Some thoughts about gameplay

[v.v.b.]

1. It's very hard to play Glest when you newbie. Let me explain. I've experience playing a lot of RTS -- Dune, Age of eEmpires, Warcraft-2,3, Starcraft...
 As you know, inspite of main idea -- "gather resources, build units, kill opponent" every game has it's own tech_tree, it's own units and buildings.
 BUT. When you only start to play in new game, you don't know noghting about it. And knowledge is coming to you step-by-step.
 What is happening when someone is trying to play Glest now? He is loading map "four rivers" (or something like that) and try to play.
 What does he see? Wow! Cows! And pigs! What are they for? Well, check it out later. What next? Some new peasants. OK. Builded... Player is only trying to figure out what is he to do next, and after several minutes there are dozen of computer soldiers are slaying his peasants and burning out his buildings...

 Well, right to the point.
 Right now Glest HAS NO some DEMO_MAP, on which someone can learn units, buildings and "engine mechanics". It's only question of time. And on existing maps THERE IS NO TIME. AI is coming and wipes all you forces...

 Right now I've finish downloading of glest_tools, and try to build my own map for me with MUCH pile of resources to me, and small to computer. Or may be just cut down computer from me someway (it's always easier to defense from flying forces when army of soldiers are slaughtering all your peasants)...

2. And somewhere here I've read about third race. Nature. I think it's a good idea. Some mixture of elves and/or elementals, dendroids, sprites, pixies...
 Is anybody work on campaign? Or (for the beginning) just on scenario?

3. sorry for bad english.

 Vadim V. Balashoff

PS. Cows and pigs. What are they for?

[Lordcowking]

Cows are my favorite. I don't think they are used for anything but in Warcraft they have things like rabbits and owls that you can use to go spy on the enemy's base with. That way you are not sending out fighting units to in turn kill them.

[RV-007]

one thing for getting familiar with the controls:

try human (player) as the only player in a certain map.

from there, you will have the chance to know your surroundings and faction.

 

[martiño]

1. It's very hard to play Glest when you newbie. Let me explain. I've experience playing a lot of RTS -- Dune, Age of eEmpires, Warcraft-2,3, Starcraft...
 As you know, inspite of main idea -- "gather resources, build units, kill opponent" every game has it's own tech_tree, it's own units and buildings.
 BUT. When you only start to play in new game, you don't know noghting about it. And knowledge is coming to you step-by-step.
 What is happening when someone is trying to play Glest now? He is loading map "four rivers" (or something like that) and try to play.
 What does he see? Wow! Cows! And pigs! What are they for? Well, check it out later. What next? Some new peasants. OK. Builded... Player is only trying to figure out what is he to do next, and after several minutes there are dozen of computer soldiers are slaying his peasants and burning out his buildings...

 Well, right to the point.
 Right now Glest HAS NO some DEMO_MAP, on which someone can learn units, buildings and "engine mechanics". It's only question of time. And on existing maps THERE IS NO TIME. AI is coming and wipes all you forces...

 Right now I've finish downloading of glest_tools, and try to build my own map for me with MUCH pile of resources to me, and small to computer. Or may be just cut down computer from me someway (it's always easier to defense from flying forces when army of soldiers are slaughtering all your peasants)...

2. And somewhere here I've read about third race. Nature. I think it's a good idea. Some mixture of elves and/or elementals, dendroids, sprites, pixies...
 Is anybody work on campaign? Or (for the beginning) just on scenario?

3. sorry for bad english.

 Vadim V. Balashoff

PS. Cows and pigs. What are they for?

Download 2.1.0, it has some very easy scenarios to start playing with.
Martiño.

[rudravishnu]

cow and pig are energy source,just like houses in AOE.with out it you can't produce units...if all our cows get killed,then you will lose if you do not produce new cow or pig units

[RainCT]

cow and pig are energy source,just like houses in AOE.with out it you can't produce units

Food.

[v.v.b.]

After some hours of playing in Glest (2.0.0, under Linux) I have some thoughts about gameplay.
All of it is only my opinion, and nothing more.

