Sun and Moon

[-Archmage-]

John, I know you wanted to do this by yourself, but I'll animate some stuff if you want, just to keep this mod going, because I always wanted to play it

[John.d.h]

I really hope to see this mod continue. Some really great stuff has come about here (and will continue to come about I'm sure). I gotta say that this is one of my more favorite mods under-development. 

Thanks!

John, I know you wanted to do this by yourself, but I'll animate some stuff if you want, just to keep this mod going, because I always wanted to play it

I appreciate the offer, but I'm still going to decline.  Once Dark Magic gets done, I'm going to be able to come back to Sun and Moon, and I'm also planning on reworking the tech tree to make it play a lot less like Magitech and adding some all-new models when I get the time to learn.  Even if I keep most of the units using Magitech's basic human model as a base, I'm still going to have to make the animals and monsters from scratch.  Besides, animations are my favorite part of the modding process.

Basically, I insist on doing the work myself and I have very little time to do it right now, so unless you want to do my job or my school work for me, you'll just have to wait for this mod.

I'm considering locking the topic for a little while, because October is going to be one of the busiest months I've had in years.

[-Archmage-]

Ok, but please let me do a little modeling to speed it up just a little.

[John.d.h]

I got sidetracked while doing something else, and ended up modeling and texturing a structure.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/cairn#imagebox

Now if only I can remember what I was supposed to be doing before I got distracted.  

[-Archmage-]

Nice model, what is it?

[John.d.h]

It's a Cairn, a sort of spiritual nexus for the Moon faction, where they call upon their ancestors and the spirits of the wild.  It's basically a big rock with two trees and a basin of some sort.  I got the idea of hanging a flag around the rock from my World Religions class.  Apparently practitioners of Shinto will hang paper decorations on special rocks, trees, and other places of spiritual significance, so I figured dangling a flag around the rock would be a great way to show team color and add a bit of animation.

Also, here's what I've been working on in the past few hours:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/thorn-tree-wip#imagebox

This is a WIP version of the Thorn Tree, a stationary defense unit for the Moon faction.  I'm animating it (idle, attacking, death, and construction), but the texture could use some work and I'm thinking of getting rid of that humanoid arm so it's less like an ent and more like a nasty man-eating tree.

Once again you see the dangling flag for team color.

[-Archmage-]

Yeah I think it should just have a lot of branches.

[Mark]

Could you give a swordman model to scale it?  I think it should be like 8 feet tall, but I can't tell.  From the pixelated texture it looks to be pretty large.

[John.d.h]

Could you give a swordman model to scale it?  I think it should be like 8 feet tall, but I can't tell.

I wasn't sure which one you meant by "it", so here's a comparison of both.  If each square is 2¹/₂ feet, then the Guard is 5'4" (which was a fairly typical Medieval height) and the Cairn is 9'4".  The height of the Thorn Tree really depends on what you're measuring.  While the main part of the trunk is only about 7'6", the highest branch extends another 10', and the roots extend 2'6" below the ground, making it a total of 20'0" from the tip of the root to tip of the branch.

Click here for height comparison.

From the pixelated texture it looks to be pretty large.

It is, but part of the reason the texture is so pixelated is that I haven't tried doing a halfway-decent unwrapping yet.

Edit: In case anyone is wondering, the Cairn has 349 polygons and the Thorn Tree has 525.

Edit 2: Added a new screen shot to the OP.  I'm also posting it here for your convenience (click to enlarge!):

Code: [Select]

[URL=http://img132.imageshack.us/i/screen0g.jpg/][IMG]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8633/screen0g.th.jpg[/img][/URL]

[Mark]

Could you give a swordman model to scale it?  I think it should be like 8 feet tall, but I can't tell.

I wasn't sure which one you meant by "it", so here's a comparison of both.  If each square is 2¹/₂ feet, then the Guard is 5'4" (which was a fairly typical Medieval height) and the Cairn is 9'4".  The height of the Thorn Tree really depends on what you're measuring.  While the main part of the trunk is only about 7'6", the highest branch extends another 10', and the roots extend 2'6" below the ground, making it a total of 20'0" from the tip of the root to tip of the branch.

Wow! That looks really good on that 'graph paper' you added with the lines.  I like what you did, but I think the cairn should be the height of a guard. 

