Apocalyptic Dawn (formerly known as Military)

[Mr War]

Nice icons man


I don't think the mortar should have been dropped, but since you won't be using it, you could have a snipers nest, or an HMG Pit or a dug in tank, or a flak turret(can be used against both ground and air), or a bunker with a machinegun.


Just an idea but the cult "technicals" 4x4s really suites the morphing functionality. Also the libyan conflict shows tactics for them. You could start by requisitioning a 4x4 which starts unsecured and only armed with a rifle. Then you upgrade it into several versions, like:

Recoilless rifle for anti-tank. Turns sideways to fire

Heavy machine gun like ZPU 2. When moving to attack it reverses slowly, when firing it fires over tailgate. Also anti air capable. Lightly armored

Light mlrs for artillery. Fires over side of back

Just a thought

[ElimiNator]

Triple post man!

Yah, icons look cool.

[ultifd]

Not triple post...but they should have different profile images/avatar. 

I agree though, nice icons!

_{Blast I should have read the this post after I read eliminator's rather than just merging them. Sorry to whoever was squished inbetween with the similar avatar? - Omega}

[Gabbe]

Triple post man!

Yah, icons look cool.

Haha they don't have completely equal names but hey, you should take time to notice the difference sometimes... ^^

[Omega]

The mortar was dropped because there wasn't really much difference from the M777 Howitzer. However, the problem with machine gun posts, as we went over in the past, is the rotations. Since it doesn't look like we'll be getting turrets any time soon, the model will have to look good either rotating or not, and with Machine Guns, it's pretty hard to do that realistically.

[wyvern]

that was my post you squished but it doesn't matter, The snipers nest could work though, if it was just a clump of trees from which someone would shoot but they would stay invisible, sort of like the archer in the defense tower for tech. BTW there could be quite a huge difference between the mortar and the howitzer, the howitzer would have bigger range, bigger explosive power and bigger attack, not to mention being better against armor, though not a dedicated AT weapon. The mortar could be slightly mobile, cheaper, and have a far greater rate of fire. Another idea for a defense would be a pillbox, it could solve your, hmg nests are hard to make pretty when they turn troubles, in which you're right, and at the same time would provide a place for infantry to hide and possibly shoot from, sort of like the bunkers in C&C Generals

[Zoythrus]

i can agree with a pillbox, no rotation needed there! now, i still think that the defenses should have an upgrade tree like the one that i had suggested...it'd make gameplay interesting...

[Omega]

that was my post you squished but it doesn't matter

So sorry about that, mate. I should pay more attention. The similar avatars and post below confused me. Well, still readable at least.

The snipers nest could work though, if it was just a clump of trees from which someone would shoot but they would stay invisible, sort of like the archer in the defense tower for tech.

What if the nest looked like an in-tree hunting outpost? Of course, we'd have to take out the trees, as sprouting trees is a bit much, but throw in some hunter style camouflage over this platform so we can't see our snipers and we might be on to something. Take a look at this feature request of mine related to this.

BTW there could be quite a huge difference between the mortar and the howitzer, the howitzer would have bigger range, bigger explosive power and bigger attack, not to mention being better against armor, though not a dedicated AT weapon. The mortar could be slightly mobile, cheaper, and have a far greater rate of fire.

The main issue was that even though there is differences, on the long run, they both ended up being very, very similar. By the way, the M777 Howitzer will have two attacks based on different shells available. One is a SMart 155 shell which will scatter multiple shells down (this will be a tad dependent on multiple projectiles making it into GAE soon, but seeing that Will released a patch for MG, and how similar the particle code is for the two engines, I am hopeful that we'll see it appear in GAE). The other attack is a more simple M712 Copperhead projectile.

Another idea for a defense would be a pillbox, it could solve your, hmg nests are hard to make pretty when they turn troubles, in which you're right, and at the same time would provide a place for infantry to hide and possibly shoot from, sort of like the bunkers in C&C Generals

Oh, yes. I actually had thought about pillbox's before, but the image that was stuck in my mind only had "gun slots" (for the lack of a better term) at the front. A larger, round pillbox with "gun slots" all around might be a nice idea. And the concept of allowing units to garrison in them (aka: load), while allowing them to fire out of it, is a nice idea.

now, i still think that the defenses should have an upgrade tree like the one that i had suggested...it'd make gameplay interesting...

