Author Topic: Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)  (Read 277776 times)

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #925 on: 21 June 2011, 06:42:19 »
In my opinion, the UAV is much more fitting for the UN than the Cult.  What does the cult care if they lose a pilot when their aircraft gets shot down?  It's all in the name of [cause /].  Plus, that's advanced military technology that I wouldn't really expect them to have access to.  The UN, on the other hand, would be all about the UAVs.  The US sure uses them extensively.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #926 on: 21 June 2011, 06:49:31 »
i will have to disagree with the idea of the sniper not having a detector. the concept that he can only be found when attacking is the exact opposite of what a sniper is trained to do. i think he should uncloak only when found, not shooting (quite counter-productive if you think of it).

and, when did the Cult get UAV's? seems too high-tech and "clean" for them. they wouldnt have the resources to acquire such advanced technology. i thought we agreed that they got Attack Dogs that served the same function (land unit detection, and that means snipers too).

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #927 on: 21 June 2011, 06:55:37 »
Didn't we have an old list of ideas we came up with somewhere?  I seem to remember mapping out most of the Cult's tech tree.

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #928 on: 21 June 2011, 14:01:00 »
Possibly, I'm not really sure though and that was before the new version came out I think? Either way the UAV is way too much for the cult, though I think they could get a refurbished "militarized" Cessna or piper cub spotter plane. I think the cult should be more based on rebels/terrorists of today and whacko made up weapons compared to the UNATF which would have the technology of today.

I agree about your sniper rifle idea since this does, after all, take place 10-20 years from now.

About the flame rocket, the RPO's the soviet version and the M202's what the americans had, I saw a picture of a truck based weapon somewhere though, I'll see if I can find it again.

I agree about the nest thing, Its just that the current gunner looks very unrealistic and I've seen very few, if any, modern vehicles, let alone troops with miniguns that are not ship/aircraft mounted.

With the Cult I'd suggest cheap early on weapons like punji sticks, one shot crossbow traps, rebels with bolt action rifles(upgradeable to AK's/RPG's for a price) and so on. This would then slowly advance to more modern and the illegal technology in late game. With vehicles, the technical is definitely one of them, possibly with a recoilless gun upgrade to make it dangerous to light armor. I'd also make something like stolen tech as resources, which allows you to produce(to a limited degree) some captured vehicles like APC's and Humvees with various slogans/markings on them.

Otherwise, i know the ideas were a lot but as I said, they're just ideas that don't have to be used



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOS-1
Found both of the things I was looking for, heres precision fire rockets on a tank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-30_Smerch
and heres the Smerch aka the rockets on a truck
otherwise, if you want lots of various ideas, look through thermobaric weapons on wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon
ok, that'll be all for now

Edit by Omega: Double post merge
« Last Edit: 21 June 2011, 15:13:41 by Omega »

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #929 on: 21 June 2011, 15:28:55 »
Didn't we have an old list of ideas we came up with somewhere?  I seem to remember mapping out most of the Cult's tech tree.

yes, yes we did, look about 10 pages back (i think)

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #930 on: 21 June 2011, 15:37:07 »
Ok, Military can get the UAV, but the cult I had in mind is a well funded terrorist organization which has strong technology and no moral limitation, and will happily use chemical, radiational, and biological weapons. In this case here, they would also have some type of "zombie" biological agent, which is their biggest threat. Let's not get too into the cult though now, as the focus is to perfect the UNATF first.

So, UAV, what kind, what name, what capabilities? Doing some research, the MQ-1C Grey Eagle, seems like the best choice. It can drop bombs and fire hellfire missiles.

I agree about the nest thing, Its just that the current gunner looks very unrealistic and I've seen very few, if any, modern vehicles, let alone troops with miniguns that are not ship/aircraft mounted.
Ok, what to use then exactly?

I'm thinking I'll remove the flame thrower completely and give one of the weapon classes an RPO option.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #931 on: 21 June 2011, 15:51:42 »
Quote
Doing some research, the MQ-1C Grey Eagle, seems like the best choice. It can drop bombs and fire hellfire missiles.
Sounds good :thumbup:

For the mg I'd use the M2 .50cal or the M249, or the FN MAG.

