Tech and Magic balance

[martiño]

Starting from version 0.8.0 Glest features two factions: Tech and Magic. We want them to be as balanced as possible, the purpose of this poll is to test the power of each one. Feel free also to post comments about individual units that you think they are too weak or strong.

[Mortiro]

Hi all!

Iv been testing Glest for quite a time now (from 0.3.2 or so) and was really surprised with this version.I was really exited when i saw the new graphic and the choice of 2 "races".

I tested both of them vs. the computer and I think that they are balanced.

I think that Mages have little problems at the beginning sometimes,but in the end they have a little advantage(Dragons) who can be countered by Archers though.

I really like the ideas of 2 "races" and in my opinion there could be even more (like Animals and Trees or...i dont know).

In my opinion there could be another feature though....I thought about heros(like in Warcraft 3).What do you think?

[Ph3lan]

I think that Mages have little problems at the beginning sometimes,but in the end they have a little advantage(Dragons) who can be countered by Archers though.

same here

but after you have some dragons its ok

btw: do you want to make some base defend for the magic??

[martiño]

Yes, Magic race doesn't have any defensive buildings but initiates can attack, so they are usefull for defense.

[Ph3lan]

hmm...yeah

a little idea: it would be nice then the energy buildings can heal units

[tucho]

The units of the magic faction regenerate their health, except the initiate and the daemon

[redder]

i can win with tech about 5 minutes. ok, if the cpu is ultra its 10 minutes.
with magic this was 7 minutes, and in ultra i gave up (f*ckin arrow tower . and i not an expert gamer!!
is it balanced?!

reasons:
-swordsman and archer are very cheap and their production speed are very high
-mage units are expensives and slow to produce
-mage units couldnt hit moving units
-tech's guardian tower is too strong (much stronger than the ALL initiates in the beginning)
-tech's castle nearer in the gold on the map called "four rivers" (this was my test map)


oooh, and i found a BUG: when the game is paused, the mage units can HEAL!

[martiño]

Hi redder, thanx for your comments.

- I've already fixed the bug. Thanx for reporting it.

- I think we will upgrade the initiate attack rate and HP to make it stronger, but we must be carefull because if not they could be used for attacking tech factions at the beggining of the game. We accept any suggestions here.

- Ranged units can't hit moving units if they attack slower than the units move. Since initiates attack very slowly they use to hit no enemy moving unit. Anyway, when a group of units moves ranged units usually hit some of them, although maybe not the unit they are targeting.

- Mage units also have shorter sight range (we will correct this for next version) so IA usually manages them not as efficiently as magic units.

- In any case I think that magic is stronger later, because of archmages and dragons. Battle Machines and catapults are big units and are difficult to manage in the battlefield.

[Wolfm@n]

Hey Martino, good game by the way. My post is purely for constructive critism. I'm going to be starting my own game soon, so I just like to see what others have done, it kind of encourages me to do it myself. Looks like alot of fun. I am a Warcraft3 player, so alot of my testing of your game comes from that angle. If I play as tech against magic in any of the small maps I can win in just under 3,5 minutes, and that only because I have to destroy all their buildings, I've technically won after 1,5 minutes (having killed all their workers and starting army). You need to try and combat the effect of a rush. If you race your starting tech army to the magics base you can take out all their units leaving just your archer alive, with all their workers gone, they are dead, with no money. Obviously if one does not rush, this no longer becomes as easy or possible. I have not played the game a great deal, but these are just the things I noticed first up. One other problem which I seem to encounter which I think is worth a mention. There must be someway you could improve unit selection when it comes to attacking. Often when I right click to attack a unit my units have no targeted it and therefore I have archers running right up to enemy units and being killed instead of attacking. Maybe a bigger selection area should be placed around units. Am I right in saying that u need to click on the feet of an enemy unit to attack it? It just seemed that often I felt I had clicked on a unit to attack it and infact I had just given a walk command. This comes from playing Warcraft3, and is purely my interpretation of how the game plays, it seems more difficult to order an attack a specific unit. Like I said before I have not played the game a great deal, so don't hold me to everything I say.
I just wanted to help you make a good game, BETTER!

Keep up the good work Martino, it's a working progress!
 
P.S. Greetings from South Africa

[martiño]

Thanx for your comments. It really seems that magic units have no good defense against rush. The problem is that if we increase the number of starting units for the magic faction they could rush tech factions. We should think on any other defensive mechanisms.

And good luck with your game.

[redder]

It really seems that magic units have no good defense against rush. The problem is that if we increase the number of starting units for the magic faction they could rush tech factions. We should think on any other defensive mechanisms.

i fixed this problem. i created a spell called "the guardian of the house". this summon a guardian spirit around all buildings (it will be an eye-candy too ) who shooting down the enemy. so all buildings become a defense tower, but MUCH weaker (the greater its HP, the smaller its damage). maybe this AND the initiates can break the rush.

idea#2: this spell add only regeneration to the buildings.

idea#3: initiates can enter the buildings (can attack but have more HP, because need to destroy the house first).

[Wolfm@n]

Thank you martin-o

Redder has some good ideas, you might want to consider one of his.

Or I was thinking, considering your magic initiates can attack, why not allow them to become "militia" as in Warcraft3 for human peasants. They could be sent to a specific building (maybe main building) where the could gain extra HP or armor just for a short duration so that they could actually prevent a rush. Note that they wouldn't be able to be used for a rush themselves because after having travelled the map to an enemy, by the time they get there they would turn back to normal initiates.

