Author Topic: Religous Debates  (Read 96815 times)

Omega

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Religous Debates
« on: 11 March 2010, 03:07:30 »
With an offtopic board, all religious debates should be separate from the old thread. Feel free to post here, simply keep it approriant and don't flame the posters, flame the poster's IDEAS.

I'll start it off:
For those who don't believe in creationism:
This is an alternate theory I've heard before (not necessarily what I believe in, but an alternate theory nonetheless). How long is a day to god? Obviously not necessarily the same as it is to us (he *is* immortal after all). Science's 'big bang' could easily have been caused by god. The creation of life could be very gradual (a long day), thus fitting in the theory of evolution. The 'day' stated by genesis (also worthy to note right now that Genesis was created over possibly hundreds of years by multiple authors), is most likely simply a method of breaking the creation into manageable parts. Science isn't totally accurate, but it certainly fits loosely into such a theory (for those hard to believe) as long as you cut that crap about things evolving...
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modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #1 on: 13 March 2010, 03:02:59 »
I tend to think that the people who most doubt evolution do so because they do not understand it.

For those who don't believe in creationism:
Unfortunately what follows is no more of a theory than a literal interpretation of Genesis, creationism, or intelligent design.

Shall we continue what I had back in the main OT thread?

Quote
Why do you make assertions like this in a debate atmosphere?  Where is your undeniable, irrefutable proof?  There is none.

Oh there is you just ignored it!

I actually presented evidence first, which you then dismissed.  Those three YouTube videos aren't gone, you know.  Watch them, find the parts you disagree with, and list them here.  Then, using logic or data, prove them wrong.

This is the process science has to use to debunk creationist disinformation all of the time, so it is rather tiresome when you write one or two line responses and call that "debunking".

Then, after you have debunked the videos, assuming you were right, then we will look at your mediumship evidence.  But not before.  Stop avoiding the question: what is wrong with those videos?  Cite specific examples.

exactly. evolution is believed to be a gradual process and so where are the missing blocks of the jigsaw?
Plus, even if the author isn't so confident in his theory, how can we be?
Really not sure what the missing jigsaw blocks are, but I have to comment that whatever Newton thought personally about his law of gravitation, it was correct (for the most part).  So whatever Darwin thought about evolution has nothing to do with whether it is right or not.

logically, if something came into existence following another, does it necessarily mean that the latter came from the former?
eg: Suppose a train is invented after a car, (or vice-versa) it doesnt mean that trains were invented from cars does it?
No.  Neither cars nor trains are living.  They are not subject to natural selection.  They do not reproduce.  They cannot pass DNA to their offspring.  They are not subject to mutation.  And they are known to be man-made.  Animals are known to be born from their parents, not "made" so much as birthed.  Every generation is a new mix of DNA.

a very simple argument: If humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
Because...there is no reason that monkeys would die out.  Also, we did not evolve from monkeys.  Why are creationists still asking about humans evolving from monkeys again?  I answered that already!  And seeing as though I am (nearly) the only evolutionist here willing to answer these repetitive questions, I'm a little tired of it.  Monkeys and humans evolved separately.

http://www.needananswer.co.uk/questions/monkeys.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj587d5ies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDFJviGQth4

The three videos I would still like adequate responses to...

Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #2 on: 16 March 2010, 23:35:20 »
all i can say is... true true true!

Omega

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #3 on: 21 March 2010, 05:04:20 »
Right..............

We are here because we are very, very, very lucky. So how come I haven't won the lottery twenty times in a row yet? :bomb:
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #4 on: 21 March 2010, 17:12:47 »
i guess this is "slightly" on topic, cause we used up all our luck

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #5 on: 21 March 2010, 20:10:55 »
We are here because we are very, very, very lucky. So how come I haven't won the lottery twenty times in a row yet?

This is called the teleological argument.  It is faulty because it implies that order can only come from a designer, in this case God.  Unfortunately, the only way we differentiate "ordered" universes from those which are not is that they contain life.

