Author Topic: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)  (Read 277766 times)

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1025 on: 23 July 2011, 17:24:51 »
I remember discussing the elite Brotherhood units with Zoy a while back, and I think what we came up with at the time was one cyborg heavy infantry unit (with a mini-gun?) and a chameleon-skinned mutant commando.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1026 on: 23 July 2011, 17:48:29 »
i guess we can flip those around a bit - make the SHADE trooper the cloakable one (with super cloak technology integrated into their suits, maybe give them bombs that they can use to destroy buildings, espionage stuff) and we can make the Mutant Commando the one who is "built to last." I can see two possible ways to implement the Commando: 1. a high damage/sight/speed/range but low HP/armor unit (a skirmisher) or 2. a high HP/armor/damage/sight/cost unit (expensive, but you get what you paid for).

hey, have you ever thought about giving the factions a one-build-only hero unit? an expensive infantry who can turn the tide of battle if used properly. take the heroes from C&C as a good example.

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1027 on: 23 July 2011, 18:04:49 »
I think we need a running list of ideas, so stuff doesn't get lost in the 40-some pages of this thread.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1028 on: 23 July 2011, 18:54:46 »
ok, so, after browsing back a few pages, here's the ideas that seem the most workable.

  • the SHADE Trooper, a soldier dedicated to stealth and sabotage
  • the Mutant or Cyborg Commando, a more attack based trooper
  • the abattoir, the Brethren's food production center (this is the only food production building idea ive seen)
  • a neutron bomb launcher, possibly an anti-unit artillery (since it cant destroy buildings, only cleanse them of "heathens")
  • a battle bus, a vehicle with lots of space for infantry that is mainly dependent upon the infantry inside of it for attacks.
  • a cleric of some sort, as i was just telling John over chat, maybe make this like a "warrior monk" of sorts, able to be a frontline infantry who buffs other infantry
  • gyrocopters as their mainline aircraft. specifically, a light gyro which has no attack and is designed for reconnaissance, and a heavy gyro which can hold a single infantry who can fire from it.
  • an attack dog who functions as a weak anti-infantry and the Brethren's land-detector unit.
  • a chemical sprayer as a possible anti-infantry base defense and maybe with a weaker form as a toxin spraying infantry.
  • a chemist unit who is an offensive support unit, designed to weaken the opposition through a variety of chemicals

im pretty sure i got it all...tell me if ive forgotten anything....

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1029 on: 23 July 2011, 20:41:06 »
Well, there was the battle bus idea, but after looking around on the C&C wiki, I see that the idea was already done almost exactly by the GLA in Zero Hour (with even the same name! >:(), which I was unaware of when I suggested it.  I only played regular C&C:G, not Zero Hour, so... whoops.  I mean, I guess we could still go with it, but I'd like to have at least a few original ideas here. :O

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1030 on: 23 July 2011, 20:43:34 »
Well, there was the battle bus idea, but after looking around on the C&C wiki, I see that the idea was already done almost exactly by the GLA in Zero Hour (with even the same name! >:(), which I was unaware of when I suggested it.  I only played regular C&C:G, not Zero Hour, so... whoops.  I mean, I guess we could still go with it, but I'd like to have at least a few original ideas here. :O
i was aware of this the whole time, and i figured you were too....

but, it would fit the Brethren's versatility aspect really well. we dont have to call it the Battle Bus, feel free to come up with names

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1031 on: 24 July 2011, 05:55:38 »
Updated techtree map, with new defensive structures:
Code: [Select]
[URL=http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4392/militarymap.jpg][IMG]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4392/militarymap.th.jpg[/img][/URL]


Bearing in mind that the focus is on the UNATF, and no real work besides the forum planning will be done to the Brotherhood until Apocalyptic Dawn version 3 is completed, tested, and stable.

Thoughts:
  • Bearing in mind this is a dominantly human/machine techtree, no crazed mutants, the Brotherhood is too controlled and tactical to be that reckless, anyway. The "battle bus" isn't a bad idea, if we can come up with a better name. It will still need at least some kind of basic attack though, as the CPU would otherwise be completely unable to use it.
  • There will probably not be any heroes in the regular games, but expect to see them in some scenarios ;).
  • The chemical "unit" mentioned would be the chemical sprayer, right?
  • The SHADE trooper could perhaps get multiple weapon choices in the same matter as UNATF's Infantry/Marine/Special Op. As could a "commando" unit.
  • Neutron bombs would be dropped from some kind of air craft. Obviously nobody wants to be dropping these things near their units, as defensive structures do. This will affect all units regardless of side.
  • Gyrocopters seem interesting, but why would a highly advanced terrorist organization want to use an ultra-light method of transportation which is inbetween a helicopter and fixed wing aircraft, and have loads of disadvantages (lack the precision of helicopters and cannot match an airplane's speed). Not to mention carrying a bomb could be difficult.
  • For defense: missile launchers.
  • Remake new technology. For example, take a tank, tweak it a bit, through some new guns on it, rechristen it under a fictional name (obviously they wouldn't be using American tanks, for example).
  • Obviously we don't want to copy C&C, but they do have some nice basic ideas. For example, we can have a nuclear armed plane made to be fast, having anti-air capabilities, and bombs to drop. (Inspiration)
  • For anti air, some type of quad cannon (Inspiration)
  • A napalm based weapon, since napalms are generally no longer used after Vietnam, which had them classified as inhuman. All the more fitting for the Brotherhood. (Inspiration).
  • A stationary defensive flamethrower turret. (Inspiration).
  • A very large, powerful assault tank with multiple cannons (Inspiration)
  • A form of mobile artillery (Inspiration)

