Author Topic: Religous Debates  (Read 97104 times)

modman

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #250 on: 23 April 2010, 02:34:53 »
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution  [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Consider a hypothetical situation in which I am a Muslim living in basically a refugee camp in Israel.  In what way should I interpret this verse, which I consider to be the absolute truth from the word of Allah, to guide my actions?

Additionally, I don't think that most people know what the penalty God declared for violation of any of the Ten Commandments.  The penalty is death.  And we haven't even considered the Great Flood, which is, shall we say, less than credible.  But drowning everyone, even all children?

The Qu'ran is pretty violent.  I would estimate it is about...twice as violent as the OT.  It also reads like the Old Testament.

Omega, you are looking the thing upside down: you said "Arabian countries are not free, because they have terrorists", but the truth is that "Arabian countries have terrorists, because they are not free".

Right.  I hold the opinion that, even though not all Arabs would promote it, violence and terrorism have become accepted.  This is because there is a very radical "fringe" of Muslims, and the religious moderates, who are not necessarily willing to kill or die for Islam, are very quiet.  Deathly quiet.

"Southpark" is a cartoon show here in the US, and they recently poked fun at Muhammad (they poke fun at everyone).  But the writers have actually received death threats from revolutionmuslim.com (I checked and it's been taken down).  Now would be a very good time for religious moderates in the US, at least, to speak up for Islam ("They do not represent Muslims", "Islam does not promote violence", etc).  But all I hear are crickets, right now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/apr/22/south-park-censored-fatwa-muhammad

I believe everyone has the right to live according to the universal declaration of human rights.

Agreed.

Like John said in his last post, people use religion to 'justify' their attacks. NOWHERE in ANY holy book, may it be the bible or any other book, or even in unwritten teachings does it state that violence is a good thing.

If you don't consider that verse I just posted to be enough for you to retract your claim, it must not be violent enough.

I will NOT deny that the [Catholic] Church had committed atrocities in the past, notably the refusal to admit the world is round and the burning of 'Witches' at the stake.

I think there would be no discussion here if no one thought the Bible could be tied to these atrocities.  The clergy abuse of children (their minds as well) is currently being uncovered.  Actually, 200 deaf children were apparently molested by a priest less than a half-hour from my city.  I'm not particularly charmed right now by the Church's acts of "piety".

Same-sex marriage is a great example.  People on both sides (for it and against it) spend millions and millions of dollars and countless hours of time advocating for/against same-sex marriage, but it's not accomplishing anything for either side.  Wouldn't all that money and effort be better spend on something that really improves the world, like education or health care?
BOO! There's nothing better to spend money on than to keep THOSE people from doing... that.

What if the homosexuals declared it to be part of their religion and considered doing "that" with their partner to be part of their faith?  In America, the religious Right considers religious freedom to be even higher up there than the Second Amendment (and that's saying something).  Anyways, I never really understood why two consenting adults can't do what they want in the privacy of their home (it's not directly harming anyone); I feel that it's their own business.  I mean, at least with abortion they at least have a case that they are advocating for another human being.

Also John, things are being accomplished, but the Right is very powerful as soon as they declare their policies to be God's will.  Probably the quickest way you can get them to stop thinking IMHO. 8)

« Last Edit: 23 April 2010, 02:59:38 by Sir modman »

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #251 on: 23 April 2010, 03:21:01 »
COncerning violence in the Bible, (or at least the OT) there is plenty, but one must remember this takes place thousands of years ago, where opinions of war and piece were different. You notice zion is destroyed and rebuilt numerous times as a result  :P.
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

modman

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #252 on: 23 April 2010, 04:44:50 »
COncerning violence in the Bible, (or at least the OT) there is plenty, but one must remember this takes place thousands of years ago, where opinions of war and piece were different. You notice zion is destroyed and rebuilt numerous times as a result  :P.

What exactly are you trying to say, that we should look at the social context to determine whether the acts are moral?  This is akin to populism, or maybe saying slavery was "OK" 200 years ago, because "everyone was doing it".

