New unit ideas for Magitech

[modman]

This is an extension of the post here by Gameboy:

https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=4107.msg22146#msg22146.  I will keep track of all ideas in this initial post, and please try to get the general idea across in your post too (pictures help a lot!).  If we ever get to the point of making these units, the specifics of the stats should be discussed here too.  Ideas so far (including my own):
Note: Repeats are bolded; if you think your idea is NOT a repeat, please let me know.

Tech
•   Watch Tower- a stone defence tower, either promoted from Defence Tower or built with an upgrade, like "masonry" maybe
•   Quintain- I wish building more of these could strenghthen your knights, but oh well...
•   Knight-not promoted from Horseman, replacing Horseman and only gotten in late-game, which would help with balance
•   Pikeman
•   Longbowman- Produced outright from the Barracks and/or promoted from an Archer
•   Crossbowman- Same as Longbowman except longer loading time, less distance, but almost twice the attack damage
•   Trebuchet- I tried out this idea in Tech 2 (now dead), and this would only work with a better AI.  It might pack up and then be able to move; just an idea
•   Sakir- a simple cannon
•   Mechanon- really big Battle Machine (I think ???)
•   Tank- DiVinci style, slower than Knight (which is slightly slower than a Horseman) but medium range and a big splash
•   Helicopter- Also produced in Aerodrome; faster than Airship and can attack land&air, but less HP and range.
•   Maceman
•   Axe thrower
•   Monk- fights with a quarterstaff, produced in monestary
•   Priest- Heals very well, has positive eminations when they are implemented into Glest
•   Mantlet- High emenations, meant to simulate blocking of arrows and such to nearby units
•   Battering Ram[/li][/list]
•   Ramjet
•   Cannon- Simply a huge stationary, high power defensive unit, like early cannons
•   Knight- same as above, but promoted from Horseman, and Horseman stays

Magic
•   Farcaster- a mage who can summon units
•   Satyr- Goat-man armed with a lance
•   Del-Dar- siege unit, created by Gameboy
•   Dread Lord- These guys train units and have a massive attack
•   Manticore- a creature from greek mythology who shoots arrows
•   Shade- A creature who sucks souls from enemies. Has a special attack that kills instantly
•   Cerberus- A three-headed dog with a menacing melee attack and a special long range attack in which it barks very loudly
•   Centaur- Faster than Horseman; has a battleaxe and high metal armor
•   Minotaur- Fast charge speed, but slower than Centaur.  High armor, has an axe, but slow attack speed.
•   Basilisk (Cockatrice)- Picture
•   Basilisk Egg- Promotes to Basilisk, of course!  Summoned by summoner.  I suggest that the upgrade "dragon call" be required for the Basilisk Egg.
•   Wicca Ring- Barracks for Magic.  Magic dearly (and clearly) needs this; makes all new ground units, unless otherwise mentioned
•   Baphomet- This would be a super-powerful mage for Magic made in the Wicca Ring.  It would be slow, however, because its big wings drag it down.*
•    Bahamut- This unit is morphed from the Baphomet.  It can fly and is very, very strong.  It is slower than a Dragon.*
•   Beast Rider- powerful melee attack; morphed from Dread Lord ??? or Summoner.  Picture*
•   Grave digger- This one is straight from Hell.  Probably twice as powerful as Behemoth, also much faster because it can run at you* picture
•   Killer- also created in Magical Barracks, swings chain axe and has low armor.  This unit might also promote from a Daemon. Picture*[/li][/list]
*I suggest units marked with this symbol require "Hellgate"


Tech tree diagram[/list]

[modman]

Maybe the del-dar looks like this ???:

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[img]http://www.tcpaintingstudios.com/Images/GSWHFB/pic01%20(35).jpg[/img]
I would define a siege unit as "any mobile unit in Glest with a ranged attack and high splash, especially those with impact damage" (siege units are devastating against buildings then).  This would then include Archmages and Dragons as well then.  In that case, Magic is fine with siege, because I don't think that just because Tech's unit is named a Catapult, it doesn't necessarily mean it fits the definition at all; it didn't need to have a splash.

All of that aside, I like the idea, although I hope it will be more effective than Tech's Catapult because it is both slow and very vulnerable to both melee and siege, and to itself! (splash usually ends un hurting it).  But watch out if it gets to your town.

[John.d.h]

One of the pictures is missing from the OP.  I think before we decide on new units, we need to figure out what niches are left unfilled.  Does one faction have any units that the other faction can't effectively counter?  If so, that's something that needs to be fixed.

[gameboy]

I was thinking of the del-dar to be a sort of creature from the underworld.
The Dread Lord summons Dreads, what a dread is, is still left to figure out.
Magic Barracks - Dark School
I was thinking we could remove hell-gate as an upgrade, but make it a building. We could then train all your underworld creatures from there.

