Author Topic: 0 A.D. goes open source  (Read 7654 times)

Hectate

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0 A.D. goes open source
« on: 15 July 2009, 21:18:40 »
As seen on slashdot, I thought a few of us would be curious about this. Glest is even mentioned and linked at the bottom of the page in reference to other open source RTS games.

http://os.wildfiregames.com/
and
http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/

and a blurb for the curious.

What is 0 A.D.?

0 A.D. is a free, cross-platform, under-development, 3D, historically-based, real-time strategy game.

What are you doing?

Switching from a closed development process to open source: making the code available as GPL and the art content available as CC-BY-SA, and encouraging external contributions. We've been working on 0 A.D. in our free time for years, and now we want to show what we've achieved and make it easier for more people to get involved.

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #1 on: 15 July 2009, 23:29:55 »
Nice, thanks.
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silnarm

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #2 on: 15 July 2009, 23:44:29 »
Yeah, I checked them out when gAMeboy announced he was 'defecting' :)

Absolutely gorgeous graphics...

I'm probably going to adapt the hierarchical pathfinder for them, but I have some suspicions as to why it's been under development for 6 years and does next to nothing yet... 10 MB of source... bloatware... For reference, my current working copy of GAE is less than 2 MB.
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Mark

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #3 on: 16 July 2009, 00:27:35 »
Do you know how i can download 0 A.D.?  It looks really cool and I would like to play it.

Hectate

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #4 on: 16 July 2009, 01:30:11 »
Click the links at the top post. You'll have to ask the 0AD team that question.

silnarm

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #5 on: 16 July 2009, 02:17:58 »
Do you know how i can download 0 A.D.?  It looks really cool and I would like to play it.

Not easily... there is no packaged download... because there is no package... because there isn't really anything to play...

If you wanted to see it you could do a SVN checkout, but it's 330MB of files, and retrieving them with SVN will add a lot of overhead, so the total download size will be substantially bigger than this. Add to that the fact that their SVN server will bug out numerous times... I had to do a SVN 'update' about 12 times after the initial checkout to get everything, which got a bit tedious :) It was fast though :) :)

But there's not much to see except some beautiful graphics, which you can see screenshots of on the web, which might be a bit easier :)
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Mark

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #6 on: 16 July 2009, 18:49:41 »
Okay, I wasn't able to see any info on it, but from your comment i am assuming it is still a work in progress.  I have no idea how they get those eye popping graphics without the lag that should accompany it.  (Or maybe it does lag, IDK).

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #7 on: 16 July 2009, 20:24:28 »
Been following this for quite a while, can't wait to try it out!

Since they are now open source can anyone give me some rough facts and figures on how they are making the 'eye-popping graphics'?

I've seen some of the promo shots and their models are actually quite low poly but pro quality in all areas  :o so I'm guessing its mostly on the artistic side rather than the technical.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2009, 21:07:32 by wciow »
Check out my new Goblin faction - https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=9658.0

silnarm

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #8 on: 16 July 2009, 23:23:20 »
I can't say much with certainty about their graphics, but their rendering engine is clearly much more sophisticated than Glest's, and of course the quality of the models and textures is top notch, helped by the fact that they are probably doing bump mapping and other fancy stuff that Glest doesn't do.

I had a little bit more of look at it this morning, and I may have judged harshly earlier, almost half of the source is actually for the tools, and one of them, Atlas, is rather impressive.

Atlas is the Map/Scenario editor, and would have many people here drooling on their keyboards...

It's got much more than just a cool name!
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #9 on: 17 July 2009, 12:16:46 »
Awesome! sounds great, I'm gonna try this game as soon as it comes out!
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #10 on: 19 July 2009, 19:06:54 »
really nice graphics. a bit slow for me but i have ati on linux so that's more or less normal. gameplay is like age of empires with some parts taken from age of mythology, no god powers but heroes and villages to be taken over.

one other nice detail: most units have different skins, so if you produce some hoplites they don't look exactly the same, especially the shields. really impressve stuff.

"sadly" you can only try one faction and there is no ai.

gameboy

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #11 on: 20 July 2009, 09:23:51 »
it awesome, theres no bump mapping btw. the graphics is are good becuase the whole thing is very organised and they know what they're doing, the art has been done abt a hundred times.
i'm mostly working on the fauna and GUI icons, but i 've asked a lot of questions :) so if u want to know anything u can ask me :D
BTW there are two factions released the Hellenes(greek) and the Celt, try a different map and u might see.

