Author Topic: Off Topic - Main  (Read 467731 times)

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #525 on: 4 November 2009, 23:54:49 »
Yes I watched over 8 long movies about it, they all disproved it.
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Hectate

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #526 on: 5 November 2009, 03:34:34 »
Interestingly enough I agree with many of your points modman. The reason that I stated that it takes equal faith to believe in ID as to not believe it was for the very reason you indicated. Yes, where could God come from? And, in the same vein, where could have a big bang come from? How deep does that rabbit hole go?

To take it further, how can you say that the same chaotic randomness that could eventually create an observable universe AND observers (us) could not have instead (or also) created a "higher power"?

On another note, you contrast science and religion as if they're mutually exclusive, but I disagree. Science is what we know, the study of fact - certainty. Faith is the belief of something we don't know, uncertainty. They are not exclusive, just opposite. I can't KNOW that God exists (unless He drops by and says hello, I suppose), but I can believe that He does. Does my belief in God affect my knowledge of truth? No.
Yes religions over the years HAVE influnced peoples views and ideas of what is true. But the fact remains that, well, the facts remain. We live in a time where we are constantly learning more about our universe, and I like that. Evolution - also a hypothesis by your definition - has too many contradictions, at least ID is a "Grand Unified" take on things.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #527 on: 5 November 2009, 03:56:11 »
Science is all about inquiring into the way the universe works,
So is religion.
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Indeed, the entire premise of irreducible complexity, one of Intelligent Design (ID)'s cornerstone argument (which is quite easily disproved)
Okay then, go ahead. ;)
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Scientifically, the belief in God is a hypothesis, not a theory, since there are criteria belief in God does not meet, such as testability.
A hypothesis is a testable prediction.  The belief in God is a belief, not a hypothesis.
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The God hypothesis, however, creates more problems than it solves.  The Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit explains that the belief in a god as the creator of the universe forms an infinite regress.  ...  Once you have identified that god's creator (God B), you must determine the origin of God B.  This pattern continues ad infinitum.
You're making two huge and baseless assumptions about space-time here.  Can you guess what they are?
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Since all creators are assumed to be at least as complex as their creations
And why would we assume that?  Given current technological progress, it's only a matter of time before we create something more complex than ourselves.
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Which choice should we choose: pure chance (of a vastly more complex being than ourselves, which means it becomes unfathomably improbable)
Huh?  Trying to figure out the probability of a god existing is like trying to figure out the probability of gravity.  Probability can only be assigned when you have factors that influence the outcome, but God/gravity either exist or they don't.  They're not outcomes of any process or reaction.
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One who has taken a close look at the anthropic principle, an argument commonly used to argue for the presence of a deity, is actually suggests quite the contrary.  The anthropic principle says that if the universe were a horrible, vicious soup of stars and gamma rays and asteroids, there would be no life.  Because there would be no life, no intelligence would exist within the life, and, Wallah!, nobody would observe it.  By this reasoning, the only universes observable from within are those which support life, and so we should not be surprised to be living in a habitable universe.
But why should such a universe exist for us to be able to observe it?  If there's only one universe (and we don't have anything even remotely conclusive that suggests otherwise), why would that one universe happen to be balanced the way it is?  It's a little like betting all your money on one roll on a giant roulette wheel (and by giant, I mean one having possibly billions of numbers) and winning.  While not statistically impossible, it's pretty unlikely to say the least.  I say we should be surprised to exist.
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ID proponents will look at the universe and say "My, how complex it is!  I cannot imagine another way life could be (argument from lack of imagination)
::) Condescending much?  To assume anyone who thinks differently from you only thinks that way from lack of imagination (or intelligence, education, understanding, yadda yadda) is arrogant and close-minded in the extreme.  Besides, I think we should all know by now that I'm nothing if not imaginative. ;)
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Scientists have found about six "settings" the universe must have or it would be vastly different.  The strength of gravity, the strong force, etc. all determine whether the universe will be habitable.  Some scientists say the six are linked together, and so they must be this way.
Don't forget anti-matter.  There's no apparent reason why there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe, and if they were equal, the universe would explode in a perfect 1:1 conversion of matter to energy.  (Yeah, anti-matter is pretty badass like that.) ;D
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Regardless, it is likely (but admittedly not for sure only because such a simulation is far far far beyond today's computational capacity) that the numbers were formed during the big bang.  Like an accordion, the universe might condense again, and reform the numbers.
Pure conjecture.  While it is often proposed that the universe will collapse in on itself and form another big bang, there's no reason why this should change the laws of physics or quantities of anything, especially since it's going to be exactly the same amount of matter and energy as it was the last time (assuming there was a last time) because of conservation of mass and energy, meaning the reaction should be virtually identical.  The explosion might go in a different direction or a different shape or something, but all the same stuff is going to be there.
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God Hypotheses, however, having no evidence, rely on social proof, like teaching in Sunday school.
Ugh... there you go again with this "you only feel that way because you don't know any better" nonsense.  Knock it off already.
The reason why people believe in evolution is because they don't want to believe that there is a god, Why? because if there is a god then you have to obey him or go to hell, and you want to live you sinful live full of pleasures.
Well at least it's not only Modman doing it, then. ::)  Don't presume to know why anyone believes what they believe.  You have your reasons for your beliefs and they have theirs.  It's not necessarily because they want to be hedonists. :P
Anyways, evolution is a heavily flawed theory...........
And this goes to prove the existence of God how?
To take it further, how can you say that the same chaotic randomness that could eventually create an observable universe AND observers (us) could not have instead (or also) created a "higher power"?
Hmm... interesting notion.  It's a little "out there" if you ask me, but still interesting. ;D
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They are not exclusive, just opposite. I can't KNOW that God exists (unless He drops by and says hello, I suppose), but I can believe that He does. Does my belief in God affect my knowledge of truth? No. Yes religions over the years HAVE influnced peoples views and ideas of what is true. But the fact remains that, well, the facts remain. We live in a time where we are constantly learning more about our universe, and I like that. Evolution - also a hypothesis by your definition - has too many contradictions, at least ID is a "Grand Unified" take on things.
I wouldn't say they're opposite.  They're each a search for truth, but they go about it in different ways.  They both start with "okay, so here's what we know..." and progress to "so here's what we think that means".  Each makes observations, collects data, applies logic, makes conclusions, etc.  Basically the only difference is verifiability.  Science can be tested empirically, where religion can't.  That doesn't make it any less valid, though.  Here's another thing we can't test empirically: "Does your mother love you?"  There's no way to find out for sure, but that doesn't mean she does or doesn't, and we can make inferences based on what we see to conclude whether we think she does or doesn't and take it on faith.  I'm totally okay with the fact that we don't have everything figured out for certain, and I think that's one of the things that separates science from religion.  Science can't accept anything without absolute proof, whereas religion can.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #528 on: 5 November 2009, 12:33:40 »
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Quote from: -Archmage- on November 04, 2009, 19:57:40
Anyways, evolution is a heavily flawed theory...........
And this goes to prove the existence of God how?

