Religous Debates

[-Archmage-]

I just looked up Evolution, and it basically says you have gene mutations, and the animals that survive pass on their mutations.

That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!

And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.

I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.

[John.d.h]

I don't see how any of that supports apes turning into Humans................

How doesn't it!?  To summarize the current idea on how humans evolved (my understanding of it anyway), is this: when a group of apes ended up on the grassland (for whatever reason, probably climate change) natural selection favored those that could walk better and stand more upright.  While it would seem like having a pair of feet that could act as hands would be an advantage, humanoid feet are much better for walking.  If I wanted to have a cross-country foot race against a troop of chimpanzees, I would most certainly win.  Also, standing upright is a huge advantage for wide open areas like a grassland, because you can see farther.  On top of that, we can carry things because we're not using our hands for travel like a knuckle-walking ape.  You can find prey and avoid predators because you can see them coming before a chimp ever could.  As we began to be able to carry things, the usefulness of tools increased, so smarter ape-folk were favored, leading to increased brain size.  You know what you get when you take an ape and give it a big brain, an upright posture, and human-like feet?  A human.

If you think there aren't intermediate steps between apes and people, I'm sorry but you're horribly uneducated about paleoanthropology.  Try looking up the following terms and see if you can discern a pattern:

• Ardipithecus
• Australopithecus
• Homo habilis
• Homo erectus
• Cro-magnon man

[There is some problem with the list -.- - @kukac@]

To say the appearance of humans was sudden is simply denial of the entire hominid fossil record.

That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!

Most mutations do die.  It's not like the entire species experiences a mutation all at the same time.  Remember my example with dwarfism a while ago?  It's not like the entire human population shrunk, but rather just one individual at a time.  However, if people with achondroplasia had an advantage that helped them survive better than others, pretty soon we'd have an entire species under five feet tall.

And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.

lol Who says you do?

[@kukac@]

I just looked up Evolution, and it basically says you have gene mutations, and the animals that survive pass on their mutations.

Yep, you got it so far

That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!

Does saber tooth tiger, mammoth, dinosaurs, and their friends tell you something? Dodo's couldn't mutate a bulletproof skin, so they traveled far away

And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.

Large brain

I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.

Please, feel free, that's why this topic is for

[-Archmage-]

Well then, I'm kinda curious where all the dead bodies and skeletons are that can prove this, there should be many more skeletons of mutated animals that did not survive, than the number of Humans that exist today.

Quote
That's just completely ridiculous, you can't just have nearly random mutations and expect any improvements, if Evolution were true, then all life forms should pretty much be extinct, but no, no, no, no, and no, live forms are not dying off!

Does saber tooth tiger, mammoth, dinosaurs, and their friends tell you something? Dodo's couldn't mutate a bulletproof skin, so they traveled far away Smile

So, your assuming that Evolution killed them off? When it might have been something else.....

Quote
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.

Large brain Smile

THe size of my brain has nothing to do with choice, why is it that I can control my brain, and use it, you think the source of life is the brain right? Well, why can I control it then, why is it more like a tool I use to do things in the physical world?

The real source of who someone is, doesn't seem to come from the brain, I can have extremely high levels of the chemicals that makes my body react to anger, but I can stay calm, why?
Because I am in control, not a bunch of chemicals. Oh BTW, I can use those chemicals to my advantage to make me more powerful in a fight, but why can I control that stuff? According to you guys, shouldn't it control me?

How doesn't it!?  To summarize the current idea on how humans evolved (my understanding of it anyway), is this: when a group of apes ended up on the grassland (for whatever reason, probably climate change) natural selection favored those that could walk better and stand more upright.  While it would seem like having a pair of feet that could act as hands would be an advantage, humanoid feet are much better for walking.  If I wanted to have a cross-country foot race against a troop of chimpanzees, I would most certainly win.  Also, standing upright is a huge advantage for wide open areas like a grassland, because you can see farther.  On top of that, we can carry things because we're not using our hands for travel like a knuckle-walking ape.  You can find prey and avoid predators because you can see them coming before a chimp ever could.  As we began to be able to carry things, the usefulness of tools increased, so smarter ape-folk were favored, leading to increased brain size.  You know what you get when you take an ape and give it a big brain, an upright posture, and human-like feet?  A human.

