Religous Debates

[Gabbe]

gah, i`ll have to wait for modman, im tired of saying the same things again and again because someone can`t read.

[-Archmage-]

DNA is on your side huh?

[John.d.h]

Will everybody chill for a bit, please?  As my mom always used to say, "fight nice, children!"  This thread has been on a steady slope from intellectual debate to petty bickering and I'm getting tired of it.  If anybody here actually wants to discuss the validity of creationism and evolution, then YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.  Stop acting like children and have a debate, not a schoolyard brawl.

[wyvern]

I know , thats why I'm trying not to get to involved

[@kukac@]

Oh my, I had to moderate most of the 15th page...

"In an argument, you have opponents and not enemies. You have to defeat them, not to annihilate them!"

Old Hungarian Wisdom

[I might be sick, I had to correct my own grammatical error too - @kukac@]

[Omega]

Very well said John and Kukac! I've been stressing that for a little while.

I fell behind in reading this, so I'm turning to reproduction. How would an animal/human/etc know how to reproduce? If they didn't, the species would die off very fast, yet it seems odd to be born with such knowledge. Unless they were told by someone... Like the big guy?

[You are looking for the instinct? - @kukac@]

[@kukac@]

Wait a little Omega, I just thought up a way, how to explain the evolution to Arch.

Khmm. So. Let's take a dog. Just a little puppy. I will shoot it's leg, but won't kill it. I give him little food in each bowl, far away from each other, so it has to walk a long way to get enough food. Once his leg heals, I will shoot the other one. And the same goes over and over again. Then the DNA get's an answer: if his leg is more "armoured", and heals faster, it can get food easier! So the DNA rewrites itself: thicker skin, and faster regeneration rate.

I just found a nice female dog for mine. The two dogs create a new one (it was a bit stupid explanation, but hey ), who will have the combination of the two predecessor. Let's say, it will have thicker skin.

This is evolution.

Second round.

Let's take 2 human families. One of them will go to gym every day, and build every members to fistfight. The other one will go to universities, and will be insanely magnificent. And it will go over generations. One of them will have "muscular body" written in their DNA, while the other will have "extra large brain".

They are closed families, so they won't meet with any other human type (impossible, I know). Let's start with 10 members for each family. 500 years later, like the different types of dogs, okay?

[wyvern]

Good example Kukac though somewhat violent

[-Archmage-]

Khmm. So. Let's take a dog. Just a little puppy. I will shoot it's leg, but won't kill it. I give him little food in each bowl, far away from each other, so it has to walk a long way to get enough food. Once his leg heals, I will shoot the other one. And the same goes over and over again. Then the DNA get's an answer: if his leg is more "armoured", and heals faster, it can get food easier! So the DNA rewrites itself: thicker skin, and faster regeneration rate.

That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.......
So are you implying ID or something?

et's take 2 human families. One of them will go to gym every day, and build every members to fistfight. The other one will go to universities, and will be insanely magnificent. And it will go over generations. One of them will have "muscular body" written in their DNA, while the other will have "extra large brain".

Sorry but you know, that just simply is not true.
When I lift weights, my DNA is not being written to have stronger muscles.
Why? Because if I don't lift weights, then I'll revert to my natural physical strength in a week or so.

BTW, it's been proven that the size of a brain does not determine the intelligence of a person.

My Dad's going die laughing at your post, no offense, but it's completely ridiculous.


Also, according to the theory of evolution itself(which of course leaves out the part about how unpredictable the mutations are, and how random), radiation, viruses, etc..., cause mutations, without intelligence, which are basically unpredictable, and could be considered random. So the Evolutionists are saying that the body pretty much experiences random mutations, and then if those mutations cause the body to die, then boom natural selection, the body is dead and the mutation isn't carried on. Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations, with absolutely no intelligence behind them randomly changing parts of extremely complex things. EVOLUTION IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAIL!


You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?

[modman]

the whole reason that i dislike evolution is because i find fault in the concept of life being entirely by chance. if life is by chance, what is there to live for? maybe life is all about money, women, and power; but where will that get us? we arent taking any of that stuff with us, so why strive to live for it?

Hopefully you can understand why this is not a logical reason to disbelieve evolution.  There are many facts that we do not like.  Take murder for example: in the year 2000, 52000 people died by intentional homicide.  Does this fact cease to exist because I don't like it?  Of course not.  Why should evolution be any different?  Just because you don't like what you may think evolution causes, it doesn't mean evolution is false.  And even if evolution caused one out of five people to wake up on a night with a full moon and commit suicide, this would not make evolution false, nor any other theory.  A theory stands completely on its ability to explain and thus predict events in reality.  Here's one prediction of evolution: no one will ever ever ever discover a Precambrian chicken.  It's as simple as that.  Creationists, you expect chickens to be about the earth in just about the same numbers as there ever were.

And who deleted my topic?  Whoever did that, please step forward, because I don't see a good reason why you should have done so.  As I said before, this topic is way to crammed with stuff to sift through it.

[-Archmage-]

Kukac deleted your topic, he openly said that.

[modman]

How would an animal/human/etc know how to reproduce?

