Four Path Magitech

[tux-gamer]

@tux-gamer@ & @orion@, yea, I guess it's time to dig into saved games. I haven't examined the patches really closely for this yet, so I'll put that at the top of my list, especially since jrepan went to the trouble of emailing them to me.

yea, i will looking forward for this one.

thanks before and i'am sory if my english is bad.

[ZaggyDad]

I animated the divine blade wielder (except the moving animation) (I made a few changes to the mesh).

Blend:

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[url=http://www.mediafire.com/?lnn0hddv1ey]http://www.mediafire.com/?lnn0hddv1ey[/url]
Texture:

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[url=http://www.mediafire.com/?4bqydmxz4mt]http://www.mediafire.com/?4bqydmxz4mt[/url]
BTW, what icons would you like me to make?

~Zaggy

[wciow]

Very nice Zaggy  

The animation is nice but it needs to be split up so that each individual action (death,idle,attack) is a separate animation.  

For the buttons its pretty easy to make unit icons (just scale down a screenshot and paste it onto the background). The difficult part is making new command and building icons which fit in with the original Glest style. Feel free to make whichever buttons you want first.

[ZaggyDad]

New Necromancer tower icon:

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[img]http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/3/12/t_NecroTowerm_11a96c2.png[/img]
Update:

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[img]http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/3/12/t_NecroTower1m_6d9cbe4.png[/img]
Just a tiny change. I made the light overlap the tower.

Another update:

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[img]http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/3/12/t_NecroTower2m_59928d7.png[/img]
Another option for the Necromancer Tower icon:

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[img]http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/4/3/12/t_NecroTowerSm_cad49da.png[/img]
Graveyard:

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[img]http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/3/12/t_Graveyard1m_9c0feee.png[/img]
~Zaggy

[daniel.santos]

fricken awesome!

Sorry I haven't been active much on FPM lately, I've been working on the engine (saved games & such).

[Duke]

Ok, Daniel is busy with the engine, so I'll try to do something with the mod.

It appeared to me that there is no definitive techtree yet. More some ideas about what could be included.
So I'll start with that.

Here's a little diegram I made, because visualisations are usually better to understand. I made it out of my mind, so it probably differs from the current situation, but I think it's logical.

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[img]http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree.png[/img]Here the source:

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[url=http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree.svg]www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree.svg[/url]
I had the idea that subtrees could remove options as well as they could add new ones.
Now we have the tag <requires-subtree=>, but we could add one like >refuses-subtree=>
That way we could keep all the demons in the mainpath, but they won't disturb the natures path.
And it could be interesting to not choose a path at all.

As a balance I introduced some elementals on the other side.
The Clay Golem essentially is just a Demon with different model, though it may be a little stronger while the Demon is a little quicker or something.

The Air Elemental is a pure air to air unit, to make up for the loss of the soultower, while the Storm Elemental could get a ground attack in the form of lightning.

The natures path is nothing much yet, definately need more work.

So about the corruption:
at the beginning the necro can only summon one weaker sceleton, but that can be improved with the graveyard.
I thought the graveyard to be to simple for a fully fledged Lich, so I moved him to the Crypt. Since the Lich is realy powerfull, I thought it might  be good if not every Necro has the abbility to become Lich.
My prefered method would to kinda charge up the crypt when a necro dies and when it is charged enough, you can make a Lich.

Next are the techies.
@ wciow I already noticed something with the models, the monk is about one head taler then the others, but the Abby is even smaler than a technisian.

[daniel.santos]

dawg! that's cool  I"ll have to study this more later.

I do want the summoner to be able to summon some cheap scout units at the start however, so how about them being able to summon some lessor animation or something?  Can you figure a way to work that in where it can morph into something on either the nature or corruption side?  I had a few ideas, like the corruption side would end up with a scout/spy type unit that isn't too hot in combat and the nature side would end up with some type of scout/predator unit that is stronger than the daemon and can possibly morph a 2nd time into an advanced hunter/scout unit.  I just can't find a nice way to fit all of that into a flowing story line.

Oh, one more thing, I want the lingering spirits upgrade to effect the ghost armor because it fits in story-wise and it helps keep them from becoming obsolete, but I'm not completely happy with how I have it worked out now.  If you have any better ideas, I would like to know please.

