Author Topic: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)  (Read 277764 times)

Zoythrus

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1050 on: 26 July 2011, 17:22:03 »
I have an idea, what if there was an infiltrator, who was completely stealthed, has an instant kill knife attack, SMG, and explosives to blow up the enemy buildings including Defenses in one hit. However, it would take a long time to reload
well, that's kinda the point of the SHADE trooper, maybe a demolitions attack would be cool....but these guys would have to be pretty expensive...

John.d.h

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1051 on: 26 July 2011, 17:46:18 »
It does seem like the Brotherhood should have another stealth unit or two, doesn't it?  Maybe they could have some kind of spy or saboteur, who sneaks around and cripples enemy vehicles?  Or maybe some of their infantry should be able to energy cloak, uncloaked by shooting or moving.

I definitely think that the UN sniper should retain cloaking while firing, but lose it while moving.  It just doesn't make much sense otherwise.  Snipers sometimes spend days getting into a good position, and then they can pick off enemies from a distance with virtual impunity for a while.

I agree with having the dog trained at the ops facility, since they would need special training and maybe extra growth hormones or something.  Police and military dogs tend to be very highly trained, so I doubt they would want to strap a bomb to such a valuable asset.

An untrained hunter might not be a match for a Navy SEAL, but masses of rabble with guns raised all kinds of Hell for enemy forces in Somalia, Iraq, Palestine, and Afghanistan.  Besides, they're not meant to be a match for the spec ops, but a group of five fanatics could probably be a match for three standard infantry.  It's not that the Brethren need to rely on swarms of idiots, but if you've got thousands (millions?) of people ready and willing to die for the cause, plus a few million surplus guns, minus any respect for human life, it would be foolish not to use them.  They could certainly be a valuable asset early in the war/scenario, before they gain enough momentum and capital (i.e. build the proper buildings) to hire decent mercenaries, or just as cannon fodder.  Plus, if they have slightly different roles than later units (e.g. the AK is a splash unit), they don't become obsolete very fast.

Regarding the cloaking tower, that is sorta what my spider hole idea was for.  Dig a hole in the ground and throw a camouflage net over it, and it will be pretty hard to spot for an average joe walking by.  Of course, they could have a bigger pit for multiple units, and it would be immediately detectable to a dog's nose and a UAV's infrared camera.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BQI_pvyY5BeZYaF2FgYHkGM33bsMYAoP-TyaO-O1rqs/edit?hl=en_US

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1052 on: 26 July 2011, 20:47:27 »
Firstly, there will not be bombs strapped to dogs, as training an attack dog is harder than training a human, making them far, far too valuable to lose. The attack dog will be relatively expensive, but fast speed and the cloaking detection is almost invaluable.

As for the UNATF Sniper, I suppose we can try it with cloaking only going away on movement, though my worry is that if you stand in a position without moving, you'll never be found until late in the game in a UNATF v UNATF game, since the UNATF detector is the (late game) UAV.

And while the Brotherhood may have lots of supporters, they are vastly outnumbered by the UNATF, so can't afford to waste those valuable supporters by throwing them into a suicide mission. They'd want to make sure it's the best they can get. It's like World War conscription, they'd throw you through some quick training before throwing you into this war.

The spider hole may actually be a good idea, however, it may be an interesting concept to have the UNATF more geared towards defense and the Brotherhood towards offense, as per Zoy earlier. Stealth is a defensive mechanism (it doesn't deal damage of any sort, but helps save the unit and can be used to fortify defensive positions), so it's not necessarily unbalanced if the UNATF has two kinds of stealth units while the Brotherhood has one. Not to mention the Brotherhood's stealth unit is far more versatile. The UNATF's B-2 Spirit always uncloaks on attack, and being a late game unit, there's a good chance the foe will have a detecting Patriot Missile System or L152 Takeout. The XM500 Special Op has the weakness of only having stealth when not moving. But the Brotherhood's stealth unit can move and is capable of a stealthy attack, as well as more intermediate range attacks.

the SHADE should be the stealth unit, the MAPAS should be heavy assault, and the third should have a different acronym, and be the well rounded elite unit. (this is all so that the elites are memorable, and so that it shows that the suits may be related, but have totally different functions)
Fair enough for me, got an idea on an acronym/name for the chemical sprayer then? TORCH - Tandem Orientated Relay Chemical Hunter?

