Author Topic: Off Topic - Main  (Read 467703 times)

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #500 on: 2 November 2009, 02:17:11 »
NO an age of fire.
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Trappin

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #501 on: 2 November 2009, 02:44:39 »
we actually PAY the teachers well. From what I hear, some other countries don't pay the teachers very well. In fact, on that subject, I want to be a teacher. The pay is good (~55K), the hours are perfect, summers and holidays are free

Tenured upper tier K-12 teachers in California - dependent upon school district - may earn close to 100k per year. Upper tier = 15/20+ years.

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/01/bows-and-flows/#more-6569

Give up Truth and you succumb to any or all of some very bad alternatives: superstition, confusion, fraud, or malignant skepticism.

Give up Truth and logic and you can no longer agree on the facts, or even on what is a fact. It was bad enough when this was confined to aesthetics (is Shakespeare better than Snoop Dog?). It got worse with multiculturalism (are Western values of individual dignity and freedom better than female clitorectomy or burning widows?). It has spread into science itself. Perhaps others are right to wonder if mathematics itself is about to become deconstructed.

Truth, with a capital T, acknowledgment of cause and effect, and personal responsibility (autoplastic) are linked together. I rarely see an individual who accepts personal responsibility and the concept of autoplastic change disbelieving the law of cause and effect and doubting that somewhere out there Truth exists for us to search out.

Aristotle on Non-contradiction ( also helps with logic)

Aristotle says that without the principle of non-contradiction we could not know anything that we do know. Presumably, we could not demarcate the subject matter of any of the special sciences, for example, biology or mathematics, and we would not be able to distinguish between what something is, for example a human being or a rabbit, and what it is like, for example pale or white. Aristotle's own distinction between essence and accident would be impossible to draw, and the inability to draw distinctions in general would make rational discussion impossible. According to Aristotle, the principle of non-contradiction is a principle of scientific inquiry, reasoning and communication that we cannot do without.

That looks like a tiger.

"But how do I know it’s a tiger?
How can I be certain that what appears to be there is really there?
How can I be certain that such a thing as tigers exist?
What is the essence of tiger?
Is it even possible to know that I could ever know what is the essence of anything?”


Now go read this link and the hockey stick subverted link.
« Last Edit: 2 November 2009, 05:05:42 by Trappin »

Omega

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #502 on: 2 November 2009, 04:03:35 »
Tenured upper tier K-12 teachers in California - dependent upon school district - may earn close to 100k per year. Upper tier = 15/20+ years.
Impressive, still 15-20+ years is a long time...

The way I see it, it doesn't even matter if global warming, global climate change, global climate destabilization, or global climate clusterf**k (whatever you want to call it) is actually going on or not.  Any way you look at it, reducing reliance of fossil fuels is a worthwhile goal.

  • Fossil fuels are terribly inefficient; the majority of the energy produced in a gasoline reaction is wasted.
  • They produce smog, air pollution, and acid rain, contributing to environmental and health damage.
  • There is only a limited supply of fossil fuels, and with the Earth's population constantly growing, there's no way of knowing how long they'll last.
  • The countries that produce petroleum in great quantities (OPEC) are a downright extortionate conglomeration that borders on monopoly.
  • Some of the biggest producers are way too friendly with terrorist organizations.
  • Reducing fuel consumption (obviously) reduces expenses, and research into alternative fuels creates jobs.

Oh, and just for the record, it was 85 degrees here today (29 Celsius) and it's the beginning of November. :P
Well, I envy your high temperatures (where do you live?) and I guess I fully agree with you there. Especially points 4 and 5. Fortunately, Saskatchewan (where I live) has enough uranium, potash, and petrolium to keep itself going for a long time. It's basically a resource haven. Alberta (which is just beside it) has tons of petrolium too (though no uranium, etc;). Unfortunately BC is undergoing a domestic terrorist who's been blowing up gas pipes. F***ing idiot...

While I support alternative energy, I also support nuclear energy. True, it's not all that clean, and it does leave nuclear waste, but Saskatchewan produces so bloody much uranium (most in the world, actually) and our north is very vast and empty. In fact, there's no roads in the top quarter of Saskatchewan.

BTW: On another topic, why DO americans use Fahrenheit instead of Celsius? I don't know any other countries that use it, and I can't spot any thing standardized about it. Celsius is so simple, 0 degrees is freezing point, 100 degrees is boiling point. Yet Fahrenheit doesn't seem to have any such patterns. While on that metric system topic, what's so good about using miles? A kilometer is 1000 meters, a meter is 100 centemeters, a centemeter is 10 milimeters, so on. This metric system is supported by nearly every country in the world except USA. Dito for grams, kilograms, etc; Even computers use these measurements (kilobyte, megabyte, gigabyte). So why do americans not use them? What is your reasons for not? Anyone care to tell me? I'm curious.
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Trappin

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #503 on: 2 November 2009, 04:48:21 »
Unless you die early in life, expect to work 50 years. What else is there to do. Work isn't always work.