It wasn't meant to.
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Kung Fu Panda

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #529 on: 5 November 2009, 21:16:55 »
This may be one of my last posts here
modman about the website u gave me its a christian website and u would get a similar result if i showed u one of the Christianity websites. About the "Islamic laws are old" dude u're giving me the feeling that ur not grown up at all no offense i swear. Some freedoms are not good. and thats why I said USA has one of the highest 'crime' rates but however i didn't mean 'crime' when i said that hoping u would understand. See, even christianity has laws that are even worse than some punishments in Islam. Why do nuns where full dresses? they are commanded to do so. Same case here only thing is all women are commanded to wear full dresses. and i CLOSE THIS HERE its gettin us nowhere
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about evolution , in Darwin's book "The origin of species" he himself says that he does not fully believe in the theory. All that made him think of the theory was that the same type of bird had 2 different types of beaks in different habitats. They say 'variation' or changing characteristics i.e features different from parents led to evolution over a loooooong time. Its sufficient to say we never found a SINGLE fossil that was a hybrid of 2 different types of animals for e.g  we never found a 'monkey-man' fossil till now! a more effective argument would be 'If Monkeys became humans, why are there still monkeys?' the fossil of the ant has remained identical for millions of years - why no 'variation' here?
Then they say that it was some radiation that caused it. There was a famous experiment scientists did on fruit-flies. They exposed them to different types of radioactive radiations. All they ended up with was flies with 2 heads, an extra or missing limb or wing, etc - totally not desired.

modman

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #530 on: 5 November 2009, 22:34:08 »
This may be one of my last posts here
That's unfortunate for us all, considering I was attempting a civil debate... 