I definitely agree, but the problem is, what do they upgrade to? The pillbox might be able to upgrade to a stronger fortified pillbox able to hold more men, perhaps, but what else really? The SMart projectiles on the M777 Howitzer will need an upgrade to use.

[Gabbe]

that was my post you squished but it doesn't matter

So sorry about that, mate. I should pay more attention. The similar avatars and post below confused me. Well, still readable at least.

Haha The simple fact that you managed to do that AFTER me and UltiFD pointed it out? XD

[Zoythrus]

now, i still think that the defenses should have an upgrade tree like the one that i had suggested...it'd make gameplay interesting...

I definitely agree, but the problem is, what do they upgrade to? The pillbox might be able to upgrade to a stronger fortified pillbox able to hold more men, perhaps, but what else really? The SMart projectiles on the M777 Howitzer will need an upgrade to use.

here's how i see it:
pillbox -> fortified pillbox -> bunker (and the bunker can allow snipers to garrison inside, making it a sniper tower)

mortar -> howitzer -> nuclear howitzer? (the shots would have lasting effects besides more damage)

ADS -> advanced ADS -> an even more advanced ADS? (each level should add a new effect of it's laser. eg. lv1 would slow enemy units, lv2 would do some damage, lv3 could drain EP or something)

flak -> SAM site -> Patriot Missile Defense (with stealth craft-detecting devices!)

what do you think?

[wyvern]

I think a flak turret and rockets should be separate, though I'd love something like the 20mm phalanx AA gun, it should be a anti ground and anti air unit while the SAM could develop into a patriot but would stay in the AA role only

I'm not sure about the ADS but I like your pillbox suggestion. The howitzer development seems a tad unrealistic though I do believe nuclear shell exist, it doesn't seem to fit with the "correct warfare" waged by the future UN.

A radar emplacement could be nice, increasing range of nearby AA and artillery units while increasing sight and stealth detection. An option would be a to make the bunkers go Log Bunker, Bunker and pillbox with the log bunker only having an M249 and a 2man storage, the bunker having a .50cal and a 4 man storage and the pillbox having the ability to shoot a recoilless cannon or a .50cal

I also think tank traps and barbed wire would fit in to this faction

[Zoythrus]

now, Wyvern, im fully aware that you are a fan of full realism in games, and so am i, but you must know that gameplay is also really important. you dont want to overload a player with too many choices! i mean, yes, tank traps, barbed wire, and a slew of different units would be nice, but you have to keep in mind both what's good for gameplay as well as what the engine can handle.

the ideas that i put out there were just for thought and speculation, im saying that you dont have to go with nuclear shells in the howitzer.

(and the ADS is a support turret, designed to assist the other defenses by debuffing enemy units.)

[Omega]

mortar -> howitzer -> nuclear howitzer? (the shots would have lasting effects besides more damage)

The problem is, realistically, a 155mm Howitzer is probably far too small to launch a nuclear warhead.

ADS -> advanced ADS -> an even more advanced ADS? (each level should add a new effect of it's laser. eg. lv1 would slow enemy units, lv2 would do some damage, lv3 could drain EP or something)

Draining EP is a bad idea, since many units depend on it to be able to attack, and draining it would make them helpless. Thinking it over a bit, this could be a one stage weapon that just stops the foe completely (sets attack and move speed to zero) and deals minor damage. By having some defenses have differing numbers of stages, it would make them seem more unique. As well, it wouldn't be buildable till late game, where it would require perhaps one of the tier 3 defensive structures.

flak -> SAM site -> Patriot Missile Defense (with stealth craft-detecting devices!)

"Flak" on wikipedia just redirects to Anti Air weapons in general. Perhaps just SAM site -> Patriot Missile Defense (doesn't have to be three stages).

I also think tank traps and barbed wire would fit in to this faction

I don't really think they'll work well. A looong time ago, I actually did have a mine (granted, there was no stealth then, so it didn't work well against ranged units), and overall, the CPU was stumped and they just didn't work out well. I don't think these will either, since they just make it more complex and there's so many units already.