You are aware where American units of measurement originated right? England.

Metric Units: US uses it in science/mathematics and the automobile industry. Short story follows. Back in 1976 the US tried to change the unit of measurement from the English standard to metric but it failed - for numerous reasons. People in general hate this sort of change, unions/journeymen didn't want to change and the dollar cost of converting 10 million road signs and even more road-mile markers put people off. Should we have converted? hell yes. Think of all the tortured school kids trying to convert 16/47ths into decimals. Now cry. heh.

There is one more reason.

Think of the US as a gigantic ship. She sails along fine as long as no one alters the course. Changing course on a huge ship = incredible momentum divided by inertia.

I think people don't fathom how large the US really is. The population of Norway is ~4 million people. The population of Los Angeles county is 9,862,049.

Comprede amigo?
« Last Edit: 2 November 2009, 05:13:17 by Trappin »

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #504 on: 2 November 2009, 05:19:15 »
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.  While it would be nice if the US ran on the metric system and it would be good in the long run, we've never gotten up the gumption to take the short-term hit.  Oh, and I live in central Florida, but 85 degrees is still unseasonably warm.  If I remember correctly, Fahrenheit originated in Germany and it was based on having human body temperature as 100 degrees (which is pretty close at 98.6 on average) and 0 being... well, damn cold. :D

I'm in favor of nuclear power to some degree.  I definitely prefer it over fossil fuels because the waste is less harmful (sure it's radioactive, but there's so little of it).  I think solar power will be the norm eventually.  We're constantly bombarded with more solar radiation than we could possibly use, especially here in the SUNSHINE state, and there are even small single-person vehicles that can run on solar power, so it's only a matter of time before solar cells get cheap enough and durable enough to be useful to the average person.

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #505 on: 2 November 2009, 05:21:57 »
No more gas?

Wow I wanted to spend my $ on gas.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #506 on: 2 November 2009, 05:34:55 »
Don't worry.  I'm sure there will still be some old gas guzzlers on the road for a long time.  ;)

Anyway, here's an article on the car my university converted to solar power.
http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/kosmas-cruises-solar-zenn-car-across-campus-1.1771853
As you can see, it's a two-seater and it doesn't have a lot of "get up and go", but it requires no fuel other than sunlight.

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #507 on: 2 November 2009, 16:25:09 »
OK so thes cars will be expensive right, and will need big batteries if they don't want to stop in a 3 to 4 day storm (maby longer.).
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #508 on: 2 November 2009, 16:32:35 »
What I think the future holds is electric cars that can run for at least 200+ kilometers before needing gas. I'm hoping for something like that in the next ten years!
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #509 on: 2 November 2009, 16:36:14 »
Yeah, Omega that would be nice, but we should really be trying to get to Mars.
If USA wasn't putting all this money into social programs and so-called "health care" then we would have the money to develop cars like that and get to space.
But the way were going we probably won't get to Mars for .........a while.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #510 on: 2 November 2009, 19:56:18 »
Why should we be trying to get to Mars?  Sure, it would be kinda cool to say we landed on another celestial body and didn't fake it this time, but I don't see how it would do any good other than to show off how much money we can waste on frivolous showboating while our nation decays from the inside out.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #511 on: 2 November 2009, 22:00:05 »
Duh, this world is already gone John, if we go to Mars while we still can, then we can build a new nation and all that.....
Really I'd much rather get off this ball of dirt and go somewhere..........I mean really, you want to stay on Earth?
The whole world is corrupt.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #512 on: 2 November 2009, 23:47:55 »
Okay, so when our Martian colonies all turn corrupt like their predecessors on Earth, then we move on to another planet, and then another?  People don't change.

Anyway, here's something all you anti-authoritarians and conspiracy theorists might enjoy.  In case you're not familiar with the work of Stanley Milgram, he was a scientist who conducted an experiment back in the 1960s in which he observed volunteers' willingness to bow to authority.  In the study, the volunteers are told that they're conducting an experiment on learning and punishment, so one is assigned to be the "teacher" and the other is the "student".  The student is asked to recall a pattern and every time he gets something wrong, the teacher shocks him.  It starts off with a very mild voltage and increases each time up to a maximum of 450 volts.  For comparison, an American electrical outlet is 110-120 volts and a European one is 240.  The twist is that the student is actually an actor and isn't really being shocked at all, which is a good thing because over half of the "teachers" continued shocking the students up to 450 volts (fatal) even after the student feigns unconsciousness.    This study was originally done in the 60s and over half of the participants went to the maximum voltage, but the study was replicated recently in the UK and the results... well, I'm not going to spoil the surprise.  You just have to watch and see. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5CC7F7D6054E7428&search_query=milgram+experiment+2%2F3+2009


If you have any interest in how normal people can do horrible things simply because they're following orders, this is a must-see!

