Author Topic: tech stronger than magic?  (Read 62929 times)

BrainDamaged

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« Reply #25 on: 16 June 2008, 15:10:24 »
hi
i think with magic tech its a bit dificult.

my tactic with magic:
-build 2 initiates
-2 go mine gold
-1 build a energy source
-1 build summoners guild
-1 go mine stone
-build again some initiates
-get min. 5 initiates to mine gold
-build library (and maybe some battlemages ( i dont build daemons at all. they suck^^))
-build summoners
-then library finished > maaaaany drake riders and some battlemages
-attack!^^
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by BrainDamaged »

Jamesgamer

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« Reply #26 on: 23 June 2008, 00:01:42 »
Magic's problem: while tech has no worries finding wood, magic can run out of stone quickly if one takes the stone route (lots of golumns.)
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by Jamesgamer »

Omega

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« Reply #27 on: 1 July 2008, 13:34:30 »
The reason that magic seems stronger is because it takes longer to get into producing powerful units. Dragons aren't bad, but they'll fall fast to an army of archers...
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by omega »
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Platyhelminth

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« Reply #28 on: 11 July 2008, 06:26:07 »
I think one of the biggest problem in magic it is that archimages do friendly fire very easily . I succeed to win in multiplayer vs a guy who used lot of archmages. I killed more than 20 archmages with few horses (due to the fact that archimage kill themselves) .

  Archmage should have intelligent attack. They should not attack if the ennemy is to close of you own units.
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by Platyhelminth »

Omega

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« Reply #29 on: 30 July 2008, 14:50:15 »
Personally, magic seems more powerful for me, because they hit harder and from the distance. They seem weaker because they have trouble hitting moving targets. But this all adds up to them being equal. The more skill you have with the faction though, the better you'll get.

As many may (or may not) know, I am making an Ancient Tech tree, now at 4 factions, it is very balanced, and I've yet to lose. For example, some unique upgrades is the Omega's Rebellion Upgrade, which allows the Rebel (which is simular to the worker) and allows them too attack. They are far from the best, but it allows them to have attacks equal to just below the swordman, and they spawn fast and cheap. It also gives them access to a all or nothing attack which can deal anywhere from 0 to 1000 damage (one time use per 5 min) All hp is much higher than tech and magic, but it also has higher attacks.

How  did it get balanced easily? A mix of types. All factions have a few mages, melee units, and air units. So they are balanced on that front, so no power boost is required to equalize the factions! :D
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by omega »
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verarticus

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« Reply #30 on: 30 July 2008, 15:09:06 »
heres a good defencive stratagy put a golem where you need some defence then have him hold position then put 2-4 battlemages behind him and have them hold potion and that can hold all but the biggest attacks unless its archers but when the golem goes anchent there not a problem anymore.
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by verarticus »

rishenchen

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« Reply #31 on: 3 August 2008, 03:55:04 »
Quote from: "Platyhelminth"
I think one of the biggest problem in magic it is that archimages do friendly fire very easily . I succeed to win in multiplayer vs a guy who used lot of archmages. I killed more than 20 archmages with few horses (due to the fact that archimage kill themselves) .

  Archmage should have intelligent attack. They should not attack if the ennemy is to close of you own units.


Explaination:
archmages should remain as they are,and for those of you who thinks tech is stronger or magic is stronger, i am telling you they are completely equal. Tech only SEEMS stronger because most of you are used to playing real-time strategy games where you build the building, and create the unit. When you upgrade the building, the units automatically upgrade. Tech is only slightly different from that, you need to chose the swordsmen upgrade into the guard. And all the battle units come from the other buildings different from the building you start with. Magic only seems harder because it's not like most factions you use in other game. Majority of the magic's massive damage battle units come from the main base, they upgrade from your peasants, which i am betting most people are not use to. In most real-time strategy, peasants are just miners, but glest is unique, the magic faction's peasants are it's main army, the daemons are just damage takers for ghost armors while ghost armors are just damage takers for battlemages and archmages. battlemages and archmages are the attack force, the ghost armors are the defence force. You need to micromanage so only the ghost armors take damage and the mages attack. As for the archmages splash damage, let a few ghost armors stand in front so fast units like knights cant get to them than blast away with archmages till their energy blasts clean, then just send all your remaining ghost armors and battlemages  up to wipe out the remaining enemy forces.

