Author Topic: Balancing Factions  (Read 2813 times)

modman

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Balancing Factions
« on: 24 February 2009, 03:48:32 »
I was researching, and I found this: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=441784
I would like to have a discussion on how to mathematically balance Glest factions.  Mictes mentioned this, but he doesn't post as much anymore.

Probably the best method is giving each faction points, and dividing totals by costs and stuff.  The pitfall is accurately assigning points.

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #1 on: 24 February 2009, 08:52:31 »
While you might be able to use math as a base for balancing your factions, I don't think it would really be all that effective.  You wouldn't be able to take into account what units work well with others, like the combination of the Ornithopter and the Battle Machine, or lots of other things.  Warlords 2 lets you pick which units to include in your faction during custom games and it works quite well, but that's a much simpler game where units have about three statistics each and combat strategy simply amounts to which units you put up front and which ones you put in the back, so whether you have a minotaur or a treant really doesn't make that much of a difference.  In Glest, you have to take into account HP, EP, attack strength, attack speed, attack type, movement speed, sight radius, cost, production speed, armor strength, armor type --the list goes on-- and all of these things can interact in unexpected combinations.

Long story short: I think the only way to balance your factions is to test them against each other.

wciow

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #2 on: 24 February 2009, 09:53:02 »
A mathematical formula might help to balance factions when they are AI controlled. Whilst it may be helpful in initially working out a faction, IMO playtesting with real players is the only way to put the final tweaks in.

Once the humans brain gets involved it will quickly find a way to exploit certain strategies. Just look at commercial RTS games, even after 1000's of hours of testing most still have to receive balance patches once players find the strength and weaknesses of different sides.
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titi

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #3 on: 24 February 2009, 15:22:51 »
I also think balancing can not be made by calculation in our case.
You must balance the factions for human and for AI needs and this has to be done manually, probabaly a bit supported by some tricks and calculations.

The whole balance you get is very sensitive! If you only tweek a very little bit at the AIs behaviour, all this balancing work is lost.
You can see this when you try a GAE version with autorepair enabled for the AI.
The similar thing happens when a player finds a "bug" in your balance.
From that point he will be the winner all the time and the balance is gone.
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Omega

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #4 on: 26 February 2009, 00:40:42 »
There's other factors too. For example, if one faction has range long enough to kill the foe without even being attacked, or if one has all the same defense type or the same attack type, they'll be at a disadvantage.

Another thing is how the AI plays it differently from the computer. Of course, Glest's AI has some problems (elves, the original military, etc;)
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modman

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #5 on: 26 February 2009, 01:54:37 »
I would disagree that it's the AI's fault, because I think it has more to do with the resources used; this is a problem though.
I was hoping this topic would evoke Mictes' two cents because he thought of the idea first...oh well.

-Archmage-

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #6 on: 28 February 2009, 14:44:02 »
i would agree with modman and mictes cause in elves it's a different resource structure and i don't think the AI know how to handle that.
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Omega

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #7 on: 1 March 2009, 10:57:15 »
Whoa, whoa, whoa...

Are we talking about balancing factions or AI problems?

For balancing, an algorithm would be almost impossible because of the complexity of mods.

For AI problems, I believe the entire problem resolves around the grace resource in elves. After doing some modding to balance out the elves mod (see the proper thread) I believe that the computer cannot handle the way grace is made (dunno why). The AI log seems to have a very confused AI who is trying to figure out how to stabilize its base and make resources. At least it uses trees right...
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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #8 on: 1 March 2009, 14:50:43 »
how about you design grace like the tree(fountains of grace of something)
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gameboy

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #9 on: 1 March 2009, 15:17:12 »
Please do not stray off topic, we are talking about balancing factions here, not my elf faction.
And fountain of grace doesn't make sense.

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Re: Balancing Factions
« Reply #10 on: 1 March 2009, 15:19:03 »
yea i know just a crazy idea ::)
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