Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)

[John.d.h]

It just occured to me with the discussion of the Technical and Battle Wagon, that maybe a lot of the cult's vehicles rely on transported infantry for their firepower.  This would make them extremely versatile in that you could change a vehicle from anti-infantry to anti-vehicle, or any other role, as long as you have troops to pack into it.

i think that all infectable infantry (all except the elites) need a zombified model/texture. if you zombify a shotgunner, he's going to be a zombified shotgunner, not some random zombie.

Do you have any idea how much extra work that would be, or how friggin' huge the download would be with all the extra textures and g3d files?

also, what about an anti-air defense? and will they have aircraft? im thinking maybe a converted crop duster that drops various toxins as their only aircraft. and for an anti-air defense, maybe a flak turret?

The only aircraft that would make sense to me for guerilla warfare would be something like an autogyro.  They're small and light, you can take them anywhere, with no need for an airstrip, and you can build one out of junk.  Fewer moving parts = more reliable and cheaper to maintain.  This makes it a good scout craft for the underdog.

This one is made out of scrap metal and a Subaru car engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFatd2K_ii4
It's also a two-seater, which means you can have a pilot and a dude with a rocket launcher or machine gun.

[Zoythrus]

It just occured to me with the discussion of the Technical and Battle Wagon, that maybe a lot of the cult's vehicles rely on transported infantry for their firepower.  This would make them extremely versatile in that you could change a vehicle from anti-infantry to anti-vehicle, or any other role, as long as you have troops to pack into it.

i think that all infectable infantry (all except the elites) need a zombified model/texture. if you zombify a shotgunner, he's going to be a zombified shotgunner, not some random zombie.

Do you have any idea how much extra work that would be, or how friggin' huge the download would be with all the extra textures and g3d files?

also, what about an anti-air defense? and will they have aircraft? im thinking maybe a converted crop duster that drops various toxins as their only aircraft. and for an anti-air defense, maybe a flak turret?

The only aircraft that would make sense to me for guerilla warfare would be something like an autogyro.  They're small and light, you can take them anywhere, with no need for an airstrip, and you can build one out of junk.  Fewer moving parts = more reliable and cheaper to maintain.  This makes it a good scout craft for the underdog.

This one is made out of scrap metal and a Subaru car engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFatd2K_ii4
It's also a two-seater, which means you can have a pilot and a dude with a rocket launcher or machine gun.

ok, the whole zombified thing was far-fetched....i will admit that.

i like the gyrocopter idea, only you cant make it show it's passenger. it'd be hard to know who's in it.

[John.d.h]

i like the gyrocopter idea, only you cant make it show it's passenger. it'd be hard to know who's in it.

I wouldn't object to the gunner being a part of the unit, rather than a passenger.  Otherwise, you'd have to have some kind of enclosure around the machine, which would kinda kill the idea of it being some scratch-built contraption made out of old motorcycle parts.

Ok, it's final, zombies are a regular unit.

I still think making them Glestimals with two or three varieties would be best.  Don't let Zoy's over-ambition get to you.   That fits so much better with the zombie apocalypse where they're roaming around the ruins of a bombed-out city looking for brains.  It also makes them basically mindless, uncontrollable killing machines, which is exactly what they should be IMO.  In fact, until/unless we get engine support for unit conversion, it would probably be better to make zombification a scenario-only Lua event (if possible), or not even show it.  In this case, the player is in the situation where the outbreak has already happened.

[Zoythrus]

the copter will have to have a covering of some sort (they may be cultists, but they're not stupid).

and about the zombies, right now they'll have to be scenario only. once silnarm gets capturing going, though, we can finally have it the way it should be...

question: do cultists eat food? i mean, will they use food like the military does? maybe "junk"?

and we should just call them "The Cult." i mean, if the Military is known as "The Military," we could just go with a generic name.

[John.d.h]

Do we have a tech tree layout of Military lying around somewhere?  It would be easier to think of units if I know what they're up against.  Also, the links on the OP are broken.

the copter will have to have a covering of some sort (they may be cultists, but they're not stupid).

I don't think it's really necessary if it's just a light scout craft not meant to engage in combat.  Maybe have two versions, one with an open cockpit that is faster and cheaper but unarmored, and one with a sturdy case and room for a gun-toting passenger.