I am interested in what arguments you have to present, all of you, including Kunng Fu Panda. 

If I sound arrogent, it is my mistake, because I almost never am able to carry on conversations which amount to my previous post with theists, but there are of course exceptions.  Usually the most hospitable are the "intellectuals", which, in the meaning of the word, I consider myself to be.

This may be one of my last posts here
modman about the website u gave me its a christian website and u would get a similar result if i showed u one of the Christianity websites.
I don't recall giving you personally a website, however I showed the Wikipedia page.  I would consider Wikipedia to be secular.

Some freedoms are not good. and thats why I said USA has one of the highest 'crime' rates but however i didn't mean 'crime' when i said that hoping u would understand.
Yes, some freedoms are not good, like the freedom to kill, steal, commit arson, etc.  However, I believe that the rights laid out in the American Constitution are good ones to have, and this is because the framers knew history.  I don't want to go into specifics, but theocracies tend to be especially difficult to have positive foreign relations with.

Hectate

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #531 on: 5 November 2009, 23:55:19 »
This may be one of my last posts here
modman about the website u gave me its a christian website and u would get a similar result if i showed u one of the Christianity websites. About the "Islamic laws are old" dude u're giving me the feeling that ur not grown up at all no offense i swear. Some freedoms are not good. and thats why I said USA has one of the highest 'crime' rates but however i didn't mean 'crime' when i said that hoping u would understand. See, even christianity has laws that are even worse than some punishments in Islam. Why do nuns where full dresses? they are commanded to do so. Same case here only thing is all women are commanded to wear full dresses. and i CLOSE THIS HERE its gettin us nowhere
If you read this, Kung Fu Panda, please understand that Catholic (as in Nuns), does NOT equal Christian. No offense to any Catholics, but there is variance between the definitions. There are as many differences between different Christians as there are between Muslim and Catholics.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #532 on: 6 November 2009, 02:23:49 »
This may be one of my last posts here
modman about the website u gave me its a christian website and u would get a similar result if i showed u one of the Christianity websites. About the "Islamic laws are old" dude u're giving me the feeling that ur not grown up at all no offense i swear. Some freedoms are not good. and thats why I said USA has one of the highest 'crime' rates but however i didn't mean 'crime' when i said that hoping u would understand. See, even christianity has laws that are even worse than some punishments in Islam. Why do nuns where full dresses? they are commanded to do so. Same case here only thing is all women are commanded to wear full dresses. and i CLOSE THIS HERE its gettin us nowhere
If you read this, Kung Fu Panda, please understand that Catholic (as in Nuns), does NOT equal Christian. No offense to any Catholics, but there is variance between the definitions. There are as many differences between different Christians as there are between Muslim and Catholics.
I wouldn't say that.  I think that a better way to say it would be 'there are nearly as many differences between non-catholic denominations of Christianity as there are between Muslims and Catholics.'  Or, you could elaborate, because I know catholic can mean the whole christian church, not just Roman Catholicism.  I mean, there are also some people who will not accept similarities (or even implications of similarities, like yours, because protestantism and roman catholicism are seen as very similar especially to other religions, apparently) between Christianity (especially catholic christianity) and islam.  This is because everybody with some knowledge of history has heard of the muslim european jihads (the ones that captured parts of italy, sicily, turkey and the holy land), the terrible crusades that were caused by those jihads, battles for mediterranean fought between italy and spain and the ottoman turks, and the various (and tediously innumerable) small attacks by both sides in the 20th and 21st centuries.  Because the conflicts were almost exclusively between catholics and extremist muslims (note: I understand that not all muslim peoples are war mongering and can't be contributing members of the global economy), and this apparently makes the muslims (at least the ones I know), hate (or at least despise at the same level) all christians.  My point here is that muslims see chistians (plus the other way around) as entirely different because of the conflicts, even if they aren't.  So try to take that into consideration, because it is hard to understand what he is saying without doing so.

