Religous Debates

[wyvern]

I wouldn't say thats necessarily true

[Gabbe]

Me neither, but now i found my counter-argument to d.h, the bible says that MAN could TAKE the women as their "own" but it says nothing about the womens thoughts, this is just before Noah and his Ark.

[xxcatmysteryxx]

I wouldn't have known; but now I know, there is only one book in different languages.... thanks

Bearing in mind that the bible is not a single book, but a collection of books, letters, and gospels.

In school in english we are learning about Afghanistan and I have to learn about there religion. fun  

[Omega]

Hmph... Afghanistan is a MESS. To my understanding, the majority would be muslims. So that's not the bible (bible is for christians). Muslim use some other book. Koran I believe..?

[Gabbe]

yes, The Israel made the mess... and the US fueled it...

[wyvern]

The war in afghanistan is pointless there isn't much to fight for but I guess you're right Gabbe freedom's sort of worth it though I find it sad to see young people dying without apparent results.

[Gabbe]

The freedom, and make sure those countires do not aquire nukes...Ensure the safety of the western world etc.

[wyvern]

Well I guess your right but I have think that blocking them off from the outside world will work just as well only that it will cost less live, build a big barb wire fence around afghanistan and make sure they don't get the materials for such weapons. Afghanistan is a really unstable country.

[Gabbe]

Terrorists attack the Western forces in the middle-east region all the time, setting up a fence won`t work, even with defenses, as they already posses bombs to break through, and i belive Iran already started nuclear production and they said that Europe should suffer from their vengeance, oh well, drop one fo your nukes and kill the world...

[@kukac@]

Wyvern, I would like to see, what would you do, if you were enclosed into a "big barb wire fence". USA is fighting for freedom. ... of Afghanistan...

[wyvern]

I agree with sending aid but in a more limited way, also I'm fine with letting people travel in and out do as they please, but we would be able to check people for weapons, weapon plans etc. I don't mean to be cruel but I think afghanistan is a tough country to deal with, especially if you look at history. Sorry if I'm really pessimistic, I just got really angry :'( :'(

[wyvern]

I think I'm scared afghanistan is another Vietnam war in the making, unless we find a quick solution it will deteriorate into a slow bloody defeat, just like the one Russia and Britain suffered in the past, the afghanis are extremely fierce about their independence(the vietnamese are similar in this as they bushwacked the chinese when they invaded) and they should be left to deal with the problem themselves, even if we have to send them weapons and supplies to do it they should eventually manage.

[Gabbe]

Afghan, Iraq and Iran are all trouble countries, all they cause is trouble and war. Wyvern, i agree with you that if i could be secure for any nukes i would gladly close those countries, and the majority of people live in the Europe, this includes me and im not thinking of the strvation of the other U-Countries, i think of the middle east specific, so it becomes Middle-east vs Western countries, Midlle-east 1 guy, Western countries 100 guys, who wins? We and the terrorists don`t care, but closing the middle-east won`t help, the terrorists still have bombs and they are willing to go suicide missions, it would turn out, and still is a hell.

I am also angry, but im angry at the terrorists, and they are muslims, and they are the majority of muslims and they follow the Koran as it tells them to do, this makes them REAL muslims, and real muslims are a threat to earth, if those ignorant basterds drop one nuke, half the world die. This is why US continues the war, and NATO. There are no arguments other than religious to not war with the muslims, trust me, without religion, the human race could have been much more advanced...

[wyvern]

I cooled down a bit and thought and you know what Gabbe I agree with you completely.

[Gabbe]

I think im going to backup my statement:

Without religion we would not have any middle-ages, and during the medieval times technology was forbidden, how does that sound? "your ill but you can`t have a well educated doctor to cure you because hes a evil mage and god doesn`t want it". Then valuable science-people were executed, why? because the earth was apparantly flat, you know when the catholic church apologized for the execution? during the 20th century!
Still we belive in creationism (not reply to that here), christianity, god etc. Imagine if you could choose between a poisoned world or a world almost perfect? The poisoned world is our current world and the almost perfect one would be the one without stupid religious beliefs. Wichy one would you rather live in? The one full of problems wich could have been solved a long time ago? just asking questions to enlighten your minds

PS. You want references? search google...

[wyvern]

I agree in that point as well, and the christians also burned the library of alexandria because it contained un christian content but the muslims are no better they use innocent civilians as shields and then they blame the NATO, US, or Western Countries for a firefight near a school etc... As I said I agree with everything you have said so far Gabbe but that which we have currently said is generally when a religion goes into the extreme, look there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.

[Gabbe]

look there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.

Yes, they call themselves what they cannot be. No christian will ever go to heaven because there are no other than Jesus who lived as all humans should according to the bible.

[John.d.h]

look there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.