    All just concept ideas.
« Last Edit: 8 October 2016, 06:44:37 by filux »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1032 on: 24 July 2011, 06:33:35 »
ok then, no mutated freaks....bummer.....

here's my ideas for the Brethren's three elite units (to mirror the UNATF's)

well, i think that one of the possible SHADE trooper "offshoots" is a stealthless, offensive cleric trooper (the one i talked about earlier). it would be a much more offensive version of the normal SHADE trooper, being a much more frontline unit that enhances the troops around it with speakers mounted on the shoulders that broadcast the will of the Brethren. it would have a similar, but bulkier, suit to the normal SHADEs, showing that it's not a "behind-the-scenes" unit as well as be given some badass weapons. lastly, the buff would be "overwrite," so you cant spam Clerics and create an unstoppable army.

you could make the toxin sprayer the third variation of the SHADE Trooper. give it slightly sleeker armor and dual toxin cannons on it's shoulders, and it would fill an anti-infantry role much like the UNATF sniper (without the range, of course). but it could do corrosive damage to the hulls of tanks and buildings, unlike the sniper which is can only hit infantry. the sniper would also have greater sight and range as well as the fact that it's cloaked.

the main SHADE trooper (the one that does cloak) could be given an assault rifle for basic defense and the ability to plant bombs on structures and tanks (a 1 range attack).

now, something that should be noted, all variations of the SHADE technology are resistant to things such as toxins and anything that places a lasting effect as well as immune to the effects themselves which may be put upon them (like all the UNATF's Elite units). also, they are still infantry, so snipers can still kill them with ease, and they are all ineffective against anti-inf weapons.

as a defense that is analogous to the ADS could be a broadcast tower (in a similar vein of the Cleric i spoke about a few lines up). this would be a much better version of the Cleric's abilities, buffing all units, not just infantry.

about the gyros, maybe as a scout-unit? the normal gyro is what you build, while the upgraded gyro is a morphed version of the first. they are cheap and can get the job done if you have enough. then you give them a fighter and the bomber that drops neutron bombs and they're set!

The battle bus (which i call the "BMS1-Safehaven" or just "Safehaven" for short, please can we go with this name?) could be their idea of an APC. it would be weaker than the UNATF's structurally, but would allow the infantry to attack from within.

the quad cannon could be their version of the SAM site, a base defense. then we could make a weaker, mobile version for mobile anti-air, but only anti-air.

so, flame tank as the mainline anti-inf tank? C&C3 proved that a flame tank would also be good against buildings as well.

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1033 on: 24 July 2011, 22:35:35 »
Not so sure about the Cleric and Broadcast tower ideas. I would imagine them as more straightforward and down to the point, not to mention the thought of someone walking around with speakers in the middle of a battle spouting off extremist ideals sounds a bit far fetched. Not to say there won't be boosting units, though ;)

I like the name "Safehaven" for the battlebus. :)

For gyrocopters, the concept of making them a weak, early available air unit sounds like a good idea. In most Glest mods, air units are generally only available late in the game, so making one available semi-early will be an interesting turn. Perhaps the first stage would have just a weak machine gun, while the upgraded version would have an improved machine gun and the ability to drop small bombs (infrequently).

As for planting bombs on structures, I don't really see how that would work, since there's no way to delay an attack or let a unit know they should be getting out of the way, so don't think that would really work. Besides, like most stealth units, they would have a detector of some type, so they'd be unlikely to get close to any buildings stealthily (unless said buildings are far away from the base or the foe has not constructed the detector unit). Who will detect the stealthy SHADE unit anyway?

I may try to make a rough starter faction map later.



EDIT: Behold, The Brotherhood, version one. Because they create their own weaponry and aren't affiliated with any country, all weaponry names are made up. These are subject to change as are the units themselves.