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Why do nuns where full dresses? they are commanded to do so.
This is irrelevant because no one is forced to become a nun.  In your country every woman has to wear the same thing. 

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and i CLOSE THIS HERE its gettin us nowhere
If I am sounding hostile, tell me.  I would not want to sound hostile.  And the reason this is getting us nowhere is that the argument has just begun, so to speak.  Maybe you should try presenting your stance in a different way. 


modman

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #533 on: 6 November 2009, 03:59:57 »
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Why do nuns where full dresses? they are commanded to do so.
This is irrelevant because no one is forced to become a nun.  In your country every woman has to wear the same thing.
I could not have said it better.  In a theocracy, one can expect laws which infringe on the rights of people, and unevenly, and for this reason is it, shall we say, behind the times.  And forgive me for calling Islam old, for Christianity is a third older, but it is old.  What a religion does is transports values from the time it began to the present day, and often dogmatically, at that. :P

in Darwin's book "The origin of species" he himself says that he does not fully believe in the theory.
Please use a direct quote from the book.  This would be more convincing, especially when coupled by page numbers ;).  Also, I am not concerned with personal opinions of scientists.  If you're concerned about personal opinions, only 7% of those belonging to the National Academy of Sciences believe in a personal god, and 99.85% agree with the theory of evolution.  Please don't get me wrong, though: Science is done by facts, mathematics, observations, and, ultimately, evidence, and so is not concerned with popularity.  Everything has to start somewhere, right?

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a more effective argument would be 'If Monkeys became humans, why are there still monkeys?'
This is because monkeys are able to survive.  I know it sounds stupid, but if monkeys were unable to cope with Homo Sapiens, there would be no monkeys!  Additionally, we did not evolve from monkeys.  We have a common descendant with monkeys.  It's like saying you came from your sibling, whereas you came from your parents (please excuse the fact that two humans are necessary for offspring).  So, in a very loose sense of the word, we are brothers of the monkeys.  See http://listverse.com/2009/01/05/top-10-signs-of-evolution-in-modern-man/.

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Then they say that it was some radiation that caused it. There was a famous experiment scientists did on fruit-flies. They exposed them to different types of radioactive radiations. All they ended up with was flies with 2 heads, an extra or missing limb or wing, etc - totally not desired.
Radiation is part of the cause, the other being miscopying of DNA.  You say 'all they ended up with' like it is undesirable.  What was important was the principle, not the immediate result on the (fruit?) flies.  Because of the mutation, which is required by evolution (by the way, if you're looking to disprove evolution, finding no effect here could be part of it, but of course there was an effect), natural selection can occur.  Those flies which had multiple heads would most likely die, and so not produce offspring.  Thus the "bad" flies are eliminated, while flies able to reproduce create more like them.  Additionally, the flies which are able to reproduce more effectively also are benefited.  I don't have time to explain the whole process, but I am presumably not the only one here who understands it.
« Last Edit: 6 November 2009, 04:40:22 by modman »

John.d.h

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #534 on: 6 November 2009, 04:18:07 »
Don't even get me started on Catholicism.  It won't be pretty.
What a religion does is transports values from the time it began to the present day, and often dogmatically, at that. :P
I disagree.  Christianity went against a lot of the established traditions and values of the time, so to say that it was transplanting the values of circa 29AD would be very misleading.  In fact, a lot of Jesus' teachings would be considered progressive even today, almost two millennia later.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #535 on: 6 November 2009, 04:57:12 »
I just looked it up, and Google (via Wikipedia) says that a hypothesis is an explanation for an observed phenomenon.  So in this definition, an explanation using a deity is a hypothesis.

John, do you believe in evolution?