Edit 2: Added a new screen shot to the OP.  I'm also posting it here for your convenience (click to enlarge!):

Not sure what OP means, but that screenshot looks great.  Do you think this mod is near completion?

[John.d.h]

Wow! That looks really good on that 'graph paper' you added with the lines.  I like what you did, but I think the cairn should be the height of a guard.

That was actually just a screenshot from Blender with the gray background alpha'd out. 
I think I prefer the current height because it makes it seem less like an ordinary boulder and more like an object of reverence, further emphasized by decorating it with a flag and putting the basin there.  Originally it was going to have a brazier, but I couldn't think of a good way to simulate flames or smoke, so I made it a wash basin, which adds even more Shinto influence.

Not sure what OP means, but that screenshot looks great.

OP = original post, which is currently a mess and really needs to cleaned up.

Do you think this mod is near completion?

No, I wouldn't say so.

[Mark]

Do you think this mod is near completion?

No, I wouldn't say so.

Darn, because it looks really good.

[John.d.h]

Well, I had a lot of things finished a while back, but my skills weren't that great back then, so the buildings are blocky and lacking in detail, the textures badly need to be remade, and the animations look robotic.  Hence, most of it is being redone or at least heavily modified.  Today and last night, for example, I almost completely restructured Moon's tech tree.

Below is the current version.  Buildings are shown in blue, troops in green, heroes in teal, and upgrades in red).  Items shown in italics will only be included in the GAE version.

Dun (requires Standing Stones) - starting building, stores resources
   Serf - builder and gatherer
      Kern (morphs from Serf, requires Dun) - javelin unit, medium range, piercing attack

      Orchard - living structure, produces food and energy
         Thorn Tree (morphs from Orchard, requires Standing Stones) - living structure, produces food and energy, stationary defense

      Garrison - military barracks, trains units
         Broch (morphs from Garrison, requires Fortification) - military stronghold, trains units
         Savage - raider unit, fast movement, impact attack, leather armor, weak defense
            Therianthrope - monster unit, fast movement, slashing attack, rapid regeneration, debuffs
         Squire - infantry unit, strong defense, slashing attack, metal armor, slow movement
            Gallowglass (morphs from Squire, requires Rune Armor) - elite infantry unit, strong defense, strong attack, slow movement

      Standing Stones - stone circle, researches upgrades
         Henge (morphs from Standing Stones) - raised stone circle, researches upgrades, summons heroes
            Banshee (requires Lifespring) - magical hero, strong debuffs, healing ability
            Ceannfort (requires Broch) - military hero, strong defense, helpful emanation
            Fomori (requires Cairn) - sacred hero, strong attack, rapid regeneration
         Ancestral Communion (allows Cairn) - sacred upgrade, improves the sight radius of Gallowglass, Kern, Savage, and Squire
         Fortification (allows Broch) - military upgrade, improves the armor of Dun, Garrison, Broch, and Henge
         Otherworld Heritage (allows Lifespring) - magical upgrade, improves the EP of Fay, Hag, Shaman, and Thorn Tree
         Manxome Rune (allows Basilisk) - sacred upgrade, improves the attack strength of Dire Wolf, Fomori, Jabberwock, and Therianthrope
         Rune Armor (allows Gallowglass) - military upgrade, improves the armor of Ceannfort, Kern, Savage, and Squire
         Sign of the Eclipse (allows Therianthrope) - magical upgrade, improves the EP regen of Banshee, Fay, Hag, and Shaman

      Cairn (requires Ancestral Communion) - sacred structure, trains units
         Fay - support unit, healing ability
         Hag - spellcasting unit, debuffs
         Shaman - summoner unit, requires EP to bind units
            Dire Wolf - beast unit, fast movement, strong attack, weak armor
            Jabberwock - creature unit, tough armor, debuff emanation
            Basilisk - flying unit, ranged attack, rapid regeneration

      Lifespring (requires Otherworld Heritage) - magical structure, healing emanation

[Mark]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this seems to be very similar to the religious beliefs of the la tene or celtish peoples.  In addition to that, it is a conglomeration of world mythology, am I right?

[John.d.h]

Yes, this faction is influenced heavily by Celtic and Gallic tribal cultures and mythologies.  Of course there's a fair amount of influence from other sources and my own imagination, though.  The unfortunate side effect of having such a "grab bag" of ideas is that it's going to need a ton of work to make all those units.