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #513 on: 3 November 2009, 02:26:21 »
In the study, the volunteers are told that they're conducting an experiment on learning and punishment, so one is assigned to be the "teacher" and the other is the "student".  The student is asked to recall a pattern and every time he gets something wrong, the teacher shocks him.  It starts off with a very mild voltage and increases each time up to a maximum of 450 volts.  For comparison, an American electrical outlet is 110-120 volts and a European one is 240.  The twist is that the student is actually an actor and isn't really being shocked at all, which is a good thing because over half of the "teachers" continued shocking the students up to 450 volts (fatal) even after the student feigns unconsciousness.    This study was originally done in the 60s and over half of the participants went to the maximum voltage, but the study was replicated recently in the UK and the results... well, I'm not going to spoil the surprise.  You just have to watch and see. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5CC7F7D6054E7428&search_query=milgram+experiment+2%2F3+2009


I remember this was related to the trials of the Nazis who were "only following orders".  Personally, I do believe that in some circumstances, you might end up being a kindergarten teacher, whereas in another, you end up as a gas chamber attendant (which I believe is a profession in some US states anyhow...I hate capital punishment because it has no benefits besides revenge, which is punishment out of anger).  And no matter what you do, there is only so much we can do to avoid such things.  Think of the alternatives for that soldier...  Additionally, even IF he knew the extent of his actions, he may not have easily been able to escape them.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #514 on: 3 November 2009, 05:01:57 »
Yeah, Milgram's experiment was inspired by the holocaust and how so many ordinary people could just fall in line under a force of authority.  One important difference, I think, is that in the experiment, the scientist holds no coercive power.  In a totalitarian dictatorship, you have to follow orders because you'll maybe get a bullet in your head if you don't, but people in the experiment could have just said "I'm not going to do it" and walked away, no harm, no foul.

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #515 on: 3 November 2009, 07:11:30 »
You have to follow orders because you'll maybe get a bullet in your head if you don't.
You just need to be the one with the gun.  :D
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #516 on: 4 November 2009, 01:20:21 »
Yea, that works for a while.  Once you brandish your gun, though, what do you do?  You're in the middle of a blasted ( :) ) prison camp!

Theology debate now?

As an atheist, I have found no convincing arguments in favor of the existence of a deity.  Please keep in mind, too, that you are almost certainly an atheist when pertaining to the gods of the Greeks, the Romans, the Maya and Aztec, North American Natives' gods, and everything in between.  If you are a Christian, you are an atheist when concerning all but one god, Yahweh.  I just take it one step further, refuting him (her? / it?) as easily as Christians refute Zeus.

Additionally, there are several problems concerning individual religions, too.  For example, I read about an Islamic woman carrying an Arabic sign which read something like: "Behead all those who say Islam is violent!"  She did not recognize the extreme irony.

If religious debate is banned here, I understand why.  But until some one says so, let the talks begin!

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #517 on: 4 November 2009, 02:23:13 »
Modman you say your an atheist right?, do you believe in evolution?, and what do you mean by atheist?
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #518 on: 4 November 2009, 02:27:18 »
Personally, when I examine the universe and everything in it, how complex, organized, and beautiful everything is, I can't bring myself to believe that it's all created by some cosmic accident of random chance.  Entropy dictates that closed systems break down over time without an external influence, and the number of factors that need to coincide for life to exist and survive despite all the various things that could have come along and destroyed us before we even became multi-cellular... it all just seems too far-fetched to be an accident.  Some people become less religious as they study science and the natural world, but I'm kinda the opposite.  The more I learn about the universe and how it works, the more I'm convinced that there has to be a god.

Having established that, I'm a Christian because that's what makes the most sense to me.  I've studied other religions and they just don't seem to add up in my mind.  However, I'm not one of those people who believe that every single word of the Bible is straight from God.  It's been passed down, edited, translated, re-edited, redacted, and passed through more hands than can be counted.  To believe that it has remained perfect throughout the whole process is to believe that every translator, editor, etc., was also perfect, and that kinda goes directly against one of the core beliefs of Christianity: the imperfection of humanity!  What we're taught in church is even worse, as half of it is more folklore than Biblical anyway, like the conventional concepts of the afterlife, Heaven, and Hell, which don't even remotely resemble scripture at all.  Basically, I think the Christianity most people believe in is true in the same way as one of those movies that's "based on a true story".  Most of the basics are there, but executive meddling has changed it quite a bit.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #519 on: 4 November 2009, 03:08:09 »
I have to agree with John. The world is too complex to be merely accidental. Some would say that this makes me simple or small-minded, but the truth is that it takes as much faith to believe that God "is, was, and always will be" as it does to believe any of the leading, popular theories concerning the origin of what we perceive as our existence.