01. Scroll map buttons (arrow buttons on keyboard). They are acting very strange. Sometimes are stucking and you have to press on them again to move.
02. Group assigning by Ctrl-n (where n is numbers 1, 2, and so on) is working well. But double pressing, say "1" NOT CENTERING screen on this group.
03. "Meet point" of building is not assigning by left mouse button. You have to press "meet button", then assign it. Why all these compications?
04. Queue of production in buildings is not showing.
05. Key "A", which ALWAYS was ATTACK in almost all RTS games is NOT in Glest.
06. It's too dark. Especcially at night time. It's hard to play.
07. When I choose group (say "1"), it's ipossible to select one unit from it by clicking on icon in upper right conner. And I can't choose, say, all horsemans from group to fast kill running away unit.
08. Battle machine have two mode of attack -- by arrows and by hand-to-hand. When it's in group, and I give group ATTACK command, Battle machine is ALWAYS choose hand-to-hand mode of attack, and moving closely to point of attack. But more wisely will be if Battle Machine choose distance attack mode if target on a distance.
09. I can't choose point on mini-map where units has to go.
10. Technician "autoheal" and "autorepair" modes are missing. I have manually choose to heal and repair ALL of troups. And if there are dozens of them? It's very hard.
11. Interface buttons acting have one strange. This strange concerns all uints. I say on technician example. Select technician, press "Heal" button, then press "heal" button again. Unit will go to point under "heal" button.
12. Camera spinning bug. "A" and "D" keys is taboo under linux. 8-(
13. Where is classical "our base is under attack" and "our army is engage the enemy"? And on mini-map there is no signal which building or unit is attacking.
14. What is it -- "tech tree" in game settings menu?
15. Key "Esc" on keyboard always was abort of current action -- placing new building, choose new unit to attack and so on. But in Glest is abort of current game.
16. Golem is use all it's EP to move to some point, and when EP is ended, golem is stoping "forever". Even when its EP is enough to continue its moving, golem is still stand. So to move golem for a long distance I have to give sccording order dozens of time.
17. When resources are not enough for start building or summoning. Isn't it possible to say WHAT resources are not enough (Not enough FOOD... GOLD... WOOD)?
18. Key "Space" don't center on last message. Who is it say "Job's done"? And where was "upgrade complete"?
19. Where I choose to place new building, icon is ALWAYS same grey color. Even if it is impossible place to start build here. In *craft games there is easy to understand that I can't place building here by red color.
20. There is no icon "Free Initiate" or "free worker" as it is in *craft.
21. It's impossible to know how much resources are left, say, on pile of stones or gold. But it's very important information to play.
22. It's impossible to give order to tower whom should it attack exactly. It's not SEMIautomatic, but completely autmatical.
23. Pressing "Shift"-click on unit must exclude unit from group. Now I can only add units to group by pressing "Shift"-click.
24. It's hard to understand fast how many health points (HP, EP) are left. It's only numbers. 748/1800. Isn't it possible to show "progress bar" with numbers on it? It's more efficient and more "human-readed".
25. In Starcraft all upgrades are doing VERY SLOOOOOWLY. And it's good. It's complicate game. Makes it more... I don't know... more interesting.
26. Now units and buildings are very fragile. Units like demons are killed from one good hit, and buildings are ruined by four swordsman in a split of a seconds. Take a look at Age Of Empires. This game's building HP is MOST right. In AoE is HARD to take down building by swordsman. You must use trebuchet to ruine it down "fast". In Glest there are Catapults. What are they for? For destroy building? But swordsmans (or horsemans if you like) can do all the same almost with same efficient. Balance should be reviwed. Catapults must do more damage to buildings, units must have more HP, and... I hope you understand what I mean.
27. There is NO transport units at all! Do you planning that ALL maps will be land-passed? And mountains will ALWAYS have pass to get to opponent? And there is no "islands" maps, where you should first build great fleet, ruine down all towers, and only then transport your units to enemy territory?
27. When you can add to maps settings "victory conditions" (not only kill-them-all), but some like "get unit A to point B", "get N of gold", "survive in M minutes", one can make maps with these options. And it's a fitrst step to build campaign. Without it there is NO campaign at all. Without campaign there is NO GOOD game.

And one more "thought". I'm not sure that if it will be realized in Glest, it'll be good. But it's an idea anyway.
A friend of mine once says. Why all these games like Warcraft has only ONE horseman unit? In reallife on a horse can ride ALL humans -- priests, swordsman, wizards... It's more "ideologically right" to produce HORSES on stable. And put on them ANY of human units.

Vadim V. Balashoff

[v.v.b.]

I've not followed news of Glest for four months.

