Author Topic: tech stronger than magic?  (Read 62925 times)

modman

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #100 on: 17 May 2009, 20:54:41 »
I would just like to point out that it is highly improbable that both factions are perfectly balanced.  There are so many variables.

What I would like to do is enhance both factions by adding units to both.  I have been in favor of this ever since I mastered both factions.  I have already started a good list on a topic below.  Please help me with this project!

https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=4124.0
« Last Edit: 17 May 2009, 21:02:45 by modman »

orion

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #101 on: 17 May 2009, 21:32:32 »
The Unofficial Guide To Using the Magic Faction

I've battled 3 tech cpu ultras and won (only once though), so I fell pretty confident in my abilities.  Hope this helps all who are awkward playing with the magic faction.

General Information

Magic has all kinds of units that do various things. Many try to produce every single one of these units during the game. Let me begin by telling you that you SHOULD NOT DO THIS. While the magic faction has a lot units, some them are unnecessary and, frankly, a waste of time. DO NOT MAKE BEHEMOTHS OR DAEMONS. Behemoths take a very long time to make and they die before they can even do anything significant. Making behemoths also requires that you keep harvesting wood, something you don't want to do to much of. Daemons are a waste of gold. While they may only cost 50 gold, summoning too much of them is a waste seeing as how they die quickly. I only summon 2 daemons. When they die, I summon 2 more. Use them for scouting and nothing more.

Summoners and drakes (summoners get promoted to drakes) are another story. I use them a lot. Drakes are fantastic for hit and run strategies since they're so fast. I usually send my main force head strong into the enemy and then have a group of drakes appear behind the enemy. This is a very effective strategy as it ambushes the enemy force, making them fight in 2 different fronts. It's kind of advanced so I wouldn't use it until you get the hang of things.

Ghost Armor are extreemely useful when paired with archmages. Ghost Armors have the same walking speed as archmages and they have high resistance. They'll probably die, but the objective is to not let any melee units close to your archmages. The enemy units get too close to the archmages, then they will use their attack killing themselves in the process.

To Be Continued....

orion

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #102 on: 19 May 2009, 20:48:54 »
I started typing a guide on both magic and tech yesterday. I'll post it when it's finished. I dedicate it to you, archmage101. Hopefully, by the time you finish reading it, you'll be able to beat your dad.

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #103 on: 19 May 2009, 21:09:33 »
Great, and when your done, can I post it on the Glest Guide (with credits)?
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

orion

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #104 on: 19 May 2009, 22:22:02 »
Sure.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #105 on: 20 May 2009, 03:21:58 »
Quote
I dedicate it to you, archmage101. Hopefully, by the time you finish reading it, you'll be able to beat your dad.

thanks
my multiplayer doesn't really work, so i'll just have to set up some hard custom games, that hopefully i'll be able to beat :P

but in multiplayer i would do quite good against him, cause the one thing that makes him deadly is he pauses the game a lot and does a whole bunch of orders in pause and then when there's a battle he pauses and sends a lot of forces
.......wait, can you pause the game in multiplayer? ???
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

orion

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #106 on: 20 May 2009, 22:16:04 »
Technically, pausing the game is cheating. It defeats the whole purpose of an RTS (Real Time Strategy) game. Games like glest are meant to be played "real time". Hope I'm not being offensive, but your dad's a cheater.

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #107 on: 21 May 2009, 18:50:41 »
I agree with orion. However, this is becoming VERY offtopic, and is the sort of bane of the moderators.

Let this be the last post before we go back to 'tech stronger than magic?':

You can pause in multiplayer with the setting in the GAE ini.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #108 on: 22 May 2009, 23:01:53 »
well for my Dad it's not cheating cause he has a Parkinsons disease type thing so his hands shake and it's hard for him play glest without pausing and relaxing his hands, besides the game moves rather fast sometimes and can require great speed to save your camp, but for my dad that's not easy at all.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

glestsstiscool

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #109 on: 27 May 2009, 18:46:16 »
Yes, I always win.

modman

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #110 on: 31 May 2009, 04:03:26 »
I think that this topic is supposed to be about why Tech always beats Magic (The CPUs do, at least).