While I agree that a demolitions attack for the SHADE trooper would be cool, I just don't see any way it would be done? Unless you have some idea that won't involve blowing the unit to smithereens (ideally, he would place some type of charge on the building which would blow up after some time). What about creating a zero size unit that has EP regen of 1, and needs 3 EP to perform this specific blow up attack (so if placed near a building, it would blow up after 3 seconds, when it has full EP), and also give it 4 HP and a -1 HP regen, so it will die after 4 seconds (right after exploding). Being size zero, it be attacked (thus why it must die from HP regen instead of its splash attack). Only flaw? The AI will suck at it (though, I don't think they will use it even for now, and should we get Lua AI in the future, I will try and fix such a thing). In retrospective, that might actually work...

I have an idea, what if there was an infiltrator, who was completely stealthed, has an instant kill knife attack, SMG, and explosives to blow up the enemy buildings including Defenses in one hit. However, it would take a long time to reload
That really is the SHADE, it is stealthed, has an assault rifle, a knife that can do an instant kill (but has an EP cost to prevent overuse), and just might be getting an explosives attack. However, the explosives attack will NOT be one hit kill (even a nuclear bomb doesn't one hit any buildings), as that could be a game ender (I mean, a stealth unit you can't see just destroyed your resource building? Good fight). Though, the explosives would be reasonably powerful. The only restriction I can see is how to have cooldowns for both the knife and the explosive? I know there was a feature request for such a thing, but I believe it may have died. :( It would be possible to have both use EP, but I'd prefer the cooldowns be separate, so that they can have different recharge times (you can use the knife more than the explosives) and to prevent the use of one from penalizing the other. Since the explosive is a weapon, it may even have resource costs. 8)

Finally, the techtree needs a resource update. Any ideas that won't break the AI?

Oh, and thanks for making the google doc, John.
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wyvern

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1053 on: 27 July 2011, 00:05:30 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks. Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1054 on: 27 July 2011, 03:54:04 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks.
But these elite dogs could cost thousands of dollars and for a dog that can detect and attack like we described generally takes two years or so.

Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.
Except that we're talking about a full war here, not just a peacekeeping mission with not even 5% of an army there. If all NATO forces suddenly decided to place their full armies in Aghanistan, they'd massively outnumber the Taliban. Same thing here, except we aren't talking about a couple countries, but most of the world's countries, all part of the UN and all willing to participate fully to take down the Brotherhood, which has a number of loyal fanatics, but nowhere near as many soldiers as the UNATF. People are basically good, and the numbers of good outnumber the bad, here. I mean, in this utopia; China, India, North America, and the European Union contain about 75% of the world's population alone. Yes, the Brotherhood is rather outnumbered, and if pressed enough, the UNATF could always bring out conscription (dunno about you, but I think just about anyone would agree to fight in a war if the only other option is complete and uttermost destruction).
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Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1055 on: 31 July 2011, 05:29:28 »
I'll be away in a chain of vacations for the next while, so won't be much (if any) progress. I'll try and get on the boards, but... :-[
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Zoythrus

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1056 on: 31 July 2011, 05:44:05 »
won't be much (if any) progress.

wait....there was progress before? :P

Psychedelic_hands

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1057 on: 31 July 2011, 08:06:49 »
won't be much (if any) progress.

wait....there was progress before? :P
Woah, ouch. hahaha.  :P
Have fun on your vacation. Though didn't you say awhile back you were just waiting on 0.4 to release Military 3? Or is that now void because you started work on it again?

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1058 on: 31 July 2011, 08:35:17 »
Everybody is either busy...or on vacation.

(OK, so maybe this doesn't really fit Omega, but I had to put in a XKCD. :P)

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1059 on: 1 August 2011, 05:08:42 »
won't be much (if any) progress.

wait....there was progress before? :P
Well, it was going along pretty slowly, but steadily. I'll be honest, very busy with other stuff at the moment, and my time is largely divided between work (full time in the summer) and a large pile of games and movies I was hoping to play and see this summer (sadly, I realize I will likely not have time to do it all), but sooner or later, I'll reach that point where I go "hey, let's go work on Apocalyptic Dawn again".

Though didn't you say awhile back you were just waiting on 0.4 to release Military 3? Or is that now void because you started work on it again?
A while back, the "original" version of Military 3 was mostly done, but had to do a large number of things that needed 0.4's features, so was waiting for its release, but then I decided to totally redo how UNATF works to (1) bring it up to snuff in quality, (2) make it more "different" from other mods, and (3) make it a formidable foe for the Brotherhood. When this change was decided, I scrapped the previous version and began working on this major revision instead, and 0.4 will almost definitely be released before I finish, at the rate I'm going (and I certainly hope MG's new projectile changes are available by then too, as I'm purposely saving the particles for last in hopes of redoing many, especially the nukes, and the Brotherhood will need almost require the projectile changes or we'll have to do some rethinking (and I really like some of the ideas which would use these changes!).

