Author Topic: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...  (Read 12329 times)

Omega

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Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« on: 21 December 2008, 21:36:28 »
Is magic balanced enough to beat an ultra tech and normal magic?
Normally, the CPU seems to enjoy crowding into one location which is a sort of super base, but in a recent battle of mine, I counted five bases (by base, I mean an area that is isolated with its own castle and resources). It was just a normal CPU ultra tech, in a three way battle which also had another magic faction which was whiped out very early. Playing as magic, it took me two and a half hours to defeat the monstous tech. Magic had a special feature to it though, for 100 gold, the energy source would produce 15 energy (by producing and invisible, spaceless unit). Early on, after the first magic faction fell, I infiltrated their base, surprised it was empty, so I set up another base of my own there, and made another mage tower. Then I started producing units in both bases, making a defence of battlemages, archmages, and golems in each base. However, when the ultra-tech attacked me, I ended up losing the first base, and moved all my units to the second base.

Then I sent some units to the center to claim the gold (this was the swamp of sorrow map, after all), but to my dismay, they were decimated by a large enemy attack force, which proceeded to attack me afterwards. Barely surviving that, I had to spend some time to rebuild. After spending a long time rebuilding and producing, I attacked the enemy with an army of 16 dragons and 8 archmages. I whiped out the central base losing only a few dragons, and proceeded onward north to the main base. Once there, I was faced with the challenge of a huge base that had two air ballistas, making my dragons weaker. Once I defeated the base, I noticed the foe walking away so I assumed there was yet another base. Following the dirrection in which the workers were moving in, I encountered another large base, which had quite a few air ballistas and defense towers. After attacking them for a few moments, I retreated to build up another force to take out the pesky air ballistas and defense towers.

Back at my base, I quickly turned 16 initiates, some which were idle and other which were gathering resources, into battlemages and quickly sent them to the base I was attacking. While I was attacking the air ballistas and defense towers that base, a swarm of horsemen and ornithopters (I'd say about 25+) attacked me, whiping out my entire attack force.

By this point, my entire base was out of gold. Having little resources and no attacking units other than a few golems, I moved all my remaining initiates to the center and built a mage tower. Since the center of Swamp of Sorrow has three big plumes of gold, I sent a large number of initiates to mine from each one. After I started to pile up the gold, I made another mage tower and had the two mage towers pump out initiates to a set spot. Once I had 16, I morphed them into battlemages, numbered them, and moved them aside. A little while later I morphed all 16 of those battlemages into archmages. Now I made another 16 initiates, which wasn't hard, since I had so much gold, and morphed them into battlemages. I also numbered them, and then sent both the battlemages and the archmages to attack the nearest base, which was still flooded with a large number of horsemen and ornithopter. I managed to kill the horsemen and ornithopter, as well as destroy most of the farms and defense towers before that force was wiped out by yet another wave of horsemen and ornithopters, as well as archers, battle machines, and catipults.

Now frustrated, I sent another wave of 16 battlemages at the now weakening foe, which destroyed that base. Advancing on, I destroyed the rest of the bases, aiming for the farms, though eventually those battlemages were killed too. Once all the farms were destroyed, and most of the animals with them, I managed to destroy the last castle, which stopped the enemies unit production. By the time I had another force of 16 battlemages, the foe was almost completely dead from hunger, and I easily attacked and destroyed the last few buildings without too much trouble. I never made as many units as the foe, nor did I harvest as many resources, but yet I won, and with magic too! Yes, this was a truely spectacular battle, and it is probably good proof that the AI is very difficult and cunning, as well as that magic can be balanced with just the upgrade of the ability to produce energy from the energy source and have the initiate harvest gold at the same amount as tech can. Those are the only changes that I had on my magic faction.

Although I wonder how I couldn't defeat the enemy with the first attack of 16 dragons and 8 archmages? Normally that would have crushed the foe, but in this case, it seemed to do little. Oh well, it was a very fun (and difficult) battle!

Here's the scoring:
[attachment=0:9itrbqac]magic-vs-tech(ultra).jpg[/attachment:9itrbqac]
I'm not sure how it adds up though. I looked at the source, and I know how the scoring works, but how did player 3 suffer 102 deaths when they only produced 88 units? And I thought I had killed pretty much every one of the ultra-tech's units, so why is the death count much lower than its units produced? Is deaths from hunger counted? Oh, and maybe the deaths should subtract something from the score, for I know they don't. Maybe we should have a high scores board as well. Would that work, since you can score tons of points if you were to keep playing after the game ended?


