Author Topic: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!  (Read 9587 times)

Omega

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Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« on: 4 October 2009, 22:31:13 »
Alright everybody! Introductions for new people: I am Omega, and I am taking over the never completed FPM. Look at the stickied topic of FPM for more details. I will have to remodel most units, and I am going freestyle for the paths of reason and nature, since they were never yet considered well anyway. So, here's my unit list and descriptions. Note that I made it OFFLINE and am just copying and pasting it in. I will not change much that has been done, but some new units are being added to completed paths, the two new paths will be done from (mostly) scratch. Read on:

TECH:

Path of Enlightment:
-Abbey
-Crusader
-House of Service
-Monk
-Paladin
-Priestest
-Shrine
-Cathedral

Path of Reason:
-Trebuchet
-Battle Tank
-Royal Guard
-Scholar
-Crossbow Soldier
-Ranger
-War Master
-Military Academy
-University

MAGIC:

Path of Corruption:
-Crypt
-Graveyard
-Lich
-Skeleton
-Zombie
-Necromancer
-Necromancer's Tower
-Ghoul

Path of Nature:
-Ancient Armor
-Druid
-Grove
-Treant
-Mystic
-Nature Spirit
-Wood Guard
-Keep
-Ruins
-Sorcer



DESCRIPTIONS:

Path of Enlightment:
Abby: The abby is already modelled, and its purpose has not changed. It is a large building for production and upgrading purposes.

Crusader: A unit similar to the guard but with different armor, a roman style helmet, and a two handed broadsword.

House of Service: A building, description not yet decided (ideas?), which is for production and upgrading purposes.

Monk: A healing unit with the ability to heal rapidly as well as has a healing regeneration emanation.

Paladin: A stronger version of the crusader, with different style armor, a large bucket-style helmet, and a thin longsword. Lots of white in the armor.

Priestest: A female in a white cloak and hood with the ability to cast magic. She can do minor healing, has an EP regen boost emanation (prayer), and can cast either holy bolt, lightning, and earthquake (varying EP: 75, 700, 1500).

Shrine: A small building which looks like a plateu with a stand and column in white marble. Produces shrines to produce the priestest (1 shrine = 1 priestess).

Cathedral: A building for upgrades. Looks like, well, a cathedral. High arched roof, stained glass windows, and a bell tower.

Path of Reason:
Trebuchet: A standard trebuchet, google image search it to see what it looks like, since they all look similar. Very powerful against stone and wood, and has a decent range. Morphed from the technician, similar to the catipult, but stronger.

Battle Tank: A wooden ramming 'vehicle' with iron spikes at the front and a cannon on the top. Can do either melee or ranged attacks (melee is stronger, and the 1st attack, but ranged can hit air and has a range).

Royal Guard: A swordman-like unit with a royal-like cloak (team color) and light armor. With a long, slim, golden sword. High attack power, medium defense. Plenty of HP, expensive unit.

Scholar: Produced by university. Thin man in a tweed coat! Constructs the Battle Tank, can perform an upgrade, and can be morphed to ranger.

Crossbow Soldier: A soldier armed with a crossbow. Fast projectiles, decent range, plenty of power, but slow firing speed. Wearing chain mail.

Ranger: Morphed from an archer, based on the archer with swordman model that someone made a while back. More power, different texture, and a secondary melee attack (higher power), faster firing rate.

War Master: Superb 1x1 size melee fighter. Danged expensive and slow to produce. Looks like a buffed up swordman with heavy chest armor, but no helmet, leggings, or armlets. Wields a wicked, wavy-style sword. High attack, decent speed, good armor, medium health. All-round powerful unit.

Military Academy: The building that produces the bulk of the new armed units. No current description (ideas?).

University: A building for upgrades and production. No current description (ideas?).

Path of Corruption:
Crypt: Already completed, a building for production and upgrades.

Graveyard: Already completed, a building for production and upgrades.

Lich: A skeletal wizard of dark power. One of the strongest, but also most vulnerable, units in the game. Has very powerful magic. Should be remodelled and reanimated.

Skeleton: A skeletal warrior summoned by the lich. It's a pet of the lich, so dies as the owner dies, attacks the owners attack, etc; Should be remodelled and reanimated.

Zombie: An undead warrior summoned by the lich. More powerful than the skeleton, but slower and more costy to produce. Model is fine, but needs to be reanimated (unless it should appear 'stiff', you decide).

