Balance Tool: Spectators Map -- Redone

[-Archmage-]

This is a map that you can use for balancing, and for playing games if you want.
I made ALL of it, the map the .txt files, so if you use any of this in something, please credit me.

For a good description, just download it.

Pic: Coming Soon!!!

Downloads: Spectators-Package-FIXED.zip -- 1.44KB -- Fixed

This is probably the best way to balance two factions.
If you want I'll create one for balancing 3 players.

Enjoy!  

[ace frog]

Idea for up-date:
Reset players > [set total players] [hit red X]

That way there arent two "AIR ONLY" places.

5 second EDIT: also, the 2 air only places have no recorses (other than WOOD -.-)

[-Archmage-]

How do they have gold?
And you are not supposed to play a game using 3 or 4, that for watching if you want to balance something.
I'm not updating this for a while, it works good.

This is a tool for balancing factions in Glest, not for playing games.
Not that you can't play a game with it, I did once or twice.

Only use player 3 and 4 for observing the game, if you insist upon playing with this tool than go ahead, just don't complain.

[Scenariole]

It doesn't work... A base needs more space to fit the starting units so yeah...

[-Archmage-]

It worked fine for me with both Magic and Tech, I'll make the space a bit bigger, and reupload.

EDIT: Fixed Map, try it now.

[jda]

Sweeeeeeet! Thanks, archmage!

[-Archmage-]

Your Welcome.

[jda]

I've tested this like a couple days ago.

My short opinion of it:
WORKS!

Extended comments:

To the user:
In the package-included instructions, you'll find Archmage tells you to set two CPU Ultra players to play against each other (and also the human observer as third player but that's not the point here).
Well... I went against Archmage's instructions and set two non-ultra CPU players to battle each other (player 1 Magic vs player 2 Tech). I realized this was NOT the best option when Magic started endlessly producing Summoners! There were some 12-16 of these just before Tech begun slaying them off. The Magic summoners are of course fundamental in Magic strategy but not in those numbers - that was just a waste of time and resources.
So... if you're balancing a faction with more complex gameplay (such as Magic when compared to Tech), you really should use CPU Ultra players. When I played another game of Magic vs Tech with CPU Ultras... Magic won - and did no foolishness like before...

To Arhcmage:
1. The map works alright but it puts the players too close to each other with no obstacles in between so the game ends pretty quickly and you don't get to see all the factions' trees progress. Basically, the basic to medium units finish the game one side or the other.
2. I thought it was good to have the spectators far away from the actual players. In fact, my human spectator got attacked by dragons! Though there was no real problem in this, specially 'cause the Tech faction was already gone anyway, if the spectators were closer to the actual players, the later might be distracted to attack the spectators instead of concentrating on the actual enemy, thus giving a wrong impression on the balance of the factions. Hence, nice thought putting the spectators far away from the action.
3. Also related to point 1, as someone noted, there are no obstacles in between the players and pathfinding resumes to running around freely. Much could benefit from placing objects like trees, mountains and water simmetrically between the two players:
  i. It would make the game longer, giving time for the factions to progress more along their trees.
  ii. It would test some larger units' manouverability as well as underline the air units usefulness (presentally an advantage pretty much useless regarding) and unbalancing capabilities.
  iii. In GAE, water fields would be essencial to test water units...
4. A faction's balance may be changed by its ability to gather resources (different factions = different gathering capabilities). I myself actually have no idea how to place resources in a way this becomes apparent and in fact, as long as there is the same amount of resources at the same distance from each player's base, the factions' respective capabilities should be apparent anyways. With the exception of: larger maps with limited resources, where your resource-gatherers would actually need to walk further and further away to get what you need...?

So, in short, for a first-off frontal, open and fast confrontation between two factions, where the early units and buildings are the ones to be tested the most, THIS MAP IS FINE!
But I would certainly like you to make more such maps, with larger areas, obstacles between the factions, pathfinding challenges, resource-gathering problems and anything else you can think of, to test the factions balances even further!
Like this could be the Level1 Spectators map and you could then do Level 2, 3, ...