Magic Guide:

In the start, send 2 initiates to get gold and 1 to make a Energy Source. While the 1 makes an Energy source, use the main base to make another initiate, keep making initiates till you have 13, once the 1 building the energy source is done, send it to mine stone, send all the ones from the main base to mine gold till there is 1 mining stone and 5 mining gold. now you have to send 1 gold miner to build a summoner's guild near the trees. soon as the summoner's guild is done, send the initiate that was building it to cut trees that are right by the guild, then upgrade to ghost armor, DO NOT MAKE ANY SUMMONERS YET, when ghost armor is upgraded, use your 1 summoner to make ghost armors right away. send 5 more initiates to mine gold and 2 more to mine stone. By now you should have 9 gold miners and 3 stone miners and 1 woodcutter. 1 woodcutter is all you need unless you want to mass produce behemoths, i wouldn't advice on it, too expensive and even though it has a lot more hp, it doesn't take much more damage than ghost armors because it's armor is too weak. Don't ever stop making initiates, turn 3 of the newly made initiates into battlemages and send the rest that is made to mine gold. when the enemy attacks, send 1/3 of your ghost armors to slow them down while you make all your gold miners, but 9 of them into battle mages, after they become battlemages, send all battlemages and ghost armors to wipe the enemy army out.......the rest is up to you, I would't make dragons or behemoths though, both are too expensive and weak in armor while not that strong in attack, I'd definetly make archmages, separate archmages into 2 teams, 1st team with a few ghost armors and daemon to kill knights and the 2nd team with a few ghost armors and battlemages, use ghost armors and battlemages to kill the guards and swordsmen while your 2nd team archmages sneak by the side and use the firebolt attack to wipe out all the achers....
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by rishenchen »

rishenchen

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« Reply #32 on: 3 August 2008, 04:02:15 »
Quote from: "omega"
Personally, magic seems more powerful for me, because they hit harder and from the distance. They seem weaker because they have trouble hitting moving targets. But this all adds up to them being equal. The more skill you have with the faction though, the better you'll get.

As many may (or may not) know, I am making an Ancient Tech tree, now at 4 factions, it is very balanced, and I've yet to lose. For example, some unique upgrades is the Omega's Rebellion Upgrade, which allows the Rebel (which is simular to the worker) and allows them too attack. They are far from the best, but it allows them to have attacks equal to just below the swordman, and they spawn fast and cheap. It also gives them access to a all or nothing attack which can deal anywhere from 0 to 1000 damage (one time use per 5 min) All hp is much higher than tech and magic, but it also has higher attacks.

How  did it get balanced easily? A mix of types. All factions have a few mages, melee units, and air units. So they are balanced on that front, so no power boost is required to equalize the factions! :D


That doesn't seem fair at all, not even close, a few lucky rebels could take down the enemy bases in a flash, they wouldn't even know what happened and all the bases would be gone, 0-1000 damage per 5 minute? The game would all be about luck rather than skill...and anyways, if rebels could attack at all, they should be close to the attack points of initiates seeing as how they are the basic units like initiates, otherwise in an 1 vs 1, they would be too strong, because you can just send all your rebels and your army for a final attack which should have a 90% of wiping your enemy out seeing as how you have about 20 more battle units because of your rebels.
« Last Edit: 1 January 1970, 00:00:00 by rishenchen »

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #33 on: 27 September 2008, 16:45:51 »
Magic is weak in the beginning, but one you get archmages and dragons, you can easily beat Tech.

Platyhelminth

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #34 on: 8 October 2008, 14:45:15 »
I invite every body who think that magic is stronger that tech in big maps (yes in small maps magic morphs all his workers to battlemages and rush at early begin) to defy me in irc://irc.freenode.net/glest ( I come some time in irc ) .

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #35 on: 2 December 2008, 02:50:17 »
Another reason Magic would seem weaker is that CPU Tech always beats CPU Magic, as well as with Ultras. (but a Magic CPU Ultra could of course beat a CPU Tech!)