[Zoythrus]

the copter will have to have a covering of some sort (they may be cultists, but they're not stupid).

I don't think it's really necessary if it's just a light scout craft not meant to engage in combat.  Maybe have two versions, one with an open cockpit that is faster and cheaper but unarmored, and one with a sturdy case and room for a gun-toting passenger.

i like this.

should they have a war priest? a guy with a puny handgun who buffs dudes around him (like the medic, only he doesnt heal). also, i think that all units should slowly regenerate (i dont know if they do already, im just saying)

[wyvern]

What do you mean, its obviously safer, but you have limited vision which means you can't aim/shoot as well or walk as fast.

If you know your enemy is going to be deploy biological weapons, wouldn't you put your gas mask on ahead of time, rather than stopping to put it on while you're getting shot at?  Plus, morphing your units back and forth would be a hassle and would require twice as many g3d files for that unit.

you don't always know but think about ww1 noone wore gas masks 24/7 despite the threat of gas attack.

[Zoythrus]

What do you mean, its obviously safer, but you have limited vision which means you can't aim/shoot as well or walk as fast.

If you know your enemy is going to be deploy biological weapons, wouldn't you put your gas mask on ahead of time, rather than stopping to put it on while you're getting shot at?  Plus, morphing your units back and forth would be a hassle and would require twice as many g3d files for that unit.

you don't always know but think about ww1 noone wore gas masks 24/7 despite the threat of gas attack.

this is 120 years after WW1, i think that they have learned by now to wear their masks. and with comfort technology, they can wear their masks 24/7.

just go with it, Wyvern

[John.d.h]

Acceptable breaks from reality, in favor of not being a pain in the ass to implement and actually use.

[wyvern]

What do you mean, its obviously safer, but you have limited vision which means you can't aim/shoot as well or walk as fast.

If you know your enemy is going to be deploy biological weapons, wouldn't you put your gas mask on ahead of time, rather than stopping to put it on while you're getting shot at?  Plus, morphing your units back and forth would be a hassle and would require twice as many g3d files for that unit.

you don't always know but think about ww1 noone wore gas masks 24/7 despite the threat of gas attack.

this is 120 years after WW1, i think that they have learned by now to wear their masks. and with comfort technology, they can wear their masks 24/7.

just go with it, Wyvern

Okay, sure, call me a realistic simulation freak.

[Omega]

There's a map of the military faction in the read me (docs folder). It's slightly broken though, as I'm missing one arrow in it, but it should be obvious where it goes. Of course, it's slightly outdated since there's also the APC, Lab, and Shotgunner units making a premier in version 3.

Lua only zombies? What's the fun in that? If they can't be used by the player, that's simply no fun . What I'm thinking is that the zombies would be "released" from experimental tanks, prisons, etc etc. The biggest problem with them being Glestimals really, is just the complexity, and the possibility of me completing this before such a feature is implemented (I've heard nothing of said feature).

question: do cultists eat food? i mean, will they use food like the military does? maybe "junk"?

Well, we can assume that humans eat food, future or not (because eating a "meal pill" is disgusting), so yes, it will still be the food resource.

and we should just call them "The Cult." i mean, if the Military is known as "The Military," we could just go with a generic name.

Weeeeeeeeeell... Military was simply called military because it was generic. It didn't really have any real back story, and was the only faction in it's techtree. It may need a rename when the opposing cult is released (baring in mind that in this distant future, the world's forces are joined in one large task force, so it's no one government, but a coalition of Military forces opposing the "cult"). All names are temporary working names of course. In fact, the entire techtree may need a rename to fit said story...

[Zoythrus]

the military should be called the UNTF (United Nations Task Force), while the cult should be called "The Brethren of the Circle"

huh?

[Gabbe]

UNTF = http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UNTF
TBC   = http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=The+Brethren+of+the+Circle/http://www.google.no/#hl=no&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=792&q=tbc&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=c9186af0dd7e064a uncertain, well check for both then

[Omega]

UNTF = http://lmgtfy.com/?q=UNTF
TBC   = http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=The+Brethren+of+the+Circle/http://www.google.no/#hl=no&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=792&q=tbc&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=c9186af0dd7e064a uncertain, well check for both then

Your point? Just because different organizations already exist under the same acronym doesn't mean we can't use it too. Acronyms can stand for multiple things, so safe from the EVILS of copyright.