25. In Starcraft all upgrades are doing VERY SLOOOOOWLY. And it's good. It's complicate game. Makes it more... I don't know... more interesting.
26. Now units and buildings are very fragile. Units like demons are killed from one good hit, and buildings are ruined by four swordsman in a split of a seconds. Take a look at Age Of Empires. This game's building HP is MOST right. In AoE is HARD to take down building by swordsman. You must use trebuchet to ruine it down "fast". In Glest there are Catapults. What are they for? For destroy building? But swordsmans (or horsemans if you like) can do all the same almost with same efficient. Balance should be reviewed. Catapults must do more damage to buildings, units must have more HP, and... I hope you understand what I mean.

  Is the balance have reviewed? Or everybody is enjoy with current balance? Where units damage and HP are almost not significant?

[hailstone]

Nice List. I'd say most of those weren't fixed/added because of time constraints.

07. When I choose group (say "1"), it's ipossible to select one unit from it by clicking on icon in upper right conner.

I was working on this and almost got there but the actual clicking on the portrait stumped me.

Was looking at these others too:
04. Queue of production in buildings is not showing.
09. I can't choose point on mini-map where units has to go.
16. Golem is use all it's EP to move to some point, and when EP is ended, golem is stoping "forever". Even when its EP is enough to continue its moving, golem is still stand. So to move golem for a long distance I have to give sccording order dozens of time.
17. When resources are not enough for start building or summoning. Isn't it possible to say WHAT resources are not enough (Not enough FOOD... GOLD... WOOD)?

I'll try do as many as I can on the list but it might take a while.

14. What is it -- "tech tree" in game settings menu?

Its a group of factions, resources, etc. Like if someone was to make a complete mod they would want a new tech tree.

21. It's impossible to know how much resources are left, say, on pile of stones or gold. But it's very important information to play.

I think this is possible.

Why all these games like Warcraft has only ONE horseman unit?

I'd say this was the case because an extra model would be needed for each unit and that takes time.

[v.v.b.]

Nice List. I'd say most of those weren't fixed/added because of time constraints.

 Well, lets hope that someday...
 Almost all of my list are little remarks and small defects.
 But what about balance... It's a major one.
 So, it's no good if 3 footman ruin down the building in 5 seconds. One should use 3 catapults to crush down the house in equal time...
 So, here are my proposals:
 1. Each unit must have two different damage types: one for living things, second -- for building (footman will be good against units and bad against buildings, catapults -- vice versa).
 2. If you don't want the first way, well ok. But give to siege weapons huge additional damage against buildings.

 And in BOTH cases, HP of buildings ARE SHOULD BE INCREASED!
 It's not Command&Conquer3, where 3 mamonth tanks crush all base in 10 seconds... Man with a sword CAN NOT destroy it with equal speed!

[RainCT]

Each unit must have two different damage types: one for living things, second -- for building (footman will be good against units and bad against buildings, catapults -- vice versa).

Perhaps this can be done with armor types?

And in BOTH cases, HP of buildings ARE SHOULD BE INCREASED! It's not Command&Conquer3, where 3 mamonth tanks crush all base in 10 seconds... Man with a sword CAN NOT destroy it with equal speed!

I fully agree.

[v.v.b.]

Each unit must have two different damage types: one for living things, second -- for building (footman will be good against units and bad against buildings, catapults -- vice versa).

Perhaps this can be done with armor types?

 Well... it's possible, I think.
 But there must be a two different kinds of armor -- for "simple units" and for "siege weapons".
 And what about flying units? Which type are them?

[andyglest]

And in BOTH cases, HP of buildings ARE SHOULD BE INCREASED! It's not Command&Conquer3, where 3 mamonth tanks crush all base in 10 seconds... Man with a sword CAN NOT destroy it with equal speed!

WHO SAYS IT DOES?!?! don't you know that all units have different strength of attack? if you hover your cursor over attack button, under it you can get information about strength of attack.

and i don't think hp of buildings should be increased, if swordman have 700 hp, and building 6000.