Necromancer: A dark wizard who summons the undead. To be remodeled. Possible idea: unit covered in black cloak and hood, eyes are hidden, but beard and wrinkled skin of his lower face can be seen. Carries a twisted wooden staff, gandalf the grey style!

Necromancer's Tower: Completed already. No need for any changes. For production and upgrades.

Ghoul: A twisted dark melee unit produced by the crypt. It is mediumly strong, has good HP, somewhat slow, but has a better than average attack speed.

Path of Nature:
Ancient Armor: A ghost armor with different armor. Pale silver and an ancient roman style armor with some rusting. A bit of moss and signs of age on it. Stronger and faster than the ghost armor. Ghost armor is for coruption, ancient armor is for nature.

Druid: A mage in a light green, flowing cloak, who can cast a green aura spell. Medium strength, but cheap to produce and can heal.

Grove: A building for production and upgrades. Already complete.

Treant: A very powerful melee unit based similar to the ent of gameboy's elf faction (wonder if we can just use that? It looks exactly the same, and it seems like such a waste of time to model a unit that looks exactly the same as his ent anyway.)

Mystic: A powerful mage with a slightly stronger attack than the archmage, but no splash. Decent HP and EP, with high EP regen and an emanation that boosts HP and EP regen by 2 each. A mage in rainbow colored robes with a hood.

Nature Spirit: A magical spirit without true form which attacks with a nature based magic attack. Fairly powerful, and summoned by the Mystic. Form is undefined, but most likely a swirling mass of green aura and twigs and leaves. No actual form, and very low health, but special armor type make anything except energy attacks do  very little damage (10%). High regen values.

Wood Guard: An elf-like swordman, tall, nimble, and thin, with a long, razor sharp, thin blade. Very fast and fairly powerful, but no defense at all, since they only wear natural clothes. Has a secondary attack for air only (magic!).

Keep: A building for production. A tower with a room at the base covered in trailing vines.

Ruins: A crumbled ruin for upgrades. Just the remains of a building, and easy enough to model. Covered in thick, growing vines.

Sorcer: A female mage that can cast a few different spells comparable to the Priestess. Can cast focus energy (100), roots (500), and gaia's wraith (1500). Focus energy is a blast of pure energy, roots is sort of like a mirrored lightning spell, with green shoots spiraling out of the ground into the sky, and gaia's wraith is simply another earthquake (seems fair that both magic and tech get an earthquake).
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Omega

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #1 on: 4 October 2009, 22:38:14 »
I've began the modeling of the crusader. Since its armor is similar to the guards, but has different weapon, no shield, and a different helm, I just used the guard as a basis for the model. The texture could use some work, but the nice animations should (hopefully) make up for that. He wields a two handed sword, and has a roman style helmet.

Image:


(WTF? I uploaded faster than I've ever seen on dialup before. Of course, the calculating of the upload speed was obviously glinched, and the file was too small to judge well).
Download: http://www.filefront.com/14658015/crusader_1.0.7z/

Note that all animations, as usual, are meant for view in glest, and may not look so good in the viewer. For example, my walk animation is two frames and drags his feet, but looks fantastic (IMO) in glest.

Note that I removed the healing ability since enough units in that path can already heal.

Comments?

BIG EFFING IMPORTANT QUESTION:
What are these fall down and get up skills? How should they be used, what should I use them for, etc; Details please!
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Mark

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #2 on: 5 October 2009, 02:15:59 »
Umm, Nice job, that is really too much for me to read.  Nice WOT.  About the helmet, it is actually an open-faced helmet, and I like how you added the plume.  You should give him the Flamberge sword, unless you can't redo your animation. 

daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #3 on: 5 October 2009, 03:07:40 »
First off, I like your crusader, but he should look more religious.

Not a lot has happened on FPM in a while, but that's not a reason to try to take it over and fundamentally change its underpinnings.  From what I've read, I don't think you comprehend the dynamics of the work that's already been done.  Also, there is a thread somewhere around here where different ideas for the other two paths have been examined & discussed at great length.  If you want to do work on it, your contributions are welcomed!  But you can't take the project over and change it entirely, especially without ever understanding how it works in the 1st place!  All work is licensed under the a Creative Commons license (I believe the share-alike, attribute & commercially friendly version), so if you want to start your own fork, that is of course within your rights.  But if you wish to do that, kindly call it something other than "Four Path Magitech" so as to distinguish your fork from the one that wciow & I have done so much work on (even if it's incomplete).