[Zoythrus]

so, will those names work?

[Omega]

so, will those names work?

I won't decide on names until it's ready to be released.

[Omega]

Hmm... With faction logos coming in 0.3.2, I think that Military should definitely have one! I'm accepting, ideas, concepts, and of course, anyone who wants to actually make the logo, please go ahead.


On other notes, which ways will Military be released? I'm having trouble thinking of how to make a linux version, thanks to the fact the config dir is specified in the shortcut (I wants it in the INI!)...

There will for sure be the following releases:
-Addon package (cross platform. Untested, but I anticipate no problems. Just place in the addons folder and you're good to go. Biggest disadvantage is some unneccessary files and the fact that magitech remains there (plus, we can assume people will want this as a new install, since it changes so many core files).
-Windows Installer (Windows only, since I use windows, I can easily handle this. Has the advantage of filesize and ease of use, as well as a few extras such as start menu links. I plan to add more customization options).
-7z package (cross platform? I want to include both linux and windows binaries, but I don't know how to make a linux shortcut that will be able to set the config dir...)

Does anyone know how to make a linux shortcut or whatever so that the config dir can be set (which is a program parameter). I will add a request for config dir ini settings in the mean time...

[Zoythrus]

about the logo, the Military (who should be called the "United Nations' Strike Force"/UNSF) should have a shark (because sharks are cool)

now, some more ideas:
what's the point of the Flamethrower? i think the unit sucks, and so does the anim. that's why i came up with the idea of giving him to the Cult instead. now, who would fill that space? an exo-suit! the exo-suit would normally be unarmed, but you would be able to put an infantry unit into it, and it would boost the range/damage of the weapon. it would also have high armor, making infantry deadlier; also makes them immune to chemicals. lastly, the suit would be built from the factory.

so, the Cult and the UNSF would both have two elite units: Combine soldier dude and the mutated soldier for the Cult and the Spec ops and exo-suit for the UNSF

would this work for you, omega?

[wyvern]

about the logo, the Military (who should be called the "United Nations' Strike Force"/UNSF) should have a shark (because sharks are cool)

now, some more ideas:
what's the point of the Flamethrower? i think the unit sucks, and so does the anim. that's why i came up with the idea of giving him to the Cult instead. now, who would fill that space? an exo-suit! the exo-suit would normally be unarmed, but you would be able to put an infantry unit into it, and it would boost the range/damage of the weapon. it would also have high armor, making infantry deadlier; also makes them immune to chemicals. lastly, the suit would be built from the factory.

so, the Cult and the UNSF would both have two elite units: Combine soldier dude and the mutated soldier for the Cult and the Spec ops and exo-suit for the UNSF

would this work for you, omega?

I like the flamethrower where it is and I imagine the cult to be a bunch of terrorists with AK-47's, RPGs and so on, military could have a different rocket launcher though

[Zoythrus]

about the logo, the Military (who should be called the "United Nations' Strike Force"/UNSF) should have a shark (because sharks are cool)

now, some more ideas:
what's the point of the Flamethrower? i think the unit sucks, and so does the anim. that's why i came up with the idea of giving him to the Cult instead. now, who would fill that space? an exo-suit! the exo-suit would normally be unarmed, but you would be able to put an infantry unit into it, and it would boost the range/damage of the weapon. it would also have high armor, making infantry deadlier; also makes them immune to chemicals. lastly, the suit would be built from the factory.

so, the Cult and the UNSF would both have two elite units: Combine soldier dude and the mutated soldier for the Cult and the Spec ops and exo-suit for the UNSF

would this work for you, omega?

I like the flamethrower where it is and I imagine the cult to be a bunch of terrorists with AK-47's, RPGs and so on, military could have a different rocket launcher though

well, the Cult is kinda based around chemical warfare, so maybe instead of a flamer, maybe a toxin sprayer?

[John.d.h]

After some more discussion with Zoythrus on IRC, here's some of what we came up with for the Cult's basic layout, plus a few things I thought of while typing it up.  All names are place-holders.