Again, we are the only known life in the universe.  Saying that the universe was "designed" for life would be like saying that the Sahara desert was "designed" for man if there is one of my hairs there.

It seems to me that, if nothing else, the universe was designed to not have life in it, just as the Sahara was more designed for sand than people. :)

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #6 on: 29 March 2010, 02:58:11 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpeHrkbx9LU

Archmage,
Just because you're a moderator doesn't mean you've lost your opinions!  Just try to back them up this time! :)
« Last Edit: 29 March 2010, 03:00:12 by Sir modman »

-Archmage-

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #7 on: 29 March 2010, 11:41:26 »
Sorry, Evolution is too obviously unworkable... :P

I don't have to answer to Evolution, YOU have to answer to.......psychic abilities.........love...............

You have a ton to disprove, you have to disprove that we are spiritual beings, and I far as I know quantum physics is related with all this stuff, but I'm no expert there....

I don't care how much proof you think you have, you have to tell us all why Evolution doesn't fit what's been happening. ::)
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modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #8 on: 30 March 2010, 00:55:01 »
I don't have to answer to Evolution, YOU have to answer to.......psychic abilities.........love...............
You are correct in your assertion that the burden of proof lies on me for love, psychic abilities, well...I always notice that psychics are most "skilled" at their "craft" when it is impossible to disprove what they are saying and also when your money is in their pockets. :D

You have a ton to disprove, you have to disprove that we are spiritual beings...
Well, the burden of proof actually lies on you for this one.  You have to show that there is such a thing as a spirit, 'k?

...and I far as I know quantum physics is related with all this stuff, but I'm no expert there....
In the same way quantum physics relates to fairies.  Not really.

It's interesting you bring up QP though, because I wanted to point out that it has proved that not everything has a cause, for example the random decay of a radioactive uranium atom.  What caused that?

I don't care how much proof you think you have, you have to tell us all why Evolution doesn't fit what's been happening. ::)
You may want to elaborate here.  But elaboration is good.  Healthy skepticism is good as well; religion is all that this will hurt.  I want to share a video with y'all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rqw4krMOug

BTW what's up wit' the youtube button?  I'm using the new theme if that helps...

ultifd

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #9 on: 30 March 2010, 01:04:15 »
BTW what's up wit' the youtube button?  I'm using the new theme if that helps...
Omega didn't fix that yet... I think.  ::)

As for the discussion, umm...  :|  ::)
 :thumbup:

Omega

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #10 on: 30 March 2010, 16:44:13 »
Omega didn't fix that yet... I think.  ::)
Whats wrong with the youtube button?
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ultifd

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #11 on: 30 March 2010, 23:22:09 »
Omega didn't fix that yet... I think.  ::)
Whats wrong with the youtube button?
Umm... it's not there....  ::)  (for me at least  ::)
Modman probably has a different problem...I think.  :|
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[URL=http://img532.imageshack.us/i/ss12h.jpg/][IMG]http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9705/ss12h.jpg[/img][/URL]
Quote
Also, something is wrong with the...  ::)
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[URL=http://img44.imageshack.us/i/screenshot23i.jpg/][IMG]http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1234/screenshot23i.jpg[/img][/URL]
What is wrong with it? Are you refering to the slight bit of white around the buttons? I suppose I MIGHT be able to fix that by replacing the alpha with an actual grey, although it would mean no background changes (ie: it's grey now, it'll always be grey).
Umm...let's see. yeah.
I also didn't see any youtube bbcode or spoiler.  ::)

But uh.... continue this discussion in the Board Changes topic...  ::)

Omega

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #12 on: 3 April 2010, 03:04:09 »
Happy easter ya'all! Good friday here!