The reason I haven't given it much work lately is because I need additional features in the engine to support what I want to do in FPM.  These features are partially available in the 0.3 branch, but not in sourceforge!  Whenever hailstone created the 0.3.x_deprecated branch, he did not put the correct sources into it!  So these features are on the 0.3 branch from codemonger.org.  Lots of models & animations are needed or need improvement, but that's never been my area of speciality. :)  Then, I decided that the networking needed to be fixed and got side-tracked on that and hadn't made my way back to finishing 0.3, but c'est la vie.

As to the "fall down" and "get up" skills are the mechanisms used when an earthquake knocks down units.  Earthquakes are supposed to temporarily immobilize units (presuming they aren't killed).  I hate the way I have it implemented personally, where the skill specifies how long it takes them to fall & to get up and don't even get me started on the visual appearances, because that's terrible. :)

So here's some background on the FPM factions:

Path of Enlightenment

This is a society whos path has gone quite differently than the typical Christian or Muslim societies of Earth's recent history (past few thousand years).  In this society, the men are still the warriors, but the female is the revered gender.  In this society, men can become priests, but they are not at the top of the religious food chain, that role is reserved only for women.

Priests (or Monk, I don't mind that name either)
The priests are the healers and they have another ability (not implemented) where they can create a "beacon of hope", or some such (some static object they create that uses most of their EPs, lasts some 30 seconds, and has an emanation that aids allies and slows attack & movement of foes).  The intention of this skill is that you "spend" it when you have a big battle and if the battle moves, you loose the benefit of it.

They have weak (cloth) armor and are vulnerable to physical attack.  The priests minister to the holy warriors, which cannot be produced without priests to minister to them (thus the "piety" resource).  Also, they are selfless, so they can heal others, but not themselves (although they can heal eachother).  So ideally, the priest goes into combat, right behind the combat units.  I did a lot of work in the AI to make them stay in battle when there's somebody there to fight for them and flee only when they don't have a combat unit between themselves & the enemy unless you explicitly order them to do otherwise.

Priestess
The priestess is the center of this society.  They do not have healing abilities.  They are strictly offensive and, almost deity-like, are capable of awe-inspiring attacks.  Their years of study, spiritual discipline and closeness to the spirit world renders them mostly invulnerable to mundane attacks.  They can be killed by mundane means, you just have to beat on them a good deal.

Acolyte
The acolyte is, in essence, a priestess in training and support for the priestess.  Using GAE from the old 0.3 branch, these are fully functional except for two things:
  • When their priestess dies, they are supposed to disassociate and re-associate with another priestess who doesn't already have the max number of acolytes.
  • They don't yet have a functional "Astral Travel" skill.

What they do successfully:
  • Replenish the priestess' EPs with a skill that works automatically, just like a repair/heal skill.  This makes the priestess more powerful because she can attack much more often in a battle.  The acolytes act like manna batteries.
  • They have an emanation that raises the max damage (and maybe some other stat) of the priestess they follow.

Crusaders
I don't mind them not having shields & wielding a two-handed sword, I'm not too picky about that part.  I want them to probably have slightly less survivability than guards, so the chain mail look is a good choice!  I do want them to wear (I'm not sure what you call it) a cloth shirt over their armor that has their religious symbol on it (the same symbol I want decorating the trim of the priests' robes).  My concept for the crusader is that they are the anti-thesis of magic attacks seeing any magic not from their religion as inherently bad.  They have an emanation that slows enemy EP regeneration and can even drain it in large numbers (since the effect is cumulative).  They work very closely with the Priests/Monks who minister and guide them, and as such, are granted minor healing abilities (not powerful enough for use in combat, but good to reduce mana drain on priests between battles).  So in brief, as compared to the guard, slightly more vulnerable, around the same damage output, minor healing ability and strong detrimental effect to enemy casters (as long as they can get fairly close range).

Seriously, if you have better ideas for what crusaders & paladins do, I'm most certainly open to it!  I do want to make sure that the end product results in a "rock, scissors, paper" type of scheme and I'm not terribly unhappy with them now, except that they tend to die rather quickly against a large mob of corruption attackers (all of the AoE attacks).