Yes, they call themselves what they cannot be. No christian will ever go to heaven because there are no other than Jesus who lived as all humans should according to the bible.

The problem is that they don't follow what they supposedly believe.  If every Christian followed the Bible and every Muslim followed the Koran, the world would be a better place.  Instead, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their behavior, and that's never a good thing.  Nearly all major religions have the same basic tenants (be kind to each other, help people who need it, be honest, be generous, etc.), but instead of focusing on the greater good, they bicker about pointless crap that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Same-sex marriage is a great example.  People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side.  Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?

[Omega]

I actually support the war in Afghanistan because I believe that everywhere deserves complete (not totally lawless complete, but similar to Canada [Not USA though, with its president and his 'Health Plan']) freedom. This includes freedom from terrorist organizations like the Taliban. You notice that NATO forces do NOT kill civilians, contrasted to terrorists, who will happily kill a stranger off the street for no reason. The ability to live life without constant fear that someone will murder you in the street (or that a plan will fall from the sky and hit you) is a basic human need. I believe everyone has the right to live according to the universal declaration of human rights.

Like John said in his last post, people use religion to 'justify' their attacks. NOWHERE in ANY holy book, may it be the bible or any other book, or even in unwritten teachings does it state that violence is a good thing. Virtually all modern religions have a variation of the golden rule (Thou shall do unto others what they would have others do unto you). ALL religions teach peace and prosperity.

I will NOT deny that the [Catholic] Church had committed atrocities in the past, notably the refusal to admit the world is round and the burning of 'Witches' at the stake. However, I believe people learn from their mistakes (eventually) and that shows the errors of MAN, not god. The church is simply a method of worshipping god. It is not god, it is not needed to learn more of god, nor to find the path to goodness. Man is in decision of his own fate, he can choose whether or not to follow god and his laws (the world will certainly be more peaceful if you do, though don't make the church's mistake with taking things too literally.

I think I'm scared afghanistan is another Vietnam war in the making, unless we find a quick solution it will deteriorate into a slow bloody defeat,

They will not defeat it. Almost every major general agrees to that point. While there is an ongoing NATO offensive at the moment, the main plan is to train their police forces. Of course, the states DID try that for vietnam (and we all know what happened there), but I expect better here. This isn't USA's solo battle, but the whole of NATO, including Canada (*roaring applause*), UK, USA, etc, etc;

Same-sex marriage is a great example.  People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side.  Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?

BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that. Yes, health care is a better thing to spend it on, but in USA, seeing your president's current approach (I'm estimating by the end of his term, USA will hit 15 Trillion in debt), that's not a very smart idea. Education is a must. If I recall correctly, you americans don't pay your teachers well enough (I want to be a teacher). Here in Canada, an expected 55-60k/year is average for elementary/secondary teachers. That's enough for me! 

[Gabbe]

Like John said in his last post, people use religion to 'justify' their attacks. NOWHERE in ANY holy book, may it be the bible or any other book, or even in unwritten teachings does it state that violence is a good thing. Virtually all modern religions have a variation of the golden rule (Thou shall do unto others what they would have others do unto you). ALL religions teach peace and prosperity.

I belive the Koran says something about that if you die for this religion you are going to heaven. Christianity is a threat to Islam, thats why the terrorists get motivated to bomb western civilisations, in exchange for their life here on earth, they get full-pleasure heaven satistified.

I actually support the war in Afghanistan because I believe that everywhere deserves complete (not totally lawless complete, but similar to Canada [Not USA though, with its president and his 'Health Plan']) freedom. This includes freedom from terrorist organizations like the Taliban. You notice that NATO forces do NOT kill civilians, contrasted to terrorists, who will happily kill a stranger off the street for no reason. The ability to live life without constant fear that someone will murder you in the street (or that a plan will fall from the sky and hit you) is a basic human need. I believe everyone has the right to live according to the universal declaration of human rights.

I think it is good with A LOT of freedom, Imagine a world were some were rich, some were poor, everyone had complete freedom to do what they want, Imagine the chaos, the hate, the wars, it would probably be good if there were something i didn`t know about how the US special operators work...See how many hate the progress the war in the middle-east is going.

I will NOT deny that the [Catholic] Church had committed atrocities in the past, notably the refusal to admit the world is round and the burning of 'Witches' at the stake. However, I believe people learn from their mistakes (eventually) and that shows the errors of MAN, not god. The church is simply a method of worshipping god. It is not god, it is not needed to learn more of god, nor to find the path to goodness. Man is in decision of his own fate, he can choose whether or not to follow god and his laws (the world will certainly be more peaceful if you do, though don't make the church's mistake with taking things too literally.

Why do you belive in God?