Anyone else have any spectacular battles like this?
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mictes

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #1 on: 21 December 2008, 21:42:10 »
Yes, as discussed on the forums magic is not poerful enough. Cause: Defense.
Magic needs an defense unit like the defense_tower, I use one in my mod - the defense_obelisk.
Secondly the unit-system of magic is totally BS to the CPU. (Morph, Moph, Moph,...)
« Last Edit: 21 December 2008, 22:07:20 by mictes »

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #2 on: 21 December 2008, 21:49:07 »
That's not the point. While that could have stopped my first base from falling, I probably wouldn't have the thing built yet, and even then, it is a good sign that the AI can attack and defeat one of my bases. Not just me beating its. THe golem is a defensive unit that works like the defense tower, but can be built earlier, faster, and it is more powerful.

All I think we need is for the initiate to be able to have the same stats (except HP) as the worker, and for the energy source to be able to produce energy, so that we don't need to build a ton of new ones. Thats the only changes I had, yet I beat the ultra tech.

It's all in the player.
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John.d.h

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #3 on: 21 December 2008, 21:55:31 »
I don't know how the scoring works, but I guess defeating your opponents doesn't count for much since Player 2 got killed and still has the most points.

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #4 on: 21 December 2008, 22:23:19 »
That's because of the huge amount of resources gained. You get points for each kill, unit produced, and resource harvested. The ultra harvests like twice as fast, and it had five or so bases. No wonder!
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modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #5 on: 23 December 2008, 03:38:11 »
Yes it would be nice to have a high scores board.  I'll start a new topic.  But you have to be honest when you submit (no playing after you win)

verarticus

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #6 on: 27 December 2008, 02:48:16 »
1. maybe buildings count as destroyed units?
2. the golem is much weaker (2000hp to 7000hp and a slower attack I wonder...)
3. the initiate might need a bit stronger attack.

modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #7 on: 28 December 2008, 01:06:18 »
NO!  Don't give the Initiate a stronger attack because then the CPU tends to send them into battle, actually making Magic weaker because then they're no mining resources as opposed to Tech.

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #8 on: 28 December 2008, 03:50:25 »
The golem may seem weaker, but it has the advantage of power, defense, and attack type (impact). It can also move a small distance.

Personally, you can trash the initiates attack and make it equal to the worker. I never use the initiate to attack anyway, and the computer likes to send them to attack, just as modman said.
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modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #9 on: 29 December 2008, 20:45:20 »
The problem with the Golem's attack type is that it's best against stone, metal and wood armors.  Most armors in Glest are leather or organic.  I would recommend as a possible change to give the Golem some kind of piercing or energy attack instead.

The problem with the Golem's mobility is that, unlike the Defence Tower, the Golem tends to be in front of the town where it is enemy target #1 to any onslaught.  The Defence Tower tends to pick off units from the back and get ignored until, because of the AI's attack patterns, it is closest to the attackers.

verarticus

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #10 on: 29 December 2008, 20:59:07 »
dang my last post didn't go up >: (

ok ya The attack tipe dos'nt help.
you call that mobility?
it has to little heath so its dead before you can get an initiate to repair it and even then 2 archers can still drops its heath decently the defence tower gives time to get workers to it.
The attack damage varies to much and still takes to many hits to kill anything.
and I suggested initiate attack increase because that would give magic a better defence and when they attack they would do a bit more damage. (and you realy don't want to take away the attack cause then you lose like 10% of magics advantage and it dosn't have much)

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #11 on: 29 December 2008, 22:54:38 »
I'd take 1 golem over 2 defense towers any day. Tech's guard is easily felled by the golem, while the defense tower is extremely weak against that. In fact, I'd rather have five archers (faster to make, mobile) than a single defense tower. THe only use for the defense tower is to absorb enemy attack. It's too weak for anything else! Want to absorb damage in magic? Build an archmage tower. It has a massive 10,000 hp, which is the highest in the game, and little real use aside from allowing archmages and dragons to be built.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the golem. Leave the poor guy alone. It's bad enough having a weight problem and being obese, you dont have to critize his attacking skills. I happen to love the golem, and think it does very good.
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verarticus

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #12 on: 29 December 2008, 23:10:24 »
I think he's ok just not strong enough and what do you mean the defence tower is just there for taking damage? I counted once (I was board) and one tower killed about 15 guys out of a group of 45 or so(tech and magic enemies in one attack) The golem can sometimes get 10 if you have 2 initiates repairing him or if the enemies come one at a time.