Paladins
Paladins are like the horse units, except they are also supposed to inspire.  I believe that even with the current 0.2.12a, they should be fully functional.  Their emanation is also cumulative, so if you get enough of them, you can boost the fighting ability of other units quite substantially!  They can also heal, but they can only heal themselves and they suck at it until you do some upgrade at the Abbey.

Shrines
Shrines are required to produce priestess (one shrine allows one priestess) and also provide benefit when you are near them.

Cathedral
Sounds like a good idea.  Maybe Abbey should be the name of the advanced building and Cathedral the unit-producing building?  I don't know really.

House of Service
I've never liked the name of the building.  Can somebody PLEASE come up with a better name!? :)  It was all I could think of at the time and nothing better ever came. :(  This is supposed to be just like the barracks, except that it's strictly devoted to the training of holy warriors who will wage war and carry out the will of the church.

Path of Corruption
Just a few notes on this faction.  And yes, I agree with all of the re-modeling & re-animation (no pun intended :) ).  The current models & animations have certainly served well up to this point! :)

Crypt
I've never liked this unit a whole lot.  In short, I want to make it smaller and make it where it can only be built within a graveyard.  I don't mind the need for it to be built & required for Liches & such.

Ghoul
I like this idea from a theme standpoint, but Corruption is on the verge of being over-powered offensively.  If this were introduced, something else would have to give, like the elimination of zombies.  Maybe necromancers are required to make ghouls, but they can only make them at the graveyard?  Maybe we leave the zombies, but require the necromancer to create each, but each must be created in the graveyard (thereby adding a little justification to its large size), but zombies are incapable of operating without a necromancer/lich telling them what to do (being their pet) while ghouls are capable of operating independently?

Either way, they would have to be a more advanced unit (requiring research, buildings, or some such), probably be fairly powerful and should have some unique ability to justify their existence.

Lich & Skeletons
I just want to note that they are especially resistant to piercing damage.  Also, some upgrade somewhere (I forget where now) adds significant survivability to both and becomes quite important, especially for the Lich who requires so much to make and has so few hit points!

The awful thing about Liches (when you are faced by them) is that they can suck the life of numerous enemy units at once and I have the AI set up so that they will use their life-draining attack only when they are at less than 100% health.  The result is that they can be awful hard to kill until they are out of mana!  I played the computer once where a Lich had leveled up once or twice and they were fully upgraded and the damn thing took out a LOT of my units before he finally died!  However, about one shot from the airship or catapult will do them in.

Necromancer
I like your idea for how these will look!  The only thing I caution is to not make them look too experienced.  They are supposed to be just a tiny bit on the "green" side of dark magic (like the battlemage) -- not necessarily young (although they can be), just inferior to the Lich, which of course, is no longer an actual "living" person.

Path of Reason
Just a few comments for now.  I don't want any gunpowder in this path, they aren't that advanced, so absolutely no tanks!  The Trebuchet sounds fine.  What I think this faction really needs more of is siege machinery.  Replace the tank idea with siege sheds and towers.  The engine wont currently support this, that's why I've been working on the engine so that it can.  Scholars should be like the magic faction's initiates, very vulnerable and somebody you want to keep at home under all costs! :)

I'll write more on this later.
« Last Edit: 5 October 2009, 03:15:04 by daniel.santos »

daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #4 on: 5 October 2009, 03:42:56 »
Ok, I said I would write more. :)

Summary of Factions
In short, each faction has a very unique approach to winning.  I want to summarize this here.  For starters, each of the four final sub-factions are more powerful than their original base magic or tech faction.  I think magic & tech are nicely balanced.

Corruption
Corruption's power is massive area of effect damage and de-buffing (i.e., reducing the stats and capabilities of the enemy).  They have very poor self-regenerating ability and are defensively average.  Skeletons and zombies exist primarily to give the enemy something else to attack while the necromancers & liches tear everything up, although the very cheap nature of producing skeletons makes them viable damage producers in and of themselves.

Nature
The power of nature is stealth, damage avoidance and excessive regeneration.  Rangers have long been intended for the Path of Nature, and they are supposed to be able to travel through the forest (possibly unseen) and even attack with ranged attacks from the forest (the attack must reveal them) making them difficult to kill.  Treants should have a "take root" ability that grants them a substantial boost in hit points and attack range while making them  immobile.  When they have taken root and not attacking, they appear as a normal tree to the enemy and are essentially invisible (i.e., units will not automatically attempt to attack them and the UI should not reveal their nature at all).  It's supposed to take a long time for them to take root and unroot and they cannot attack while performing either skill (thus, not very feasible to do in combat).  Druids will serve to add a very substantial regeneration bonus to units and the pixies have some other type of benefit (I forget what we decided upon now).