This is just a solution that I thought might work to prevent rush, plus it makes them a little more interesting. The effect of the extra HP or armor could wear off after a certain time, that would have to be carefully considered, bearing in mind you don't want the ability to be used to rush with, just to defend. It could be called an initiate "blessing" or something cool to keep with the theme and maybe you could give them an aura when the have it on. Like a blue mist or something above their heads.

Just a thought, sorry if I got carried away with typing. Game design is a really fun thing for me. Don't worry if you struggle to balance your game perfectly. Even the mighty Blizzard can't get their games perfect, they constantly release patches to fix multiplayer balance issues. But that's the price you pay for having such contrasting factions. It makes it more enjoyable and interesting though!

Happy coding
Wolfm@n

[skittles2009]

ranged units should have an upgrade at a building similar to the ballistics one in Age of Empires so that their accuracy is higher and rate of fire is higher,

also their should be upgrades to the archer and the battlemage

[enveloop]

I understand that what you changed are the xml files of the units and buildings; you could consider making a .zip with those and sending it to us so that we could put it in the downloads section.

[dominus]

something you could do would be make it that the energy spires(not sure what name is, sorry.) can attack when you get initiates to pray at it. kind of like orc burrow, but the initiates are exposed

[sinvaari]

I have to say...Glest is top notch. I did notice, however, that the Tech faction seems to have an advantage in fielding units.

Specifically, I think the fact that the Magic faction has to 'advance' Initiates to more powerful units puts them at a severe disadvantage. Not only does it take time to field more powerful units using the Magic faction, but it also eats up resources.

[GTivvyBathurst]

my my my...people seem to think tech is overpowered dont they...
Magic is overpowered.
Yes, I agree that tech are better to start with to a certain degree
But that "advantage" lasts 5 minutes.
I've tried both factions and I noticed that the midpoint of the game is
Yes, you guessed it, 5 minutes!!!
Unit balancing is essential. A wider variety of units would also be better.
Glest is the best free game I have played and I would love to see it grow.
However, unit balancing is *ESSENTIAL* to RTS's.
Dragons = the imbalance. Unless tech get gryphons or something
I dont see any way tech can win after approximately 10-15 minutes of gameplay.

edit: I'll be more than happy to slug this out with anyone.

[GTivvyBathurst]

I did notice, however, that the Tech faction seems to have an advantage in fielding units.

Specifically, I think the fact that the Magic faction has to 'advance' Initiates to more powerful units puts them at a severe disadvantage. Not only does it take time to field more powerful units using the Magic faction, but it also eats up resources.

Firstly: The Tech Faction can field units early because thats what they're all about. They are much like the human race in warcraft 3.

Secondly: "Advancing" initiates brings in a new dimension to RTS's.
Yes, it might be more resource consuming, its the gameplan that determines how long a player takes to get the better units. I believe that the newbies to glest believe tech are overpowered due to their rushing capabilities. Um, wake up and smell the java. "Rushing" is a 5 minute strategy!!! And by 7 minutes, the game IS AT ITS CLIMAX!!!  lol this is the  undead/night elf debate all over again... I am a newbie as well, but I have been playing RTS's since I was 8, and therefore know the structure of these types of games extremely well.

edit: I'm 15 - so thats 7 years of this stuff. want my resume on your desk by tomorrow? lol jk

[dominus]

there is a reason for summoners, such as massing daemons. I have seen one magic armor take out 5 archers on full health and 4 dragons = pwnage. to tell you the truth I dont usually take many battle mages anyway.

[GTivvyBathurst]

there is a reason for summoners, such as massing daemons. I have seen one magic armor take out 5 archers on full health and 4 dragons = pwnage. to tell you the truth I dont usually take many battle mages anyway.

yay some support. I gambled and I got it. Always trust friends!!!
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Yes, archers and battlemechs can hit dragons
but archers are too weak and battlemechs eat up too much food!!!

[enveloop]

And so, Tucho is working on a new unit that will help the Tech faction better counterattack the air raids.

[GTivvyBathurst]

yay elemination of air imbalance!!!

[dominus]

I hope you will be strengthening magic as a result, otherwise we'll have imbalance ahoy

[dominus]

yes, towers are implemented in any game simply as a way of defending. however in order to make it so you cant simply surround your enemy with towers, you should make it so they must be within a certain distance of a main building.

[StarEd]

In my opinion magic is overpowered but only a bit.

0 - Phase (the very beginning):
I can rush to death (at Four Rivers) Tech with  4 Battlemages, 1 Summoner and 2 Daemons. Of course it gives then no chances to grow (the strategy leaves 50 gold and no Initiates) but still allows to win in an unfair way.

1-2 - Phase (early-middle game)
I think it is the only time when Magic is a bit weaker than Tech.  But the difference is not too big.

3 - Phase (late game)
With Dragons and Archmages (potected by Magic Armours) soldier can be slaughtered easily. Of course, computer is not clever enough to use the mentioned units but achiving victory as Magic is much quicker in this phase.
Catapults' missiles are to slow or its splash is too little - at least I have never learnt to use it properly. Also the strongest Tech's unit - Battlemachine does not play its role. The problem is pretty the same as with Ultralisk in StarCraft: too huge, too slow and with so gentle attack.

In a minute of free time I will try to write a mod slighty changing units' stats and adding a few usefull upgrades.