Quote from: wyvern on April 21, 2010, 07:09:09 PM
I think I'm scared afghanistan is another Vietnam war in the making, unless we find a quick solution it will deteriorate into a slow bloody defeat,
They will not defeat it. Almost every major general agrees to that point. While there is an ongoing NATO offensive at the moment, the main plan is to train their police forces. Of course, the states DID try that for vietnam (and we all know what happened there), but I expect better here. This isn't USA's solo battle, but the whole of NATO, including Canada (*roaring applause*), UK, USA, etc, etc;

But the US is the main component of the war, and a symbol of western culture.

Quote from: John.d.h on April 21, 2010, 09:49:20 PM
Same-sex marriage is a great example.  People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side.  Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?
BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that. Yes, health care is a better thing to spend it on, but in USA, seeing your president's current approach (I'm estimating by the end of his term, USA will hit 15 Trillion in debt), that's not a very smart idea. Education is a must. If I recall correctly, you americans don't pay your teachers well enough (I want to be a teacher). Here in Canada, an expected 55-60k/year is average for elementary/secondary teachers. That's enough for me!  Wink

Thats around 60000 NOK, 60,000?!? how in the hell!?! thats very small amount! My mom is a teacher and she earn like 60 000 0 NOK EACH YEAR, thats 10 times yours!

look there are plenty of good muslims and christians out there.

Yes, they call themselves what they cannot be. No christian will ever go to heaven because there are no other than Jesus who lived as all humans should according to the bible.

The problem is that they don't follow what they supposedly believe.  If every Christian followed the Bible and every Muslim followed the Koran, the world would be a better place.  Instead, a lot of people use religion as an excuse for their behavior, and that's never a good thing.  Nearly all major religions have the same basic tenants (be kind to each other, help people who need it, be honest, be generous, etc.), but instead of focusing on the greater good, they bicker about pointless crap that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Same-sex marriage is a great example.  People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side.  Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?

'

If everyone follow those books, the world would still be in the ancient times. The old Testament is a great example, all what is in it (almost) is rules on how you should life, and this does not apply to our current society. That the bible and any holy book is being miss-used is just a execuse for it (sometimes) being evil, ignorant and completely untrustable. Stand by for examples, i am sure i read on just a sec ago, The hippies could`ve been thos e who followed the bible, oh wait, does the bible allow for sex at all (joke)?

[John.d.h]

Stuck in ancient times?  Why, because people would still value traits like peace, patience, kindness, etc.?  In a heartbeat I'd trade the internet and indoor plumbing for living in a world where people treat each other the right way.

BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that.

You can't stop them from doing anything.  If two men or two women (or two men, three women [two of whom are sisters], and a bulldog) desire to do so, you can't keep them from meeting, dating, having a wedding with a big cake and all their family and friends, having sex, adopting children (or using surrogates, whatever), and so on.  They can live their lives and do every single other thing that a traditional heterosexual couple does, and there's not a darn thing you can do to stop that.  I think a lot of people don't realize it, but the thing they're actually fighting over is whether or not the government recognizes their marriage as "official" in a document in some government archive.  If I get married some day, regardless of whether it is to a man or woman, no amount of government recognition is going make my marriage any more or less real.  I'm not saying that I'm for same-sex marriage and I'm not saying that I'm against it.  I'm saying that it doesn't actually matter because what's being fought over isn't what people on either side of the debate think it is.  If I had to sit down and hammer out a list of the top 100 issues people should be pouring their money and effort into, whether or not somebody's name gets put on a marriage license wouldn't even come close to appearing on that list.

[@kukac@]

Omega, you are looking the thing upside down: you said "Arabian countries are not free, because they have terrorists", but the truth is that "Arabian countries have terrorists, because they are not free".

Evil is, what you call evil. Righteous is, what you call righteous. Do you think they attacked USA and West-EU countries, because they were just bored???

[Gabbe]

The US brought freedom to the middle-east, before they and NATO invaded people down there had NO RIGHTS it was not a democracy.

EDIT: Things have gotten better in other words.

[Omega]

Thats around 60000 NOK, 60,000?!? how in the hell!?! thats very small amount! My mom is a teacher and she earn like 60 000 0 NOK EACH YEAR, thats 10 times yours!

I think we have a currency problem here... I'm talking about Canadian dollars (which google says is 1USD=0.998302885CND, or virtually equal). Compared to american averages of 33-50k, thats much better. I dunno what NOK is...

Ah, wait, is it this:
1 Norwegian krone = 0.168985724 Canadian dollars

@Kukac: Once must bear in mind of course, that almost nobody considers themselves 'evil'. They think they're fighting for a lost cause, or something. Good and evil are all perspectives. Of course, MW2 had a good quote in it: "History is written by the victor".

[Gabbe]

"If we die, his truth become written" -Price
[Bingo! - Omega]