So in short, they are offensively average and defensively above average and have the best regeneration (sustained HP renewal) of all.  Enlightenment priests can heal faster, but they will run out of mana.  Druids heal slower, but it's passive and they one druid can keep a large number of units regenerating indefinitely.

Enlightenment
Offensively above average (once you get priestesses), defensively inferior, with very powerful HP renewal and the ability to suppress magical (to a degree) attacks from enemies.  I've already covered most of this.

Reason
Offensively superior, defensively above average (once siege sheds are built or advanced war tactics are researched) and no mobile HP restoration units.  They can get a hospital, but this will require units to be taken back to base and left there for a while.  This faction is supposed to be the war-obsessed type that seems to have nothing better to do than refine their techniques at waging war.  Their primary path to superior offensiveness is by upgrades (university & military academy) and leadership/war strategies.  The engine will need to support formations for all of what I want to do with this.  I would like them to have a unit with a large rectangular shield who's armor increases dramatically when flanked on either side by a friendly unit of the same type, and this boost is 2x if the same unit type is on either side of them.  Their attacks are primarily single unit attacks (unlike corruption who has crippling AoE).

So that's it in a nutshell

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #5 on: 5 October 2009, 03:55:27 »
Honestly I never understood why FPM is laid out the way it is.  Religion and magic are much more closely associated than religion and technology.  Religion and magic are both focused on using unseen and incomprehensible forces to effect some sort of change (prayers, incantations, spells, rituals).  Technology is quite the opposite, using empirical study, experimentation, and hard evidence to predict, understand, and change how the world works.  I think it would make a lot more sense for Tech to branch into Reason and Nature, and for Magic to branch into Corruption and Enlightenment.  This also preserves a morality balance.  If Tech can turn into either Reason (neutral) or Enlightenment (good), while Magic can turn into Nature (neutral) or Corruption (evil), then Tech inherently leans toward good while Magic inherently leans toward evil.  However, if Tech branches into Nature (neutral) and Reason (neutral), while Magic branches into either Corruption (evil) or Enlightenment (good), then neither faction tends more towards good or evil.  Science and technology don't care about good and evil, and likely don't even believe that such things exist.  They simply care about the way things are, as they find through objective observation, whereas magic and religion are concerned with how things should be according to their beliefs.  This means it makes much more sense for Tech to be the "always neutral" faction, while Magic has to choose between good and evil.

daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #6 on: 5 October 2009, 04:13:43 »
I would have to say that I strongly disagree.  Personally, I see religion more as "evil" than "good".  It is a man-made institution that attempts to dictate its beliefs to entire societies, telling them not to make value judgements for themselves (choose the wrong belief and you'll go to hell!), perpetually altered, revised and used by politicians, dictators, kings, sultans, emperors, etc. to maintain control over people.  Don't believe me?  Then go read some history (and not the cooked-up, lies you learn in American primary schools, I mean real college history).

Science can be seen as "evil" because it somehow carries with it, at its core, the belief/assumption that only the re-producible observation and activities (a.k.a. "experiments) of humans matters, nothing else is worth consideration as being possibly "real".  Further, science is based upon the first 5 senses, denying the existent or plausibility of any other "extra-sensory" perception, which I argue can't be "extra" if it's a part of our natural senses, but that's my view.

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #7 on: 5 October 2009, 04:28:01 »
So... everybody's evil?  What a downer. :P

hailstone

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #8 on: 5 October 2009, 09:02:12 »
I don't think all religion is like that, although I agree that what you are saying definitely occurs, but this is going to happen with or without religion... ahum.. cough... cough... national security.

