Author Topic: Religous Debates  (Read 97114 times)

Omega

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #325 on: 1 May 2010, 01:49:30 »
Interesting point, but I don't argue DNA. It's not my strong point and genetics bore me (yeah sure I might get those green eyes from my mother, but does it make a difference?).

Damn you're arrogant.  It's astounding for someone who is, hmmm, only 13 and has been a member of the forums for a little over a year.  How many times does Omega have to tell you to pipe down?
Pipe down modman.

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Flame the person's ideas, not the person.

So if "any attempt by the DNA to change is stopped and reversed," I guess we wouldn't have to worry about cancer.  The truth is, there is some error checking, but it isn't foolproof.  I don't really want to take AP Bio (I hate wrote memorization; this is why I hate Spanish too), so I'm only going off my one semester biology overview course.
Even god isn't perfect (otherwise there wouldn't be people doubting him here...) It's like a web designer making a page with a lot of checks to stop bad information from being entered only for someone to exploit it with cross-browser scripting language.
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modman

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Debate: Debunking Creationist Arguments Video
« Reply #326 on: 1 May 2010, 01:53:21 »
Standard Rules
Since I started this topic, I believe I should make some ground rules.  Feel free to quote these if someone violates them, and hopefully I can keep my dignity by not breaking them myself.  I'll add more as I see fit.

1. Do not make blanket statements or claims that cannot be supported with evidence or logic.  If you cannot explain why something is evidence, you obviously do not understand it well enough to claim it to be evidence.  I suggest dealing with violations of this rule like this:
Quote from: Unsupportable Claim
blanket statements or claims
Boooo...  Violation of rule one. ::)

2. Non-constructive one-liners, for example simply stating "I agree" or "you're wrong" are not helpful for debate and should probably be deleted by moderators, since they add nothing by post count and your avatar.  And, I have to scroll though a bunch of garbage, wasting everyone's time.

3. Religious documents should not be represented as anything but anecdotal evidence.  See rule one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSxgnu3Hww8

Debate Question: Are the main arguments in this video valid?
If your opinion is no, specify and defend your reasoning or no credence can be given to your comment.
« Last Edit: 1 May 2010, 01:55:28 by Sir modman »

modman

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #327 on: 1 May 2010, 02:22:23 »
Interesting point, but I don't argue DNA. It's not my strong point and genetics bore me (yeah sure I might get those green eyes from my mother, but does it make a difference?).

It makes a difference because you're the only one representing your position.  Only you can accurately represent yourself.  Genetic inheritance is pretty elementary I think.  Sure I don't want to practice adding all day, but it was necessary so I could get into higher mathematics.

Even god isn't perfect (otherwise there wouldn't be people doubting him here...) It's like a web designer making a page with a lot of checks to stop bad information from being entered only for someone to exploit it with cross-browser scripting language.

I've never heard that before.  But please note that this opinion, being an opinion, is equally supportable as any others concerning the nature of God, as long as one excuses Him with "human fallibility".

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #328 on: 1 May 2010, 03:00:44 »
Arrogant huh?

Well, would you like me to point out something very illogical Kukac said? ::)
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Omega

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Re: Debate: Debunking Creationist Arguments Video
« Reply #329 on: 1 May 2010, 03:31:40 »
Well, it was an interesting video. It exibited mostly a list of the arguments though with minimal/no 'evidence'. Also, I don't consider Hitler to POSSIBLY be evidence! :thumbdown:

I also don't see how Thermodynamics make a difference. In fact, some of his statements I've not only NEVER seen used to support creationism, but don't support his point (evolutionism) either... ::)

Yes, some of his main arguments are reasonable, simply because god cannot be seen by just anyone, and therefore I can't take you up to a mountain and get him to talk to you face to face (you sure don't LOOK like Moses).

I really couldn't care what scientists think. They ARE scientists, therefore support what science can do, and have trouble with what they cannot understand (ask a scientist: "What caused the big bang?").

I could go on longer, but I'd rather not carry on that. I'm a creationist, you're not, suit yourself.

PS: Although I can't deny the video was remarkably professional and looked quite cool, abet, that doesn't add to the discussion. :)
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John.d.h

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Re: Debate: Debunking Creationist Arguments Video
« Reply #330 on: 1 May 2010, 04:18:21 »
Is it really necessary to have three threads going about this simultaneously?

// Merged \\ - Just because I can, oh, and because you make a good point. :D
« Last Edit: 2 May 2010, 01:31:26 by Omega »

Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #331 on: 1 May 2010, 20:53:51 »
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that doesn't add to the discussion.


It doesn`t add to the siguission because the arguments were to overwhelming that you cannot deny anything, andf because it doesn`t support your cause it is automatically invalid and wrong? Dont point me to that it was wrong because you clearly said almost exactly what i said, this is the problem with creationists, theyr ignorant.

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I really couldn't care what scientists think. They ARE scientists, therefore support what science can do, and have trouble with what they cannot understand (ask a scientist: "What caused the big bang?").