I made a post a while back that I believe explains it very well...

Mark

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #111 on: 4 July 2009, 02:17:52 »
It is quite interesting to follow this conversation.

Here is why:
-you all are trying to reword how the archmage is only formidable when used by a experienced player, not a cpu.
-the factions are technically balanced.
-magic is for advanced players, and tech for beginners, and lastly,
-sadly, archmage 101, you're dad is a cheater.  Call it what you like, sugarcoat it, its true.  Not having to harvest gold is a very unfair advantage.

I must say i agree that the archmage is best when used by a human.  I once was fighting a large horde of behemoths, daemons and archmages on the map forest lands.  I had 1 drake rider which i would use to lure the enemy around the map.  I would stop my running to do flares, which were very helpful for damaging multiple foes from afar.  The archmages would move into range and attack with their slow moving "ice nova" which repeatedly damaged the foes.  While doing this, i had a separate army of dragons pursuing the horde and picking off straggling archmages.  In less than two minutes, I had defeated all the archmages and simply picked off the rest of the units with my dragons.  Meanwhile, the enemy camp is left relatively defenseless, and i send in my own archmages to finish off my cpu adversary.  i employ this tactic often, especially against CPU ultras on a big map. 

Sometimes, when I really want a legendary archmage, I will summon a lot of daemons and slaughter them with the archmage. Another useful unit is the drake rider. At first they're not that good, but when they become "master" drake riders, they have so much defense and are useful in the battle field.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Me too!

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #112 on: 4 July 2009, 03:24:35 »
Quote
Not having to harvest gold

I never said he didn't have to harvest gold, every time i watch him play he's got workers picking away at the gold in the rocks.



How exactly would you consider pausing cheating?
Using it isn't cheating, the computer does orders every second, switching through all it's algorithms in a split second, picking ways to react to attacks and whatever else it may face.
If someone hasn't noticed humans don't think like that. When your playing Glest do you stop and think about unique strategies, or do you attack them head on, and regularly defend yourself, and blunder to victory.
You can't cheat when your playing against a computer, cause computers have the advantage anyway, they can think/react instantly.  If all you can do is stop time, look, think, issue orders(that don't get carried out until you unpause), and do things while unpaused.
What kind of advantage is that?

Besides, it makes up for the fact that you're one person. You create a medieval town/city in Glest, just like they would've in medieval times, except there's one big difference. In Glest you're the one person controlling everything, in medieval times they had a lot of people taking care of things, so pausing is just giving you time to think/plan(where the computer does all this instantly), and be all those people at once.

Besides it allows you to take on more enemies and for my Dad, have more fun.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #113 on: 4 July 2009, 05:49:57 »
It's not the pausing that's 'cheating', its the infinite gold. Regardless of how you put it, Mark is right on just about everything in that post of his.

As he said, sugar coat it all you want, your dad's a cheater, and unless he abandons all modifications EXCEPT pause enabled, he will always be a cheater. Sure he may prefer that, and there is a LOT of people who enjoy cheating out there, but don't deny he is one.

FOR THE LAST TIME, MAGITECH IS 100% BALANCED!!! IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM BALANCED BECAUSE LIKE IT OR NOT, THE CPU SUCKS! It's the same way the hero always wins in games, despite challenging gods and vast armies that should have been unstoppable. THe AI is not meant to be invincible. Of course, in glest, that's mainly because the AI is hard to do with all the mods available, and the fact that AI programming is some of the hardest there is. Don't ever blame balance on the units. Blame it on the AI. Now go run off and play a multiplayer game (if you can, I've tried 5 times today, and nobody ever wants to play [do you?]).
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

hailstone

  • GAE Team
  • Battle Machine
  • ********
  • Posts: 1,568
    • View Profile
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #114 on: 4 July 2009, 08:00:34 »
I disagree. I don't think modifications to the game make you a cheater. I think it only makes you a cheater when the game is 'expected' to be a certain way such as in a competition. If you are playing by yourself against AI (or have agreed on the rules with other players) then the game is what you want to make it.
Glest Advanced Engine - Admin/Programmer
https://sourceforge.net/projects/glestae/