Code: [Select]
[URL=http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4007/brotherhoodmap.jpg][IMG]http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4007/brotherhoodmap.th.jpg[/img][/URL]
Because of these obscure(ish) names, some brief descriptions of the units:
  • B5 Redeemer (typo on the uploaded version) - The neutron dropping aircraft
  • S1 Gyrocopter - Basic gyrocopter with a machine gun
  • S1A Gyrocopter - Improved version with better stats and bomb dropping abilities
  • T-22 Ember Jet Fighter - Fast nuclear powered and armed jet, also capable of dropping "dirty bombs" (radiation weapons) and attacking other air units
  • RPG-T9 Commando - RPG wielding unit
  • P626 Commando - Standard early-mid game unit
  • A-22 Commando - Grenade launcher unit with two types of attacks, a chemical grenade and a frag grenade
  • BMS-1 Safehaven - APC-like vehicle units can shoot out of
  • T5 Reaper - A powerful dou-cannon super tank
  • Inferno A2 - Flamethrower tank
  • Spearhead Destroyer - Standard offensive naval unit armed with torpedoes and radiation bombs
  • Tanker ship - Transportation ship
  • Marauder buggy - Fast land transportation similar to the Humvee
  • IT26 SHADE Trooper - Stealthy advanced infantry with a sniper rifle and grenade launcher
  • PT4A SHADE Trooper - Fast and strong shock troop
  • CM-5 SHADE Trooper - Chemical sprayer unit
  • Launch Platform - Special attack user, releases the LGM-1 Armageddon MIRV Missile
  • L292 Howitzer - Mobile howitzer tank
  • Q4 Multi-cannon - Mobile anti-air attacker
  • GP-Torch (and upgrades) - Flamethrower cannon. First is bursts of flame, second lobs napalm bombs, third increases radius and gives an effect
  • L122 Pacesetter - Basic anti-air defensive unit, launches missiles
  • L152 Takeout - Advanced anti-air defensive unit with powerful guided missiles
  • M82 Blitz - Fast direct fire defensive cannon that uses kinetic energy
  • K2 Nomad - Upgraded version of the M82 Blitz with explosive warheads
  • Follower - Worker style unit

Of course, all can change if needed. As well, I've decided that it's too easy to spam the special attack weapons, so they are going to be changed to limit only one to be built at a time. This is done by having a hidden static resource of which one is supplied at the start and more are never given. If the unit dies, you receive this special resource back, so you can build another. This will help balance things out, as the special attacks weren't meant to have multiples of. Some scenarios may allow more to be built.

As we see from this map, the Brotherhood is more machine and vehicle based while the UNATF is more infantry based. Because you will have more open options with unit choices, it becomes more important to choose wisely which units you will use to combat the foe, not always choosing the strongest units, as their considerably higher resource costs will only allow you to make a limited number, whereas you could make a larger number of more diverse units. All in the strategy.
« Last Edit: 8 October 2016, 06:46:33 by filux »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1034 on: 25 July 2011, 03:16:28 »
ok, some comments i have about this working tech tree:

the IT26 SHADE has a sniper rifle, that conflicts with the UNATF's Sniper. I think it should be given a simple medium assault rifle such as the H&K G36 for basic defense (since it's made for speed and stealth, it shouldnt be carrying much).

if you dont want to go with Cleric idea, maybe make the PT4A SHADE a heavy assault infantry. like, a slow shock trooper designed to take great damage and deal just as much (maybe rockets and a chaingun?). yes, this would be expensive....

the CM-5 is fine as long as it's powerful against infantry and ok against vehicles at short range. it's designed to be a solely anti-unit infantry.

about the advanced gyro, it should gain the attack upgrades as well be able to hold a passenger.

lastly, i still think they should have something which gives them a quasi-religious feel, such as a temple or broadcast center.

PS. you spelled "Research" wrong
« Last Edit: 25 July 2011, 03:24:39 by Zoythrus »

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1035 on: 25 July 2011, 06:08:17 »
the IT26 SHADE has a sniper rifle, that conflicts with the UNATF's Sniper. I think it should be given a simple medium assault rifle such as the H&K G36 for basic defense (since it's made for speed and stealth, it shouldnt be carrying much).
I suppose that could work, maybe give him an EMP grenade secondary attack for extra thrills (deals a special effect against machine units).

maybe make the PT4A SHADE a heavy assault infantry. like, a slow shock trooper designed to take great damage and deal just as much (maybe rockets and a chaingun?). yes, this would be expensive....
That would work well. Perhaps the PT4A can be a portable chaingun of some type, and a secondary rocket launcher attack.

the CM-5 is fine as long as it's powerful against infantry and ok against vehicles at short range. it's designed to be a solely anti-unit infantry.
Well, the regular chemicals are nearly useless against non-infantry (0.1x multiplier), but I'm thinking a corrosive secondary chemical that has an effect of mild damage and reducing foes defenses for a lengthy period of time.

about the advanced gyro, it should gain the attack upgrades as well be able to hold a passenger.
Yes.

lastly, i still think they should have something which gives them a quasi-religious feel, such as a temple or broadcast center.
Just not sure if we should properly throw in any real references to such a controversial topic. Even in the backstory, we don't go over why they want to rebuild the world, might be easier to leave at just that. Though, if we were to create a broadcast tower, what would it do?
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1036 on: 25 July 2011, 06:40:47 »
lastly, i still think they should have something which gives them a quasi-religious feel, such as a temple or broadcast center.
Just not sure if we should properly throw in any real references to such a controversial topic. Even in the backstory, we don't go over why they want to rebuild the world, might be easier to leave at just that. Though, if we were to create a broadcast tower, what would it do?
a bunch of morale-boosting propaganda/lies aimed at the insurgents. things like "fight for the cause and you will be rewarded greatly with riches and glory!" the attack speed and armor of units are boosted when around a broadcast tower.