[Loronal]

Cool this faction is amazingly cool I really like the ideas and all but I wonder how you want to make heros without gae

[Mark]

Yes, this faction is influenced heavily by Celtic and Gallic tribal cultures and mythologies.  Of course there's a fair amount of influence from other sources and my own imagination, though.  The unfortunate side effect of having such a "grab bag" of ideas is that it's going to need a ton of work to make all those units.

This is good.  I just was reading a book about the Celts, and I saw a picture of a beast-thing called a cernunnos.  It looked like a giant behemoth from magic, except more slender and muscular, but it had giant, antler like horns and equally gargantuan, bloodied claws.  Then I read he was the god of the underworld, and I made the connection with this old picture I found of tucho's.  It shows a giant beast thing that is like what I saw, except he is killing some christian warriors.  Here is the picture:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5838/2562/1600/cerunnos2.jpg

And about the 'grab bag dilemma', I think it is not a big deal as long as they fall under the theme of natural equilibrium and druids.  And I am sure you will do a good job, judging from past works of yours!

[Fluffy203]

i really wanna see this done , can i help with anything i mean atleast one thing , this has been here ever since i've been on the fourms

[John.d.h]

I spent a pretty big chunk of this weekend working on this project, so here's a little of my progress (click on the pictures to enlarge).  All of these are works in progress, but I consider the Henge and Monument to be pretty much done as far as modeling goes.  Obviously all of these still need textures and animations (where applicable).

From left to right, I present the Standing Stones, Henge, Monument, a close-up of the Monument's decorations, and Solar Circle.

Code: [Select]

[url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/standing-stones-wip#imagebox][IMG]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8240/standingstones.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/henge-wip#imagebox][IMG]http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9814/henge.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/monument-wip#imagebox][IMG]http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4359/monumento.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/monument-decorations-wip][img]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/3218/monumentdecorations.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/solar-circle-wip][IMG]http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4472/solarcircle.th.png[/img][/url]
The Standing Stones is Moon's primary research building.  The Henge, which morphs from the Standing Stones, summons heroes (GAE only) and also retains the ability to research upgrades.  The Solar Circle is where the Sun faction recruits its magic users and the Monument is another of Sun's buildings, but I'm not sure what it will be used for since I'm still piecing together their new tech tree.

Cool this faction is amazingly cool I really like the ideas and all but I wonder how you want to make heros without gae

The heroes are only for the GAE version, as are several of the other units I have planned.  Everything that's shown in italics in the tech tree is GAE-only.

I just was reading a book about the Celts, and I saw a picture of a beast-thing called a cernunnos.  It looked like a giant behemoth from magic, except more slender and muscular, but it had giant, antler like horns and equally gargantuan, bloodied claws.  Then I read he was the god of the underworld, and I made the connection with this old picture I found of tucho's.  It shows a giant beast thing that is like what I saw, except he is killing some christian warriors.  Here is the picture:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5838/2562/1600/cerunnos2.jpg

Oh yeah, I've seen that before.  It's actually pretty close to my concept for the Fomori hero.  The Fomori are a race of giants in Celtic myth and they vary widely among different stories.  What I remember from a big book of mythology that I used to have is that they come in all different shapes and sizes, have a lot of animal features, and their king (I think his name was Balor) was a cyclops with a death-ray eye.  So the image in my mind is more bulky than Tucho's cerunnos, and more like just a cyclops with horns and maybe some other beastly features, but still somewhat similar.

And about the 'grab bag dilemma', I think it is not a big deal as long as they fall under the theme of natural equilibrium and druids.  And I am sure you will do a good job, judging from past works of yours!

Yeah, one of the things I've noticed in my World Religions class is that a lot of indigenous/tribal religions have a lot of similarities, such as being an equal part of nature (as opposed to be above nature) and reverence of natural wonders and phenomena.

i really wanna see this done , can i help with anything i mean atleast one thing , this has been here ever since i've been on the fourms

Patience, grasshopper.  Good things come to those who wait.  Besides, don't you have like three other mods you're working on?