So to sum up:
Defensive structures

• Pillbox -> Fortified Pillbox -> Bunker (based on what I found, bunkers were generally larger and more important than most pillboxes. Each gets higher defense, a better "mounted" weapon - which we can't see inside the pillbox/bunker - and more unit capacity)
• Mortar -> Howitzer (improved range, damage, and multiple attack types)
• ADS (no upgrades, built late ingame)
• SAM Site -> Patriot Missile Silo (massive damage increase, stealth detection added)

[wyvern]

Tank traps and barb wire doesn't attack it just acts like a wall, so its more of a blocking unit

[ElimiNator]

Or you could have a emanation so when you go into the barbwire your health ticks down.

[Zoythrus]

mortar -> howitzer -> nuclear howitzer? (the shots would have lasting effects besides more damage)

The problem is, realistically, a 155mm Howitzer is probably far too small to launch a nuclear warhead.

mini nuclear warheads, not actual nukes

So to sum up:
Defensive structures

• Pillbox -> Fortified Pillbox -> Bunker (based on what I found, bunkers were generally larger and more important than most pillboxes. Each gets higher defense, a better "mounted" weapon - which we can't see inside the pillbox/bunker - and more unit capacity)
• Mortar -> Howitzer (improved range, damage, and multiple attack types)
• ADS (no upgrades, built late ingame)
• SAM Site -> Patriot Missile Silo (massive damage increase, stealth detection added)

i still think that the ADS should receive a lv2 version, but i'll see how this works out.

[wyvern]

Problem is that at such size, your mini nuclear warhead would do less damage then a conventional round.

[Zoythrus]

the ideas that i put out there were just for thought and speculation, im saying that you dont have to go with nuclear shells in the howitzer.

[will]

Man-portable nukes exist, and were often deployed in the 70s.

If you want realism, a single such round would wipe the whole map.

And McAurther is an interesting story of a general on UN mandate who threatened to use nukes.

[Omega]

If you want realism, a single such round would wipe the whole map.

True... And several times over, which is why things are totally not to scale. I mean, a howitzer can launch over 20 kilometers... And a to-scale transport ship would be at least a size 200, bigger than your average map. So, yeah, everything's mass scaled. There's already two nukes for UNATF anyway, they have their ICBM minuteman, which can hit anywhere on the map, and the B83 bombs dropped by the B-2 Spirit, which are considerably smaller nukes, and require the B-2 Spirit to deliver them... This same B-2 also can drop MK-82 bombs as its primary weapon and can launch AGM0158 JASSM-ER cruise missiles. Technically speaking, a real life cruise missile could circle the map ten times. In game, it gets a range of 15, but has a long reload, like the B83 nuclear bombs.

Or you could have a emanation so when you go into the barbwire your health ticks down.

That is do-able, though there's no way to tell the emanation not to hurt air units, tanks, etc... =[ At the best, there's a way to apply the damage multipliers and it could get a new damage multiplier, but the emanation would still show up on the unit's info screen, which feels wrong. If there was a way to remove that limitation, it could work well.

[Zoythrus]

sorry, i dont mean to harp on the idea that the ADS should get an upgrade, but if you were wanting ideas for one, here's what i got: the normal ADS would reduce unit speed by 33% and do approx 5 damage/sec; but the upgraded version would slow by 50% and do 10 damage/sec with a splash of 3 (so you could slow/damage a small handful of units). now, feel free to change those values, i just threw those numbers out there for the sake of discussion.

you know, something i like about the upgrade idea is that it forces UNATF players to decide where to spend their resources. since each defense must be upgraded individually, you have to strategically place and upgrade defenses.

so, do you think that the Cult should also follow the defense upgrade system? or do you think they should have their own way of upgrading their defenses?

[Omega]

sorry, i dont mean to harp on the idea that the ADS should get an upgrade, but if you were wanting ideas for one, here's what i got: the normal ADS would reduce unit speed by 33% and do approx 5 damage/sec; but the upgraded version would slow by 50% and do 10 damage/sec with a splash of 3 (so you could slow/damage a small handful of units). now, feel free to change those values, i just threw those numbers out there for the sake of discussion.