As far as subtrees being able to remove options, that's in the engine now, you just have to specify what "subfactions" a given "producable" (that is, a command, unit, upgrade, etc.) is in.  In addition, it removes the icons from the UI, so it isn't cluttered with things that don't effect the subtree you are in.

So what do you have in mind for the dreadnaught?  Heavy armor and more damage maybe?  Or perhaps heavy armor and the same damage, just add some special ability (spell, effect, etc.)

As far as Dragons being summoned by drake riders, I think that the essential idea of the drake rider is you give up the ability to summon and become an actual fighter unit, as opposed to a shoddy fighter unit who can summon cool shit.

I like the idea of having elementals on the nature side, I just want to make sure we embrace elvish-type motifs as well, like the sprite, druid, etc.  This is the reason I was thinking of going with some type of forest dwelling unit that the summoner's lower-level (daemon replacement) can morph into.  This was the unit that I wanted to be able to walk through tress and use a ranged attack.  Maybe a summoned kobold archer?  Something along those lines...

[wciow]

Nice ideas Duke.

I like the idea of air and storm elementals. Maybe they should be summoned by the druid via an upgrade in the entwined tower? The alchemy upgrade would be more suitable for the path of reason side I think (they could produce some kind of chemical weapons?).

The clay golem can just be a smaller weaker version of the current golem which requires an upgrade to make it into a stone golem.

I'm not quite sure what the Sapling unit is going to do? I would prefer if you had to build an entwined tower and then a grove similar to the necro tower -> graveyard in the path of corruption.

Your comments about the models are noted and I will change them so that they are sized a bit better.

Daniel, I have been thinking along the same lines for the extra nature unit. I would like to see something like a forest archer/ranger unit which can ambush from the trees.

Doing something to make ghost armour more useful is a good idea. ATM it is probably the most underused unit in the magic side!

I haven't posted anything for a few days but I am still working in the background. I am trying to build in some extra quality into the models while Daniel is busy improving the engine. The next two models will be the priestess for path of enlightenment and druid for path of nature.

[Duke]

Can you figure a way to work that in where it can morph into something on either the nature or corruption side?

Hmm, the concept is pretty clear, but it is difficult to find a being suitable for it. How about a bat? it could become Vampire Bat on one and a Giant Bat or something on the other.

Right now I'm not exactly sure what lingering spirits does.
I renamed the unit to ancient armor to get the necro out of it with the ghost and make it more neutral.
And I usually use more armor then demons, but I'm a new player and not sure if that is wise.

As far as subtrees being able to remove options, that's in the engine now...

I'm not quite sure that is the same as what I mean. I want the demons and the elementals to be present without actually choosing a subfaction, but being removed if you choose the other faction.
This means I want the elementals  to be available without the druid.
I just temporary called the upgrade alchemy because I didn't find a better name.

They dreadnaughts are realy strong demons, but the most intriguing is that they are usually depicted with wings. (Well At least if you find a pic of the Demon and not the Mecha) Because of that it will probably be more offensive then the behemoth.

I had the impression that the Drake rider is mostly a scout that comes to late in the tech tree to actually do scouting, so I wanted it like something of a Dragon Master. But the main point was actually that the drake should depend on dragon calling, since it is essentially a dragon too. So I'll probably leave the dragon with the summoner.
It leaves the Archmage tower pretty empty, I think some updates for the mages are needed.

I would prefer if you had to build an entwined tower and then a grove similar to the necro tower -> graveyard in the path of corruption.  

Well I tried to avoid making both faction too symetrical that's also one of the resons I introduced the Saproling.
It is somewhat of a young treant, but looking more like a green plant and meant as a worker to build the tower and grove in the forest, harvest wood and plant or morph into new trees. The Initiate could only work at the border of the forest.

Instead of or aditionally to the entwined tower we could have some elven treehome
I think about an elven Ranger that can call a wolf or a bear or both to aid.

[hailstone]

Has hero or leader units been included? I suggest having a starting hero (maybe you only get one at the start) then as you improve in technology or it gains more skill it automatically upgrades (changing the model and stats/skills). The upgrade would depend on the path that you chose.