[modman]

@johndh: Yes, one of the pictures you have to either refresh the page or follow its link.  I'll try to fix the problem.  I think this requires a comprehensive classification of the types of units there are in each faction.  I have taken the liberty to do so previously, out of an interest.  Hopefully I'll have enough time to post it.  But once the units are classified, it is easy to see both factions' weaknesses and strengths.

@Gameboy: I like having the hellgate as an upgrade; no offence.  I have a faction diagram below of what I hope Magic will be like when it is completed.  I'll have Tech done in a bit.


Sorry, Gameboy, but some of the units you wanted I didn't know much about, so I didn't know where to put them and thus discluded them.

[gameboy]

My units are for you to edit they have no story behind them.
You can create a story for it you want to.
The nature of the unit is for anyone to create, they can be and anything you like.

[modman]

Question: Do we want to go the route of the elementals?  I've made the Tech extended diagram, and Magic could certainly use a few more units!

If you don't know what elementals are, I was thinking of an ice mage, water mage, earth mage, and fire mage, which all could be produced from a building.  I'm thinking if the previous is OK, then I would call the building something like an element tower.

[John.d.h]

I was thinking of an ice mage, water mage, earth mage, and fire mage

While I have nothing against the idea of using the elements, I think having four different kinds of mages seems kinda pointless.  They probably wouldn't be different enough from each other to really justify their existence.  Maybe have one unit called an Elementalist who (this would only work with GAE...) could do different elemental effects, like a fireball attack, an earthen protection spell, freezing wind that slows enemy units, and um... well Idk what you'd do for water.  Barring that, he/she could summon a unit from each element, like a giant badger, a sea serpent, a fiery salamander, and some sort of wind unit.

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[img]http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/GPMMC/Animal/Dire Badger-Front.JPG[/img]
Dire Badger from D&D and Blue Dragons from Atlantica (which I've been spending way too much time playing as of late).

[modman]

I appreciate the fact that 1) you're not blatently opposed to my ideas and 2) you have your own.  That #1 is really great because I know what needs to be changed in actuality or in concept.

The way I had it to work out, each of the mages could morph into two others.  So if you look back at the circle, water (I'm making it ice because that's cooler) would be able to morph to both wind and earth, but not fire.  Wind would be able to morph into both fire and ice, but not earth.  Each element would also have its own strengths and weaknesses, but I don't quite have that perfectly worked out yet. 

Also, I was thinking that each of the mages could also summon a pet of their element type, but there will be no morphing among pets.

Thanks for the feedback, john; I really appreciate it!

[@kukac@]

I don't know if it helps, but the hungarians  had 3 elements (air, water, earth), and 3 energy types (fire, electricity/lightning, force[aka elemental force]). But we also adopted that 4 type kind of element list. 

[wciow]

   a giant badger...  Dire Badger from D&D

  I've always thought badgers were cute not scary!
If I had giant badger I would probly just use it to ride instead of a car.

[modman]

I don't doubt you...not to insult you in or in any way disrespect you, but I as an American I don't believe I am fully versed on Hungarian history.  OK, never mind.  "Hungary is one of the oldest countries in Europe" from the Wikipedia page.  The classical elements were in full swing when it was formed from the rubble of the Roman empire.  Think about it!  Rome was so powerful that when it fell, it cast the western world back a thousand years!  Amazing.  Anyhow, back on topic, I need help with the strengths and weaknesses of each of the four mages (ice, wind, fire, earth) and also what pets they should summon.  This ablility to morph back and forth should add another demention to the game in just the mages.

[John.d.h]

I appreciate the fact that 1) you're not blatently opposed to my ideas and 2) you have your own.  That #1 is really great because I know what needs to be changed in actuality or in concept.

Yeah, I've always thought "This idea sucks, so you should do something else instead!" was never a very helpful tip.  I guess that's the difference between regular criticism and the constructive kind.

The way I had it to work out, each of the mages could morph into two others.  So if you look back at the circle, water (I'm making it ice because that's cooler) would be able to morph to both wind and earth, but not fire.  Wind would be able to morph into both fire and ice, but not earth.

So if the water mage wanted to morph into fire, couldn't he just use air or earth as a middle step?  It looks like a pretty superficial restriction to me.

Each element would also have its own strengths and weaknesses, but I don't quite have that perfectly worked out yet.

Earth: High defense, slow-moving, crushing attack; Fire: Strong attack, weak defense; Water: Well-rounded, ice attack; Air: Fast-moving, low defense, lightning attack.

Also, I was thinking that each of the mages could also summon a pet of their element type, but there will be no morphing among pets.

That doesn't sound too bad.

Thanks for the feedback, john; I really appreciate it!

You're quite welcome.