And not all of these bad acts were complete works of man, either.  Sometimes, God commanded the Israelites to slaughter various nations.  Jericho is a good example: is it that much different than Hitler's Lebensraum?  Just 'cause you want it doesn't automatically make it yours.

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #253 on: 23 April 2010, 08:53:20 »
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution  [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Consider a hypothetical situation in which I am a Muslim living in basically a refugee camp in Israel.  In what way should I interpret this verse, which I consider to be the absolute truth from the word of Allah, to guide my actions?
A passage promoting violence in one situation doesn't necessarily condone violence in others.  Of course, some people might take it that way, but that's a flaw with the reader.  A lot of religions had to fight against persecution, and Islam is no exception.  Militant Muslims just seem to have the idea that murdering non-combatants is somehow fighting for their freedom.
Quote
Additionally, I don't think that most people know what the penalty God declared for violation of any of the Ten Commandments.  The penalty is death.
Uh... duh. :P Pretty sure that is common knowledge, at least among Christians.  It's actually pretty central, as it's the only way the crucifixion makes sense because "the wage of sin is death".  The whole point is that the entire human race is corrupt and wicked (You didn't need a book to tell you that, did you?) and no matter how good you think you are, your righteousness is like filthy rags.  The understanding in the text is that they're referring to used menstrual rags, which are the single filthiest thing imaginable to a Jewish man in the first century AD.  So basically, you deserve to die and so do I, and so did Moses, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, and Mother Teresa.  From a Biblical perspective, the only person who ever lived who didn't deserve to die was Jesus Christ because he never had sin in his life, which ironically got him killed.
Quote
And we haven't even considered the Great Flood, which is, shall we say, less than credible.  But drowning everyone, even all children?
There's archaeological evidence supporting the great flood, and what's wrong with God drowning some people? (see below)
Quote
Right.  I hold the opinion that, even though not all Arabs would promote it, violence and terrorism have become accepted.  This is because there is a very radical "fringe" of Muslims, and the religious moderates, who are not necessarily willing to kill or die for Islam, are very quiet.  Deathly quiet.
If you were a Muslim and you knew people (possibly your relatives) who were cutting the heads off of people who spoke out against militant radical Islam, would you be so eager to speak out against it yourself?
(click to show/hide)
(side note: Most Arabs are Muslims, but not all Muslims are Arabs.  The terms are not interchangeable.)
Quote
The clergy abuse of children (their minds as well) is currently being uncovered.  Actually, 200 deaf children were apparently molested by a priest less than a half-hour from my city.  I'm not particularly charmed right now by the Church's acts of "piety".
What does that have to do with the Bible, though?  In fact, I'm pretty sure that'd condemned in many ways.  Then again, Catholicism has never particularly cared what the Bible says. :look:
Quote
What if the homosexuals declared it to be part of their religion and considered doing "that" with their partner to be part of their faith?  In America, the religious Right considers religious freedom to be even higher up there than the Second Amendment (and that's saying something).
Well, considering a great many of the people who came over here in the first place were fleeing religious persecution in Europe, religious freedom is basically our purpose as a nation.
Quote
Anyways, I never really understood why two consenting adults can't do what they want in the privacy of their home (it's not directly harming anyone); I feel that it's their own business.  I mean, at least with abortion they at least have a case that they are advocating for another human being.
That's basically how I feel.  Laws exist to protect people, so if the action isn't harming anyone, then who are they protecting by prohibiting it?  My opinion is that the government should do what it has to do ensure the well-being of its citizens, and GTFO of our business in all other cases.  We have laws against murder, rape, theft, fraud, etc., because those are acts that hurt people.  Some sexual laws are meant to protect people, like age of consent, but the prohibition of same-sex marriage is not one of them.
Quote
Also John, things are being accomplished, but the Right is very powerful as soon as they declare their policies to be God's will.
Well of course it's going to happen eventually.  Politics in this country lean more and more to the left over time, and AFAIK everywhere in Europe and most of the industrialized world has legalized it, so it's only a matter of time before the US caves in.
Quote
Probably the quickest way you can get them to stop thinking IMHO. 8)
You might be interested to read up on the Elaboration Likelihood Model. 
What exactly are you trying to say, that we should look at the social context to determine whether the acts are moral?  This is akin to populism, or maybe saying slavery was "OK" 200 years ago, because "everyone was doing it".
Context does affect morality.  That's why killing people in self-defense is not considered murder by the vast majority of people.  I think if you're in a world where nations and tribes live under the constant threat of invasion, rape, murder, and pillaging and your only method of survival is to kill them before they kill you, it's a very different moral landscape.
Quote
And not all of these bad acts were complete works of man, either.  Sometimes, God commanded the Israelites to slaughter various nations.  Jericho is a good example: is it that much different than Hitler's Lebensraum?  Just 'cause you want it doesn't automatically make it yours.
There's a difference between God slaughtering a nation, and a mortal dictator rounding up a group of people and killing them.  In God's case, it's because the nation is a blight upon the world and deserves to be destroyed, and in the mortal case, it's because the dictator thinks they're a blight upon the world and deserve to be destroyed.  The difference here is that God is qualified to make that judgment because, in the Biblical context, God knows everything and always makes the right call.  In the case of incidents like Jericho, the Israelites were just a method of extermination, just like the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were a method.