Organized religion has definitly had (and still has) its share of... quirks. I subscribe to the belief that those quirks are not God's doing, but Man's. I did go to a private Bible college, but that doesn't mean that I agreed with all that I was taught. That is what God instilled in us - the ability to choose of our free will.

If we are God's creation, aren't you glad he's not a dictator?

Modman: Keep in mind that "atheist" literally means "without god(s)". I am not atheist toward Greek, Roman, or other gods - I am a monotheist. To say that one is atheist toward specific gods defies the very definition of the word. (dictionary nazi out, lol)
« Last Edit: 4 November 2009, 03:16:21 by Hectate »

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #520 on: 4 November 2009, 03:27:44 »
I agree too that the world is too complex to be merely accidental.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #521 on: 4 November 2009, 03:57:51 »
I agree as well.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #522 on: 4 November 2009, 22:15:50 »
First, we should examine what religion has given us, then examine what science has.  Now, I want to make it clear that I am looking for OBJECTIVE benefits, not "but if there weren't Christianity, the world would be in chaos" nonsense which in fact adds nothing to the debate.

Technology is the direct result of science.  Science is all about inquiring into the way the universe works, not saying "god dunnit".  Indeed, the entire premise of irreducible complexity, one of Intelligent Design (ID)'s cornerstone argument (which is quite easily disproved), is to first state that the universe is too unlikely to occur by chance.  They see no alternative to chance, and simply jump to ID.

Scientifically, the belief in God is a hypothesis, not a theory, since there are criteria belief in God does not meet, such as testability.  The God hypothesis, however, creates more problems than it solves.  The Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit explains that the belief in a god as the creator of the universe forms an infinite regress.  This relies on the legitimate question of "Where did God come from?".  By the way, this question is legitimate, because it is completely within the laws of logic.  Once you have identified that god's creator (God B), you must determine the origin of God B.  This pattern continues ad infinitum.  Since all creators are assumed to be at least as complex as their creations, the complexity must also increase, starting from the type of complexity capable of creating a universe like ours.  So God must have formed from another process than creation, for the above reasoning.  Which choice should we choose: pure chance (of a vastly more complex being than ourselves, which means it becomes unfathomably improbable), or by evolution?  I would say that it is vastly more likely that life on Earth evolved from prokaryotic cells, which came from simpler proteins.

Of course, it is important to note that evolution only explains the diversity of life, not its origins.  If you want that, ask a biochemist.

One who has taken a close look at the anthropic principle, an argument commonly used to argue for the presence of a deity, is actually suggests quite the contrary.  The anthropic principle says that if the universe were a horrible, vicious soup of stars and gamma rays and asteroids, there would be no life.  Because there would be no life, no intelligence would exist within the life, and, Wallah!, nobody would observe it.  By this reasoning, the only universes observable from within are those which support life, and so we should not be surprised to be living in a habitable universe.  ID proponents will look at the universe and say "My, how complex it is!  I cannot imagine another way life could be (argument from lack of imagination), and so the universe must be fine tuned!  And who better to do the fine tuning than Yahweh (only because most ID proponents are Christian)!".

Scientists have found about six "settings" the universe must have or it would be vastly different.  The strength of gravity, the strong force, etc. all determine whether the universe will be habitable.  Some scientists say the six are linked together, and so they must be this way.  Regardless, it is likely (but admittedly not for sure only because such a simulation is far far far beyond today's computational capacity) that the numbers were formed during the big bang.  Like an accordion, the universe might condense again, and reform the numbers.  Another theory, the multiverse or "megaverse" theory, suggest near infinite universes are present, each with different conditions.  The anthropic principle, like evolution, work off of the variance in order to explain the world naturalistically.  God Hypotheses, however, having no evidence, rely on social proof, like teaching in Sunday school.

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #523 on: 4 November 2009, 23:47:46 »
The reason why people believe in evolution is because they don't want to believe that there is a god, Why? because if there is a god then you have to obey him or go to hell, and you want to live you sinful live full of pleasures.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #524 on: 4 November 2009, 23:52:52 »
Anyways, evolution is a heavily flawed theory...........
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