I'm not really sure how to answer this, but God certainly didn't prevent any of the many tribes (which Israel annihilated or attacked in the OT) from reproducing.  It may have to do with observation, and maybe just with an inclination of two mating partners to come into contact with each other.  After that, they probably don't know what they're doing, and hormones take care of the rest.

Kukac deleted your topic, he openly said that.

Hmm...where?

That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.

Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations, with absolutely no intelligence behind them randomly changing parts of extremely complex things. EVOLUTION IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAIL!

Um, no.  But please refrain from typing in all caps, because I believe it was you that correctly pointed out it does not further your point or make you look smarter.  In fact, I generally skip over things in all caps (like legal notices in installers and long rants).

You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html

Notice how I will explain this.  I will not simply link to the website, nor will I simply C&P from it.  I will explain what I figured out from it.

People's misunderstanding of flight stems from the assumption that animals without flight always behaved as if they did.  Obviously this is false, because flightless birds like peacocks do not even go in trees at all.  They do not need to fly.

The wing probably came from structures like flying squirrels have: flaps of skin which allow them to glide.  Also, when animals leap in the air from the ground, these flaps can help them stay in the air for a longer time, increasing their time for whatever activity jumping was necessary.

Now observe similarities between bats and flying squirrels.  Flying squirrels can only glide, but bats flap.

Also, keep in mind that birds can start flying from the ground up, so their inability to fly once would probably not be deadly.

[Zoythrus]

what about those animals that were in the process of changing from one to another? if you had a lizard that was turning into a bird, it would have to first get wings which would start out as wing-buds. How would half-wings help a lizard? also, it would lose its front legs, which would make it hard to run (thus making it easier for predators to get to it). explain that...

[modman]

Obviously a lizard would have to be able to run fast before being able to fly, and there are plenty who can run on two legs.  Half wings would be helpful because they would help the lizard glide.

Zoythrus, you're on the right track.  Now let me give you a boost: do all mutations have to be either beneficial or harmful?  Of course not.  Think eye color.  Now if the mutation giving our reptile wing buds neither helped nor hindered the reptile, it would continue to progress.

And it would not turn into a bird right away.  Birds have feathers.  But some dinosaurs could fly (and lacked feathers)...

[wyvern]

Genetic mutation is not always good immediately but can be good later, for example this one moth breed in England was white with spots for camouflage, but some were black colored, the black one always got eaten because they couldn't hide. Then came the factories and the smog smoke darkened tree bark, walls etc... Now the black moths had an advantage because they could hide while the original, normal white moths got killed

[Gabbe]

I think modmans adivce about having onje subject to debate about would be propriate, it will take forever to debate everry single thing.

It seems arch, like you want to disguiss the "random chance" within evolution, i will be happy counter-argue that, as i know it for a fact not to be true.

If you want to disguiss the mat5h about evolution, and the math of evolution maybe 1:99999999999999999999999 to you, the chance for a god like being which has never shown up will be 1: infinity (now im not including the bibles "evidence")

[-Archmage-]

Modman, you simply cannot ignore that there is not intelligence behind Evolution.

Take the Glest source code(which of course is no where near the complexity of a Human), and randomly alter it, any that crash are to be discarded, so you're going to have to assume that a whole structure will randomly form that will enable the game to run as well as add a new feature. Now considering the chances of that, it's pretty much impossible! Now what do you tihnk the chances are of *** up a feature, maybe just changing 1 letter in the core of the game, and destroying it.

Maybe you think well, a source code has structure and links and stuff, well guess what, the Human body has all that and more! It's not 1 or 2 genes that make up an eye, it's hundreds! Eyes are extremely complex, and you think that not only could that eye somehow be randomly built, you think that somehow you would get a random way for the brain to interpret what the eye sees. The Human body was so obviously designed!

And you think our theory is silly.........

After that, they probably don't know what they're doing, and hormones take care of the rest.

Guess who put those hormones there.........

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations, with absolutely no intelligence behind them randomly changing parts of extremely complex things. EVOLUTION IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAIL!

Um, no.  But please refrain from typing in all caps, because I believe it was you that correctly pointed out it does not further your point or make you look smarter.  In fact, I generally skip over things in all caps (like legal notices in installers and long rants).

There are no excuses for not replying to that! That post has crushed your theory, you can't excuse your way out of that!

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 18:12:21
You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html

Notice how I will explain this.  I will not simply link to the website, nor will I simply C&P from it.  I will explain what I figured out from it.

People's misunderstanding of flight stems from the assumption that animals without flight always behaved as if they did.  Obviously this is false, because flightless birds like peacocks do not even go in trees at all.  They do not need to fly.

The wing probably came from structures like flying squirrels have: flaps of skin which allow them to glide.  Also, when animals leap in the air from the ground, these flaps can help them stay in the air for a longer time, increasing their time for whatever activity jumping was necessary.

Now observe similarities between bats and flying squirrels.  Flying squirrels can only glide, but bats flap.

Also, keep in mind that birds can start flying from the ground up, so their inability to fly once would probably not be deadly.