The reasoning for this is that the AI doesn't know how to handle the Magic-like tech tree.  The summoner thing is too wierd to an AI, so they build way more than they need, and they make Demons even in the late game (same with Tech and Swordman) and they're always all over the map, usually uselessly producing Demons.

The other thing is the Initiate ->Battlemage ->Archmage thing/promotion path.  They never know when they're supposed to promote!  They're promoting with resources in their posession too.

Magitech would be way more balanced if the AI knew what they were doing with Magic!

BTW I have no doubt you would beat me, Platyhelminth.  Tech starts to get strong units (namely the Horseman) considerably before Magic can.  You may say the Drake Rider is as good as the Horseman, but the Horseman could easily beat the Drake Rider.  For one, the Horseman has a piercing attack, very good against an organically-armored Drake Rider.  Also the Drakes take longer to get, once you have the requirements for both factions, since you need to make a Summoner first.  Then the rest of Magic's strong units for a CPU take at least five minutes longer, because you have to have an Archmage Tower.  But I could try and build that right away after the Library, but you could build the Technodrome slightly after you can get Horseman, and you'll get to the end of your tech tree about 3 or 4 minutes before me.  No contest.  I could try and hope that I could make up for lost time while you're leading your attack by summoning Dragons to defend with, but you'd probably have about 15 Archers and too many Ornithopters because they have a splash.  Let's keep in mind that Dragons aren't quick to summon and cost 350 gold each...Now you see why Magic can be hopeless playing against Tech who knows what theyre doing.

Omega

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Re:
« Reply #36 on: 10 December 2008, 15:49:18 »
OT:
Quote from: "rishenchen"
That doesn't seem fair at all, not even close, a few lucky rebels could take down the enemy bases in a flash, they wouldn't even know what happened and all the bases would be gone, 0-1000 damage per 5 minute? The game would all be about luck rather than skill...
I beta tested it and sent an army of 32 rebels at the foe. The rebels were wiped so bad...
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modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #37 on: 14 December 2008, 23:00:20 »
I think the rebels would be more or a defensive type thing--and a CPU would probably never know how to use them.

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #38 on: 14 December 2008, 23:02:52 »
Oh yes-- see this.  It explains why Magic is weaker.

verarticus

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #39 on: 15 December 2008, 03:47:47 »
Quote from: "modman"
I think the rebels would be more or a defensive type thing--and a CPU would probably never know how to use them.

ya if they are the workers too dong give them an attack or 3 out of 5 times they will all die out but the castle and stuff will still be there. (happens in magic too sumtimes)

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #40 on: 17 December 2008, 02:20:58 »
That's another problem.  The AI needs to be instructed not to send out all its Initiates until they are within a range of sight.  Otherwise it's rediculous; no wonder Tech gets so much more done because they don't stop working for every Daemon or something that comes to their town.

TheDestroyer

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #41 on: 23 December 2008, 04:05:15 »
I personally prefer magic simply because it has some heavy hitting. My method (with original latest version of glest, unmodified):

-Game Start-
1 initiate build summoners building then library then archmage tower
2 initiates mine gold
spend as much gold as possible on initiates
get 7-10 initiates mining gold, 2 on stone, 1 on wood, 1 making a bunch of power pools
by now the library should be done, archmage almost done
promote any extra initiates (not in use) to battlemage (you should have 5-7 to promote)
archmage tower finishes
keep making initiates
whenever an initiate comes out upgrade it to battlemage
once you have 15-20 battle mages stop making initiates
upgrade battle mages to arch mages
resume making more archmages in the bunch-of-initiates>bunch-of-battlemages->bunch of archmages
send the first 15-20 arch mages to attack the enemy with the FIRE ATTACK when the enemy is at range, ICE-LIKE ATTACK when the enemy gets close
by now the enemy should be scattered and you're probably down to 5-7 expert/master arch mages. congrats, you now are virtually unbeatable as long as you kept those other archmages building.
-Game end-

oh, and for the first wave, make some battlemages to stop it.