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #932 on: 21 June 2011, 17:22:52 »
well, why not have an upgradeable defense system? like, when you built an MG turret, it would start out similarly to what it is now. but as your tech level increases, you can morph that gun into either a mounted GAU-8 Avenger or Patriot missile system (for anti-inf/tanks and aircraft respectively). then, late game, you can upgrade those defenses into even stronger versions of themselves (so the Avenger turret can become a stronger anti-inf/tank only, maybe lasers?). somewhat OT: i assume that these turrets are unmanned, sentry turrets (so that you cant just snipe/poison the operator).

about the Grey Eagle, it should only fire Hellfire missiles for an anti-tank role. so, you have the Comanche for anti-inf, Eagle for anti-tank, and B-2 Spirit for anti-structure. (or we could all have UAV versions of this stuff, because the UNATF is smart enough to keep their pilots in an underground bunker somewhere, and also it would make the aircraft smaller and better looking)

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #933 on: 21 June 2011, 17:44:44 »
well, why not have an upgradeable defense system? like, when you built an MG turret, it would start out similarly to what it is now. but as your tech level increases, you can morph that gun into either a mounted GAU-8 Avenger or Patriot missile system (for anti-inf/tanks and aircraft respectively). then, late game, you can upgrade those defenses into even stronger versions of themselves (so the Avenger turret can become a stronger anti-inf/tank only, maybe lasers?). somewhat OT: i assume that these turrets are unmanned, sentry turrets (so that you cant just snipe/poison the operator).

about the Grey Eagle, it should only fire Hellfire missiles for an anti-tank role. so, you have the Comanche for anti-inf, Eagle for anti-tank, and B-2 Spirit for anti-structure. (or we could all have UAV versions of this stuff, because the UNATF is smart enough to keep their pilots in an underground bunker somewhere, and also it would make the aircraft smaller and better looking)

i disagree with making all the stuff UAV but agree with the defense tiers, though not necessarily lasers

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #934 on: 21 June 2011, 17:54:04 »
well, why not have an upgradeable defense system? like, when you built an MG turret, it would start out similarly to what it is now. but as your tech level increases, you can morph that gun into either a mounted GAU-8 Avenger or Patriot missile system (for anti-inf/tanks and aircraft respectively). then, late game, you can upgrade those defenses into even stronger versions of themselves (so the Avenger turret can become a stronger anti-inf/tank only, maybe lasers?). somewhat OT: i assume that these turrets are unmanned, sentry turrets (so that you cant just snipe/poison the operator).

about the Grey Eagle, it should only fire Hellfire missiles for an anti-tank role. so, you have the Comanche for anti-inf, Eagle for anti-tank, and B-2 Spirit for anti-structure. (or we could all have UAV versions of this stuff, because the UNATF is smart enough to keep their pilots in an underground bunker somewhere, and also it would make the aircraft smaller and better looking)

i disagree with making all the stuff UAV but agree with the defense tiers, though not necessarily lasers

why do you disagree with making it all UAV? that's the way that aircraft are evolving, and if the mod is 10 years in the future, it just makes sense.

you keep forgetting that this is supposed to be a somewhat futuristic game (but realistically futuristic, of course). since we have weak laser tech now, it would makes sense if in 10 years lasers are much more advanced (maybe a laser trooper, Omega?).

here's an idea that i posted a while ago - a robotic trooper (instead of an exo-suit). Seeing as the UNATF are dedicated to using high-tech stuff, a robo-trooper just sounds like it'd fit. it would be an elite unit (immunity to toxins) and would be produced from a factory, but still be counted as inf (maybe this should have a laser, like a weaker version of the laser turret). about the immunity to toxins, what would set it apart from all other "elite" units (Spec Ops, Sniper, Commando, Combine soldier guy) is that instead of being resistant to the lasting effects of toxins as well as taking much less damage from toxic attacks, the robotic soldier would be fully and completely immune to toxins. that means all toxic attacks do 0 damage - always. now, i know that 0 damage is impossible right now, but it wont be eventually.
« Last Edit: 21 June 2011, 18:04:51 by Zoythrus »

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #935 on: 21 June 2011, 23:49:06 »
I think I would just add a single UAV, keeping the helicopter (I wonder how well an air unit would work as a transport, if at all)

I'm not entirely sure about robots. A bit cheesy, really. As well, I was thinking about redefining the timeline of the faction to about, oh, 20 or so years in the future, based on their technology. If it's too far, these weapons will seem primitive.

Also, the "Military" name is a bit dated. I think the techtree needs a new name. A few possible ideas are "Red Hour", "Operation Apocalypse", "Apocalyptic Dawn", "Mutual Destruction", "Assured Destruction", etc... It should reflect how there will eventually be the opposing cult faction. At any rate, feel free to suggest any name, or comment on one.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #936 on: 21 June 2011, 23:59:35 »
well, about the robots, we could just say that it's highly experimental technology, and ingame would be a late game unit because of it. it would require a bit of research before you can field it. this keeps it from being cheesy (and this robot needs to look cool!)