modman

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #254 on: 23 April 2010, 13:47:12 »
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution  [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Consider a hypothetical situation in which I am a Muslim living in basically a refugee camp in Israel.  In what way should I interpret this verse, which I consider to be the absolute truth from the word of Allah, to guide my actions?
A passage promoting violence in one situation doesn't necessarily condone violence in others.  Of course, some people might take it that way, but that's a flaw with the reader.  A lot of religions had to fight against persecution, and Islam is no exception.  Militant Muslims just seem to have the idea that murdering non-combatants is somehow fighting for their freedom.

Possibly so, but right now I'm only concerned with the fact that you agreed with me that it is a violent passage, and that Omega is mistaken in his blanket proclamation that there is no religious texts anywhere that promote violence.  My position is that 2:191-193 are violent verses.

Quote
Additionally, I don't think that most people know what the penalty God declared for violation of any of the Ten Commandments.  The penalty is death.
Uh... duh. :P Pretty sure that is common knowledge, at least among Christians.

Quote
And we haven't even considered the Great Flood, which is, shall we say, less than credible.  But drowning everyone, even all children?
There's archaeological evidence supporting the great flood, and what's wrong with God drowning some people?

How about the fact that it is impossible to cover the Earth in water?

And what about the plants?  They would have drowned underwater.  Putting them on the Ark would have risked them getting eaten (not to mention that there is no mention of plants being uprooted to take on the ark).

And how did Noah get indigenous animals onto the Ark, like polar bears?  Of course, Noah would have had to drop them off afterwords too...

There are tons of other problems too:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Quote
Right.  I hold the opinion that, even though not all Arabs would promote it, violence and terrorism have become accepted.  This is because there is a very radical "fringe" of Muslims, and the religious moderates, who are not necessarily willing to kill or die for Islam, are very quiet.  Deathly qhttp://expertgoat.com/nppxjoj.php?Oa2cjj9qhvNqI2JJnquSLg=f4A8qxkZWV%2FRXLGXTfPNWyPRIJmluGnVPRldhoGxqCn8bVq8EomOdXSZyaGU73Yfuiet.
If you were a Muslim and you knew people (possibly your relatives) who were cutting the heads off of people who spoke out against militant radical Islam, would you be so eager to speak out against it yourself?

In America, this is not happening.  In Saudi Arabia maybe, but American Muslim moderates should be speaking out.