Now, as the ULTIMATE religious discussion, all atheists bow down before jesus for giving you a week off of school. At least ACT grateful!  :angel:
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modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #13 on: 4 April 2010, 01:36:39 »
Now, as the ULTIMATE religious discussion, all atheists bow down before jesus for giving you a week off of school. At least ACT grateful!  :angel:

They can't give us any less than 36 weeks of school in my district, and they don't want any more.  Giving a week off of school in the middle of the school year is better to them than tacking it on to the twelve I get in summer.  So there. :D

Plus, it's called "spring break" here.

Loronal

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #14 on: 4 April 2010, 12:45:08 »
Love doesnt exist it doesnt have logic nor does attraction in all terms God doesnt have logic so I deny his existince. All though I do want the afterlife to have floating people serving milkshakes ;D
  Wait so acording to omega jesus is the easter bunny?

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #15 on: 4 April 2010, 16:22:49 »
All though I do want the afterlife to have floating people serving milkshakes ;D

I wouldn't mind going to any paradise.  I also would like a million bucks to drive up in my driveway too.  But I realize that neither is likely, and the latter is actually more likely.  This is because we can prove that such a thing as $ million exists, however no one can honestly say that they can prove the existence of any afterlife.

Mark

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #16 on: 4 April 2010, 18:05:51 »
Hey Omega, you spelled 'religious' wrong.  You spelled it r-e-l-i-g-o-u-s, it is spelled r-e-l-i-g-i-o-u-s.  Please change that before someone else notices.

In other news, Arch, no offense intended (I really only want you to rephrase your rhetoric) but your argument about answering to psychic abilities and love is confusing if it is to be taken seriously.  Psychic abilities are very often fakes, and for that matter very few have ever been accepted by the scientific community.  One American actor, when hypnotized, could recall five previous lifetimes, could speak fluid French, and provided an accurate depiction of life as a renaissance-era cavalryman.  When he emerged, he could do none of these things.  This may be one of the few cases ever really acknowledged, and the ones like it are completely irrelevant to the debate of evolution's veracity, Yahweh's existence, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  About love- nothing in the human love concept escapes that which is seen in the wild, or can be explained logically by combining the human factors of heightened creativity and abstract thinking and what is seen in the aforementioned wilderness.  Monkeys and great apes love and have been shown to have complex feelings of passion for each other, and each other's well-being.  Even lions often fight to the death to defend their cubs and lionesses from marauding coalitions of young lions.  Case in point, what exactly does love show in humans that makes creation more likely than evolution, not the other way around?

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #17 on: 4 April 2010, 18:45:22 »
How does creationism explain why all mammals share many of the same physical traits?  These include live birth, fur, etc.  For a more complete list, look here.

If creationism were true, we could expect that each of these features would be distributed just about evenly throughout the animal kingdom; this is obviously not the case.

Response?

-Archmage-

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #18 on: 5 April 2010, 18:24:12 »
There are signs of creation everywhere, why do animals have all the right instincts so that they survive on their own.
Why does my body keep breathing, why do I wake up when I have to go pee in the middle of the night?

You guys have yet to present your view of evolution, just say exactly how you think evolution works, because it seems that there are a lot of different understandings here....

Why the hell can I walk, why is it that my body is designed well enough so I can run, why don't my hands randomly flutter around disconnect and crawl away, why is it that we are nothing like robots?

I mean, seriously, where are the half monkey half humans, there really should be more of them than Humans!

There may not be a "god", but there must be a powerful being with the ability to create things!
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modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #19 on: 5 April 2010, 19:50:14 »
There are signs of creation everywhere

If there were, why does my Spidey sense tell me that each of the phenomena you're about to point out are predicted by evolution?  In other words, find something evolution does not predict, and this means you'll have to research the topic yourself.  And a gaming forum is not the place to do this.

I genuinely think you would not be having this debate if you had an understanding of at least how evolution works.  This is the case with the majority of creationists.

why do animals have all the right instincts so that they survive on their own.

By now I've realized you'll never watch the videos I posted above in their entirety.  I'll answer your question, though.  The answer is that if animals did not have the right instincts to survive, they would die.  This means they would have fewer offspring.