I've always thought badgers were cute not scary!
If I had giant badger I would probly just use it to ride instead of a car.

Fine, how about a giant boar?

[modman]

The "superficial" restriction is in place because it doesn't allow you to morph into an opposite.  Fire to Water just doesn't make sense.  The second reason is so that you might think ahead, because although I want the morph times to be relatively quick (ten seconds for each I think is reasonable), I also want the player to think ahead.

What you started to explain was what I was getting at in terms of differences between the mages.  But there are also fields to keep in mind, attack strengths...If it's not that many differences, the player may just decide not to morph and use what he has; defeating the purpose.

[gameboy]

Okay, I fine with the elementals though they need some more thought.
Some of the units you mentioned don't fit in the magic style of playing. And the Minotaur and Centaur are kinda greek.
I couldn't help to notice the Far-caster Chamber doesn't train a Far-caster, and why does it train those units? WE NEED A NEW BUILDING NAME.
The grave digger could digger for some dark creature.

[John.d.h]

What you started to explain was what I was getting at in terms of differences between the mages.  But there are also fields to keep in mind, attack strengths...If it's not that many differences, the player may just decide not to morph and use what he has; defeating the purpose.

Yeah, differentiation is key here.  The Earth mage could be a short-range armored unit while Air could be fast hit-and-run fighters.  Water (or ice) doesn't seem like a powerful offensive force (sure, there are floods, but it takes A LOT of water to do much damage), so the Water mage could be more of a support unit with healing powers.  Fire would obviously (to me, anyway) have a strong attack and pretty weak defense.  Alternatively, you could switch it around and make Fire the healer.  After all, nothing is better for cauterizing a wound (the gunpowder scene from Rambo, anybody?).

[modman]

I like that "dark creature" idea, Gameboy.  But really, the grave digger was called a cerrunos by Tucho on his site, and that is not because it means anything in Spanish (according to Google Translate!).  I'm OK with changing its name to cerrunos again.  Objections?

I would appreciate you elaborating on this "dark creature" idea, Gameboy.  Seriously, though, don't be worried about being too geeky (hey, it was good enough for a Disney movie and famous book (Lion, Which and Wardrobe)) because Glest's audiesnce primarily is already.

[gameboy]

The Dark Creature could be the Dread Lord who can summon Shades.
About the elementals thingy, I think each of the elements have to be unlocked by building some buildings.
1) FIRE: A thing like Titi's energy source without the thing in the middle but with only the fingers meeting at the center.
2) EARTH: A garden or a grove.
3) WATER: A fountain
4) SKY: A immobile cloud. in other words a building in the air field (bet nobody thought of that before).

[John.d.h]

I think each of the elements have to be unlocked by building some buildings.

That's a pretty cool idea, I think.

1) FIRE: A thing like Titi's energy source without the thing in the middle but with only the fingers meeting at the center.

Or a furnace.

2) EARTH: A garden or a grove.
3) WATER: A fountain

I like.

4) SKY: A immobile cloud. in other words a building in the air field (bet nobody thought of that before).

While a building in the air does sound interesting, would a ground-based worker be able to build it?

[modman]

I would have to say I'm a bit skeptical on having four buildings, unless you guys could come up with something that is produced from the buildings (like at least three units each building).  Wow, that will take quite a while to get those units, too!  And for the AI, probably two hours under optimal conditions.

New version (2) of Extended Magic diagram! 



New stuff is glowing; I added "farcasting" as an upgrade so you would have to work a little to get the farcaster.

I encorporated your suggestions, but not the dread lord.  I forgot, and I have yet to find a good description of either the shades (I know they're like phantoms) or the dread lord.  How about some concept art?  Also, I know a farcaster is a type of wizard/mage, but I can find no concept art.  Help!

I also want to encorporate into this topic some of the stuff from Titi's Should we Tune Tech? topic.

[gameboy]

These buildings could be as big as the energy source and also give you energy.
Description of my units will come soon.

[John.d.h]

Modman, I think there are a few things wrong with your diagram.  That is, some of your units are on there twice.

Also, since having four new buildings would provide a lot of clutter, I favor having one building (Modman calls it the Elemental Tower, but I prefer Elemental Nexus) and have each of the elements as an upgrade to be researched.

[modman]

Oh, the second fire magus is supposed to be a wind magus.  Elemental nexus sounds fine to me.  Upgrades sound better definately than buildings, too.

[modman]

I think that there will be two upgrades instead of four; one will allow ice and fire, one will allow wind and earth.

[modman]

I would like to promote this project because I think that true "Glesters" are losing interest in playing because of the lack of new material; all of the new units would certainly generate interest!  Also, if the factions were to grow to the size induced by the extra units, Glest would soon gain attention in the international gaming community.

Tell me if you do not agree?

I need lots of contributions for this project to happen, so please help!