[daniel.santos]

hailstone,
I've considered heros.  I think that is something that can be saved until the entire tree is flushed out more, but *always* as an optional.  This can create a *lot* of balancing issues, so I really don't even want to consider it at the moment (just kidding). Having "ghost armor" isn't necessarily a negative, but it's certainly more along the lines of the standard finger-waggler line of spells than nature magic.  It also raises the question of how they will be made more useful on the nature side, as they definitely need help on the corruption side.  One option is to transform them into "animated armor", which removes the aspect of exploiting some poor disturbed spirit who didn't move on into the next world and gives it more of a "bed knobs and broomsticks" aspect (very old Disney movie, very nice actually.)

Along those lines, I plan to implement a "resistance" factor in addition to armor.  This will allow a unit to dictate its specific resistances to various attacks and allow upgrades, effects, emanations, levels and such to modify those resistances.  The main reason I want this is because I want armored organic units to suffer the same from diseases as their non-armored counterparts, while being able to have armored ghosts or animations take next to no damage at all.

[daniel.santos]

Duke,
I forgot to mention that I'm suffering from a greater lack of inspiration when it comes to the tech side, so I look forward to your input quite a bit there.

So far, I like the basic idea of the paladins (mounted holy units),  crusaders and the monks.  Monks provide piety, which is required to create paladins or monks (like energy on the magic side).  Unfortunately, piety shows up before you have chosen that subfaction (subtree), so I have to fix that.  Anyway, monks heal very quickly and purge negative effects (at least, they eventually will if they don't already), but their ability to heal must recharge since it's mana-based.  Paladins can heal themselves, but it's slow and they don't have much mana or mana regeneration until you do the faith upgrade at the abbey.  I agree the abbey needs to be larger.  I also added  meditative calm around the abbey.

I decided that a straight gregorian-type motif won't serve us here, so I introduced the idea of the priestess.  So in this religion, monks are the healers, but the priestesses are the ones actually in charge.  They should be some type of offensive unit that does "miracles", like I was maybe thinking some kind of "wraith of the gods" type of thing.

But I can't come up with flying units and I thought to move all of the tech flying units to the path of reason side, although I'm not convinced that it's the right thing to do.  I also hadn't spent too much time on it, but I thought I should mention that.

As far as the path of reason, my main ideas were a university and later a military academy that can produce leaders, like a captain who promotes to a commander, colonel and then general who's leadership effects all fighting units around them.  I thought that the promotions can be a morph instead of kill levels and that the effectiveness would depend upon a tree of them, however that's set up, so that as you build your army, the integrity of the chain of command effects how your units fight.  Maybe something along the lines of sargent, captain, colonel and general, each with an increasing sphere of influence, but only influencing their those immediately below them or maybe two levels below them, but the 2nd level is effected less.  I dunno, just an idea there.

I also figured that they should get better defensive structures and a siege weapon of some sort, perhaps that can house other units.

[orion]

Since you guys are busy with the path of corruption, I'll work with the path of nature. I'll probably draw a diagram like Duke did. While i am working on the website, 1) making websites is fairly easy for me, 2) this sort of thing interests me.

[daniel.santos]

ok, I posted this in the GAE topic, but I want to copy the part on the FPM tree here as well. 

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[url=http://www.glest.org/glest_board/viewtopic.php?p=14730#14730]Here is the main post with links to download.[/url]  These changes to the FPM tech tree makes the magic/corruption and tech/enlightenment a bit more balanced, although the enlightenment tree is still not complete. Please give it a try and let me know what you think!!

Four Path Magitech v0.1.4 Changes

• BEWARE THE CRUSADER! The evangelical Crusaders are now highly offensive towards casters, causing mana drain and mild damage with their evangelization!  When used in large groups, they can completely immobilize a group of would-be spell casters.  Back them up with several monks as healers and they really hurt.
• Crusaders now also heal other units, although much slower than the monk.  Their armor and damage has been reduced and their damage type is changed to impact.
• Paladins are now a more heavily armored unit with slashing damage.  In case I didn't mention it earlier, they have an "inspire" emanation effect which increases the movement and attack speed of nearby friendly units.
• Reduced the damage multiplier for fire on wood from 1.5 to 1.25 and slightly trimmed back the base damage for fire attacks from the magic faction.