It should be noted this isn't as minor of a change as it would appear. I'm redoing all the XMLs from scratch, rethinking how they work, rebalancing, and the like. As well, very few models will be kept (the lab will be, as will the base humanoid models, though they'll be reanimated), since, to be blunt, the buildings sucked. I need new ideas, though, so if anyone has anything in their mind about how any of the buildings could look, please, feel free to describe it or post concept art, inspiration, etc. It would be a great help. I'll be keeping a closer eye at the real life versions of most of the units, to try and make them at least a fair resemblance to the real versions. You've seen a teaser of the icons, which have also been revamped, and, simply put, there's a lot more icons now, since many things that shared icons before (attacks) will now have their own. I hope that multiple loading screens will be available by the time it's ready for release, so hope to create some more later (the current loading screen must be redone, and I want to remake the logo too). I also want to redo all the sounds and give some of the units that didn't have them some. Also should be noted that if anyone wants to translate the mod (I will have a 100% complete base translation available once the mod is done), please, contact me and I'll send you a copy of the language before I release. In short, the mod is almost being rebuilt from the ground up, and it's going to take a while, and I am not working on it nearly as much as I should be :-[.

Everybody is either busy...or on vacation.

(OK, so maybe this doesn't really fit Omega, but I had to put in a XKCD. :P)
I'd say mines the other way around, too much work! I'm not giving up on the mod, though, but do expect it to take...a while. Most development is in "spurts".
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Mr War

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1060 on: 1 August 2011, 11:32:29 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks. Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.
Agree your historical point but I thought that tactic was generally regarded a disaster and the 300 tanks destroyed figure is very much propaganda,. Pretty good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

wyvern

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1061 on: 1 August 2011, 13:21:15 »
300 is the official amount by most books/sources, though its still a massive failure considering the thousands deployed. Also, that article says iraqi insurgents tried it along with bomb donkeys to attack US troops

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1062 on: 1 August 2011, 18:36:33 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks. Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.
Agree your historical point but I thought that tactic was generally regarded a disaster and the 300 tanks destroyed figure is very much propaganda,. Pretty good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog
Gotta agree with Mr War here, after reading that article, I almost laughed at the sheer stupidity and failure of the concept... Or would have, if it wasn't so cruel.

Although the original dog training routine was to leave the bomb and retreat so that the bomb would be detonated by the timer, this routine failed and was replaced by an impact detonation procedure which killed the dog in the process. The U.S. military trained anti-tank dogs in 1943 for use against fortifications, but never deployed them. Dogs strapped with explosives were unsuccessfully used by Iraqi insurgents in 2005.
The keywords there are "failed" and "unsuccessfully".
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Zoythrus

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1063 on: 2 August 2011, 05:34:01 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks. Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.
Agree your historical point but I thought that tactic was generally regarded a disaster and the 300 tanks destroyed figure is very much propaganda,. Pretty good info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog
Gotta agree with Mr War here, after reading that article, I almost laughed at the sheer stupidity and failure of the concept... Or would have, if it wasn't so cruel.

Although the original dog training routine was to leave the bomb and retreat so that the bomb would be detonated by the timer, this routine failed and was replaced by an impact detonation procedure which killed the dog in the process. The U.S. military trained anti-tank dogs in 1943 for use against fortifications, but never deployed them. Dogs strapped with explosives were unsuccessfully used by Iraqi insurgents in 2005.
The keywords there are "failed" and "unsuccessfully".
Wyvern, i think i speak for everyone when i say "we're not blowing up any dogs!"
dude, it's cruel, inhumane, and would make most of us cry....

Mr War

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1064 on: 2 August 2011, 06:12:30 »
Well I think both Russia and USA have at least until recently trained dolphins to blow up ships. Dolphins look like they are smiling, how cute ..... Boom

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1065 on: 2 August 2011, 18:28:42 »
Well I think both Russia and USA have at least until recently trained dolphins to blow up ships. Dolphins look like they are smiling, how cute ..... Boom
The keyword is "until recently". I think there's a pretty good reason why they stopped...

Plus, this is 20 years in the future, in the age of guided missiles, which have advanced a lot in those odd years.
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wyvern

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1066 on: 2 August 2011, 19:31:36 »
Training bomb dogs wasn't as hard as you think, the ruskies had thousands of them in service up to 1942-3 and succeeded in destroying a couple hundred german tanks.
But these elite dogs could cost thousands of dollars and for a dog that can detect and attack like we described generally takes two years or so.