Anyways, whether you do expand on this or not, thanks for the good work, Archmage!

[-Archmage-]

I've tested this like a couple days ago.

My short opinion of it:
WORKS! Wink

Glad to hear it!

To the user:
In the package-included instructions, you'll find Archmage tells you to set two CPU Ultra players to play against each other (and also the human observer as third player but that's not the point here).
Well... I went against Archmage's instructions and set two non-ultra CPU players to battle each other (player 1 Magic vs player 2 Tech). I realized this was NOT the best option when Magic started endlessly producing Summoners! There were some 12-16 of these just before Tech begun slaying them off. The Magic summoners are of course fundamental in Magic strategy but not in those numbers - that was just a waste of time and resources.
So... if you're balancing a faction with more complex gameplay (such as Magic when compared to Tech), you really should use CPU Ultra players. When I played another game of Magic vs Tech with CPU Ultras... Magic won - and did no foolishness like before...

That's what instructions are for........

1. The map works alright but it puts the players too close to each other with no obstacles in between so the game ends pretty quickly and you don't get to see all the factions' trees progress. Basically, the basic to medium units finish the game one side or the other.

That means that they aren't well balanced.....
I watch Tech and Romans beat each other up for over an hour before one just barely beat the other which means the balance is very good.
Besides the map is designed to make the game short so that you can get the balance results fast.

3. Also related to point 1, as someone noted, there are no obstacles in between the players and pathfinding resumes to running around freely. Much could benefit from placing objects like trees, mountains and water simmetrically between the two players:
  i. It would make the game longer, giving time for the factions to progress more along their trees.
  ii. It would test some larger units' manouverability as well as underline the air units usefulness (presentally an advantage pretty much useless regarding) and unbalancing capabilities.
  iii. In GAE, water fields would be essencial to test water units...

1: The point is to get the factions balanced enough so they fight for a long enough time to achieve this.
2: Yeah I guess I could make an update sometime soon.
3: I see, so do you want me to add water to the game or make a separate map, I would prefer to just put it into the existing map.

So, in short, for a first-off frontal, open and fast confrontation between two factions, where the early units and buildings are the ones to be tested the most, THIS MAP IS FINE! Wink
But I would certainly like you to make more such maps, with larger areas, obstacles between the factions, pathfinding challenges, resource-gathering problems and anything else you can think of, to test the factions balances even further!
Like this could be the Level1 Spectators map and you could then do Level 2, 3, ...

Well the resources part doesn't matter because I put the resources the same distance from each place. If you made a place farther away where they had to get resources it would only make the game take longer.

I'll think about a level 2 version of this.

Anyways, whether you do expand on this or not, thanks for the good work, Archmage! Wink

Your Welcome!.......again...........

[Scenariole]

1 thing, when I test the magitech here, the magic always sends dragons to kill my little base...

[-Archmage-]

I'm pretty sure there is no way to stop that......
But don't worry although it may waste their units and throw the balance off it give them more kills......

[jda]

I've tested this like a couple days ago.

My short opinion of it:
WORKS! Wink

Glad to hear it!

Well, actually I forgot to say something to the unaware user (not Archmage, he knows it already! lol): So you can see the other factions (aside your own), you'll have to disable Fog of War. Edit your glest.ini file and make sure the Fog of War is disabled (set to 0):

Code: [Select]

FogOfWar=0

To the user:
In the package-included instructions, you'll find Archmage tells you to set two CPU Ultra players to play against each other (and also the human observer as third player but that's not the point here).
Well... I went against Archmage's instructions and set two non-ultra CPU players to battle each other (player 1 Magic vs player 2 Tech). I realized this was NOT the best option when Magic started endlessly producing Summoners! There were some 12-16 of these just before Tech begun slaying them off. The Magic summoners are of course fundamental in Magic strategy but not in those numbers - that was just a waste of time and resources.
So... if you're balancing a faction with more complex gameplay (such as Magic when compared to Tech), you really should use CPU Ultra players. When I played another game of Magic vs Tech with CPU Ultras... Magic won - and did no foolishness like before...