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #937 on: 22 June 2011, 00:03:46 »
Omega, since it's the 'UNATF', shouldn't they be more specialized? You've got infantry and tanks and basically the standard military stuff... Also, being 20 years in the future, maybe they could use compression guns for the most part? Compression guns would make less sound than normal guns so that would fit in with the high level task force feel I think.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #938 on: 22 June 2011, 01:08:32 »
Also, being 20 years in the future, maybe they could use compression guns for the most part? Compression guns would make less sound than normal guns so that would fit in with the high level task force feel I think.
Would that affect it much though?
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #939 on: 22 June 2011, 01:12:20 »
You could have mine detonation robots, like what they have now adays as a scout vehicle. About UNATF, I always viewed that as our current UN military, which is anything but specialized and downright incompetent at times, especially without US support so I don't think they should be all that specialized.

Edit:
What do you mean by compression gun, air or Co2 gun, compressed bore gun or what

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #940 on: 22 June 2011, 05:53:41 »
Quote
You could have mine detonation robots, like what they have now adays as a scout vehicle. About UNATF, I always viewed that as our current UN military, which is anything but specialized and downright incompetent at times, especially without US support so I don't think they should be all that specialized.

This ain't UNM, this is UNATF(aka Omega's lil section 31). ;) Plus it's 20 years in the future...

Compression.....probably just plain air. :P
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #941 on: 22 June 2011, 06:13:16 »
About UNATF, I always viewed that as our current UN military, which is anything but specialized and downright incompetent at times, especially without US support so I don't think they should be all that specialized.
Well, this is the future. In this future, I applied a few radical changes to the world. The European union is one country, the world uses a single currency, and nearly all countries are a part of the UN. The UN Security Council no longer has veto power, and the UN has been reformed to have more value in peace keeping. Organizations like NATO have been disolved in favor of this UN military. No countries really fight alone any more, the UN decides almost all conflict members will participate in. However, you'll also have to note this is not our main force, but rather the UNATF, a specialized sector of the UN Military which is highly trained and consists of many of the best soldiers from countries around the world, using technology from various member states (thus why a Russian RPO, a German tank, a British gun, and an American Missile Launcher can all co-exist in the same task force).

However, our opposing faction, the cult, does not come from any sole country either. It is a collection of terrorists who do not agree with the increasingly democratic movement of the world, wanting to further their own agenda. Funded by secretive supporters, they have access to comparable weaponry, and worse: they are not limited by the UN's rules, which now outlaw most weapons of mass destruction, barring Nukes, which are the sole remainder for the concept of balancing the few countries that are not UN members, but are now nuclear armed. The cult's scientists, which include some very effective scientists, since most other countries stopped all chemical and biological research programs, have managed to create a neurotoxin which brainwashes victims, turning them into blood thirsty cannibals with no regard for life and no feelings of pain (or anything else for that matter). Essentially, they just started a zombie apocalypse. But why is the cult opposing the rest of the world? They believe that the world has been brainwashed by "western" ideals, and believe the only way to solve this is to destroy the world and start anew. Kill everyone but a few, repopulate the world, and rebuild it their way.

Hopefully that explains the back story well enough. Yes, a lot has happened in these 20 or so years (the year will never be directly mentioned in scenarios now, instead opting for military style timing and dating for determining the "time" into a mission). And yeah, UNATF is really quite like Star Treck's Section 31, but the difference is that it does have rules it has to follow, but those rules are to protect the civilians. After all, the UNATF is the "good guys" while the cult is the "bad guys". Of course, you could play as either (who didn't secretly enjoy the airport scene of MW2 anyway?).

I am personally leaning towards "Apocalyptic Dawn" as the name for the techtree, unless anyone else has better ideas or a reason to oppose.
« Last Edit: 22 June 2011, 06:15:25 by Omega »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #942 on: 22 June 2011, 16:48:46 »
Honestly, I can hardly imagine the UN or NATO being much of a force in 20-30 years or that Russia/China would help in any way, or Europe becoming one country due to all the current problems, I suppose it is a possible future and is after all, up to you to decide

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #943 on: 22 June 2011, 16:56:39 »
Honestly, I can hardly imagine the UN or NATO being much of a force in 20-30 years or that Russia/China would help in any way, or Europe becoming one country due to all the current problems, I suppose it is a possible future and is after all, up to you to decide

It's an alternate universe where the nations get along. happy now, Wyvern?