[Duke]

Happy Easter,
I've been thinking about these diagrams all week and  finally found the time to actually make them.
I hope I have considered everything you said and I'm actually rather content with this one:

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[img]http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree2.png[/img]Here the source:

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[url=http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree.svg]http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/magetree.svg[/url]
OK the changes:
Base Tree:
I introduced the Bat as an early cheap weak scouting unit. but can be upgraded as well as the Armor when choosing a subtree.
The Archmage Tower was a bit empty so I put another upgrade in, not sure what it will do, but it will surely improve the archmage.

The Dreadnaught will probably get wings and only be slightly stronger or even a little weaker than the behemoth. Maybe a special effect though.

Corruption:
Mainly changes in layout.
Added advanced Bat and Armor as well as Lingering Spirits.
I'm not sure if LS should be a requirement for the Ghost Armor or  enhance it further. But it could have an effect on the Soultower.

Nature:
Ok the first thing that happens is that the original Mage Tower morphs into an Entwined Tower.
Then I'm not sure. Depicted is the version where the Tower produces Druids which then are able to plant Saprolings. But it could be made that the Tower or initiates produce Saprolings and the Druid is made in the Grove.
The Sprite is some kind of fairy, probably just a plasma effect that is a Druids pet and helps her heal.
Refreshing Springs is an upgrade that increases healing abilitys.

Rampant Growth does what the name indicates it gives the Sapling the ability to rapidly grow into a defensive Treant.
One of this Treants can be further made into an Ancient Tree, which teaches Druids how to transform regular trees into some kind of offensive Treant.

So then there is a third element. The Rangers Lookout, which produces... Ranger (;
He is mainly an Archers that can call Beastlive to his aid when researched.
Those upgrades also improve the Ranger himself.
I though about giving him one pet without research maybe a falcon but that would be quite simmilar to the bat.

So I think thats all there is to say, hope you like it.

Once I wake up I'll work on the Tech faction.
@daniel I probably won't use that military chain of command, for the Path of Reason.
I'm rather thinking about something more techie, like alchemism and steam engines.
As flying unit for enlightenment would probybly serve only an Angel.

[daniel.santos]

Wow, great work!  I know it's a terrible place to start, but I want to start with what I don't like, LOL!

I don't like the bat.  I don't know why, it doesn't mean it wont grow on me, but I have yet to come up with a better early alternative.  But this is pretty dang freaking cool.

I'm for the Ranger.  The ranger departs from the idea of "brans vs. brawn", but I'm ok with that.  I've been considering changing the name of the tech tree altogether to something along the lines of "Four Paths" (although I don't like that particular name), diverging further from the original magitech concept.  The primary reason is the religious side having para-normal powers.  But the concept of starting out with a brains vs brawn and progressing into dark magic vs. natural magic and religion vs. science I think is very cool.  Thus, introducing a ranger, moves the natural magic one step away from pure finger-waggling and more towards what "tech" starts out as, where as religion does the same in the opposite direction.

I LOVE the way you are manging the ancient armor!  I just want to note that "Lingering Spirits" was originally (and is in the tree now) the upgrade that allowed morphing a necromancer into a Lich and required that you build a Graveyard.  I enhanced it so that it also improved the now "ghost armor" only to help keep that unit from becoming obsoleted.  The idea of the Lich is that they learn how to circumvent death, at some ghastly price that they won't ever admit to having had to pay (loosing their soul or something).  So the idea of the the upgrading being called "Lingering Spirits" is that they learn about remaining in this world after passing.  Right now, the LS upgrade isn't attached to anything.  What it if is what allows morphing an ancient armor into a ghost armor and also is required for the Lich in some way?

I like requiring the study of necromancy before being able to build a necromancer tower.  This elongates the process you have to go through before you can actually create necromancers.  Just remember that the Path of Nature and Path of Corruption are also upgrades themselves that are quite slow, so we don't want to have to make them wait too long.

What is "Intimidation"?  Would this be the same effect as "Shroud of Trepidation"?  If so, I actually think that it belongs where you have it, in the necromancer tower, rather than the graveyard where it is now.