Then start care for evidence, they have trouble with what some brain-damaged people back 3000 years from now said, you have problem with denying what your told to belive. We don`t know what caused the big bang, but god doesn`t "proove" it.

Quote

Interesting point, but I don't argue DNA. It's not my strong point and genetics bore me (yeah sure I might get those green eyes from my mother, but does it make a difference?).

Apparently it doesn`t, but thats just because you don`t care for evolution, mainly because it strides with your god, that is not true. Science doesn`t proove how the universe began, the big bangt theory is actually a theory symphathizing (now i fail lol) god belief, because the big bang might have been god or what? i myself doesn`t belive in god because people bakc whne he was imagined did not have the knowledge we posses today.

« Last Edit: 2 May 2010, 12:08:28 by Gabriel, Gabbe »

-Archmage-

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #332 on: 2 May 2010, 06:08:44 »
We are not ignorant, we just can't believe the amount of faith Evolutionists must have, because there simply is nothing logical about the theory of Evolution, whereas a belief in a creator is heavily scientific!



Quote
Then start care for evidence, they have trouble with what some brain-damaged people back 3000 years from now said, you have problem with denying what your told to belive

Brain-damaged!?
Do you have any proof, also considering that Humans are getting slightly less and less complex over time.............which means.......... ::)
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #333 on: 2 May 2010, 08:20:26 »

Back up that people are getting less abnd less complex, our science today is much more advanced than 3000 years ago...and that my friend is a fact

-Archmage-

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #334 on: 2 May 2010, 13:12:22 »
WE didn't go boom , now we have guns and computers, we developed stuff over time.

But us as Humans are getting less complex over time.
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #335 on: 2 May 2010, 13:35:34 »
BACKUP?  to me it seems like were looking just the same, except for the junk food were eating wich makes us fatter? and there are of-course things to modify your body...

@kukac@

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #336 on: 2 May 2010, 15:26:46 »
Quote from: Arch
But us as Humans are getting less complex over time.

Devolution.

Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #337 on: 2 May 2010, 15:58:07 »
you mean backwards evoltuion? like species becoming less complex because there is no longer the need for the mutations?

Just something that apparently happened to the dinosaur Tyranosaurus Rex, it arms were shrinking because it had no longer the need for them.

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #338 on: 2 May 2010, 17:09:59 »
No Gabbe, it is not a smart process.

Also, since it is going on now........ :P
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #339 on: 2 May 2010, 17:28:32 »
No Gabbe, it is not a smart process.

Also, since it is going on now........ :P

Sorry, no clue what that was.

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #340 on: 2 May 2010, 17:35:34 »
Whether species have a need or not doesn't matter at all, Evolution randomly spits out mutations and the bad ones die out.

Since devolution's going on now, why can't it always have been going on?
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Zoythrus

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #341 on: 2 May 2010, 17:47:34 »
i wouldnt call it "Devolution" as much as a heavy reliance on what we have created. because things think for us, we have no need to use our God-given gifts of reasoning and intelligence.

and you guys mention mutations, when has a random mutation ever been helpful? last time i checked, sickle cell anemia was a bad thing

hey, i came across this idea - i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce. how did that happen? you cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex, as then they could have no children to discover the ability to have children! There! evolution debunked...
« Last Edit: 2 May 2010, 17:56:02 by Zoythrus »

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #342 on: 2 May 2010, 18:26:45 »
YAy, some more scientific firepower. :D



Quote
hey, i came across this idea - i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce. how did that happen? you cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex, as then they could have no children to discover the ability to have children! There! evolution debunked...

Yah, you have to have random chance create reproduction with a female and a male at around the same time, and the male has to be attracted to the female and every little detail has to be perfect or else reproduction couldn't happen.

The guy is going to have to evolve his genitals and the female must evolve hers, and they have to be compatible. Besides how's the guy going to evolve his genitals, a little sensitive lump evolving to genitals?

Well, you have to start with reproduction so that there is a carrier of the new "lump" mutation.

Anyway, you still have to get the female and the male before any of that........... :|
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Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #343 on: 2 May 2010, 18:37:51 »
Quote
i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce

You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.

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when has a random mutation ever been helpful

Some bacteria evolved defences against antibiotics/antibiotica, you don`t have to view it as helpfull for the human race, it was helpfull for the bacteria.

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There! evolution debunked...

Sorry, but that was not the case.
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last time i checked, sickle cell anemia was a bad thing

last time you checked...Do you ever check out things that doesn`t support your belief? NO.
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you cant say that it took millions of generations to "invent" sex

We don`t.

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Evolution randomly spits out mutations and the bad ones die out

You cross-over!  :confused: "nothing is random, but evolution is  as close as it gets"?
I say, "Nothing is random, so is evolution" There are several causes for mutation, the environment, the other beings, maybe even  damage taken from another specie? When mothers give birth after they had a drink, the baby has some chance of getting mutated. There are so many factors that i cannot list them all here.
70 percent of all mutations are bad, but still there are 30% who doesn`t and then im not including the mutations we don`t notice wich doesn`t cause any damage at all!
Now you might argue that then since 70% are bad species will have gotten extinct a long time ago, but, the mutations only occur at one of the individuals, then if it is bad, that creature will die and not reproduce, if it is good, it will have a advantage over the other members of the specie, and evolve. There are of course individuals without mutations, and they are the majority, so if a good mutation shows up, it will reproduce more quickly, with taking less damage than the other members.
A harmful mutation decreases the individuals rate of survival in the environment.
If the mutation is beneficial however, it will increase the fitness of the individual and/or promote traits that are desireable.