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1037 on: 25 July 2011, 13:30:17 »
To avoid reusing the battlebus idea, have you considered a reinforced truck, the germans used those in Graebner's assault on Arnhem Bridge. They were pretty much trucks with sandbags, metal plates, and sand filled jerrycans on the inside to reinforce them against bullets.

I also feel your giving the Cult a lot of high tech stuff that would be better off with the UNATF side, for example, all of the SP(self propelled) stuff really doesn't seem to fit in. After all, where would they get it, since russia and china don't have much of those things, as far as I know, and the western world wouldn't sell them. I think they should get stuff along the british/italian portee principle, where you can mount an artillery cannon, AA gun or AT gun on a flatbed truck and shoot from it before running away, of course, sacrificing survivability when you do so.

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1038 on: 25 July 2011, 19:31:18 »
a bunch of morale-boosting propaganda/lies aimed at the insurgents. things like "fight for the cause and you will be rewarded greatly with riches and glory!" the attack speed and armor of units are boosted when around a broadcast tower.
That could be done, though my worries is that they already have plenty of upgrades, though I suppose we could fit in more, though avoiding becoming overpowered while doing so may be hard. Not sure how effective boosting would be though, since it would only work when defending very close to your base.

I also feel your giving the Cult a lot of high tech stuff that would be better off with the UNATF side, for example, all of the SP(self propelled) stuff really doesn't seem to fit in. After all, where would they get it, since russia and china don't have much of those things, as far as I know, and the western world wouldn't sell them. I think they should get stuff along the british/italian portee principle, where you can mount an artillery cannon, AA gun or AT gun on a flatbed truck and shoot from it before running away, of course, sacrificing survivability when you do so.
Of course the Brotherhood has lots of high tech stuff. None of it is imported from other countries directly (though resources may be imported separately and stealthily under fake corporations), they build their own weapons. Think of it like the Manhattan Project, but for terrorists, where the best (and most corrupt) minds in the world just decided to make some rather nasty weapons. Bear in mind this also takes place a good chunk of years into the future, and unlike regular countries, the Brotherhood doesn't need to spend years testing and perfecting their weapons. They get something that works, they mass distribute it and throw it in to gain an upper hand. This is more than just a war against the UNATF for them, but a war against time.

You could even consider the Brotherhood to be weaker than they could be, since chemical weapons like the Novichok agents would have the potential to kill nearly everyone they affected before the foe would have the chance to protect themselves from it. Or imagine a plane that released anthrax spores over an entire civilian city? Same thing for the UNATF, their nuclear missiles would generally have the potential to destroy the entire game map five times over, but are downscaled for balance and playability.

As well, you must also remember to look at the balance of it. Were any terrorist organization today were to march in a conventional war against, say, the US alone, they would be decimated almost instantly. Instead, they hide away and deliver the vast majority of their kills with explosives hidden under their roads. Such principals wouldn't work well here, and it would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The AI would also be unable to play such methods at all. Thus, the Brotherhood is well organized and very well equipped. These aren't current day terrorists, this is terrorism evolved.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1039 on: 25 July 2011, 19:53:19 »
Candidates and inspiration for the battle bus: http://defense-update.com/products/g/grizzly_bw.htm, http://defense-update.com/products/c/cougar.htm

No mutants?  Darn, I was even coming up with a backstory about how the Brotherhood scientists were the spiritual successors of the Axis scientists in WW2, and have been conducting genetics experiments on human subjects for the past century or so.  Anyway, I think the cult's commando unit could be an anti-sniper -- invisible to the sniper's detection, and using a stealthy melee attack (e.g. machete) to take them out.

Regarding whether the cult is religious or secular, I had really just imagined them as dogmatic conspiracy theorists -- the kind who think the Illumaniti, Freemasons, Zionists, Opus Dei, or whoever are trying to put the world under some draconian one-world government.  These guys are all over Youtube, and they really are as crazy as you can imagine.  They have been working at this for a long time, and when the EU unites as a single nation and the UN starts picking up additional powers, the cult leaders see this as a definite sign that the New World Order is at hand unless they unleash all kinds of trouble to bring them down (i.e. the zombie plague, nukes, ebola, assassinations, crashing the stock market, whatever).  Once the nations of the world have been destroyed, the Brethren can rebuild the world as a utopia.