SWORDMAN:

Code: [Select]

<max-hp value="700" regeneration="0"/>
...........................
<skill>
<type value="attack"/>
<name value="attack_skill"/>
<ep-cost value="0"/>
<speed value="100"/>
<anim-speed value="100"/>
<animation path="models/swordman_attacking.g3d"/>
<animation path="models/armored_swordman_attacking.g3d"/>
<sound enabled="true" start-time="0.47">
.............................
</sound>
<attack-strenght value="90"/>
<attack-var value="30"/>
<attack-range value="1"/>
<attack-type value="sword"/>
<attack-fields>
<field value="land"/>
</attack-fields>
<attack-start-time value="0"/>
<projectile value="false"/>
<splash value="false"/>
</skill>

CATAPULT:

Code: [Select]

<max-hp value="1500" regeneration="1"/>
........................
<skill>
<type value="attack"/>
<name value="attack_skill"/>
<ep-cost value="0"/>
<speed value="50"/>
<anim-speed value="50"/>
<animation path="models/catapult_attacking.g3d"/>
<sound enabled="true" start-time="0.1">
<sound-file path="sounds/catapult_attack1.wav"/>
<sound-file path="sounds/catapult_attack2.wav"/>
</sound>
<attack-strenght value="450"/>
<attack-var value="150"/>
<attack-range value="10"/>
<attack-type value="magic"/>
<attack-start-time value="0.7"/>
<attack-fields>
<field value="land"/>
</attack-fields>
<projectile value="true">
<particle value="true" path="particle_proj.xml"/>
<sound enabled="true">
<sound-file path="/sounds/catapult_hit1.wav"/>
<sound-file path="/sounds/catapult_hit2.wav"/>
</sound>
</projectile>
<splash value="true">
<radius value="2"/>
<damage-all value="true"/>
<particle value="true" path="particle_splash.xml"/>
</splash>
</skill>


ATTACK STRENGTH:
SWORDMAN: 90
CATAPULT: 450

HEALTH POINT:
SWORDMAN: 700
CATAPULT: 1500
BUILDING: about 6000

[v.v.b.]

ATTACK STRENGTH:
SWORDMAN: 90
CATAPULT: 450

HEALTH POINT:
SWORDMAN: 700
CATAPULT: 1500
BUILDING: about 6000

 Yes, I know all these numbers are "correctly correlate" with each other. But it's only NUMBERS. They do not take into account a question of TIME.
 Ok, just try to make an "experiment". Try to calculate time, which necessary to crush, say, blacksmith.
 Do it twice:
 1. with only catapult.
 2. with 3 swordsman.

 Then, just post your result here, please.

[@kukac@]

Code: [Select]

<?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>

<tech-tree>
<description value="experimental tech tree"/>
<attack-types>
<attack-type name="sword"/>
<attack-type name="arrow"/>
<attack-type name="magic"/>
</attack-types>
<armor-types>
<armor-type name="leather"/>
<armor-type name="plate"/>
<armor-type name="stone"/>
<armor-type name="wood"/>
<armor-type name="organic"/>
</armor-types>
<damage-multipliers>
<damage-multiplier attack="arrow" armor="plate" value="0.5"/>
<damage-multiplier attack="arrow" armor="leather" value="1.3"/>
<damage-multiplier attack="arrow" armor="stone" value="0.3"/>
<damage-multiplier attack="magic" armor="plate" value="0.8"/>
<damage-multiplier attack="magic" armor="stone" value="0.5"/>
<damage-multiplier attack="sword" armor="stone" value="0.5"/>
</damage-multipliers>
</tech-tree>

[v.v.b.]

Code: [Select]

<?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?>

<tech-tree>
<description value="experimental tech tree"/>
<attack-types>
<attack-type name="sword"/>
<attack-type name="arrow"/>
<attack-type name="magic"/>
</attack-types>
....
</tech-tree>

 
 Nice one "tech-tree".
 Is it installed to glevolution?
 Where can I download SVN (or any other) version to test it?

[andyglest]

there is more maths in this game than you think   attack strength - attack speed - attack type - armor type - armor strength - hp - regeneration

eh thats it - ATTACK SPEED! I JUST NOTICED! ATTACK SPEED IS ONE MORE THING THAT U NEED TO HAVE IN MIND WHILE TESTING CATAPULT - SWORDMAN

swordmans have faster attack

Code: [Select]

unit type:  ------------  timeline  -------------

 swordman:  swing - swing - swing - swing - swing
 catapult:  load throw  load throw  load throw
 
 swordman:  swing - swing - swing - swing - swing
 catapult:       throw       throw       throw

[andyglest]

:?:  :?:  ?

[@kukac@]

it was included in Glest 0.7.1

[andyglest]

actually it is more something like this:

Code: [Select]

swordman:  swing - swing - swing - swing - swing
 catapult:          throw           throw

catapult attack speed: 50
swordman attack speed: 100

[v.v.b.]

catapult attack speed: 50
swordman attack speed: 100

 If I'm correct, 3 swordsman can do much more damage that one catapult at the equal period of time... 90*3units*2 (attack speed ratio, or 100/50) = 540
 And 540 is MORE than 450. If all these is correct... I don't know what to say...