[Fluffy203]

true they do come in time , just thought i'd offer to do something for you , but yea i am really working on the holy empire since , GMD is on a break or something and i'll work on the splurg for the Moon mod after we get the actual humans done , but so far i'm just doing holy empire and thought i'd offer doing something , but i know you wanted to do all of it by yourself

[John.d.h]

I remade the Solar Circle (again), and here's the current version, along with the brand new Effigy model.

Code: [Select]

[url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/solar-circle-wip-2#imagebox/][IMG]http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4472/solarcircle.th.png[/img][/url][url=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/solar-circle-wip-2-decorations#imagebox][img]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1387/solarcircledecorations.th.png[/img][/url][URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/effigy-wip#imagebox][IMG]http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3002/effigy.th.png[/img][/URL]Click the thumbnails for full-sized images.

I also present to you Sun's tentatively completed tech tree, and I'll also be adding it to the first post.

Buildings are shown in blue, troops in green, heroes in teal, and upgrades in red).  Items shown in italics will only be included in the GAE version.

Palace (requires Sun Well) - starting building, stores resources
   Laborer - builder and gatherer
      Artificer (morphs from Laborer, requires Effigy) - advanced builder, fast repairs
         Colossus (requires Arcane Engineering) - siege unit, strong defense, impact attack, stone armor, slow movement
         Sunglass - defensive structure, energy attack
   
      Herder's Pillar - agricultural center, produces food and livestock
         Goat - livestock unit, produces food
         
      Fort - military barracks, trains warrior units
         Citadel (morphs from Fort, requires Monasticism) - fortified barracks, trains advanced units
            Janissary - elite archer unit, long range, strong defense
            Zealot (requires Valor) - lion cavalry unit, strong attack, fast movement, AoE buff
         Slinger - ranged unit, long range, impact attack, weak defense
         Ghazi - infantry unit, balanced fighter
                  
      Sun Well - cultural center, researches upgrades
         Consecration (allows Solar Circle) - sacred upgrade, improves the armor of Effigy, Monument, Palace, and Sun Well
         Dominion (allows Effigy) - arcane upgrade, improves the sight range of Citadel, Effigy, Monument, and Palace
         Monasticism (allows Citadel) - cultural upgrade, improves the production speed of Monument and Solar Circle
         Arcane Engineering (allows Colossus) - arcane upgrade, improves the build and repair speeds of Laborer and Artificer
         Sacrifice (allows Phoenix) - sacred upgrade, improves the EP of Celestial, Eunuch, Matriarch, and Zealot
         Valor (allows Zealot) - military upgrade, improves the HP regen of Agha, Ghazi, Janissary, and Slinger
            
      Solar Circle (requires Consecration) - temple structure, trains sacred units
         Eunuch - support unit, heals and buffs
         Matron - priestess unit, strong attack, helpful emanation
         
      Altar (requires Solar Circle) - sacrificial structure, summons sacred units
         Celestial - angelic unit, ranged attack, fast flight
         Phoenix - flying unit, energy attack, rapid regeneration
         
      Effigy (requires Dominion) - arcane structure, debuff emanation
         Amplification - arcane upgrade, improves the effect strength of Matron and Penitent
      
      Monument (requires Sun Well) - advanced cultural structure, summons heroes
         Agha (requires Citadel) - martial hero, balanced fighter, helpful emanation
         Matriarch (requires Solar Circle) - clerical hero, splash attack, heals and buffs
         Penitent (requires Effigy) - angelic hero, strong attack, healing emanation

true they do come in time , just thought i'd offer to do something for you , but yea i am really working on the holy empire since , GMD is on a break or something and i'll work on the splurg for the Moon mod after we get the actual humans done , but so far i'm just doing holy empire and thought i'd offer doing something , but i know you wanted to do all of it by yourself

Well I do appreciate the offers.  People are willing to do the work themselves to see that this mod gets done, and that lets me know that I'm onto something good.

[Loronal]

Uhm are those hero ideas and stuff from warcaft 3 sinc eI think you have played if you criticized the hammers (i think thats u) But anyways I love this mod, even more with gae installed I cant wait for it to be completed

[John.d.h]

Well, since I have someone asking about the heroes, now would be a good time to post descriptions, so here's what I have in mind for each of them.

Moon:

• The Banshee is an otherworldly faerie creature, and as such her magical abilities are very strong.  She has a powerful attack that puts enemies in a trance-like sleep as well as a powerful healing ability.  She is not very sturdy and she will likely fall quickly in melee combat, and her abilities are almost useless without a supporting army, so she should never go into battle alone.
  