For the purposes of the faction/path I think it is fine.
« Last Edit: 5 October 2009, 09:04:45 by hailstone »
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John.d.h

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #9 on: 5 October 2009, 11:35:49 »
Leaders will always find a means to justify their actions.  During the '30s and '40s, Stalin massacred millions in the name of unity and being a crazy bastard, while the Japanese were busy doing unspeakable things to the Chinese population in the name of science, and the Americans were throwing Japanese-Americans into internment camps in the name of security.  Religion is just a convenient excuse because it's a common uniting factor.  Besides, it's the path of Enlightenment, which kinda has the "good" judgment built into the name. :P

Anyway, all morality issues aside, science and religion still don't really seem to go together.  Religion is all about "I believe this and it makes sense to me, so it must be so", whereas science is the complete opposite, "I won't believe it until I see it, and then test it, examine it, and repeat it."  That's not to say that one can't be both a person of faith and a person of science (Sir Isaac Newton comes to mind), but a society based on reason, empirical study, and hard facts doesn't seem likely to suddenly find religion and they especially wouldn't have faith-healers and miracle workers.  The laws of physics are their pantheon and any god they believe in would probably be of the watchmaker variety.  Miracles and divine intervention run contrary to the scientific viewpoint of the universe as predictable and being governed by unchanging laws.  All religions have something to say about morality and the way we should behave, as well, which doesn't fit well with the objectivity of science.

Don't get me wrong; I like the path of Enlightenment.  I just think it would be better suited as a branch of Magic.  While it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Tech to develop much of a religion, it makes perfect sense for Magic.  Magic and religion are very closely associated in the real world.  Most religions have prayer, incantations, blessing rituals, exorcisms, or even magic spells that are meant to bring about some change upon the physical world by unseen forces, which is essentially the very definition of magic.

Edit: In regard to the "House of Service", maybe Chapter House or Monastery would be a better name.  From what I remember from Medieval: Total War, a chapter house is where a would-be crusader would go to find sponsorship and join a fighting order.  Monasteries have always been places for training in the faith, so I think that would work even better as a name.

Edit 2: I believe the cloth garment that goes over the armor is called a "tabard".  Also, I just realized how much the description of the Priests and Priestesses sounds like the Eunuchs and Matrons from my Sun faction.  I never realized I ganked your ideas. :-[
« Last Edit: 5 October 2009, 12:08:43 by John.d.h »

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #10 on: 5 October 2009, 13:26:41 »
A lot of reading.........

Tech and religion: Are fitting together today(sort of), and they did hundreds of years ago, just in weird ways........................ but I don't believe they make a good pair.

Magic and religion: They fit perfectly, because one creates a basis for the other.

Tech and Nature: They use nature to create just about everything. (Anything nature doesn't create............well the humans...........)

Magic and Nature: Some magic is based off nature, and some magic is used to help plants grow healthily.................so Im not to sure on this one....

Tech and Enlightenment: I'd tend to think that enlightenment would be the transition into understanding of the world.

Magic and Enlightenment: ....

My basic opinion:Magic and religion: Yes
                       Tech and nature: Yes
                       Tech and enlightenment: No, people went on the crusades for religious purposes, so this fits better with magic.
                       Magic and corruption: I dunno, leading to dark magic............but this could also fit with tech.......dark tech.
                       
Well just some more to think about....
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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #11 on: 5 October 2009, 18:12:06 »
I'm confused. Are you saying there's license restrictions here?!?!?!?!?!?!?

If so, can I not do this (and should I just branch out separately). I wanted to keep this 'official', but what would have to be changed then? I guess the paladin can be a horse unit (I only just noticed that yesterday when looking at the XMLs). Please tell me what changes need to be done to cope with your 'demands'.

I for one think that tech and enlightenment do fine, since it has a medieval twist to it. I do NOT want to change any of that. I will be soon posting a lot of diagrams showing my opinion of the recommended unit stats, what produces what, what upgrades are produced from what, and the overall full unit list. We can edit from that. I was up late last night doing that list for tech. Today I'll do it for magic (56KB RTF and counting!). It doesn't describe their appearances, but rather their stats, path, upgrades, resource reqs, upgrade, unit reqs, etc;
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daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #12 on: 5 October 2009, 19:59:10 »
First, to address all of the discussion about the various paths and what does & doesn't work together, I can only say that "everybody has an opinion."  While I've considered changing the name of the "Tech" root faction, I can tell you that the names of the FPM subfactions, as well as their basic nature will not be changing.

I'm confused. Are you saying there's license restrictions here?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Yes, there are license restrictions on FPM, just like there is with the Glest source code and the GAE source code.  FPM uses the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike license.  I like this license because it allows the greatest flexibility (including use for commercial purposes) and keeps the names of all contributors attached to the work.

Please tell me what changes need to be done to cope with your 'demands'.
I don't think I'm making any real "demands" here.  I'm the maintainer of the FPM project.  wciow & I started it and it's actually what even got me started writing GAE in the 1st place.  I'm not going to accept modifications by everybody who has a new opinion on how it should go.  If you want to work on FPM, you'll have to work with me, not dictate to me.  Get it?  If you don't want to do that, then in accordance with the license, you do have the right to start your own fork.