That's what instructions are for........

lol. Yes, it is.

1. The map works alright but it puts the players too close to each other with no obstacles in between so the game ends pretty quickly and you don't get to see all the factions' trees progress. Basically, the basic to medium units finish the game one side or the other.

That means that they aren't well balanced.....
I watch Tech and Romans beat each other up for over an hour before one just barely beat the other which means the balance is very good.
Besides the map is designed to make the game short so that you can get the balance results fast.

Well, you may be right (though my untouched Magitech tree should be balanced!! But I did let the game play in a window for a good while (yeah, I forgot about it) but I still gave a look or two in the earlier stages and got the impression the Tech were being slaughtered already... They may have recovered at some point and then again the Magic recovered later.
Just to make sure, I've started another game just a few minutes ago...
And... 15 minutes later, there was only one or two big battles (close to the bases) so far and the Magic already have Drake riders and the Tech have horsemen and catapults.
So you're definitely right. Sorry 'bout my lame comment on my earlier post. 

3. Also related to point 1, as someone noted, there are no obstacles in between the players and pathfinding resumes to running around freely. Much could benefit from placing objects like trees, mountains and water simmetrically between the two players:
  i. It would make the game longer, giving time for the factions to progress more along their trees.
  ii. It would test some larger units' manouverability as well as underline the air units usefulness (presentally an advantage pretty much useless regarding) and unbalancing capabilities.
  iii. In GAE, water fields would be essencial to test water units...

1: The point is to get the factions balanced enough so they fight for a long enough time to achieve this.
2: Yeah I guess I could make an update sometime soon.
3: I see, so do you want me to add water to the game or make a separate map, I would prefer to just put it into the existing map.

Your point 1 understood and taken!
2. Nice
3. Well, the problem with putting water into the existing map is that you would actually have to consider its strategic importance. Like there are anfibious units, shalow water, deep water, ... and not only would you need to think of giving room for all of that but also how a faction with some sort of water units would balance against another without water units. I mean, in such a confrontation, the factions just can not be balanced regardless of the map!
If you could get a map to do that - to show a balance between a non-water faction and a water-faction, that'd be great. Problem is you don't control what other modders do with water units... And it all becomes too complicated!
So, probably, a different map specifically for water units would be best IMO.

So, in short, for a first-off frontal, open and fast confrontation between two factions, where the early units and buildings are the ones to be tested the most, THIS MAP IS FINE! Wink
But I would certainly like you to make more such maps, with larger areas, obstacles between the factions, pathfinding challenges, resource-gathering problems and anything else you can think of, to test the factions balances even further!
Like this could be the Level1 Spectators map and you could then do Level 2, 3, ...

Well the resources part doesn't matter because I put the resources the same distance from each place. If you made a place farther away where they had to get resources it would only make the game take longer.

I disagree, it does matter! You put the resources close to both bases. Had you put them further away, the walk speed, harvest speed and max load of the gathering units.
Would you play Magic and Tech in such a map, you'd notice Tech would have an advantage as workers can carry a greater load than initiates. Try such a map with the dwarves and their miners superior harvest speed and max load would greatly benefit them.
I am pretty sure you'd see changes in factions' balance were you to compare them on this currect map of yours or another one that had resources farther away from the bases.

BTW, the latest game ended now. Magic won again (CPU Ultra for both teams), making Magic 2 - Tech 0. Magic took 40 minutes to destroy the Tech Castle and less than 5 more to clean up the rest. Tech however got more kills and less deaths.
Trouble is Magic just kept pressuring Tech and got to make all their units (incl. dragons and behemoths). Tech never did get to build an air unit nor (apparently) attack the Magic base! Tech did build an airport but it was destroyed soon afterwards. They also did build a balista but that didn't last long either. You could say dragons burned Tech down...