Why does my body keep breathing

*Sigh* This is controlled by the Brainstem unconsciously.  Animals like fish lack basically everything but the brainstem.  This makes them less intelligent/aware.  As life evolved from simpler life forms, the brain added to the brainstem, not replaced it.

why do I wake up when I have to go pee in the middle of the night?

So you don't...pee on yourself?!  Seriously though, not everyone does. <---Link

You guys have yet to present your view of evolution, just say exactly how you think evolution works, because it seems that there are a lot of different understandings here....

No, there is yours (not sure we can consider it an understanding since you want an explanation) and that of the scientific community.  Anyways, I thought I explained it very well:

Quote
Do you deny any of these properties? If so, which ones, and most importantly, why?

The reason that watches and everything else which is created (i.e. not life) does not evolve is simple: watches do not die or reproduce, and are thus not subject to natural selection.

I'll provide links of evidence now:
1)
Code: [Select]
[url=http://aklemai.com/albums/forum/obvious.gif]Everything dies[/url].
2) Organisms who are suited to their environment live longer to produce more offspring
Code: [Select]
[url=http://206.130.110.244/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/saratanis2007-08-20fish_out_of_water1.JPG]The converse is also true[/url].
3) Offspring are different than their parents.

Why the hell can I walk, why is it that my body is designed well enough so I can run


Because animals that don’t run well enough will be killed.

Code: [Select]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QxdSTrwwE&feature=related[/youtube]
why don't my hands randomly flutter around disconnect and crawl away, why is it that we are nothing like robots?

I think you’re a little confused.  You’re arguing against evolution by natural processes, not against design.  Robots are designed.  So may I posit the question to you?  I won’t; I know you’ll write off the complexity of life by using a supernatural being you nor I have or will see who has infinite supposed powers.

I mean, seriously, where are the half monkey half humans, there really should be more of them than Humans!

Code: [Select]
[url=http://www.darwiniana.org/hominid.htm]There are plenty of them.[/url]  You just can’t decide which ones are all ape and which are all human.  That’s because they’re transitional; they’re not supposed to be just one or the other.

But please explain, using your knowledge of evolution, why there really should be more “half monkey half humans” than humans if humans are better suited to their environment.

That’s like saying that because they came first, there should be more Model-T’s than Dodge Vipers.

There may not be a "god", but there must be a powerful being with the ability to create things!

Wonderful.  If you could please provide some valid, sound evidence, you would be the first in the history of man.  But thanks for the opinion.
« Last Edit: 13 April 2016, 21:36:18 by filux »

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #20 on: 5 April 2010, 20:14:53 »
Thanks for not answering most of my questions, I'm done arguing with you, you're just avoiding the truth.
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modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #21 on: 6 April 2010, 18:01:40 »
Thanks for not answering most of my questions, I'm done arguing with you, you're just avoiding the truth.

First off, I see writing a 600+ character post as an odd way to not answer questions.  If I was really interested in not doing so, I would simply have ignored this topic.

Secondly, if you say I did not answer most of your questions, this means that you consider a portion of them answered.  Might you address them?

If you do not want the appearance of avoiding the truth yourself, you should not stop debating.  But leaving a debate and accusing me of "avoiding the truth" is a mark of immaturity.

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #22 on: 6 April 2010, 18:06:12 »
I really don't care what you believe, it's very very very obvious that we were created, by what, no one knows, but we must have been created, and I'm going to kinda retreat from this debate now, because it's pointless, it uses my time, and no one here is going to convince anyone else of anything.
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #23 on: 6 April 2010, 18:14:43 »
arch, you push everything onto us, give me ONE post, were you actually responded with intelligence...

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #24 on: 6 April 2010, 19:41:06 »
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[img]http://www.marsesa.9f.com/slide_shows/AS10-32-4822/ThreeWiseMonkeys_A1.jpg[/img]
« Last Edit: 13 April 2016, 21:36:39 by filux »