As I said before, I would love to have your contributions and I think you have good ideas and talent.  But you can't take the project over and appoint yourself the new maintainer.  Also, you can do both if you want!  You can contribute to FPM and also have your own fork of FPM that you are the maintainer of and decide what goes in and what doesn't.  Because of the license, you can "steal" as much as you want from FPM, as long as you carry a compatible license and attribute all derived work (i.e., carry the original authors' names).

As far as the path of reason is concerned, the ideas I've seen that I like the most is in this posting:  https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=3292.msg23699#msg23699.  And again, I would be working on the FPM faction more, but there's a lot in the engine that I need to make a lot of what I want to see come to fruition.

Mark

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #13 on: 6 October 2009, 02:22:15 »
science and religion still don't really seem to go together
That is why I think that they should be separate forks.  I mean, I don't want to go all history fanatic on you, but they sure had some conflict, especially the christian church and the enlightened scientists and philosophers.  I really think that they go against each other enough to be the two branches.  Think:  the religion one would get all kinds of priests and such, and the science could either be steampunk or historical.

I would have to say that I strongly disagree.  Personally, I see religion more as "evil" than "good".  It is a man-made institution that attempts to dictate its beliefs to entire societies, telling them not to make value judgements for themselves (choose the wrong belief and you'll go to hell!), perpetually altered, revised and used by politicians, dictators, kings, sultans, emperors, etc. to maintain control over people.  Don't believe me?  Then go read some history (and not the cooked-up, lies you learn in American primary schools, I mean real college history).
Wow!  Very insightful!  My brother and I hold some of the same beliefs.

Science can be seen as "evil" because it somehow carries with it, at its core, the belief/assumption that only the re-producible observation and activities (a.k.a. "experiments) of humans matters, nothing else is worth consideration as being possibly "real".  Further, science is based upon the first 5 senses, denying the existent or plausibility of any other "extra-sensory" perception, which I argue can't be "extra" if it's a part of our natural senses, but that's my view.
I don't think that science should be depicted as evil, but maybe mad science could be a dominant theme.  Hmm, maybe a mad scientist's alchemy lab?

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #14 on: 6 October 2009, 02:27:04 »
I would just like to emphasize two things:
1) This is a great opportunity to implement units of other fields into Magitech.  Please consider boats, submersibles, etc.
2) Try to keep in mind the original themes of the factions.  Tech was steampunk.  Magic was more of a medley of Magical things, but you might have seen my tech tree before.  There are several mythological creatures which would fit nicely into Magic, namely the minotaur, centaur, and basilisk.

Mark

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #15 on: 6 October 2009, 02:32:39 »
I think this should be where the splits make such a difference.  Tech's path of science would have sea units like galleys, dragon longboats, cogs, caravels, carracks, and galleys.  Religion, however, would have limited sea.  If we really were to go the path of steampunk for science, we could even give science small bathyscaphes and bathyspheres, and that submarine that drilled holes in the hulls of ships and implanted explosives.

daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #16 on: 6 October 2009, 06:28:37 »
science and religion still don't really seem to go together
That is why I think that they should be separate forks....
Of course they are in conflict, constant conflict.  Really, the seemingly never-ending bickering about intelligent design and evolution was a huge influence on my decision to go forward with this for the "tech" branch.  However, my idea of this root faction is more of an anglo-centric approach to life & philosophy than the development of "technology".   As I said, I may eventually rename it, but it hasn't mattered enough to me yet (or I haven't seen a name I like yet).

Wow!  Very insightful!  My brother and I hold some of the same beliefs.
A book I highly recommend (Professor Loewen is almost a hero to me): Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong

I don't think that science should be depicted as evil...
Yea, I was just making a point. :)  But really, I've seen a lot of atrocities occur in the name of science too (less than in religion admittedly).  Think about how many times we've made decisions like, "Let's tear down these millions of acres of land and build (fill in the blank).  We don't have to worry about the current residence (trees, animals, etc.) because our they don't matter, they aren't human (or aren't our color, religion, ethnicity, etc.).