Infantry - the basic soldier of the cult, armed with an AK-47, cheap and expendable
Rocket - rebel with a rocket launcher, anti-tank and anti-air
Dog - fast attack unit, detector

Lab
Launcher - guy with a grenade launcher, fires homemade napalm (anti-building) and gas grenades (anti-personnel)
Commando - elite mutant soldier with chamelon skin, SMG attack, blade attack allows him to stay cloaked, maybe a sabotage bomb
Shock trooper - Combine soldier analog, tough and mean, possible cyborg (resistant to bullets, weak to electricity)

Salvage yard
Technical - truck with a machine gunner in the bed, room for one passenger to fire out the window
Battle bus - armored van, firing ports for several passengers, may or may not have an attack of its own
Autogyro - flying junkyard contraption, scout vehicle, lightly armed (if at all), unarmored and open to the elements
Gungyro - upgraded gyro with a light armored shell and room for a passenger or two to shoot out of, maybe has a light machine gun of its own
Airboat - light naval transport

We also thought the UNSF needs a detector unit and figured a UAV would fit the bill.  Like the real-life Predator, it would be unarmed, but an upgrade could fit it with anti-vehicle rockets.  It could also be stealthy, possibly pending an upgrade.

[Omega]

An unarmed UAV? No thank you... Missile armed UAV that can kamikaze? That sounds more fun.

Thanks for all the ideas John. Though, I think some of the units should be renamed because they share names with units in Military. Namely, the infantry and lab.

(Keep the ideas coming!)


Elite units... That works for me, but don't expect them until the cult is implemented (ie: not in this current release).


The flamethrower's attacking animation has been changed in v3. It looks MUCH better now. It's hardly a useless unit though, as it's attack is now even faster, and has a good chance of causing burns, which can deal damage after the initial attack. Plus, it affects an area, and in one test, attacking a building caused several privates to attempt to repair it, who quickly dropped dead without even targeting them, just because of that Area of Effect.

In addition, the Flamethrower has a second attack you may have not have noticed. It uses EP, so can't be used for long, but deals even more damage, and in v3, has a stronger burn that IS lethal and will kill most infantry units that are not healed by a medic (the medic was always useful, consider it even more so now).

[Zoythrus]

i think that being a quasi-religious cult, they need a unit analogous to the medic, and i call him the Cleric.

the cleric would have an emanation that boosts attack power and defense, but doesnt heal, nor does he have an attack himself.

[John.d.h]

An unarmed UAV? No thank you... Missile armed UAV that can kamikaze? That sounds more fun.

Heh... I can't argue with that.

Thanks for all the ideas John. Though, I think some of the units should be renamed because they share names with units in Military. Namely, the infantry and lab.

Yeah, I didn't bother trying to come up with cool names yet.  Those are placeholders.

This might be more efficient if we had a list of the units that (will) exist in Military and a general idea of what they do, so I know what to match these guys up against, along with a ballpark figure of how many units we're talking about.

i think that being a quasi-religious cult, they need a unit analogous to the medic, and i call him the Cleric.

the cleric would have an emanation that boosts attack power and defense, but doesnt heal, nor does he have an attack himself.

I worry about the practicality of grouping a non-attacking unit in with your troops.  It would add some amount of micro, and that's just not all that fun (to me, anyway).  I agree that we do need to add some more dogmatic units to fit with the religious tone of the faction.

[Omega]

i think that being a quasi-religious cult, they need a unit analogous to the medic, and i call him the Cleric.

the cleric would have an emanation that boosts attack power and defense, but doesnt heal, nor does he have an attack himself.

I worry about the practicality of grouping a non-attacking unit in with your troops.  It would add some amount of micro, and that's just not all that fun (to me, anyway).  I agree that we do need to add some more dogmatic units to fit with the religious tone of the faction.

Agreed. I dislike having non attacking units that should be with attacking units. He doesn't have to be strong, but an attack will be necessary if you want them to accompany an attack.

This might be more efficient if we had a list of the units that (will) exist in Military and a general idea of what they do, so I know what to match these guys up against, along with a ballpark figure of how many units we're talking about.

The unit's in Military at the moment are the same as before, plus there is also a lab, shotgunner, APC, and Transport Ship. Barring an "elite unit", military probably won't get any more changes other than possible name changes to units to make them better fit in with the theme. I still have a bit of work to do, but it shouldn't be *too* long before version 3 can be released, then we can actually even start planning the "cult".