ElimiNator

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #536 on: 6 November 2009, 05:48:20 »
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Only a fool can look at the world and say there is no God.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #537 on: 6 November 2009, 06:43:01 »
Ehh... hypothesis, theory, belief, they all have different definitions depending on who you ask, so we'll go with hypothesis.  Do I believe in evolution?  How could I not?  Based on genetics and heredity, if one generation differs AT ALL from its parents, then it passes on different genes.  Evolution has to happen.  Just look at dog breeding, which is merely a form of forced evolution.  An animal is selected for its particular traits and it passes on those traits to its offspring, who will pass on new and different genes to its offspring, and so on.  The only way that evolution would not happen is if every being was an exact clone of its parent(s), with no genetic variation or mutation whatsoever.  The only way evolution differs from dog breeding is that it's much slower and organisms are selected through whether or not they can survive and mate, rather than by human breeders.  Now, this is a different question entirely from whether or not I believe humans descended from apes.  That's more murky territory, but I won't rule anything out.  Even if you take what Genesis says at face value, that all of Creation was made in six days, you have to take into account that God's sense of time is not the same as ours.  In fact, we have no reason to suspect that God is bound by our understanding of space-time, or even if God exists INSIDE our space-time (that was one of those huge assumptions you were making that I was pointing out earlier ;)).  Overall, the Genesis creation story corresponds quite well with our scientific understanding of the origin of the universe.  If you read through it, you might be surprised at how well things match up.
Quote from: Holy Bible, KJV
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
In the beginning, everything is without form and the whole universe is a big mass of indistinct matter, much like what scientists believe it was like right after the Big Bang.  Then God sorted through the mess and formed it into distinct things.  Our understanding of the Big Bang is that it threw a big mess of matter and energy all over the place, and it gradually coalesced into distinct things like stars, nebulae, and planets as gravity took hold.  You follow so far?  I could go on with the quotes, but I'm sure you can look them up yourself (and probably a more modern translation than the KJV).  Basically, God goes on to separate things even further and form the Earth.  Notice that life is specifically stated as coming from the seas, much like our scientific understanding says.  Then the walking creatures, cattle, beasts, and creeping things develop on land.  Then after the rest of the animals, along comes humanity.  Overall, I'd say Genesis sounds about like 21st-century science from the perspective of someone who lived thousands of years ago.  Basically the only allowance you have to make is that time in the Bible is a lot different than how we think of it.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #538 on: 6 November 2009, 23:52:56 »
Do I believe in evolution?  How could I not?
It's good to know that I'm not the only one who defends this crucial point.  It is important because we can get explanations for things attributed to religion, like morals, directly from evolution.

Quote from: Holy Bible, KJV
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
In the beginning, everything is without form and the whole universe is a big mass of indistinct matter, much like what scientists believe it was like right after the Big Bang.  
It seems like a stretch to me.  I don't think it matches up that well.  Additionally, you would have to assume that "earth" from Genesis means the entire universe.  That verse seems more to me like an assertion that the Earth always existed, and then God shone light on it (um, and why is it necessary to separate light from darkness?  A Newtonian understanding of light is far more than necessary to know that darkness is nothing at all, just an absence of light).  Assuming that is what it really means, it also says that it was void, meaning nothing.  I don't remember how to achieve something from nothing...Additionally, although I may be pressing a bit too hard, it asserts that the "earth" (the word has lost considerable meaning by now) had water on it in "the beginning", which scientists believe to be impossible due to the heat of the earth at the time.

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Only a fool can look at the world and say there is no God.
>:( >:( >:( That is completely unhelpful, and to add insult to injury, it is in need of citation, meaning there's no one to say you didn't make that up yourself.  It is at best misguided and without explanation, and at worst insulting.  For a case in point, replace "there is no god" with "the name of god is Allah".  Your life would be at risk (of course I mean far more than it is normally).  Or, to see my point of view, replace it with "that god had a son who was born of a virgin and was executed but came back from the dead after 3 days in order to be a scapegoat for the sins which man committed or was yet to commit."