Of course you forgot to mention how they randomly developed.....


Gabbe, Evolution is random, go ahead and try to tell me there is intelligence behind evolution!


The math behind evolution is quite on my side, sorry to disappoint you Gabbe.


There is no reliance upon chance behind our theory of a creator, everything in the universe is intelligently designed, and that's MAJOR proof for a creator!


FUN FACT: Didja know that only about 40% of Americans believe in Evolution?

[wyvern]

Cursings illegal Arch , and I do believe that evolution has more logical support than creationism

[Gabbe]

In most of Europe, americans are considered dumb....

About that, most americans don`t get proper education either.

RANDOM?

just what in the ******* hell is so hard about read the wikipedia about mutations?
I have seriously some trouble seeing why the hell my post is ignored? oh, wait, ignorance, the core of creationism.
It isn`t worth even read the rest of your post when you mention: random

Creation is random aswell, the creator randomly created the animals and humans and that?
Oh wait, silly me, creation is a faith and requires you to "randomly" change your theory to be able to counter the scientific one.
Evolution changes as evidence is brought up. Creation changes after the need to be ignorant.

[wyvern]

Are you insulting me Gabbe, I'm an American, well actually a Czech American, and I am a very good student, and certainly not dumb .

[-Archmage-]

Cursings illegal Arch Grin, and I do believe that evolution has more logical support than creationism Tongue Tongue

I don't care what you think.
You believe in luck which really doesn't exist, because this is a cause and effect universe.

In most of Europe, americans are considered dumb....

Well, I hope you realize that you would be toast right now if it wasn't for the bravery and determination of Americans.

I also find it funny how we are a bit more advanced with technology than Europe, and why our military is totally un-matched world-wide. [Because USA did mostly nothing in the second world war? While everyone else fought, they just saved up everything. In the end, whole Europe was laid in ashes, and we had to rebuild it - and that makes you correct in the creationism -@kukac@]

Creation is random aswell, the creator randomly created the animals and humans and that?
Oh wait, silly me, creation is a faith and requires you to "randomly" change your theory to be able to counter the scientific one.
Evolution changes as evidence is brought up. Creation changes after the need to be ignorant.

Ok, now that is the most stupid and ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

You talk about how evolution isn't random, and then you say that "Creation is random as well". Ouch stop shooting yourself in the foot!

Creationism is not random, we believe in an intelligent being of some sort that created the universe and all life. There simply is nothing random about that!

just what in the ******* hell is so hard about read the wikipedia about mutations?
I have seriously some trouble seeing why the hell my post is ignored? oh, wait, ignorance, the core of creationism.
It isn`t worth even read the rest of your post when you mention: random

So radiation has some sort of intelligence?

Radiation from cell phones is damaging to the Human body. Why? Because it scrambles the DNA in cells and screws them up. My proof: All the people with tumors right where they hold their cell phone.

Viruses. You really think viruses help at all, you really think that they can enhance DNA, I thought viruses made people sick, and sometimes killed them.

About Transposons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon#Transposons_causing_diseases

Sure sounds "helpful"!

In biology, a mutagen (Latin, literally origin of change) is a physical or chemical agent that changes the genetic material, usually DNA, of an organism  and thus increases the frequency of mutations  above the natural background level. As many mutations cause cancer, mutagens are typically also carcinogens.

This also sounds "helpful".

...as well as errors that occur during meiosis or DNA replication

Cool, some errors, also very "helpful".

You know, with all this harmful stuff, I really don't see how you expect these harmful things to make any helpful, logical, and intelligent modifications to any DNA.

Are you insulting me Gabbe, I'm an American, well actually a Czech American, and I am a very good student, and certainly not dumb . Angry Angry

The American educational system is all fucked up, being a good student in an American school means nothing.

[wyvern]

Where did that creator being come from then, and thank you for supporting the Americans Arch

[Gabbe]

Quote
In most of Europe, americans are considered dumb....

Well, I hope you realize that you would be toast right now if it wasn't for the bravery and determination of Americans.

I also find it funny how we are a bit more advanced with technology than Europe, and why our military is totally un-matched world-wide. No Opinion

I din`t sy i think so, America actually got top students aswell, but agree with me that the poor population is very dumb right?

Your totally owned by China, they are just under you military, and military doesn`t matter as long as both china and india has the nukes to destory the world 1000 times...And china owns you economically, however, im glad we have the americans to destroy the terrorists, and kill of any threat to the civilized western world.

Quote
Are you insulting me Gabbe, I'm an American, well actually a Czech American, and I am a very good student, and certainly not dumb . Angry Angry

The American educational system is all fucked up, being a good student in an American school means nothing.

That is somehow true, our system is somewhat to harsh on the students.

Creationism is not random, we believe in an intelligent being of some sort that created the universe and all life. There simply is nothing random about that!

Our ecosystem could been screwed.

How was the creator created?

[wyvern]

The educational system sucks here, I know , thats why I homeschool, so that I can learn from Czech textbooks which outmatch most of what we have in America. Our military is pretty strong though, China's not as high tech. Were falling apart though, the worlds falling into another war.

[Gabbe]