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #115 on: 4 July 2009, 16:23:57 »
Omega, how exactly is unlimited gold cheating?
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

modman

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #116 on: 5 July 2009, 00:35:52 »
It means you never have to look for alternate resource places, and then make a new base somewhere else.  That act is when the player is most vulnerable in the game, because a lot of workers will come along, and military is split between the old base and guarding the workers.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #117 on: 8 July 2009, 00:50:43 »
Well, we didn't do it to stop that from happening, we did it so we could have a longer game
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

ElimiNator

  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,391
  • The MegaGlest Moder.
    • View Profile
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #118 on: 8 July 2009, 01:11:29 »
What I say is make a big  map and add more gold.
And I found out a way so you can make a unit that can trade your wood, (or stone,) for gold.( I have it in my crusader tech. )
Get the Vbros': Packs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5!

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #119 on: 8 July 2009, 02:55:36 »
cool, but this is getting way too off topic
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #120 on: 11 July 2009, 10:31:54 »
This has been offtopic for the last hundred or so posts!

The original question has been solved: no, they are exactly balanced among humans.

Archmage, you can classify yourself as whatever, and others can classify you as whatever (free speach, unless you live in IRAN)

We do not need to make a tech 2 or magic 2. I strongly suggest looking at the Four Path Magitech board, and thinking about giving a hand to THAT.

Now, seeing everything is solved, what are we still posting here for?!?



Sorry if this all sounds a little aggresive, I think this has been going on for just a little too long.

No sense arguing about balance either, as someone, somewhere, will show you how you were wrong. Everytime.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

modman

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #121 on: 14 July 2009, 01:13:41 »
Really?  How about disproving me?  I made a long post here a while ago, and nobody seemed to make an intelligent response to it...

I hope you realize that increasing the Initiate's attack any more will reciprocate in unwanted ways.  The foremost is that the AI will classify them more as "warriors" (that's what they're called in the source) and thus send them in to attack your town.  You will destroy them, and then they have a lack of workers.

This creates a devastating effect of crippling Magic for it has less Initiates to help to recover with.  By the time, or before, Magic recovers from its "mistake" Tech will most definitely have Horseman, and it is not uncommon for Magic to be destroyed at this point.

Another problem is that even if they are not attacked immediately, they have little Infantry, whereas an uninjured Tech will easily have the Technodrome and possibly also an Aerodrome within less than five minutes from that point.  It is obvious that an Airship can easily take a couple Summoners, or also a couple Drakes out.  Thus while Magic is possibly at max halfway through with the Archmage Tower, and Tech has gotten to the end of itself.

My farcaster chamber could help to alleviate this problem because it would take a quarter of the time to build than an Archmage Tower, and it could produce military to help defend.

Magic also needs a building like a Barracks that can be build immediately after the Summoner's Guild is completed.  This could create military at a critical point in the game for Magic.
Another reason Magic would seem weaker is that CPU Tech always beats CPU Magic, as well as with Ultras. (but a Magic CPU Ultra could of course beat a CPU Tech!)

The reasoning for this is that the AI doesn't know how to handle the Magic-like tech tree.  The summoner thing is too wierd to an AI, so they build way more than they need, and they make Demons even in the late game (same with Tech and Swordman) and they're always all over the map, usually uselessly producing Demons.

The other thing is the Initiate ->Battlemage ->Archmage thing/promotion path.  They never know when they're supposed to promote!  They're promoting with resources in their posession too.

Magitech would be way more balanced if the AI knew what they were doing with Magic!