So, as you see, this map CAN give you an idea on factions balance. However, maps do play an important role too and unless you make factions dully like each other, perfect balance will never be acomplished.
If you do give some less straight-forward advantages or weaknesses to one faction and not another, you'll notice that, in different circumstances (maps and so on), the different factions can be considered "balanced". IMHO.

Your map is still a very valuable tool. Even more if you make a new one or improve this one.

[-Archmage-]

Quote
I've tested this like a couple days ago.

My short opinion of it:
WORKS! Wink

Glad to hear it!
Well, actually I forgot to say something to the unaware user (not Archmage, he knows it already! lol): So you can see the other factions (aside your own), you'll have to disable Fog of War. Edit your glest.ini file and make sure the Fog of War is disabled (set to 0):
Code:

FogOfWar=0

That is unneeded, you simply put yourself on the same team as the player in the middle of the map. Also Scenariole, that solves your problem of being attack by enemy dragons.

Quote
Quote
3. Also related to point 1, as someone noted, there are no obstacles in between the players and pathfinding resumes to running around freely. Much could benefit from placing objects like trees, mountains and water simmetrically between the two players:
  i. It would make the game longer, giving time for the factions to progress more along their trees.
  ii. It would test some larger units' manouverability as well as underline the air units usefulness (presentally an advantage pretty much useless regarding) and unbalancing capabilities.
  iii. In GAE, water fields would be essencial to test water units...

1: The point is to get the factions balanced enough so they fight for a long enough time to achieve this.
2: Yeah I guess I could make an update sometime soon.
3: I see, so do you want me to add water to the game or make a separate map, I would prefer to just put it into the existing map.
Your point 1 understood and taken! Wink
2. Nice Smiley
3. Well, the problem with putting water into the existing map is that you would actually have to consider its strategic importance. Like there are anfibious units, shalow water, deep water, ... and not only would you need to think of giving room for all of that but also how a faction with some sort of water units would balance against another without water units. I mean, in such a confrontation, the factions just can not be balanced regardless of the map!
If you could get a map to do that - to show a balance between a non-water faction and a water-faction, that'd be great. Problem is you don't control what other modders do with water units... And it all becomes too complicated!
So, probably, a different map specifically for water units would be best IMO.

1&2: Ok.
3: I'm going to let someone else create a map for that, and hit those problems. Those problems would not be fun to deal with........

Quote
Quote
So, in short, for a first-off frontal, open and fast confrontation between two factions, where the early units and buildings are the ones to be tested the most, THIS MAP IS FINE! Wink
But I would certainly like you to make more such maps, with larger areas, obstacles between the factions, pathfinding challenges, resource-gathering problems and anything else you can think of, to test the factions balances even further!
Like this could be the Level1 Spectators map and you could then do Level 2, 3, ...

Well the resources part doesn't matter because I put the resources the same distance from each place. If you made a place farther away where they had to get resources it would only make the game take longer.
I disagree, it does matter! You put the resources close to both bases. Had you put them further away, the walk speed, harvest speed and max load of the gathering units.
Would you play Magic and Tech in such a map, you'd notice Tech would have an advantage as workers can carry a greater load than initiates. Try such a map with the dwarves and their miners superior harvest speed and max load would greatly benefit them.
I am pretty sure you'd see changes in factions' balance were you to compare them on this currect map of yours or another one that had resources farther away from the bases.

BTW, the latest game ended now. Magic won again (CPU Ultra for both teams), making Magic 2 - Tech 0. Magic took 40 minutes to destroy the Tech Castle and less than 5 more to clean up the rest. Tech however got more kills and less deaths.
Trouble is Magic just kept pressuring Tech and got to make all their units (incl. dragons and behemoths). Tech never did get to build an air unit nor (apparently) attack the Magic base! Tech did build an airport but it was destroyed soon afterwards. They also did build a balista but that didn't last long either. You could say dragons burned Tech down...