Quote
And not all of these bad acts were complete works of man, either.  Sometimes, God commanded the Israelites to slaughter various nations.  Jericho is a good example: is it that much different than Hitler's Lebensraum?  Just 'cause you want it doesn't automatically make it yours.
There's a difference between God slaughtering a nation, and a mortal dictator rounding up a group of people and killing them.  In God's case, it's because the nation is a blight upon the world and deserves to be destroyed, and in the mortal case, it's because the dictator thinks they're a blight upon the world and deserve to be destroyed.  The difference here is that God is qualified to make that judgment because, in the Biblical context, God knows everything and always makes the right call.  In the case of incidents like Jericho, the Israelites were just a method of extermination, just like the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were a method.

If it's wrong for a dictator to try to annihilate a people, what makes God's immorality better?

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #255 on: 23 April 2010, 15:46:22 »
Slaughtering people is wrong but theres always gonna be someone tryin to conquer someone else

Omega

  • MegaGlest Team
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 6,167
  • Professional bug writer
    • View Profile
    • Personal site
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #256 on: 23 April 2010, 16:38:35 »
That's true wyvern, man eternally wants more power. I tend to disagree though. Imagine how peaceful the world could be if everyone could just realized they could live in peace with different religions. For example, many modern countries like Canada, USA, Western Europe, and Australia allow perfect freedom of religion. Of course, an individual can still be discriminated, but for the most part, the countries are free, in contrast to the middle east.

One thing I found very interesting is this. It is a letter to the pope from Muslim leaders.

I can't help but feel that people should put aside their differences and let others do as they will. Peace FTW! :P
Edit the MegaGlest wiki: http://docs.megaglest.org/

My personal projects: http://github.com/KatrinaHoffert

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #257 on: 23 April 2010, 16:40:55 »
I agree and that was interesting, the problem with religion though is when it's taken into the extreme.

@kukac@

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #258 on: 23 April 2010, 18:39:38 »
@Omega: That's great, so I can take the Ranagolic religion! (I'm thinking on voodoo too, it would be fun to eat the brains of my enemies :) )

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #259 on: 24 April 2010, 11:33:16 »
belive what you want, but realize your belief is wrong...

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #260 on: 24 April 2010, 14:30:16 »
Believe what you want, but realize that Evolution is mathematically improbable.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

@kukac@

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #261 on: 24 April 2010, 14:43:49 »
Why?

wyvern

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #262 on: 25 April 2010, 21:24:32 »
Yeah why?

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #263 on: 26 April 2010, 11:36:01 »
*facepalm*

If you seriously can tell me that there isn't a mathematical misfit with random mutations creating almost unimaginably complex beings such as Humans, then it's no wonder that you believe in Evolution.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #264 on: 26 April 2010, 12:08:27 »
Yeah, unimagineable complex, that proves that it is YOU who does not understand. You seem to constantly ignore that the environment is a part of the evolution, environment affects animals behavior, thats how it goes...

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #265 on: 26 April 2010, 12:12:59 »
So you think that the way an animal acts writes it's genome?

Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #266 on: 26 April 2010, 12:14:46 »
I don`t know, but thats how i think it works yes, perhaps ask a more educated person on the subject.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #267 on: 26 April 2010, 12:18:03 »
You're funny, but I seriously hope you don't believe that.

You also have yet to prove that there isn't a soul, or a spirit or whatever you want to call it.
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #268 on: 26 April 2010, 12:20:04 »
I really don`t want to diguiss that now, wait for someone others to come.

Prooving the spirit thing, if i cut your brain, would your spirit still keep you going?

@kukac@

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #269 on: 26 April 2010, 17:07:45 »
Arch, what do you think about those, who were driven to insanity? What happened to their so called "souls"? Have they received a constant block, or what? Because I can't really imagine that "a god" has made something to a soul. Strange, doesn't it?

John.d.h

  • Moderator
  • Airship
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,757
  • I have to go now. My planet needs me.
    • View Profile
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #270 on: 27 April 2010, 01:45:02 »
Prove there's no soul?  Uh... that's not how science works.  If you want to say that something exists, you have to prove it does... not the other way around.  What makes you think a soul exists?  Science has nothing to suggest that it does, and some religions agree (including Christianity according to some interpretations).

modman

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #271 on: 27 April 2010, 03:27:56 »
So you think that the way an animal acts writes it's genome?