2) Try to keep in mind the original themes of the factions.  Tech was steampunk....
Thanks for pointing that out modman, this was definitely a theme that was lost on me.  I've looked it up and I now better understand the original "tech" faction.  It's always left a sour taste in my mouth, mostly because of the ornithopter.  I'm one of those guys that gets pissed at a movie when they do something totally unrealistic (nuking the fridge, etc.).  I can dig the airship much more, because it's much more feasible in that time era (although, the cabin should hang from the bottom, not be placed on the top).  What can I say?  I'm an engineer.  I've spent the majority of my adult life (and much of my childhood) making things work or making them work better.

But back to the steampunk theme, wciow and I long since agreed that we were removing the technician, battlemech, ornithopter, airship and technodrome, but we've left them in thus far to preserve game balance.  Which at the time was strongly tipped to Corruption's side. As-is now (with the current un-released FPM on the un-released GAE 0.3), Enlightenment is almost balanced, but the steampunk units still haven't been yanked (and now I have a name for them).  The two primary tools I've been planning to use to do this were adding the Astral Travel ability for Acolytes (giving them a superior spying capability) and adding the Beacon of Hope ability to the Priest/Monk.  Each of these requires a good deal of further modification to the engine.  While I want FPM to be an extension of sorts to the original Magitech faction tree, we have already diverged a good deal from it.  Honestly, what I care most about is that the lower level units, upgrades and buildings are identical and have the same feel when you play them until you hit the upgrade that chooses your path.  Somebody had even proposed extending the original themes so that their total power (once advanced further) will match that of the new subfactions and, quite honestly, I do find that idea appealing and may happen.

As for marine & submersibles, I will definitely take that into account.  Honestly, it doesn't take much, technologically, to make a boat.  Maybe the magic side (being used to going to magic as their 1st resource) will have magically propelled boats and the tech branch will be rowed or use primitive sails, with Reason getting more advanced sailing ships.  We'll see.  I still have a lot of work to do getting the networking re-write completed and working (so all of these GAE mods can be played in multiplayer) and then getting back to the previous 0.3 work -- which will be interesting now with Silnarm around!

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #17 on: 6 October 2009, 10:37:05 »
I've missed alot of stuff here becuase I don't have home internet atm  :'( I just wanted to say that I am still interested in working on FPM.

I'll put up a post on the modelling/re-modelling of the FPM units and their current status. I also have a tech tree that I created based on the original units that Daniel and I came up with. I will post it when the cable company fix my internet!!
Check out my new Goblin faction - https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=9658.0

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #18 on: 6 October 2009, 12:42:30 »
I'd be willing to do a little animation. :D
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daniel.santos

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #19 on: 6 October 2009, 17:09:29 »
w00t!!  ;D

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #20 on: 9 October 2009, 03:40:29 »
Ok, nobody ever waits for me...

EDIT by Daniel Santos: Apparently, this server doesn't like the HTTP REFERER containing anything.  To view these, please copy each link and paste them into your browser.  If you just try to click the links from here, you get a 403. :(

http://glest.110mb.com/fpm/Unit%20Layout.xhtml
http://glest.110mb.com/fpm/magic_map.png
http://glest.110mb.com/fpm/magic_paths.png
http://glest.110mb.com/fpm/tech_map.png
http://glest.110mb.com/fpm/tech_paths.png

This is my proposal. DO NOT COMMENT UNLESS YOU READ THE ENTIRE THING. This way I filter out about 99% of the 'In my opinion...'s (it's a lot to read).
« Last Edit: 9 October 2009, 23:32:58 by daniel.santos »
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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #21 on: 9 October 2009, 04:24:52 »
Well, "In my opinion..." you should stop linking to things that only return a 403.  :-\

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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #22 on: 9 October 2009, 07:39:37 »
What the?!? Well, I fixed it, but I just can't figure out how...? I used an FTP client to upload the files, and they didn't work until I previewed them online. I don't see how that made a difference. They were successfully uploaded online, but until I viewed them in the FTP client, they were considered non-existant. Any idea what happened? (and please view now).
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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #23 on: 9 October 2009, 14:02:59 »
It could be hot-link protection. Try showing the images in a web page.
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Re: Four Path Magitech - REVITALIZED!
« Reply #24 on: 9 October 2009, 17:36:50 »
I doubt. I only showed links here anyway, not imbedded images. Besides, I can hotlink images if I want. It costs bandwidth, but works fine.

Anyway, enough offtopic. Anyone read through it yet? I have a feeling daniel will, but anyone else?
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