So, as you see, this map CAN give you an idea on factions balance. However, maps do play an important role too and unless you make factions dully like each other, perfect balance will never be acomplished.
If you do give some less straight-forward advantages or weaknesses to one faction and not another, you'll notice that, in different circumstances (maps and so on), the different factions can be considered "balanced". IMHO. Wink

Your map is still a very valuable tool. Even more if you make a new one or improve this one.

I wrote this in my Romans 2.1 post that vanished somehow......:
The point of a different/new map is to offer a new set of tactics, and to vary the balance between the factions being played.


Man, if what you're saying about Tech and Magic is true, then we need to balance them better. Not to worry, my Magitech refit is going to be well balanced.

[jda]

Man, if what you're saying about Tech and Magic is true, then we need to balance them better. Not to worry, my Magitech refit is going to be well balanced.

Actually, Archmage, the problem is not unbalance of Magic vs Tech but rather your map!
Those first two runs I mentioned, when Magic won both, I had Magic as team 1 and Tech as 2. So I switched positions for both teams, Tech as team 1 and Magic as team 2. Tech won both, and actually in about half the time!
I've read somewhere that the kind of terrain has an impact on uints' speed and stuff. Team 1 is located on like grass or something whereas team 2 is located on swamp.
It seems the swamp really makes the team which has its base on it less efficient.

[-Archmage-]

I have to fix that NOW!
Crap!

[jda]

K, just remember: shooting the messenger WON'T help!

[-Archmage-]

I didn't shoot the messenger....................
I kicked the old Spectators map off the edge of a cliff, and made a new one.

[jda]

I didn't shoot the messenger....................
I kicked the old Spectators map off the edge of a cliff, and made a new one.

lol

So the download link on the topic's first post is for the new map already?

[-Archmage-]

Oh yeah, I did that days ago.

[-Archmage-]

I just found out that I though I fixed it, but.........for some reason I didn't, this has been double checked, I have a fixed version ready now, already uploaded, please download this one, and do not use the old one, because it doesn't serve it's purpose correctly.

Fix is released!

[-Archmage-]

Could a moderator please sticky this?

[-Archmage-]

Ok, so a moderator will not sticky this.
I'm fine with that, I was just asking.

I think that I'll make a new GAE compatible one, and make the fight a diagonal one, as to avoid a new problem I just found with a vertical fight.
As 128x128 is the medium size, I'll make a map with those dimensions.

Problems with the current map:

---
Problem: For Tech, the defense towers are placed so that they are north-west of the castle, so the player in the north, doesn't get very good defense!
Solution: A diagonal battle so that both players have equal defense.
---
I was I little clumsy when placing the resources for the north player, I'll try to be as precise as possible when I place the resources on the new map.
---

[-Archmage-]

Made a new version:
SpectatorsMap-V4

An all new map.
Made from scratch, I made sure that the resources were placed symmetrically, I actually spend a bit of time re-placing things.
Although water I didn't place precisely, but I thought that wouldn't matter. Maybe sometime, I'll straiten the water.

I'm currently testing, will release after I'm done with my tests and modifications.

[-Archmage-]

I tested the map.......
Apparently there is a morale system of some kind, because my ally beat the enemy very quickly, and they were both the exact same factions!
I tried the same fight again except that time, I killed myself........the battle when on forever on fast mode. I went away from the computer for a while, come back, battles still goin on, but I couldn't kill all of my units, one of them was left alive, and it seemed the my ally was a tad stronger than the enemy.........

I'm coming up with a Spectator faction to fix the problem, the Spectator is going to have one unit and one upgrade, because if I had no units or upgrades, the game will bitch and moan.
It will also have no starting units.
This should fix the problem, I will post a download link for the all new Spectator faction and map soon.

Spectators-V4 is coming tooooooo town......
(little christmas thing....... )

[-Archmage-]

Sorry guys...........
There's nothing wrong with my map or anything, the AI plays better and worst at some times it seems, I can't get it going stably, where two of the same faction fight forever.

I'll try to come up with some kind of solution soon, already thinking of possibilities...