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Overall, I'd say Genesis sounds about like 21st-century science from the perspective of someone who lived thousands of years ago.  Basically the only allowance you have to make is that time in the Bible is a lot different than how we think of it.
It is too generic to be thought of that way.  Obviously, we should not expect people of that time to understand the Big Bang, but something mentioning evolution later on would have been nice.  I was brought up as a Christian, and so I know Genesis in a general sense.  And I know a literal interpretation of Genesis is Creationism (for which ID is a Trojan horse).  I think it would be possible to find this effect in other creation myths.  For example, the Chinese creation myth:

In the beginning , the heavens and earth were still one and all was chaos. The universe was like a big black egg, carrying Pan Gu inside itself. After 18 thousand years Pan Gu woke from a long sleep. He felt suffocated, so he took up a broadax and wielded it with all his might to crack open the egg. The light, clear part of it floated up and formed the heavens, the cold, turbid matter stayed below to form earth. Pan Gu stood in the middle, his head touching the sky, his feet planted on the earth. The heavens and the earth began to grow at a rate of ten feet per day, and Pan Gu grew along with them. After another 18 thousand years, the sky was higher, the earth thicker, and Pan Gu stood between them like a pillar 9 million li in height so that they would never join again.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #539 on: 6 November 2009, 23:56:53 »
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Only a fool can look at the world and say there is no God.
Angry Angry Angry That is completely unhelpful, and to add insult to injury, it is in need of citation, meaning there's no one to say you didn't make that up yourself.  It is at best misguided and without explanation, and at worst insulting.  For a case in point, replace "there is no god" with "the name of god is Allah".  Your life would be at risk (of course I mean far more than it is normally).  Or, to see my point of view, replace it with "that god had a son who was born of a virgin and was executed but came back from the dead after 3 days in order to be a scapegoat for the sins which man committed or was yet to commit."

No Elim is right, there must be a god, explain to us all how there couldn't be a god.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #540 on: 7 November 2009, 00:31:10 »
Too lazy to read the first post, saw the topic name and got interested...We can talk whatever we want here? :D

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #541 on: 7 November 2009, 00:32:01 »
Yes, but try not to interupt long discussions here with anything stupid.
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #542 on: 7 November 2009, 03:39:43 »
*facepalm*  You cannot just ignore my previous post!  You reply nothing to my comment that agreement with Eliminator's comment arrogantly calls every atheist a fool, without any justification.  Now, my tone may have been arrogant before, but it was nowhere near calling of names...I would recommend you both recant, in the form of deletion of posts, before I feel the need to assume it wasn't a mistake.

Actually, Bertrand Russel, in his teapot analogy, asserts the burden of proof falls on the theist (or deist, for that matter, although atheists tend to get along with deists well) for proving their deity exists.  Additionally, in all fairness, they should also be required to prove it is their deity, not the god of the Aborigines or the Aztec.

OK, I will strike a bargain.  I will as soon disprove the existence of Yahweh as you disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Oh, and for a list of arguments which attempt to disprove God, follow this link.  Feel free, in fact I encourage you to, look at the arguments which attempt to do the opposite, but you will find none I could not demolish.

Because I think what you are doing is not debating, Arch, you are waiting me out, considering nothing I say, and slinging mud in the process.  All that accomplishes is that it gives you muddy hands and solidifies my belief that few theists are able to engage in civil debate, using logic, not politics.  This suggests they are not interested in changing their beliefs, should appropriate amounts of evidence arise, but to the contrary.  Please try to improve this behavior.  A suggestion would be that you present some evidence to support your position.  It shouldn't be that hard, given it is "obvious" as Eliminator asserts.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #543 on: 7 November 2009, 04:09:00 »
I wish I had a desk right now.  It's hard to *headdesk* without one.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #544 on: 7 November 2009, 19:05:27 »
*facepalm*  You cannot just ignore my previous post!  You reply nothing to my comment that agreement with Eliminator's comment arrogantly calls every atheist a fool, without any justification.  Now, my tone may have been arrogant before, but it was nowhere near calling of names...I would recommend you both recant, in the form of deletion of posts, before I feel the need to assume it wasn't a mistake.