• The Ceannfort is a warrior who has distinguished himself on the field of battle in both fighting ability and leadership.  His charismatic aura allows his nearby allies to fight more courageously, so he is best used in a group, but his own fighting abilities are strong enough for him to lead the charge and come out alive.
  
• The Fomori are a race of ancient giants from long before the arrival of humanity.  Not only is the race very old, but individual fomori can live hundreds of years, maybe even thousands if not slain in battle.  The few people who have seen them with their own eyes describe them as tall and muscular, with a single eye and animal features.  The Fomori hero's strength and fighting prowess are unmatched, and his own natural regeneration can turn the tide in a prolonged battle.
  

Sun:

• The Agha is a military leader and cunning tactician.  His strategic thinking allows his troops to fight much better than they would without a leader, boosting both their attack strength and armor over a wide radius.  The Agha is much more of a thinker than a fighter, so although he can hold his own against a limited opposition, it is wise to keep him protected from stronger foes.
  
• The title of Matriarch is bestowed upon high-ranking members of the religious hierarchy.  As a powerful priestess, a Matriarch is able to call upon the fire and fury of the sun goddess, scorching enemies from afar.  Her sacred abilities also allow her to heal and strengthen her allies.  The Matriarch is not a master of weapons or armor, and as such she should be protected at all times.
  
• The Celestials, whether ascended from humans or created, are the angelic servants of the sun goddess.  When one commits an act of rebellion, he is banished to the mortal plane and may either continue to go against the mistress, or may become a Penitent and seek to redeem himself.  Penitents are stripped of their beautiful wings and much of their power, but they are still stronger than nearly any mere mortal and their presence blesses those around them by soothing their wounds.
  

Uhm are those hero ideas and stuff from warcaft 3

In some ways yes, and in other ways no.  There are three heroes per faction, you can only have one of each at a time, and they have special abilities and emanations.  All that is pretty similar to Warcraft 3, and that's where I got these ideas.  However, in WC you can build a hero very early on and it's going to be really weak until about level 5, whereas my heroes are placed much higher on the tech tree, so you can expect them to be much stronger at lower levels.  Sun and Moon's tech trees are each basically split into three main branches, and each hero is kinda the culmination of one of those branches.  For example, Sun has the branch that goes like Sun Well + Fort > Monasticism > Agha, where the Agha sits at the end of the "military" branch.  In this way, the heroes are basically the "ultimate" units, somewhere between the heroes from Warcraft 3 and the titans from Age of Mythology (but quite a bit less powerful).

I think you have played if you criticized the hammers (i think thats u) But anyways I love this mod, even more with gae installed I cant wait for it to be completed

Yeah, that was me.  I always thought the artwork in that game was too stylized.  I mean, have you seen the muscles on some of those heroes?

Also, here's another update, the Palace and a close-up of the statues decorating it (as always, click for full size):

Code: [Select]

[URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/palace-wip#imagebox/][IMG]http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9782/palacet.th.png[/img][/URL][URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/palace-wip-statue#imagebox/][IMG]http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1122/palacestatue.th.png[/img][/URL]

[Mark]

That first model looks to be about 8 tiles, from the scale of the modified guard!  I hope you can cut it down.

[John.d.h]

That first model looks to be about 8 tiles, from the scale of the modified guard!  I hope you can cut it down.

Oh, I probably should have mentioned that the statues are scaled down to half the size of the original model (and only 158 faces each).  The building is size value 5 and height value 6, same as the Mage Tower.

Two more updates (Edit: make that four), the Herder's Pillar and a modification to the Thorn Tree, making its branches less arm-like (click the pics for full size):

Code: [Select]

[URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/herders-pillar-wip#imagebox][IMG]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9619/herderspillar.th.png[/img][/URL][URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/thorn-tree-wip-2#imagebox][IMG]http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5922/thorntree2.th.png[/img][/URL][URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/herders-pillar-textured#imagebox][IMG]http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1689/herderspillar2.th.png[/img][/URL][URL=http://www.moddb.com/mods/sun-and-moon/images/herders-pillar-construction#imagebox][IMG]http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1528/herderspillar3.th.png[/img][/URL]