I like the Graveyard-Crypt chain of progression and I agree that the Lich should be a little harder to obtain.  I'm not too crazy about your earlier idea of requiring that the crypt be charged by necromancers dying however.

I like having zombies researched at the graveyard, that makes much more sense.

You don't have corporal theft upgrade in your tech tree, this is the upgrade that allows zombies and skeletons to steal 8% of the damage done from each attack (it's automatic).  This upgrade may need balancing (it may be too weak right now), but I think it's a rather nice feature.  Is this the same as "Life Steal" or did you have something else in mind for that?  Another upgrade I don't see is the existing "preservation" upgrade, this is a pretty big one for the survivability of skeletons, zombies and liches.

On to the items being removed by choosing one path or the other, I like the basic idea, but how do you propose we deal with those units & upgrades if they have already been created/researched prior to the choice of one over the other?  Should they be taken away (i.e., the units immediately die or perhaps they slowly deteriorate) or should they be allowed to remain?  Either way, this does indeed open the door for developing out along a purely "magic in the middle" path as you mentioned before (i.e., not choosing a path).  Perhaps if you develop out some point without choosing a path that the option is lost to you?  Lots of good ideas here!

And then on the Stone Golem vs Tower of Souls, I agree that the Tower of Souls is a more "corrupt" concept and that the Stone Golem is a more natural concept, so I can't argue with this at all from a story line standpoint.  However, my main concern is with defense "structures" against air and land attacks.  I like that the Stone Golem is a fairly, but not completely stationary, heavy defense unit.  My original thought was to allow it to be transformed into some non-stationary, ground attacking unit on the corruption side in lieu of reason getting walls, bastions and better defense towers and nature getting their various defensive trees & treants.  Yet, somehow I like the tone of your setup more, as if the stone elementals refuse to follow the player down the corrupt path they have chosen.  Air and Storm Elementals may be sufficient to make up for the loss of the tower of souls, but we may still need some ground-defensive structure on the corruption side.

Also, do you think the morph from Behemoth to Dreadnought should be restricted to corruption only?  Since morphing the behemoth will result in a unit with a weaker defense and the behemoth is the corruption side's "tank", perhaps we can allow them to morph into two different units, the dreadnought and some type of armored behemoth?  As far as implementation, I want to keep things as balanced as possible while we progress, so with the corruption side being the most flushed out in the implementation, this will probably be one of the later things we'll need to worry about.

I have an idea for the Archamage Tower's "Energy Focus": reduce or eliminate splash damage to friendlies!  This would make the archmage a truly powerful unit.

[Duke]

I don't particularly like the bat either, it is noit very magical, but as you said alternbatives seem to be rare.

Ok I'm actually not all that familiar with the actual techtre, thus a few confusions with the names.

I also missed that Lingering spirits is required for the lich, just noticed the armor part.
How about this: LS is not required for Ghost Armor but improves it further, as well as the Soultower. (they all have to do with spirits).
Additionally if you forget this upgrade you can't make Liches either?

About the Necromany: I thought about includind the path in that upgrade.
The idea was that we don't say oh now we are on the dark side, lets build necromancers.. but rather you study the subject and this brings you on the path. Same with the entwined tower, although I'm not sure if you can put a subtree advancement into a morphing skill, can you?

The middle path would probably need some fleshing out if it should become a real option.
The oposed units should probably degenerate.

Generally I don't mind that nature is way more defensive and corruption more offensive, but I agree that corruption should get at least some defences. How about some skeleton constructs. They could be build by initiates and could have pretty much any shape. a simple boneheap as a wall, or something with a torso and arms sticking out.

I have an idea for the Archamage Tower's "Energy Focus": reduce or eliminate splash damage to friendlies!  This would make the archmage a truly powerful unit.

just perfect. Focussing the damage to where it is meant to go.

[Duke]

The tech side is actually pretty dificult.

here is for now the current status

there seems to be a bug in the actual tree, because sanctify doesn't work. The icon lightens up when you have all the requirements but nothing happens when you click it.
So some of the enlightenment is missing.

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[img]http://www.freewebtown.com/DK2112/Glest/techtree.png[/img]
As it actually is the tech faction to begin with the Reason side forms much of itself on it's own.