Even if the cult is well-funded, I would imagine that they still rely a lot on masses of fanatical volunteers with little training, so I was thinking to counter the UN's three basic infantry, the cult could have...
  • Hunter fanatic -- Hunting is still a way of life in rural areas all over the world, from Siberia to West Virginia.  Although this hunter has no real military training, armed with a powerful hunting rifle or old military rifle ([wiki].30-06[/wiki] or similar), he has a long range attack that does high damage to personnel.  However, he is no match for a true sniper.  Research will allow him to lay bear anti-personnel traps.
  • [wiki]AK-47[/wiki] fanatic -- The cult is able to acquire AK-47s and warm bodies both in frightening quantities.  This soldier, and I use the term loosely, has very little training and attacks with the [wiki]spray and pray[/wiki] method.  The powerful 7.62mm rounds give them a pretty good damage output, and their firing style covers a medium splash area, but they run out of bullets quickly and often end up catching their allies in their vollies.  Research will equip him with a molatov attack.
  • [wiki]RPG-7[/wiki] fanatic -- This old anti-armor weapon is several decades out of date by the time of this conflict, but is still readily available in many parts of the world, and can still pack a punch.  Modern tanks can withstand its blasts, but light vehicles and personnel are still quite vulnerable.
The cult has access to much better and newer weaponry, so they offload their surplus of AK-47 and RPG-7 to their highly-expendable recruits.  The "commandos" (marine equivalents) would probably be mercenaries and ex-military cult members with modern weaponry.

Other miscellaneous ideas:
  • [wiki]Spider hole[/wiki] -- This stealthy bunker allows one person to hide inside.
  • Speed boat -- Similar to the [wiki]USS Cole bombing[/wiki], the cult uses explosive-armed speed boats to launch suicide attacks against UN naval targets.  The boat can also be loaded and used as a light transport.  Maybe it should be an amphibious hovercraft to simplify things.
  • Junk yard / Garage -- This building is not equipped to produce or service high-end vehicles, but it is available early in the game and can piece together technicals (is that what the Marauder buggy is?), gyros, and speed boats, and can train the mechanics to service them.
  • Compound -- This is a makeshift building, probably converted from a clubhouse or old church, equipped with barbed wire and chain link fences.  It serves as a recruitment center for basic troops.
  • IED -- A staple of asymmetrical warfare is the booby trap, and old Soviet munitions make excellent examples.  This can come in anti-personnel, anti-vehicle, and dirty nuclear varieties.
  • Mechanic -- Recruited from auto shops, junk yards, and trade schools, mechanics are employed by the cult in repairing vehicles and building IEDs.
  • War dog -- No machine invented so far can match the detection ability of a dog's nose, so dogs are excellent at scouting and detecting hidden enemy soldiers and explosives.  They are most useful for scouting, patrolling, and mine sweeping, but a dog can also tackle and maul a human opponent, causing damage over time while reducing the victim's attack and movement.  This makes for a deadly combination with riflemen, who can finish off the pinned enemy.

Elite units (SHADE alternatives):
  • Guerrilla commando -- As mentioned above, this soldier is a highly-trained stealth killer.  He lurks in the shadows and slits throats silently.  Although he lacks range, he can sneak up on enemy snipers and kill them without being detected.  If we have mutants, he is one.  His chameleon skin makes him impossible to spot by ordinary means, and he regenerates faster than a regular human.  If not a mutant, he's just really good at sneaking.
  • MAPAS (Mechanically Assisted Personnel Armor System) -- If we're allowing cyborgs or power armor, this is where they come into play.  Made of dense materials like [wiki]tungsten carbide[/wiki] or [wiki]depleted uranium[/wiki], this armor's weight would not allow its wearer to move without hydraulic assistance.  His power armor makes him very bulky and heavy, so he can't be transported by light vehicles.  MAPAS soldiers are always highly trained, hand-picked elites.  The MAPAS comes in the following varieties:
  • MAPAS Autocannon -- His multi-barrelled heavy machine gun ([wiki]GAU-8 Avenger[/wiki] or similar) is equipped with armor-piercing uranium rounds, making it highly effective against vehicles, including tanks and even aircraft.  Any personnel caught in its firing arc are in danger of being turned to soup.
  • MAPAS Flamethrower -- This soldier's heavy armor allows him to get close enough to the enemy to utilize his short-range attack, which is excellent against personnel and buildings.
  • MAPAS Commander -- Raised in secrecy by the cult and trained from childhood to command troops, the MAPAS commander is both feared and respected.  He is the largest and toughest of the MAPAS units, and his leadership boosts the fervor of surrounding allies.  If overpowered, this could be a one-at-a-time hero unit.

Anybody want to create a Google Doc or something, where we can compile ideas, instead of scattering them around?
« Last Edit: 8 October 2016, 06:48:05 by filux »

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1040 on: 25 July 2011, 21:00:23 »
The technicals could work like portees, with the basic model having an HMG  and passenger ability while other models have a rocket battery(katyusha anyone?), or a large artillery cannon. I agree with most of what John said except for the AT minigun person, I'd think he should have a minigun and some sort of AT rocket launcher. Maybe the Cult could upgrade the dogs to suicide dogs that have bombs strapped to them to destroy tanks. They could also have some WWII Era AT guns with High tech Range finders to take out enemy tanks. Take the SU-100 and its stationary AT gun brethren as an example, both served into recent times and the AT power is more then adequate to pierce and make mincemeat out of an Abrams. All it lacks is the ability to get the first shot off which it could get with better range finders

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1041 on: 25 July 2011, 22:58:31 »
Even if the cult is well-funded, I would imagine that they still rely a lot on masses of fanatical volunteers with little training, so I was thinking to counter the UN's three basic infantry, the cult could have...