Philip

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #12 on: 24 July 2009, 17:50:18 »
Speaking as one of the programmers on 0 A.D. (having only just discovered this forum):

I'm probably going to adapt the hierarchical pathfinder for them
Hmm, did you ask about pathfinding on our IRC channel a while ago? I remember somebody talking about something, but it's all a bit of a blur now :). I might be repeating stuff that's already known, but anyway: As far as I'm aware, the pathfinder currently in our game is very primitive (just doing some kind of A*); we have some newer code that uses some kind of triangulation approach, but it relies on a non-Free library for some maths stuff, so we've disabled it now (with the plan being to maybe rewrite the parts of that library we need or get it released under a free license, and/or rewrite the pathfinder entirely if there's a better approach).

This seems like an area where it'd be great to collaborate with Glest, if our requirements are similar enough for that to work. I know approximately nothing about Glest's code, but since we've finally moved to open source it'd be good to see if some sharing of ideas or code would be possible.

Quote
I had to do a SVN 'update' about 12 times after the initial checkout to get everything, which got a bit tedious
The SVN server was a little busy (it peaked at about 30Mbit/sec and has had a terabyte of traffic in the past two weeks, which is an 'interesting' challenge to cope with when I've never done this kind of thing before), so I thought it was better to restrict connections than to have the server explode. Traffic's died down now so it should be much more reliable :)

Quote
their rendering engine is clearly much more sophisticated than Glest's, and of course the quality of the models and textures is top notch, helped by the fact that they are probably doing bump mapping and other fancy stuff that Glest doesn't do
As gAMeboy says, there's no bump mapping - it's pretty much just polygons, textures, some vertex lighting, shadow maps, and that's about it. (Plus a pixel shader for water). I think the rendering engine itself is reasonably sophisticated in terms of structure, but it doesn't do any fancy graphical effects.

Quote
Atlas is the Map/Scenario editor, and would have many people here drooling on their keyboards...
Just out of interest (since I wrote most of it ;), and it'd be good to know where to focus future development), what do you like about it? (I have no idea what Glest's editing tools are like so I haven't got anything to compare it to.)

(By the way, if you're counting code size then source/tools/atlas/wxJS is a fairly large external library (copied into our source tree since it needs a few patches and feature additions) and should probably be excluded from counts. source/dcdt should be excluded too, since that's the non-Free triangulation library.)

Quote
most units have different skins, so if you produce some hoplites they don't look exactly the same, especially the shields.
It's not really skins - there are mesh variations too. (A unit might have a body, plus a head, plus a weapon, plus a shield, with several choices of head mesh and several choices of head texture etc, and the game randomly mixes all the bits together.)

silnarm

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #13 on: 26 July 2009, 10:53:06 »
Hmm, did you ask about pathfinding on our IRC channel a while ago? I remember somebody talking about something, but it's all a bit of a blur now :). ... <snip>
This seems like an area where it'd be great to collaborate with Glest, if our requirements are similar enough for that to work. I know approximately nothing about Glest's code, but since we've finally moved to open source it'd be good to see if some sharing of ideas or code would be possible.

No, I just left an obscure hint on your forum somewhere :) 
I looked at TRA* a while back (and others, but not in any great depth) but decided HAA* had some advantages, not least of which is its relative simplicity!  It's an extension of HPA*, for a 'light read' it's introduced by one of its Authors at:
http://aigamedev.com/open/tutorials/clearance-based-pathfinding/

It also has the advantage that the same Author has a working implementation on Google code, based on HOG, so it's not as simple as dropping it in, but it should serve as a great reference, and parts of it probably could be 'dropped in'. I'd certainly be interested in sharing ideas/code/test results etc.  I'll have another look your codebase when I can find some time, and get in touch, we should have a chat :).

Quote from: Philip
Just out of interest (since I wrote most of it ;), and it'd be good to know where to focus future development), what do you like about it? (I have no idea what Glest's editing tools are like so I haven't got anything to compare it to.)
Nice job you did too! I haven't played with it that much, and I didn't try to figure out the triggers. Probably the only thing I can suggest off the top of my head would be an 'inverse' of the alter terrain tool, to carve valleys with. But even without that, the terrain sculpting was a joy to play with, and the texture splatting is just fantastic.
Glest unfortunately doesn't have the greatest set of modding tools... to say the least.