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #944 on: 22 June 2011, 17:09:36 »
Yep

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #945 on: 22 June 2011, 17:54:41 »
Behold my (somewhat) utopian future.

Radical changes and civilian uprisings have swept communism out of China, North Korea, and Cuba. A more united UN voted to remove the veto power of the UNSC and began the second Vietnam war after a leadership change lead to brutal regime started, prompting UN action to protect the civilians. This expanded and ended in a UN victory, placing democratic governments in Laos and Vietnam. The Afghanistan war effort was eventually abandoned to become a training method, and while the Afghan police have grown in abilities, the middle east is still rather unstable, being the home to several extremist factions, in which some have merged to form our Cult.

Welcome to our backstory. They say technology grows exponentially. So does our society. What was an enemy one day is your friend the next (think, eg, how France and Russia were at war with each other during the Napoleon wars, yet Russia fought on France's side for the beginning of the first world war). No, this is probably not how our world will end up, this is just the wonderful backstory of Apocalyptic Dawn.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #946 on: 23 June 2011, 01:21:06 »
The corrupt European Union is trying to remove NATO and make EU a millitary union aswell, you might want to include this in your background story somehow aswell. And what happened to the nukes in NK?

wciow

  • Behemoth
  • *******
  • Posts: 968
    • View Profile
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #947 on: 23 June 2011, 01:42:20 »
The corrupt European Union is trying to remove NATO and make EU a millitary union aswell, you might want to include this in your background story somehow aswell. And what happened to the nukes in NK?

This is getting slightly off topic but the EU is not trying to remove NATO, almost every european country is a member of NATO. The EU is already a military union with a common military policy and an "army" under the direct control of the european parliment called the European Battle Group. However member states are still allowed to act alone if they want to. If any EU country was actually invaded by a foriegn country then it would lead to all EU nations joining in, but then that was the founding principal of the EU, to stop wars in Europe. I suppose you dont know this stuff because you are from a country that is too pretentious to actually join in with Europe.
Check out my new Goblin faction - https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=9658.0

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #948 on: 23 June 2011, 02:42:04 »
This is just a fantasy back story...

The corrupt European Union is trying to remove NATO and make EU a millitary union aswell, you might want to include this in your background story somehow aswell.
Not here. You forget, there is no NATO any more (read above posts by yours truly). The UN is one of the only governing force, and the EU is part of it, and most certainly not corrupt. In fact, in this story, the EU, since it is all one unified country (and larger than the current EU too), is stronger than USA. In fact, it's the world' biggest superpower. Oh, and yeah, Norway is a part of it.

And what happened to the nukes in NK?
All ours now. Or at, I think they are... By god, I hope none of the cult have got their hands on a nuke... ;) Speaking of nukes, they're used a lot more. The B-2 Spirit can drop a B-83 Nuclear Bomb (just like its real life equivalent). Naturally, it's nowhere near as powerful as our ICBM (the LGM-30G Minuteman) here, as real life explosive power is not copied into the game (otherwise, you'd just have to launch one nuke and you'll destroy both yourself and your foe instantly).

And behold, the techtree map! This isn't necessarily the final version, so please feel free to comment. Please note that the upgrades main purpose is to ensure you can't use the "end game" units at the start of the game, so they don't necessarily make sense (eg: researching cruise missiles 20 years in the future? We've had them for more than that). As well, power is a relative thing. Generally, the later game units are stronger than earlier game units, but if we put in some strengths and weaknesses, such as the Infantry AT4 compared to the Special Op M203, the former is usually weaker, being an infantry class soldier, but against tanks, the effectiveness of the AT4 is unmatched by the M203. Oh, and yes, it is big. It is very big. Don't think we'll add any more to it, though don't think we'll take anything away either. If you got any more bright ideas, focus them towards the cult.



Proper unit descriptions will be in the tool tips so those who don't know their guns aren't left out.


Just a side note because my spidy-senses are tingling, anyone who tries to start a debate on whether or not Norway should be in the EU will have their post removed.

Edit: My spidy-sense is correct. Ninja'd, and a post removed. Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 23 June 2011, 02:45:57 by Omega »
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

Zoythrus

  • Guest
Re: Military Tech Tree
« Reply #949 on: 23 June 2011, 03:13:22 »
so, i see that you didnt go with the turret upgrade system that we discussed...

i have no problem with a howitzer or a mortar, but where's the anti-infantry weapon? it needs some sort of minigun or something, arties are too slow for infantry

 

anything