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #13 on: 30 December 2008, 01:29:19 »
hmm, I've never seen a defense tower do that... Who was after it? Workers? :lol:  :O
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verarticus

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #14 on: 30 December 2008, 02:46:32 »
Quote from: "omega"
hmm, I've never seen a defense tower do that... Who was after it? Workers? :lol: :O

Deamons,battlemages,swordmans,gaurds,archers,and a few horsemen. And Yes there were some of my units fighting (about 10 vs 45) and I only counted the ones, the defence tower did at least 90% (not if it hit one but if it did all or all but one hit) of the damage to.

modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #15 on: 30 December 2008, 03:10:05 »
I have to aggree with verarticus.  The Golem is not helped by it's mobility.

Also:
Quote from: "omega"
I'd take 1 golem over 2 defense towers any day
I wouldn't.  Which would win?  It would probably beat one of the Defence Towers, but not both.  Also, most of the unit in Glest are damaged more by piercing attack type than by impact, unless your Golem happens to get to the enemy camp, which would take forever.  Also, one or two Horeseman could kill the Golem, and guess what's usually in front of the town?  Golem.  Also piercing is good against organic, so a Defence Tower would easily kill two Horseman.

Also the Defence Tower attacks air, while the Golem is useless against pretty much everything else except stone and wood armors.  Rarely do you see those in military.  Leather is most common, along with organic.  Guess which is good against those armors?  Piercing; the Defence Tower.

CONCLUSION: Defence Tower is far more useful than a Golem.

verarticus

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #16 on: 30 December 2008, 04:20:42 »
The golem has one thing though that gives it an advantage...you can start to build it then leave him as a head sticking out of the ground   X D

modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #17 on: 30 December 2008, 23:02:51 »
There's some kind of bug when I do that...Lets take this discussion to another topic like "Should we tune Magic" or something.

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #18 on: 12 January 2009, 03:36:45 »
What I meant was that if I was defending my base from attackers, I'd rather have Golems. They look better! ;)
Truthfully, I can't really choose though. It depends on my faction. And for the record, I STILL think magic and tech are balanced, but I would like a non morphing unit that I could produce from a building.
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mictes

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #19 on: 12 January 2009, 09:25:44 »
Yes, I dont like the system of producing units by morphing!
It have big disadvantages for example in the costs!

modman

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #20 on: 13 January 2009, 00:04:34 »
It's a lot easier to see what the CPUs do, and it's obvious that Tech is stronger than Magic in that respect.  But because of the stronger attacks that magic can unleash, namely with the Archmage, it's hard to say who is tougher to beat in multiplayer.  Let's not have that discussion please though.

Idea!  What if the Tower of Souls produces some kind of ghost unit!  That unit doesn't have to morph.

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #21 on: 13 January 2009, 04:21:11 »
I'd like that. The tower of souls is pretty useless as it is... I mean, most magic units can attack air anyway, so what's its point?
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mictes

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #22 on: 13 January 2009, 09:36:14 »
It's there to fill in the 18 units ;-) *totally agree*

battle machine man

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #23 on: 16 February 2009, 17:01:10 »
Is magic balanced enough to beat an ultra tech and normal magic?
Normally, the CPU seems to enjoy crowding into one location which is a sort of super base, but in a recent battle of mine, I counted five bases (by base, I mean an area that is isolated with its own castle and resources). It was just a normal CPU ultra tech, in a three way battle which also had another magic faction which was whiped out very early. Playing as magic, it took me two and a half hours to defeat the monstous tech. Magic had a special feature to it though, for 100 gold, the energy source would produce 15 energy (by producing and invisible, spaceless unit). Early on, after the first magic faction fell, I infiltrated their base, surprised it was empty, so I set up another base of my own there, and made another mage tower. Then I started producing units in both bases, making a defence of battlemages, archmages, and golems in each base. However, when the ultra-tech attacked me, I ended up losing the first base, and moved all my units to the second base.

Then I sent some units to the center to claim the gold (this was the swamp of sorrow map, after all), but to my dismay, they were decimated by a large enemy attack force, which proceeded to attack me afterwards. Barely surviving that, I had to spend some time to rebuild. After spending a long time rebuilding and producing, I attacked the enemy with an army of 16 dragons and 8 archmages. I whiped out the central base losing only a few dragons, and proceeded onward north to the main base. Once there, I was faced with the challenge of a huge base that had two air ballistas, making my dragons weaker. Once I defeated the base, I noticed the foe walking away so I assumed there was yet another base. Following the dirrection in which the workers were moving in, I encountered another large base, which had quite a few air ballistas and defense towers. After attacking them for a few moments, I retreated to build up another force to take out the pesky air ballistas and defense towers.