 Anyway... If everybody around think that everything is just fine now with the balance in Glest, I don't know what am I doing here...

[andyglest]

sorry, v.v.b., i am bad at maths  

[dino]

Is it installed to glevolution?
 Where can I download SVN (or any other) version to test it?

https://glevolution.svn.sourceforge.net ... levolution

[djezer]

I don't see any obvious conclusion to this thread, so I'm chimming in with my two cents.

I don't know that there should be two different attack strength one for buildings and one for units -- I think this is complicated for no real use.

I do agree that the hp for houses and other units should be revised. I've mention mages dying too fast in other threads too.

I think the best solution is to play around with your local files and see what gets you the best gameplay then share the results here.

With version two I used to change the units I started with and the str and hp for units which I thought were off. I didn't follow through up to a point where the game was balanced though.

Come to think of it, balance will always rise up through the development of Glest as new factions are added, new units to old factions too. So no matter how "right" we get it now, adjusments will keep coming no doubt.

[argento]

Hi all I'm new. My first experience was very similar to your v.v.b.

I have a similar rts background as v.v.b and I did the same list that you posted here in my mind.

I played a lot warcraft 3 and I will make some warcraft 3 glest comparison here. Maybe I did not understand Glest properly, but I really can't see how should I play it. Or Maybe I played too much warcraft and I can't really understand another gameplay.

Can someone explain me how the armor types in glest work?

In warcraft 3 every point of armor makes the enemy more difficult to kill as it has 6% more hp. So the time to the to kill an enemy with 100hp and 1 armor is the same to kill an enemy with 106 hp and no armor. The time to kill an enemy with 100hp and 20 armor is the same as an enemy with no armor and 220hp. But the armor itself reduces the damage for every attack, armor of 1 -5.66% dam, 2 -10.71% dam, 3 -15.25% dam. If you do the math you notice that those percentages influences the time to kill the enemies as explained (as if the units had 6% more hp per armor point)

In warcraft 3 for every armor type the different attack types do a different damage. For example pierce attacks do 35% damage to buildings and siege weapons 150% damage to buildings. Buildings have armor points too. For example a pierce attack to a building with fort armor 5 has a damage multiplier of (100 - 23.08 )/100 * 35/100 = 0.26922

23.08% is the reduction for an armor of 5, 35% for the piercing attack trying to destroy a building (that has fort armor).

In this way every unit has a counter unit, buildings are destroyed by siege weapons, unit with heavy armor (it's a type of armor that units with plate generally use) by magic and so forth.

The unit/counter unit is the base of the strategy of almost every rts. In Glest I can't see it (is it just me?).


I made some tests.
A warcraft 3 footman travels an entire screen in 6s at fast game speed (there are slow normal and fast game speeds, but despite the name fast is normally played), Glest units in comparison are very slow and to travel a screen an Initiate uses about 24s. This is the first thing that I noticed, it was a pain to see the units move so slowly. And the units size compared to the screen in Glest and warcraft 3 is almost the same.

Another thing that I tested is the time to kill some type of enemies.
In warcraft 3
1 Footman (not upped) kills 1 Footman (not upped) in 52s
In glest
1 Demon kills 1 Demon in 5s

In warcraft 3
1 Knight (not upped) destroys Town Hall (not upped) in 2:16
In glest
1 Behemoth destroys mage tower in 20s

So the glest unts are 2.5x times slower moving and 10x times as fast to kill the enemies compared to warcraft 3 (it's only a rough extimation). So it's almost impossible to micromanage units (they die very fast and move slowly).

Another thing that I did not understand is that I can make all the Initiates that I like and use them to mine gold (correct me if I'm wrong). So why should I do a secondary base? If I can just make more Initiates to mine more gold. In warcraft 3 there a limit of 5 workers in the gold mine. If I want more gold per second I need to build another base.

In warcraft 3 every player at some times can decide to build another base. This makes player scout to see if the enemy build other bases or not. And the battles are fought in the strategic points in the map (like bridges). It's vital to expand and to make the enemy not expand.

And the last thing, in warcraft 3 almost every unit has some special ability, some throws nets to entrap enemies, the heroes have all 4 abilities, others heal, others slow enemies, others buff your army, some can hide, others have splash damage, in Glest the units just do damage (just the archmage has splash damage). During the battles in warcraft 3 the most time I use special abilities.