I think we're largely underestimating the Brotherhood. They may be brutal and willing to achieve this new world order by any means possible, but they have one considerable difference from current terrorist organizations: they are smart. They've learned from the mistakes of the past, realizing that throwing untrained followers with an automatic rifle simply will not work. Not when there is now hundreds of the world's most elite soldiers determined to destroy them, and they're massively outnumbered as well (there's a lot more good people in the world than bad). New recruits to their cause undergo a rapid fast and brutal three month training program before thrusting them into the war (think of it like wartime conscription, nobody wants to send in an office worker who doesn't even know how to reload a gun, but give him a few months of brutal training and he'll at least stand a chance of survival. He may not be as good as the better trained, experienced military officer, but at least he won't be spraying bullets everywhere doing nothing).

Thus, these limited numbers have to be used efficiently. The inspiration for the Brotherhood is not any past terrorist organization (they all lost, goes to show how well that works), but working almost like a country of its own. Were it a country, the Brotherhood would be a super power to rival Russia, but with several distinct advantages. Firstly, they have no set land nor civilians that can be harmed. This makes invasions harder and make nuclear weapons less effective. Next, they don't have to worry about the civilians at all, and can devote all their spending to their cause. They are also not to any agreements to limit power, and will happily use outlawed weaponry with chemicals or biological weapons.

Thus, unlike the suicidal terrorists of today, which always ultimately fail, the Brotherhood has evolved past those points. Like a soldier in Afghanistan who may be willing to die for his country, he certainly doesn't want to die. He's prepared to if he has to, but surviving is...better. Same for the Brotherhood, they may be willing to die for this new world order, but they'd rather live to see it themselves. With such small numbers, every death means one less person to fight for their cause. In the end, they are more like an army with no morals than a terrorist organization. Not to mention I'm pretty sure a hunter with a shotgun would get downed pretty fast if he was thrown against a SEAL. As shown by the results of past wars, training makes a massive difference.

Candidates and inspiration for the battle bus: http://defense-update.com/products/g/grizzly_bw.htm, http://defense-update.com/products/c/cougar.htm
For the battle bus, I think that BW Grizzly is the best looking, though our brotherhood would naturally have to tone theirs down a touch. Whereas the Grizzly claims to be capable of defending troops from IEDs and even .50 bullets, for balance, I think the Brotherhood's should not be immune to .50 bullets. :P Add in some "windows" to shoot from, though, and it looks like a very good candidate.

No mutants?  Darn, I was even coming up with a backstory about how the Brotherhood scientists were the spiritual successors of the Axis scientists in WW2, and have been conducting genetics experiments on human subjects for the past century or so.
Don't get your hopes up on no mutants, just not in the main game. Not to say that there won't be any outbreaks in scenarios, though...

Anyway, I think the cult's commando unit could be an anti-sniper -- invisible to the sniper's detection, and using a stealthy melee attack (e.g. machete) to take them out.
That sounds like a better use for their SHADE stealth unit. Rather than an assault rifle as per Zoy way above, a stealthy machete to slice snipers up, and make them detectors to snipers, while being stealthy themselves. 

Regarding whether the cult is religious or secular, I had really just imagined them as dogmatic conspiracy theorists -- the kind who think the Illumaniti, Freemasons, Zionists, Opus Dei, or whoever are trying to put the world under some draconian one-world government.  These guys are all over Youtube, and they really are as crazy as you can imagine.  They have been working at this for a long time, and when the EU unites as a single nation and the UN starts picking up additional powers, the cult leaders see this as a definite sign that the New World Order is at hand unless they unleash all kinds of trouble to bring them down (i.e. the zombie plague, nukes, ebola, assassinations, crashing the stock market, whatever).  Once the nations of the world have been destroyed, the Brethren can rebuild the world as a utopia.
Fitting.

  • Speed boat -- Similar to the [wiki]USS Cole bombing[/wiki], the cult uses explosive-armed speed boats to launch suicide attacks against UN naval targets.  The boat can also be loaded and used as a light transport.  Maybe it should be an amphibious hovercraft to simplify things.
As mentioned above, the suicide idea doesn't fit the Brotherhood's ambitions well, but a speedboat with guns, perhaps even a napalm may be interesting, since most ships in the game are huge, and unable to navigate rivers, whereas a speedboat could take to the rivers and be more useful against land units (whereas other boats are largely used for the purpose of preventing enemies from transporting units with their transport ships (sink a transport ship: kill everyone on board)).

  • IED -- A staple of asymmetrical warfare is the booby trap, and old Soviet munitions make excellent examples.  This can come in anti-personnel, anti-vehicle, and dirty nuclear varieties.
IED's themselves are actually great ideas, at first thought, and have been considered since the beginning days of this faction (earlier versions included a mine), but ultimately were completely unused because the AI had incredible difficulty using them, it seemed impractical that you couldn't walk on top of them (if size 1, as size 0 made them impossible to destroy, even with a splash), that your own units could go "near" them safely while the foe's couldn't, etc.

