your post I tried again today with Megagaglest 3.9.0 and its more impossible than ever.

Maybe you are able to start a game and have a few moves with 150 units or so... but MG 3.6.0.3 goes down to 3 FPS if there are about 300 units in the game ( try scenario Egypt Mayhem!).

MG 3.9.0. is going down at about 200 units on WIN7 32 with full processor load, even if you cancel shadows and animated tilesets in video-options.

I think its time to offer a system requirement vor MG to avoid frustration of newbies.

The last sys-requirement I found is for 3.5.1. and sais:

multi-core CPU (modern CPU series with at least two cores of at least 1.5 Ghz recommended

that is way too less nowadays.. This worked with MG and just Techs and Magic in ancient times I am afraid.

Greets
nig

you only talk about the megalest64.exe   - like yesterday. (thats one reason why I might messed up openAL.dll and megaglest64.exe Revisions yesterday).

With the openAL.dll hours before this one is in Benchmark about 40, 30

with the openAL.dll you uploaded at 08-Nov-2013 22:54 this one run Benchmark with 40,130 Hooray!

you can have an idea of the performance at the loadingscreen of the factions: on bad performance it slows down too....
At the first try of this last, good performing combination MG freezed while loading factions. Huh?
Afterward its works like a charm. i tried three times.
It might be important for testing, that the change from one version to an other on windows will have difficulties at the first run. is there anything resident when MG is quitted?

I thought often, that the first loading of factions after booting windows is slower than afterwards ..

Greets
nig

yesterday we had a big testing session with 64Bit binary.
Unfortunatly there was no happy end. Today I installed a new chipset-driver and found, that there is a 64Bit build, which works fine for me.
But its its not the last one you can find on softcoder.megaglest.org/megaglest64.exe.

I put it here: http://www.fastshare.org/download/64goo..7z

This one works fine in playing szenarios alone. The actual does not.
Playing the benchmarkscenario shows, that its performance is very similar to the 32 Bit binary.

My Benchmark-results:
softcoder.megaglest.org/megaglest64.exe            39,24
http://www.fastshare.org/download/64goo..7z    40, 130
32bit 4753                                                             40, 129

Greets
nig

update: softcoder.megaglest.org now with 39, 30

same behaviour

http://pastebin.com/p3bVfSXB

done.

Code Select Expand


[url=http://pastebin.com/jpErW4jN]http://pastebin.com/jpErW4jN[/url]

copied this last build to a different machine Win7 64 pro.

it stopps there too.

console:

Code Select Expand

[url=http://pastebin.com/nXiqunpM]http://pastebin.com/nXiqunpM[/url]

it still stopps

console

Code Select Expand

[url=http://pastebin.com/Z0dNBVtB]http://pastebin.com/Z0dNBVtB[/url]
dmp:

Code Select Expand

[url=http://www.fastshare.org/download/megaglestv3.8_de5..7z]http://www.fastshare.org/download/megaglestv3.8_de5..7z[/url]

fumbling around, i aware that  the big freeze occures at different times depending on different scenarios. tough_duel for example is stable for a longer time. (console:

Code Select Expand

[url=http://pastebin.com/KfUJX5Ns]http://pastebin.com/KfUJX5Ns[/url] dmp:

Code Select Expand

[url=http://www.fastshare.org/download/megaglestv3.8_de6..7z]http://www.fastshare.org/download/megaglestv3.8_de6..7z[/url] ) so may be its a faction in action causing the error?

This breaks after 4,5 min:

Code Select Expand

[url=http://www.fastshare.org/download/randomfun.xml]http://www.fastshare.org/download/randomfun.xml[/url]

edit: Setting game speed to higer values let the error appear earlier...