Actually, Bertrand Russel, in his teapot analogy, asserts the burden of proof falls on the theist (or deist, for that matter, although atheists tend to get along with deists well) for proving their deity exists.  Additionally, in all fairness, they should also be required to prove it is their deity, not the god of the Aborigines or the Aztec.

OK, I will strike a bargain.  I will as soon disprove the existence of Yahweh as you disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Oh, and for a list of arguments which attempt to disprove God, follow this link.  Feel free, in fact I encourage you to, look at the arguments which attempt to do the opposite, but you will find none I could not demolish.

Because I think what you are doing is not debating, Arch, you are waiting me out, considering nothing I say, and slinging mud in the process.  All that accomplishes is that it gives you muddy hands and solidifies my belief that few theists are able to engage in civil debate, using logic, not politics.  This suggests they are not interested in changing their beliefs, should appropriate amounts of evidence arise, but to the contrary.  Please try to improve this behavior.  A suggestion would be that you present some evidence to support your position.  It shouldn't be that hard, given it is "obvious" as Eliminator asserts.
(Note: Your link is broken to me modman - proxy page or something?)

I suppose the above is why it has been said that, while in polite company, not to speak of religion or politics.  Yes, it can be difficult to have a logical conversation when no relevant commentary has been provided by one of the parties. I certainly do attempt to do so myself. Arch & Elim are both willing to stand up for what they believe just as modman and John are, and I respect that just as much as I am able to both agree and disagree with any person that has participated in this conversation. I've had longer conversations concerning the subjects we've discussed here, but time is always short for me (I work 2 jobs) and I cannot reply in the length I desire. For those willing to continue the discussion, please continue.

Also, LOL @ Arch about long discussions and stupid etc. However, since GlestNewb has yet to receive an informative response I'd like to address the following to him.
GlestNewb: Yes, you may post whatever you like within the bounds of the rules of this forum. Many forums have an off-topic sub-forum, but to promote discussion and development directly related to Glest, the moderators have opted for a single thread instead. I understand that, over time, it is likely a second one will be opened and this one closed. Large threads tend to bog down forum software.

And on a completely off-topic note (or maybe since it's off-topic it's actually on-topic here! What a paradox, my head - it hurts!  ;) ) I have something of note! The following is posted from Slashdot, forgive the gratuitous copy + paste.

Quote from: slashdot.org
"Just a week after Unity announced its engine is now available for
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http://unity3d.com/company/news/unity2.6-press.htm  free to indie users, Epic Games has revealed a free version of http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/61138  its popular Unreal Engine technology. Called the Unreal Development Kit
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http://www.udk.com/  (UDK), it is a free edition of UE3 that allows community, modder and indie users more access to the engine's features and is available for all. Epic said game developers, students, hobbyists, researchers, creators of 3D visualizations and simulations plus digital filmmakers can all take advantage of the UDK for non-commercial use. The UDK site also offers detailed product features, technical documentation http://udn.epicgames.com/ , commercial licensing terms and support resources."

I'm really excited about this. The cool thing is that (supposedly) it would be possible to port or remake Glest in the Unreal3 engine! Additionally, the engine has support for so many features that we've only ever dreamed of having, even in GAE. Please, discuss!
« Last Edit: 10 April 2016, 15:55:05 by filux »

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #545 on: 7 November 2009, 19:15:38 »
Quote
Quote from: slashdot.org
"Just a week after Unity announced its engine is now available for
Code: [Select]
http://unity3d.com/company/news/unity2.6-press.htm  free to indie users, Epic Games has revealed a free version of http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/61138  its popular Unreal Engine technology. Called the Unreal Development Kit
Code: [Select]
http://www.udk.com/  (UDK), it is a free edition of UE3 that allows community, modder and indie users more access to the engine's features and is available for all. Epic said game developers, students, hobbyists, researchers, creators of 3D visualizations and simulations plus digital filmmakers can all take advantage of the UDK for non-commercial use. The UDK site also offers detailed product features, technical documentation http://udn.epicgames.com/ , commercial licensing terms and support resources."

I'm really excited about this. The cool thing is that (supposedly) it would be possible to port or remake Glest in the Unreal3 engine! Additionally, the engine has support for so many features that we've only ever dreamed of having, even in GAE. Please, discuss!