Here is from wikipedia:

Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of a cell's genome  and are caused by radiation, viruses, transposons  and mutagenic chemicals, as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication

Beneficial mutations

Although most mutations that change protein sequences are neutral or harmful, some mutations have a positive effect on an organism. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.

For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-Δ32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes. The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-Δ32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased. This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.

Another example, is Sickle cell disease which is a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene, because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait). Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.

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Since devolution's going on now, why can't it always have been going on

Why can`t Evolution and "Devolution" have been going on at the same time? It can have been always going on, but evolution has too.
Don`t tell me you seriously belive that "man used to be higher than a house and now theyr growing smaller and weaker and dumber"?

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Yah, you have to have random chance create reproduction with a female and a male at around the same time, and the male has to be attracted to the female and every little detail has to be perfect or else reproduction couldn't happen.

A simple answer would be: NO
A scientific answer would be long and boring:

The details of the female doesn`t have to be perfect, but occasionally you will meet someone with almost the exact deatails you need, then you will fell in the phenomenon "Love", your statement is not objective, without any evidence to support it. This is what evolution call: Species.
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The guy is going to have to evolve his genitals and the female must evolve hers, and they have to be compatible. Besides how's the guy going to evolve his genitals, a little sensitive lump evolving to genitals?

I understood very little of that, but i`ll try.
The genitials doesn`t have to be compatible,there is no such thing as exact compatible if thats what your pointing to. that is something called what? a specie?

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Anyway, you still have to get the female and the male before any of that........... No Opinion

Simply, no, you must have the chromozomes to reproduce sexually, asexually however you will only need one individual, a cell for example.

Nice that there is more creationists, hmm... there should be a poll: Creationism or Evoltuion...




Zoythrus

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #344 on: 2 May 2010, 18:48:20 »
Quote
i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce

You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction

i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.

Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #345 on: 2 May 2010, 19:07:17 »
Quote
i heard that creatures had to evolve the ability to reproduce

You probably hear that on a creationist forum/new/site/video?
Sorry, but that is not a reliable source. ever heard that cells duplicate? like, they divide and become two cells.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction

i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.

Try to respond to my other points too.

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i got it from here. if you think about it, evolution just doesnt add up! it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator. it just seems so simple, maybe you are just thinking too hard.

Cell division is the process by which a parent cell divides into two or more daughter cells. And then again the daughter cells are fully capable of reproducing theyr next generation, such goes on until we get larger organisms. Maybe you should think a little more about something before making up your mind?

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it takes more faith to believe in random chance than it does to believe in a Creator

If you ever read my post you would`ve find the Answer! But as i have said, creationists are ignorant...Maybe you origin from the planet of the apes?

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it just seems so simple

Yes, it seems simple, but it isn`t.

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maybe you are just thinking too hard.

Yes, im thinking, and i might think more advanced than you.

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i got it from here

Finally a creationist are able to use his brain a lile and find a source.

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if you think about it

Let me continue that: ,Noone of the creationism arguments seems pretty reliable, nor do they have references, nor do they have tests, nor do they use science, nor do they observe, nor do they check every little detail about htier own theory, nor are they going to give up their faith because someonje shows them facts.


Zoythrus

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #346 on: 2 May 2010, 19:13:47 »
well, you dont have to believe in God, Heaven, or Creationism, and i wont hate you if you stay an atheist. i just know that we'll all find out who's wrong and who's right when the world ends (and it will eventually).

Neither evolution nor Creationism can be fully proved, for none of us were actually there when it happened.

wyvern

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #347 on: 2 May 2010, 19:18:22 »
Exactly, it is very unlikely that we shall find the answer to this mystery in our life times, I'll drop out of the discussion until the topic changes. :P :P :P

Gabbe

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #348 on: 2 May 2010, 19:22:50 »
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i just know

How do you know?

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and it will eventually

Yeah, waiting for someone to pull the red button.

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Neither evolution nor Creationism can be fully proved, for none of us were actually there when it happened.

Actually, that statement is only correct for creationism, if you`ve read the thread before you would`ve seen my other post, stating just that.
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Exactly, it is very unlikely that we shall find the answer to this mystery in our life times

If "THE MYSTERY" is creationism or evolution, it isn`t a mysthery, evolution is prooves, every argument the creationisms have found we have reppeled quite easyilly. every question theyve got has not been answered.

If "The mystery" is the end of the world, don`t even think about it, its going to happen, but being a 2012 fantast doesn`t help really...


wyvern

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Re: Religous Debates
« Reply #349 on: 2 May 2010, 19:25:50 »
I don't believe in a 2012 catastrophe but the world will eventually end no matter what