That might work. Except for one thing, isn't the device supposed to STOP the targets, not just slow them? Slowing and minor damage alone wouldn't be too useful. I suppose we would have the effect weaken the further from the splash radius it would be, perhaps just increasing the radius and damage? Of course, the damage would have to be much higher, seeing that once you get attacked, the average life expectancy is a mere 7 seconds, so perhaps more like 50 damage per second (in those 7 seconds, that's 350 damage, far below any unit's HP, thus, it's the weakest unit by far and thus "minor damage" in comparison). It would weaken the further from the center of the splash the target is.

If you can use tags in effects as per this thread, I think that the effect should only affect infantry units, for balance purposes, leaving machinery unharmed (and thus making it a higher priority to take advantage of these machines to destroy the ADS).

so, do you think that the Cult should also follow the defense upgrade system? or do you think they should have their own way of upgrading their defenses?

Probably, but let's focus on UNATF for now.

[Zoythrus]

i think it should affect vehicles too, but perhaps just less. like, if the standard ADS were to slow infantry by 75%, it would slow light vehicles by 50% and tanks by 25% (once again, these are somewhat arbitrary numbers).

now, i had forgotten that the ADS was supposed to completely stop units, so why not make the lv1 ADS slow units while the lv2 completely freezes infantry and greatly slows vehicles. if we made it solely anti-infantry, there'd be no real use for it (why not just make a pillbox?). do you think that aircraft should be hit by it too?

[Omega]

i think it should affect vehicles too, but perhaps just less. like, if the standard ADS were to slow infantry by 75%, it would slow light vehicles by 50% and tanks by 25% (once again, these are somewhat arbitrary numbers).

now, i had forgotten that the ADS was supposed to completely stop units, so why not make the lv1 ADS slow units while the lv2 completely freezes infantry and greatly slows vehicles. if we made it solely anti-infantry, there'd be no real use for it (why not just make a pillbox?). do you think that aircraft should be hit by it too?

I'm not entirely sure if it would impact a vehicle in real life... At either rate, not impacting the vehicles here would be for balance above anything... Remember, infantry is cheap, vehicles are expensive. With infantry being the heart of the game and the most versatile, they can be affected the most by stopping them. Plus, stopping units is pretty severe, and it's important not too many units will get stopped (imagine a defense spamming these ADS's, stopping the entire attacking force!)

[Zoythrus]

i think it should affect vehicles too, but perhaps just less. like, if the standard ADS were to slow infantry by 75%, it would slow light vehicles by 50% and tanks by 25% (once again, these are somewhat arbitrary numbers).

now, i had forgotten that the ADS was supposed to completely stop units, so why not make the lv1 ADS slow units while the lv2 completely freezes infantry and greatly slows vehicles. if we made it solely anti-infantry, there'd be no real use for it (why not just make a pillbox?). do you think that aircraft should be hit by it too?

I'm not entirely sure if it would impact a vehicle in real life... At either rate, not impacting the vehicles here would be for balance above anything... Remember, infantry is cheap, vehicles are expensive. With infantry being the heart of the game and the most versatile, they can be affected the most by stopping them. Plus, stopping units is pretty severe, and it's important not too many units will get stopped (imagine a defense spamming these ADS's, stopping the entire attacking force!)

as i had said a page or so back, the main reasoning for slowing down tanks and other vehicles is that since they are being bombarded by heat and radiation, they would have to slow down or face risk of overheating and possibly blowing their engines. so, it'd be an indirect slowing.

ok, howabout this, only light vehicles and aircraft are affected (such as the Humvee and the Helicopter),  but tanks and other heavy vehicles are unaffected (immune to all abilities and damage that the ADS can do) . now, i would say that the light vehicles should only be half affected by the radiation than the infantry; so if an infantry is frozen (100%), a Humvee would be reduced to 50% speed. so, the ADS would be the main counter to fast units, but loses to slower ones.

now, about spamming the ADS to freeze everything, i think that the "slow" shouldnt stack, but the damage would.

lastly, the ADS should have a slightly longer range than other defenses, so it can sit behind them and assist in defending the base. since it's late game and seemingly experimental technology, it should be pretty fragile, so it must be defended by the other defenses.