  • War dog -- No machine invented so far can match the detection ability of a dog's nose, so dogs are excellent at scouting and detecting hidden enemy soldiers and explosives.  They are most useful for scouting, patrolling, and mine sweeping, but a dog can also tackle and maul a human opponent, causing damage over time while reducing the victim's attack and movement.  This makes for a deadly combination with riflemen, who can finish off the pinned enemy.
We may need to make an attack dog as an anti-stealth unit. What building to produce from though? Leaning towards Operations Center.

If we're allowing cyborgs or power armor, this is where they come into play.
I think the primary issue with power armour is that we are only roughly 20 years in the future, and the technology being used by each side is largely already possible. As well, there's a slight issue with the fact that the Brotherhood has 34 units, about double that of a standard faction... Are we perhaps getting a bit over our heads? It'll be hard enough to learn these units even with tooltips on every unit and attack, a 5 part tutorial (per faction), and full documentation. Plus, the buildings alone already nearly overflow the base given on most maps, and some maps don't even give enough room to allow the full base to be built in one location.

Anybody want to create a Google Doc or something, where we can compile ideas, instead of scattering them around?
Be my guest.
« Last Edit: 8 October 2016, 06:48:54 by filux »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1042 on: 26 July 2011, 00:31:39 »
Too bad Glest isn't like Warzone 2100, there you have a bunch of upgrades and hundreds of possible armor weapon combinations to make your units, that would make it much easier to learn.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1043 on: 26 July 2011, 00:54:39 »
ok, a bunch of things i'd like to say:

we had already established that the War Dog was going to be the Brethren's main land detector, and no, no blowing up dogs.

let's make the heavy SHADE unit the Autocannon MAPAS unit (actually, this was what i was trying to go for in the first place), then we can modify the flamethrower MAPAS unit and make it the Brethren's third elite unit.

with the stealthy SHADE unit, he should be given the assault rifle for basic defense, but it breaks his cloak. the knife, on the other hand, wouldnt, but it forces him to get much closer to infantry to kill them.

ok, so for the UNATF, the sniper is the main land detector and the Grey Eagle can detect everything (even in the water!). i like the idea of the SHADE countering the sniper, as long as the sniper can still 1-shot the SHADE if it's detected by a Grey Eagle.

now, here's a suggestion: the UNATF should focus on survivability while the Brethren should focus on power. so, the UNATF go for a slightly more defensive stance at the cost of some speed, while the Brethren go for strength/speed at the cost of overall HP/armor
« Last Edit: 26 July 2011, 03:06:32 by Zoythrus »

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1044 on: 26 July 2011, 04:52:35 »
let's make the heavy SHADE unit the Autocannon MAPAS unit (actually, this was what i was trying to go for in the first place), then we can modify the flamethrower MAPAS unit and make it the Brethren's third elite unit.

with the stealthy SHADE unit, he should be given the assault rifle for basic defense, but it breaks his cloak. the knife, on the other hand, wouldnt, but it forces him to get much closer to infantry to kill them.
Modifying thoughts now, what if the first SHADE unit is the stealthy one with an assault rifle, but also a knife that can one hit kill any infantry, but has a cool down period, as well as requires the unit to get up close and personal (though he can remain under stealth). The second SHADE unit is the heavy one, with a WIP power suit which is slow, but allows him to have a (small) missile launcher and flamethrower (think of some of the...chunkier... ones in Ironman). Finally, the third SHADE unit is the chemical sprayer.

ok, so for the UNATF, the sniper is the main land detector and the Grey Eagle can detect everything (even in the water!). i like the idea of the SHADE countering the sniper, as long as the sniper can still 1-shot the SHADE if it's detected by a Grey Eagle.
Well, let's take a closer look. So, the stealth units in UNATF are the B-2 Spirit and the XM500 Special Op. The B-2 Spirit can only be detected by UNATF's Patriot Missile System, while the Brotherhood detects it with their L152 Takeout unit. The XM500 Special Op can be detected by the MQ-1C Grey Eagle in UNATF and the Attack Dog or the IT26 SHADE Trooper in the Brotherhood. Both of these lose stealth temporarily while attacking.

In the Brotherhood, there is currently only IT26 SHADE Trooper with stealth, and it is detected by the MQ-1C Grey Eagle in UNATF and the Attack Dog in the Brotherhood. It loses stealth if it attacks with it's gun, but not if it attacks with its knife. As necessary, all units must have some type of detector in both factions (so in a Brotherhood vs Brotherhood game, things still work, etc).

now, here's a suggestion: the UNATF should focus on survivability while the Brethren should focus on power. so, the UNATF go for a slightly more defensive stance at the cost of some speed, while the Brethren go for strength/speed at the cost of overall HP/armor
They pretty much do this already, to be honest. For example, whereas the UNATF has stronger defenses with its Pillbox/Fortified Pillbox/Bunker, the Brotherhood has less defense there, but stronger offense, such as seen by its super tank, the T5 Reaper, as well as the powersuit warrior, the CM-5 SHADE Trooper.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1045 on: 26 July 2011, 05:01:21 »
ok, a bunch of things i'd like to say:

we had already established that the War Dog was going to be the Brethren's main land detector, and no, no blowing up dogs.