It looks more complex then the basic magic faction as well (the few white ones are eversything that is new) So we might not even have to much with it anyway.

Ok the main path will get an academy, this will get advanced architecture as well as the pathes and some means to teach the military. To develop this chain of command Daniel mentioned.
Although I have to be carefull with this, It has the potential to turn into a third tree.

Tech side will get a mechanic to upgrade the constructs with some iron. Maybe steam engines too.
Additionally I have thought about a university that will research some alchemy and medicine! I think it a bit strange that technician can "repair" humans. So some other means of healing would be required.

Enlightenment:
It probably needs a temple for the priestesses. They don't quite fit into an abbey filled with monks.
Otherwise it is still pretty empty, we have Crusaders, Paladins and probably Angels in the heavens above. Maybe Archangels as upgrade.
We could add some Knight between Horsemen and Paladin and a Templer as an alternative to the Paladin with different abbilitys.

[daniel.santos]

Wow! So much to respond to, sorry for my long replies

As far as Lingering Spirits, I concur.  I like that it upgrades both the ghost armor and the soul tower, that fits very well.  I definitely believe that it should be required for the Lich.  I guess I'm not too picky about the exact order that the requirements should go in.  In the current tech tree, you have to build the necromancer tower, graveyard, archmage tower and produce a necromancer before you have the option of researching Lingering Spirits, which actually allows you to morph the necromancer into a Lich, so there are a lot of hoops you have to go through already.  I'm not terribly opposed to adding yet another either.

Bone heap sounds awesome!!  So a fairly static structure that can whop the crap outta any ground units that comes near it?  And I like the initiates doing it, that gives them some part in all of this nastiness, since they are involved.  It also keeps them useful as more than just harvesters since they mostly loose their already limited ability for combat after Shroud of Trepidation takes most of their mana (I figured it's from the stress of the constant anxiety, that happens to make their asses work faster! )

gotta go, will post about tech a bit later.

[Duke]

I played a game with the cpu in my team to checkout the tech tree and I noticed that it didn't build a Lich, just a huge load of necros.

I'm thinking about letting people research necromancy and some basic nature knowledge. So you learn what it is about, and use some basics like the bat and amror upgrades. Afterwards you make the decission if you realy wont to follow one Path, by sacrificing the option for the other.

That gives the option to get some sort of entwined skeleton or some plant zombie for the middle path.

PS: I should give credit to Magic the Gathering (TMOA collectors card games) I get a lot of inspiration from it. And since I'm a black/green player its easyer to create the magic than the tech faction.

[daniel.santos]

I played a game with the cpu in my team to checkout the tech tree and I noticed that it didn't build a Lich, just a huge load of necros.

I've been in the AI some and improved how it uses the FPM tech tree, but I haven't done any exhaustive level of work with it yet.  My guess is that it hadn't got around to upgrading Lingering Spirits yet.  It has a certain number of rules that it processes before it finally gets to upgrades and building expansions.  I've tweaked that, but it still will only get so far each round before running out of resources.

Also, back to the problem you mentioned much earlier with the Sanctify upgrade not doing anything, you may want to try 0.1.9, since 2.0 represented a pretty big number of changes.  The more I think about it, the more I think that I should  backport my bug fixes to 0.1.9.

[Archmage]

I'm not sure if this idea was said, but i'll say it anyway - can you make it that units get stronger during diffrent times of the day? Night - night creatures get powerful Day - light units get stronger (adds stratigies)

[daniel.santos]

Archmage, that's an interesting idea, but for it to work, there would have to be an array of such adjustments across the 4 subfactions.  Wesnoth does this, but I can't say I'm exactly crazy about the idea.

What would be cool is different units had different levels of night vision (or day vision), nigher were darker, day were brighter and we had torches and such animated on the sides of buildings at night.  Again, not something I'm too worried about at this point, we have plenty to accomplish 1st I think that's more of greater need for a complete working mod.

[ZaggyDad]

I'm sort of stuck on what to make the rest of the icons like, and I might need help on most of them (especially the abbey). Anybody have any ideas?

~Zaggy

[daniel.santos]

For the abbey, the steeple/bell house.  If you look closely at it (zoom in and such) it's got this really cool bell tower! (yea wciow!!