Awesome!
I don't really know what else to say.........just awesome!
Oh wait, what would happen to the way we mod, would there be different code or are we keeping the data practically the same.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2016, 15:57:52 by filux »
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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #546 on: 7 November 2009, 20:17:36 »
It'd probably require starting from scratch. I've not had a chance to read any documentation (or even download it), but I suspect that many existing Glest assets (except perhaps small amounts of artwork, sounds, etc) are incompatible with the Unreal3 engine. It might be possible to do some exporting of unit models and animations but all the code would have to be completely redone.

The benefits to redoing it includes taking advantage of the existing multiplayer code from U3, visual effects like shaders and particles, as well as 100% custom terrain creation. Things like amphibious, land, air, and water units wouldn't be difficult either. U3 already has vehicles for multiplayer games (FPS) so things like bunkers and walls, mannable weapons should be easy also!

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #547 on: 8 November 2009, 00:55:21 »
Seems to me like it would be easier to just look at how their engine does those things and then integrate it into ours, but my programming knowledge doesn't go much further than "Hello world!".

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #548 on: 8 November 2009, 01:34:03 »
Sorry, the source isn't open. The tools and engine is a free license for non-commercial use. And it's windows only. Still, I'm interested to see what'll be done with it.

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Re: Off Topic - Main
« Reply #549 on: 8 November 2009, 11:01:59 »
Ok, you want to start on religion? You've started a big fire here. I'm going back to addressing this to modman and other atheists.

Firstly, science says that it is only by incredible luck that the universe exists. According to science, if there was just one difference in the weight of an atom, the universe may never have occurred. It just seems to impossible for me to believe that we are here by a chance slimmer than winning the lottery twice in a row. I'm not a big believer in luck or coincidences, so it seems that something else played a hand in our existence.

Why is it that people find it so hard to believe what they cannot see? Can you see oxygen? Yet you need it to survive. I'll take it you'll accept the fact that it exists. You say you are a man of science, so I'll assume that you believe oxygen exists, even though you cannot see it. But you can see what it does, can't you? So is the same with god. For some reason, people always seem to have trouble believing what they cannot see, or what they believe impossible. For example, I cannot understand how a hypnotist does what he does. It boggles my mind completely. I cannot understand it, yet I believe it works. Just because you cannot see or understand it does not mean that it does not exist.

On another point, the main reason that people apparently don't believe in god appears to be because they do not claim to see what he does in the world. If a catholic man was killed in a driving accident, they state that that is a sign that either our god is either helpless, uncaring, or non-existant. I think the simplest way to explain this is from an excerpt from 'Angels and Demons', in my own words:
"If you had a son, would you love him? Would you do everything in your power to prevent pain in his life?" Naturally, you would, but now answer this, "Would you let him skateboard?" You would probably, just giving him a few basic tips and letting him learn, correct? "What if he fell and skinned his knee?" He would have to learn to be more careful. So in short, we give him a few basic pointers to get him started, then let him learn from his mistakes, correct? Exactly.

You know, in a travel agents office, I read this poster for something very interesting (just a small example). It was about a town in Europe that, during the bubonic plague, prayed a vow to god that they would perform a play of Jesus's death every ten years if he spared their village from the black death. Not one person became infected with the black death, and they've been performing for hundreds of years. I think this is it
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[url=http://www.passionplay2010.org/?cat=2]here[/url].

Regardless of what a religion believes as a god, they all teach the same values: to love one another, to treat everyone fairly, not to steal, not to lust, not to murder, etc, etc; Religion keeps society organized.

On the topic of Jesus, do you believe Jesus once existed? Science cannot even deny the evidence of him and his disciples. So, how do you explain curing of a blind man? Can science make a blind man see? Can you? Can you not see any other way that that is possible except by the fact that there must be a god to do so? Do you really think a man could do all the things that he did without the help from god?

Why are these things so hard to believe. You asked us to prove the existence of god? I ask you to prove he does not exist!
« Last Edit: 10 April 2016, 15:59:05 by filux »
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