No, but it [the environment] is crucial in the trial and error process that is natural selection.

You're funny, but I seriously hope you don't believe that.

You also have yet to prove that there isn't a soul, or a spirit or whatever you want to call it.

Seriously, cut the condescending crap.  Basically saying you're laughing at someone's best attempt at anything is mean.

Honestly, the term soul is IMO something from a long time ago when people had no idea where thoughts came from.

Prove there's no soul?  Uh... that's not how science works.  If you want to say that something exists, you have to prove it does... not the other way around.  What makes you think a soul exists?  Science has nothing to suggest that it does, and some religions agree (including Christianity according to some interpretations).

Exactly.  If you're going to ask science to prove or disprove something, provide evidence.  Also, come up with a hypothesis.

Where is this information stored (the information about your personality and your memory), and how exactly does it make decisions?

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #272 on: 27 April 2010, 11:15:56 »
Quote
Arch, what do you think about those, who were driven to insanity? What happened to their so called "souls"?

Your brain gets screwed up, and you can't use it properly. :|



Quote
Prove there's no soul?  Uh... that's not how science works.  If you want to say that something exists, you have to prove it does... not the other way around.  What makes you think a soul exists?  Science has nothing to suggest that it does, and some religions agree (including Christianity according to some interpretations).

I mainly said that because I believe it, and secondly because I wanted to raise the argument again.



Quote
Quote from: -Archmage- on April 26, 2010, 09:17:47
So you think that the way an animal acts writes it's genome?

No, but it [the environment] is crucial in the trial and error process that is natural selection.

Cool, but you still haven't gotten past the random change problem....



Quote
Basically saying you're laughing at someone's best attempt at anything is mean.

I'm not laughing at him, I'm laughing at the theory he's presenting, because I simply think it's ridiculous, it's just kinda funny.
And I'm kinda being a little tough and mean, just so you guys get a glimpse of Evolutionary morals.



Quote
Honestly, the term soul is IMO something from a long time ago when people had no idea where thoughts came from.

Well, maybe it came from a long ago, but it's the word we use, or would you rather I say spirit.



Quote
Exactly.  If you're going to ask science to prove or disprove something, provide evidence.

The fact that we have a will points to a 'spirit thingy'.
Has anyone programmed a robot to do things and then do something that it's not exactly "supposed" to do?
No.

I am willing my body to eat this spaghetti for breakfast, and so I'm eating it, of course if I wanted I could spill it all over the floor.....



Quote
Also, come up with a hypothesis.

I already have a very generic and open belief(not a hypothesis), which I am refining as I learn more and more.



Quote
Where is this information stored (the information about your personality and your memory), and how exactly does it make decisions?

How the hell am I supposed to figure that out?! :look:
We're talking about stuff that may be well beyond Human comprehension..... :|
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

Gabbe

  • Guest
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #273 on: 27 April 2010, 13:10:54 »
Quote
Quote
Where is this information stored (the information about your personality and your memory), and how exactly does it make decisions?

How the hell am I supposed to figure that out?! Look
We're talking about stuff that may be well beyond Human comprehension..... No Opinion

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Working memory is the executive and attentional aspect of short-term memory involved in the interim integration, processing, disposal, and retrieval of information. Working memory tasks include the active monitoring or manipulation of information or behaviors. It is a theoretical construct within cognitive psychology and neuroscience. Theories exist both regarding the theoretical structure of working memory and the role of specific parts of the brain involved in working memory. Furthermore, research identifies that the frontal cortex, parietal cortex, anterior cingulate, and parts of the basal ganglia are crucial for working memory function. Generally, the neural basis of working memory has been derived from lesion experiments in animals and functional imaging upon humans.

Im not sure what all of it means but i think it may clarify something.

-Archmage-

  • Moderator
  • Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 5,887
  • Make it so.
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #274 on: 27 April 2010, 14:05:13 »
I don't think that's what he was talking about...
Egypt Remastered!

Proof: Owner of glest@mail.com

 

anything