let's make the heavy SHADE unit the Autocannon MAPAS unit (actually, this was what i was trying to go for in the first place), then we can modify the flamethrower MAPAS unit and make it the Brethren's third elite unit.

with the stealthy SHADE unit, he should be given the assault rifle for basic defense, but it breaks his cloak. the knife, on the other hand, wouldnt, but it forces him to get much closer to infantry to kill them.

ok, so for the UNATF, the sniper is the main land detector and the Grey Eagle can detect everything (even in the water!). i like the idea of the SHADE countering the sniper, as long as the sniper can still 1-shot the SHADE if it's detected by a Grey Eagle.

now, here's a suggestion: the UNATF should focus on survivability while the Brethren should focus on power. so, the UNATF go for a slightly more defensive stance at the cost of some speed, while the Brethren go for strength/speed at the cost of overall HP/armor
Why no suicide dogs? It fits the Cult concept and its been used in history, Russians used it versus German tanks with limited success.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1046 on: 26 July 2011, 05:04:32 »
let's make the heavy SHADE unit the Autocannon MAPAS unit (actually, this was what i was trying to go for in the first place), then we can modify the flamethrower MAPAS unit and make it the Brethren's third elite unit.

with the stealthy SHADE unit, he should be given the assault rifle for basic defense, but it breaks his cloak. the knife, on the other hand, wouldnt, but it forces him to get much closer to infantry to kill them.
Modifying thoughts now, what if the first SHADE unit is the stealthy one with an assault rifle, but also a knife that can one hit kill any infantry, but has a cool down period, as well as requires the unit to get up close and personal (though he can remain under stealth). The second SHADE unit is the heavy one, with a WIP power suit which is slow, but allows him to have a (small) missile launcher and flamethrower (think of some of the...chunkier... ones in Ironman). Finally, the third SHADE unit is the chemical sprayer.
the SHADE should be the stealth unit, the MAPAS should be heavy assault, and the third should have a different acronym, and be the well rounded elite unit. (this is all so that the elites are memorable, and so that it shows that the suits may be related, but have totally different functions)
Quote from: Omega
ok, so for the UNATF, the sniper is the main land detector and the Grey Eagle can detect everything (even in the water!). i like the idea of the SHADE countering the sniper, as long as the sniper can still 1-shot the SHADE if it's detected by a Grey Eagle.
Well, let's take a closer look. So, the stealth units in UNATF are the B-2 Spirit and the XM500 Special Op. The B-2 Spirit can only be detected by UNATF's Patriot Missile System, while the Brotherhood detects it with their L152 Takeout unit. The XM500 Special Op can be detected by the MQ-1C Grey Eagle in UNATF and the Attack Dog or the IT26 SHADE Trooper in the Brotherhood. Both of these lose stealth temporarily while attacking.

In the Brotherhood, there is currently only IT26 SHADE Trooper with stealth, and it is detected by the MQ-1C Grey Eagle in UNATF and the Attack Dog in the Brotherhood. It loses stealth if it attacks with it's gun, but not if it attacks with its knife. As necessary, all units must have some type of detector in both factions (so in a Brotherhood vs Brotherhood game, things still work, etc).
no, the sniper should remain cloaked while attacking, because that's the point of a sniper. now, maybe moving should reveal it, so that it's not used as a reconnaissance unit (that's what the Grey Eagle is for). and im ok with the Grey Eagle being the UNATF's only unit detector.

and, @Wyvern, do you want PETA on our tails? and blowing up dogs would make me cry  :'(

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1047 on: 26 July 2011, 13:49:01 »
But were not saying its right to blow up dogs, it only makes another reason to show how wrong the Brotherhood is. I don't think the sniper should be revealed when he shoots but he should have a a longer distance cloak when he moves so that the enemy can spot him from a closer distance when moving

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1048 on: 26 July 2011, 16:24:43 »
@Wyvern, Omega just said that the Brethren are much better than strapping bombs to animals (or anything for that matter). although, i think it would be kinda interesting if the weakest infantry that they have could do a suicide bomb run if his AK-47 isnt doing anything to the enemy (instead of molotovs).

now, to give the Cult more of a stealth idea, we could give them cloak towers (as a counterpart to the ADS). it would cloak everything around itself, even itself! but any unit attacking from under cloak would reveal that unit, so you would want to put your guys on hold fire if you didnt want to expose yourself. this tower could be upgraded once for a small HP/armor boost and a larger cloak field. i think that this would fit the Cult well because it can give them an offensive edge. NOTE: any detector could find these cloaked units.

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1049 on: 26 July 2011, 17:16:39 »
I have an idea, what if there was an infiltrator, who was completely stealthed, has an instant kill knife attack, SMG, and explosives to blow up the enemy buildings including Defenses in one hit. However, it would take a long time to reload

 

anything