Correction, a Human body.
Read below.

Most mutations do die.  It's not like the entire species experiences a mutation all at the same time.  Remember my example with dwarfism a while ago?  It's not like the entire human population shrunk, but rather just one individual at a time.  However, if people with achondroplasia had an advantage that helped them survive better than others, pretty soon we'd have an entire species under five feet tall.

Do you actually believe that we would have time in the universe to get from 1 cell to a Human body?
I've heard that the math has been done, I don't remember the amount of years, but I can tell you, it's "unbe-***-lievably" longer than Evolutionist say the Earth has been around.
I've done some thinking and I've figured the chance of Evolution getting from one cell to a Human is a ton closer to impossible, than 0.0000000000000000000000010 is to 0.0000000000000000000000011, not quite impossible, but so un-likely you could easily consider it impossible.

Quote
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
lol Who says you do? Laughing

(click to show/hide)

I, do.

Quote
I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.

Please, feel free, that's why this topic is for Tongue

Funny you said that, because you're going to have an impossible time defending yourself from my deadly questions. Muhuhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaheheheheheheheh...he.....heh...............

[@kukac@]

Well then, I'm kinda curious where all the dead bodies and skeletons are that can prove this, there should be many more skeletons of mutated animals that did not survive, than the number of Humans that exist today.

Where is god?

(click to show/hide)

Too stupid question to a religious man

Do you know, what is oil made from? Several thousand year old dead organisms (mostly weeds).

So, your assuming that Evolution killed them off? When it might have been something else.....

It wasn't evolution that killed them off. The reason they died, was because they did NOT evolve. Weather, climate, other "fitter" creatures killed them off (or a big meteorite, they didn't evolve to defend themselves against that xD )

why is it that I can control my brain, and use it

You are the brain. You are using your body as a tool.

Because I am in control

You said the quite reason of the evolution. You are the Controlling Unit (CU)

Do you actually believe that we would have time in the universe to get from 1 cell to a Human body?

You don't get it: firstly, the differences between each humans are more than just 10k cells. And mutations are not 1 cell/generation.

I've heard that the math has been done

Maths is science, not religion

I've done some thinking and I've figured the chance of Evolution getting from one cell to a Human is a ton closer to impossible, than 0.0000000000000000000000010 is to 0.0000000000000000000000011, not quite impossible, but so un-likely you could easily consider it impossible

Thinking is like "the world is flat", so watch out! Plus what has bigger chance, than 0%, that can happen.

Off: You have threw a coin up 10 times, and each time, it was head. Which side do you bet next time?

[John.d.h]

I think you need to brush up on your neurology.

Well then, I'm kinda curious where all the dead bodies and skeletons are that can prove this, there should be many more skeletons of mutated animals that did not survive, than the number of Humans that exist today.

Most mutations are too minor to notice, especially in a fossil record.  Those albino foxes, for example.  If you look at an albino fox and a regular fox after a thousand years, you can't tell the difference.  On top of that, skeletons don't really last all that long.  This is why there are so few fossils in the world when compared to the number of dead organisms.

So, your assuming that Evolution killed them off? When it might have been something else.....

Evolution doesn't kill anything.  These are all examples of animals who were unfit to survive in their situations, and thus they died off.  Dinosaurs were unfit to survive in their conditions (from an asteroid strike or whatever), and mammoths were too tasty to survive.  Dodo birds lived on an island where there were no natural predators, so they never had to adapt any defenses.  When we showed up, they were remarkably easy to hunt because they couldn't hide, fly, or run away very well, so they all died.  Are you sensing a pattern yet?  Things that aren't fit to survive, don't.

Correction, a Human body.
Read below.