verarticus

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #42 on: 25 December 2008, 06:23:13 »
Quote from: "TheDestroyer"
I personally prefer magic simply because it has some heavy hitting. My method (with original latest version of glest, unmodified):

-Game Start-
1 initiate build summoners building then library then archmage tower
2 initiates mine gold
spend as much gold as possible on initiates
get 7-10 initiates mining gold, 2 on stone, 1 on wood, 1 making a bunch of power pools
by now the library should be done, archmage almost done
promote any extra initiates (not in use) to battlemage (you should have 5-7 to promote)
archmage tower finishes
keep making initiates
whenever an initiate comes out upgrade it to battlemage
once you have 15-20 battle mages stop making initiates
upgrade battle mages to arch mages
resume making more archmages in the bunch-of-initiates>bunch-of-battlemages->bunch of archmages
send the first 15-20 arch mages to attack the enemy with the FIRE ATTACK when the enemy is at range, ICE-LIKE ATTACK when the enemy gets close
by now the enemy should be scattered and you're probably down to 5-7 expert/master arch mages. congrats, you now are virtually unbeatable as long as you kept those other archmages building.
-Game end-

oh, and for the first wave, make some battlemages to stop it.

 4 problems.
1.that makes the game repetative and possibly not work much.
2.Your just spamming guys with no tacticle possiblilitys.
3.Wheres the fun?
4.What would be the point of the other units that where made,programmed,etc?

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #43 on: 26 December 2008, 01:32:12 »
This topic is definately not about gameplay (tell me if I'm wrong), but about possible reasons why Magic is weaker.  And people probably don't need to know your game strategies because Glest isn't that hard if you know some tricks and know the tech trees.

battle machine man

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #44 on: 8 February 2009, 01:11:39 »
depends you play 4 1 year their balanced if not u try to attack gard with a sommener lol

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #45 on: 8 February 2009, 01:36:14 »
I agree about the first one.  It's really easy to think they are balanced, but mathematically, Magic is weaker.  Strategies may help, but I guarantee I could beat you with Tech.

battle machine man

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #46 on: 8 February 2009, 01:51:46 »
I agree about the first one.  It's really easy to think they are balanced, but mathematically, Magic is weaker.  Strategies may help, but I guarantee I could beat you with Tech.
well a general once said experance is the best unit in a rts no, that was some amazing player in CNC lol rly a idoit with 200 battle machines cant beat a person with 20 yrs of expereance and 80 mages lol and i didnt say I WAS GOOD! i suck!

modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #47 on: 9 February 2009, 02:49:57 »
I'm going to have to question you on that one.  It would be a second Holocaust (or third, if you count the Black Holocaust).

Omega

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #48 on: 12 February 2009, 17:51:54 »
Let me repeat:
HOW TO BALANCE MAGIC:
-Add a fast producable unit (no morph)
-Allow energy source to produce more energy
-Increase initiate's attack to match workers
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modman

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Re: tech stronger than magic?
« Reply #49 on: 13 February 2009, 02:34:34 »
I hope you realize that increasing the Initiate's attack any more will recipricate in unwanted ways.  The foremost is that the AI will classify them more as "warriors" (that's what they're called in the source) and thus send them in to attack your town.  You will destroy them, and then they have a lack of workers.

This creates a devastating effect of crippling Magic for it has less Initiates to help to recover with.  By the time, or before, Magic recovers from its "mistake" Tech will most definately have Horseman, and it is not uncommon for Magic to be destroyed at this point.

Another problem is that even if they are not attacked immediately, they have little Infantry, whereas an uninjured Tech will easily have the Technodrome and possibly also an Aerodrome within less than five minutes from that point.  It is obvious that an Airship can easily take a couple Summoners, or also a couple Drakes out.  Thus while Magic is possibly at max halfway through with the Archmage Tower, and Tech has gotten to the end of itself.

My farcaster chamber could help to alieviate this problem because it would take a quarter of the time to build than an Archmage Tower, and it could produce military to help defend.

Magic also needs a building like a Barracks that can be build immediately after the Summoner's Guild is completed.  This could create military at a critical point in the game for Magic.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2009, 02:41:58 by modman »