Quote from: Philip
(By the way, if you're counting code size then source/tools/atlas/wxJS is a fairly large external library (copied into our source tree since it needs a few patches and feature additions) and should probably be excluded from counts. source/dcdt should be excluded too, since that's the non-Free triangulation library.)
Yeah... I have a habit of opening my big mouth before I have all the facts :) If I caused any offence I do apologise, it certainly was not my intent.
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Philip

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #14 on: 28 July 2009, 12:28:02 »
<technical stuff>

I'd certainly be interested in sharing ideas/code/test results etc.  I'll have another look your codebase when I can find some time, and get in touch, we should have a chat :).
That'd be good :). I don't have much personal experience with pathfinding (I wrote a rubbish A* implementation once (not for this game), and I know some irrelevant stuff about algebraic routing with Dijkstra etc, but I've never looked at what's involved in a proper RTS pathfinder); but the people who've worked on our game's pathfinder in the past are no longer active, and if nobody else takes on this work then (as long as I have time) I'd be happy to learn about this and try to get it sorted :)

(Hmm, that HAA* page makes me think about formations - we don't have giant amphibious laser tanks in 0 A.D., but groups of units in formation might benefit from that kind of clearance-based approach...)

Quote
I didn't try to figure out the triggers.
(Triggers were written by someone else, and I don't think they're entirely complete or well-tested yet, so I can't guarantee how much success you'd have with them.)
Quote
Probably the only thing I can suggest off the top of my head would be an 'inverse' of the alter terrain tool, to carve valleys with.
Do you mean like when you right click and the terrain goes down instead of up? (If so, that already works, but maybe could be better documented!)

Quote
If I caused any offence I do apologise, it certainly was not my intent.
No offence was taken - there are plenty of legitimate criticisms, so I just want people to have the facts to work out which criticisms are most justified :)

Platyhelminth

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #15 on: 28 July 2009, 15:23:07 »

silnarm

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #16 on: 30 July 2009, 09:34:19 »
(Hmm, that HAA* page makes me think about formations - we don't have giant amphibious laser tanks in 0 A.D., but groups of units in formation might benefit from that kind of clearance-based approach...)

Quote from: annotated_map.h

// Allows for a maximum moveable unit size of 3. we can
// (with modifications) path groups in formation using this,
// maybe this is not enough.. perhaps give some fields more resolution?


:) :)

Quote from: Philip
Do you mean like when you right click and the terrain goes down instead of up? (If so, that already works, but maybe could be better documented!)

Doh! I tried Ctrl and Alt, didn't think of right clicking :)

Here is some ideas for a pathfinder : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_colony_optimization or http://www.aco-metaheuristic.org/ .

Certainly interesting reading! I think it might be a bit too computationally expensive for a computer game :)
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #17 on: 3 October 2009, 21:27:19 »
They want web developers and animators, anyone up for it. I think they want people who know 3Ds Max.................Fluffy...............................
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #18 on: 3 October 2009, 23:15:30 »
They want web developers and animators, anyone up for it. I think they want people who know 3Ds Max.
Damn!  This seems like a great game and I'd love to pitch in a little animation help, but there's no way I'm spending thousands of dollars on 3DS (not to mention all the time it would take to learn it).  For me, it's Blender or BUST!  :P

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #19 on: 3 October 2009, 23:53:46 »
Well..................I'd say  contact them and ask about Blender.....................
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #20 on: 4 October 2009, 00:13:55 »
I'll keep it in mind for when I have more time, like after Sun and Moon is done.

gameboy

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #21 on: 4 October 2009, 16:06:39 »
DUDE I'm in the team and i use BLENDER!
WE'ed love ur help :D

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #22 on: 4 October 2009, 19:19:46 »
When I'm done with Sun and Moon, I'd be glad to pitch in.  That probably won't be until some time in 2010, though.

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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #23 on: 4 October 2009, 19:46:37 »
What about Earth and Sky, if you do those, you'll except help right, or did you say those weren't going to be made.
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Re: 0 A.D. goes open source
« Reply #24 on: 5 October 2009, 00:00:26 »
Did he ever definitively drop those factions?  Or is he still doing them? 

 

anything