Back at my base, I quickly turned 16 initiates, some which were idle and other which were gathering resources, into battlemages and quickly sent them to the base I was attacking. While I was attacking the air ballistas and defense towers that base, a swarm of horsemen and ornithopters (I'd say about 25+) attacked me, whiping out my entire attack force.

By this point, my entire base was out of gold. Having little resources and no attacking units other than a few golems, I moved all my remaining initiates to the center and built a mage tower. Since the center of Swamp of Sorrow has three big plumes of gold, I sent a large number of initiates to mine from each one. After I started to pile up the gold, I made another mage tower and had the two mage towers pump out initiates to a set spot. Once I had 16, I morphed them into battlemages, numbered them, and moved them aside. A little while later I morphed all 16 of those battlemages into archmages. Now I made another 16 initiates, which wasn't hard, since I had so much gold, and morphed them into battlemages. I also numbered them, and then sent both the battlemages and the archmages to attack the nearest base, which was still flooded with a large number of horsemen and ornithopter. I managed to kill the horsemen and ornithopter, as well as destroy most of the farms and defense towers before that force was wiped out by yet another wave of horsemen and ornithopters, as well as archers, battle machines, and catipults.

Now frustrated, I sent another wave of 16 battlemages at the now weakening foe, which destroyed that base. Advancing on, I destroyed the rest of the bases, aiming for the farms, though eventually those battlemages were killed too. Once all the farms were destroyed, and most of the animals with them, I managed to destroy the last castle, which stopped the enemies unit production. By the time I had another force of 16 battlemages, the foe was almost completely dead from hunger, and I easily attacked and destroyed the last few buildings without too much trouble. I never made as many units as the foe, nor did I harvest as many resources, but yet I won, and with magic too! Yes, this was a truely spectacular battle, and it is probably good proof that the AI is very difficult and cunning, as well as that magic can be balanced with just the upgrade of the ability to produce energy from the energy source and have the initiate harvest gold at the same amount as tech can. Those are the only changes that I had on my magic faction.

Although I wonder how I couldn't defeat the enemy with the first attack of 16 dragons and 8 archmages? Normally that would have crushed the foe, but in this case, it seemed to do little. Oh well, it was a very fun (and difficult) battle!

Here's the scoring:
[attachment=0:9itrbqac]magic-vs-tech(ultra).jpg[/attachment:9itrbqac]
I'm not sure how it adds up though. I looked at the source, and I know how the scoring works, but how did player 3 suffer 102 deaths when they only produced 88 units? And I thought I had killed pretty much every one of the ultra-tech's units, so why is the death count much lower than its units produced? Is deaths from hunger counted? Oh, and maybe the deaths should subtract something from the score, for I know they don't. Maybe we should have a high scores board as well. Would that work, since you can score tons of points if you were to keep playing after the game ended?

Anyone else have any spectacular battles like this?
Well for the first part Magic is the same as Ultra Magic but if you are super good you could get alot of mages and ghost armors with a few bemoths maybe! Id get a lot of Daemons and a few  Tower of Souls in case of dragons ect. use about a Quarter of the Daemons to guard  the base another to find and take over a large chunk of resourses and if you get into trouble take most of your main force of mages and stuff and go to the large chunk of resources and meet the Daemons there! Dont move all your main force or base guarding  Daemons because the CPU can be tricky! I think you can take it from here P.S id do this but im 2 slow!

Omega

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Re: Lets test magic vs ultra tech...
« Reply #24 on: 16 February 2009, 21:00:43 »
As a challenge, I beat an ultra tech without building any buildings (other than producing energy). All I did was mine, producing initiates and promoting them into battlemages. I owned the tech so bad. Magic is the only faction that can really do that. Of course, it's no fun doing that, but that's just to prove my point. Although in a normal game, I never make behemoths. They usually die from archers before they even get ONE attack. This is because they are clumsy and sluggish in movement. Another tip is to NEVER build the tower of souls. The battlemages that you can make during the time it takes to produce one tower of souls is much more worth it.

I can't read all of your post Battle Machine, but if you're thinking about the heavy use of daemons, I wouldn't recommend it. They can't be matched by other units such as the battlemage and archmage. They die just to quickly. Best thing about battlemage's are there (relatively) low cost and they are fast. Throw in energy sharpening upgrade and they can pack quite a wallop. I NEVER lose as Magic anymore, but occasionally I'll lose as tech. (And I just can't win as norsemen or indians, even against the easiest foes...)
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