BTW I have no doubt you would beat me, Platyhelminth.  Tech starts to get strong units (namely the Horseman) considerably before Magic can.  You may say the Drake Rider is as good as the Horseman, but the Horseman could easily beat the Drake Rider.  For one, the Horseman has a piercing attack, very good against an organically-armored Drake Rider.  Also the Drakes take longer to get, once you have the requirements for both factions, since you need to make a Summoner first.  Then the rest of Magic's strong units for a CPU take at least five minutes longer, because you have to have an Archmage Tower.  But I could try and build that right away after the Library, but you could build the Technodrome slightly after you can get Horseman, and you'll get to the end of your tech tree about 3 or 4 minutes before me.  No contest.  I could try and hope that I could make up for lost time while you're leading your attack by summoning Dragons to defend with, but you'd probably have about 15 Archers and too many Ornithopters because they have a splash.  Let's keep in mind that Dragons aren't quick to summon and cost 350 gold each...Now you see why Magic can be hopeless playing against Tech who knows what theyre doing.
« Last Edit: 14 July 2009, 01:17:22 by modman »

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #122 on: 14 July 2009, 04:28:40 »
You Stuborn!  :P :P :P

For the first post, the initiate problem is not a magic problem, but a AI problem. The lack of a 'barracks' unit is what makes magic an EXPERT faction. It makes it harder to use, but it's still easy to win if you know how and what you're doing.

For your second post, you are yet again complaining not about magics faults, but the AI's faults. In my opinion, the CPU seems to use the initiate > battlemage > archmage morphing quite fine, since I see all of these units during an attack.

Now, as you can see, the AI is the problem, and not neccessarily magically based. The AI should be improved so that they (1) attack in groups, letting slower unit catch up before moving (2) if a unit can harvest for resources and attack, it the former will prevail UNLESS the unit is being attacked, in which case they should attack back (3) if a unit is being attacked by a foe outside their site, they should run towards that unit (4) if an attacking unit can be produced by morphing a harvesting unit, a higher priority for producing this unit should take place (5) if a unit can produce multiple units, where one is more powerful than the other, the more powerful unit is produced more times (how many more times depends on resource cost and how much stronger their attack is).

While not all of the above will help magic, it will help the AI in general.

Now, you asked if magic is equal to tech, the answer is yes, it is, but the computer is not very skilled with magic. The faction itself is perfectly fine, but the cpu isn't the brightest. Then again, its a friggin' computer. COMPUTERS ARE UNIVERSALLY STUPID. WHo made computers? Man. Who coded this chunk of metal (and silcone, and plastic, and fifty other materials)? Man. Man is universally smarter than a computer, and balance should never be compared by how a computer fares against man.

Lets take a look at an example. In video games, I've taken a party of three characters with 9999 HP against a monster with ~50 million HP (for those who recognize this, this is the famed Yiazmat fight from FFXII, which can take as long as eight hours) and win. This beast can have a spell to kill any one of those party members in one hit, and can take them down in just a couple hits with melee. So how do these three people beat this abnomation? Simple, brains.

Ever notice how in video games, we can go through thousands of monsters with one guy and still win? Yet in a multiplayer game, you go against a human, you will need hardcore skills to last long. Human superiorty.

CPU vs HUMAN... The human will always win, except by human error, stupidity, and lack of knowledge. The human CAN always win against the CPU if they have the skill. Computers don't learn from their mistakes. There is few games where CPU can adapt to players behavior, and its still very rough, since computers are predictable, humans are not.

-- Sorry for ranting about that there. I just see no need to compare things when they are controlled by two entirely different divisions. Instead, ask yourself: if I was controlling both of them, who would win? Would it be close?
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

modman

  • Guest
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #123 on: 14 July 2009, 18:23:02 »
I don't know, but thanks for replying.  Have any two expert players played each other, one being Magic and the other Tech?  That might clear it up more, but I still think Tech would win more often than not.

ElimiNator

  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,391
  • The MegaGlest Moder.
    • View Profile
Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #124 on: 14 July 2009, 18:57:41 »
I still think Tech would win more often than not.
Yes I agree.
Get the Vbros': Packs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5!

 

anything