Plus militia is always gonna outnumber a proper army, which is what the UNATF is so the militia spams to make up for their training deficit.
Except that we're talking about a full war here, not just a peacekeeping mission with not even 5% of an army there. If all NATO forces suddenly decided to place their full armies in Aghanistan, they'd massively outnumber the Taliban. Same thing here, except we aren't talking about a couple countries, but most of the world's countries, all part of the UN and all willing to participate fully to take down the Brotherhood, which has a number of loyal fanatics, but nowhere near as many soldiers as the UNATF. People are basically good, and the numbers of good outnumber the bad, here. I mean, in this utopia; China, India, North America, and the European Union contain about 75% of the world's population alone. Yes, the Brotherhood is rather outnumbered, and if pressed enough, the UNATF could always bring out conscription (dunno about you, but I think just about anyone would agree to fight in a war if the only other option is complete and uttermost destruction).
Forgot to mention this but pulling off conscription in America or the USA wouldn't work, imagine the demonstrations, another Vietnam

Mr War

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1067 on: 2 August 2011, 19:51:46 »
The keyword is "until recently". I think there's a pretty good reason why they stopped...
Money.

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1068 on: 3 August 2011, 00:47:51 »
Forgot to mention this but pulling off conscription in America or the USA wouldn't work, imagine the demonstrations, another Vietnam
Normally, no, but if the "other side" was dangerous enough to kill everyone and had the (lack of) morality to do so, I'd imagine people would be more supportive. USA has generally been "out of danger" for most wars, so doesn't really know what it's like to have no other choice. I mean, first world war, they only joined because a ship with American passengers, nowhere even near their country, was sunk. They were never attacked on home soil. World War II, they joined after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, which was an unexpected loss for the US, but hardly anywhere near as bad as what most European countries suffered. Notice after the events of Pearl Harbor, American opinions shifted from isolation to support for the war. Same thing after the events of 9/11. The bottom line: unless you feel your in direct danger, you're not very supportive. In this scenario, we have a cult who's willing, capable, and able to directly attack the US. Think 9/11 in every city. Think 9/11 every day.

Yes, I think in such a situation, even America would support it. As for Europe, several countries there still have conscription.
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wyvern

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1069 on: 3 August 2011, 01:33:57 »
Army quality is in question as well, not to mention the small size of non conscripting nations. Maybe mercenaries should be a unit for the brotherhood. Also, the USA entered WWI because of a possibly doctored telegram from germany asking Mexico to join the war and when victorious they would gain portions of the USA. Its still a possibility that the telegram was faked by the brits, who gave it to he Americans.

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1070 on: 3 August 2011, 01:48:36 »
Its still a possibility that the telegram was faked by the brits, who gave it to he Americans.
I don't recall ever hearing any skepticism about the Zimmermann Telegram before... That's offtopic, though. At any rate, the story is as it is, it takes place in the future specifically so that we don't have to worry about the small inaccuracies. In 2032, we can poke fun at it, ok? For now, well, it's just a game.
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will

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1071 on: 3 August 2011, 07:49:35 »
Where does the believe that the zimmermann telegram was faked come from?  Need to back up such statements with sources!

Zoythrus

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1072 on: 3 August 2011, 15:52:40 »
Where does the believe that the zimmermann telegram was faked come from?  Need to back up such statements with sources!
pics or it didnt happen ;)

wyvern

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1073 on: 3 August 2011, 18:24:01 »
Pics could be a problem but I'll see if I can find the sources where I read it, in 1917 Britain was desperate for help against U-boats and the telegram conveniently gave them America as a military ally, not just for economic aid. Either way, its only been speculated, not proven a fact. Its especially a sentiment in Eastern Europe so Czech books occasionally mention it
Edit: heres a wikipedia link, it doesn't say the brits doctored it and I personally think/hope they didn't....but considering how much they BS'd and lied to the americans about how and where they got it I'd say it certainly doesn't rule out the possibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_telegram
« Last Edit: 3 August 2011, 18:41:39 by Wyvern »

Omega

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Re: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)
« Reply #1074 on: 3 August 2011, 18:43:14 »
Off topic ends here, or I bring out the "delete post" stick!

The bottom line is the AD story is perfectly fine as it is.

EDIT: Ooh, fire! Down goes Zoy's post count by one.
« Last Edit: 4 August 2011, 05:20:31 by Omega »
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