Err... and your point is?

Do you actually believe that we would have time in the universe to get from 1 cell to a Human body?
I've heard that the math has been done, I don't remember the amount of years, but I can tell you, it's "unbe-***-lievably" longer than Evolutionist say the Earth has been around.
I've done some thinking and I've figured the chance of Evolution getting from one cell to a Human is a ton closer to impossible, than 0.0000000000000000000000010 is to 0.0000000000000000000000011, not quite impossible, but so un-likely you could easily consider it impossible.

I never said that, nor do I intend on addressing the topic of abiogenesis.  I merely explained how natural selection works.  You're trying to put words in my mouth.

Quote
And nobody has given a good solid simple answer for why I have the power of choice.
lol Who says you do? Laughing

(click to show/hide)

I, do.

Of course you would say that.  That's exactly what the electrochemical reactions in your brain told you to say.

Quote
I have many more very difficult questions, that you should be able to answer, at least if meat bodies are all that's here.

lol Holding back your secret weapons, eh?

[Gabbe]

you guys are too quick to answer...i don`t even get the chance to post -.- nvm, you answered for me...

[-Archmage-]

John, I just deleted half a response, because I realized, I have other stuff to do, and I'm worried about that other stuff, I just need to do that, but this debate is keeping me on the boards, and I can't keep up with you because I'm worried about what will happen if I don't keep up with my life, sorry, I hope you understand, I have to get out of this debate, although I may pitch stuff in every once in a while. But I can't keep this up forever, it consumes way too much of my time, someone else (Omega, maybe you?) will have to take over.

Sorry guys.

[Gabbe]

debating is fun...

Im going to make this topic change with ONE sentence, hopefully 

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim. (im not being racist, and i have brown skin, natural myself)

[John.d.h]

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim. (im not being racist, and i have brown skin, natural myself)

How about Timothy McVeigh?

[-Archmage-]

Well, when the topic name says otherwise terrorism is off-topic.

[Gabbe]

i was trying to have a debate about musil terrorist, my intro wasn`t so good afterall :'(

[John.d.h]

Well, when the topic name says otherwise terrorism is off-topic.

If the terrorism is motivated by religion, it's perfectly on topic.  I think it's a little silly to have a debate about that, though.  I'm sure pretty much all of us would say it's bad to blow up buildings full of civilians because your preacher told you to.

[Gabbe]

muslims live in our country, and some maybe and some are terrorists, actually, we are keeping a dangerous iraq man here in norway coz if we send him out, he will get sent to iraq or killed instantly...personally i say we send him out or kill him as he has done far worse to other peoples.

Actually, i see terrorism as a personal threat to me, as just because i live in Europe, some unknown man from another country wants to kill me...

prob because he thinks im christian? whatcha think?

[-Archmage-]

Pretty much everybody likes sex, and according to the Muslims, if you do the will of Allah, you get "68 black eyed virgins" in the afterlife. Or was it 69....

Anyway, nothing could convince me to blow up a building full of civilians, I don't know why the Muslims have such low integrity......
I mean they think they are doing good, but all they're doing to cutting peoples heads off, and waging war against the Jews.

[John.d.h]

Y'know, you could try not to lump an entire religion of like a billion people together with the few psychotic nutjobs that give them a bad name.

[-Archmage-]

Y'know, you could try not to lump an entire religion of like a billion people together with the few psychotic nutjobs that give them a bad name.

Yah, maybe most of them are fine, but their belief is terrible.

[modman]

I don't see how any of that supports apes turning into Humans.

First, humans are apes.  Your statement is equivalent of saying you want to turn cars into Fords.  There are no traits apes have that humans do not have.

Also, why did Humans appear suddenly, why didn't we come in gradually?

This might be related to the chance that you're not really sure what exactly a human is.

Finally, you're a moderator.  Set an example by not making fun of people for having poor English or if their arguments don't make sense or if you can't quite connect the dots.  Just because you can't understand evolution doesn't mean no one can (especially after actual education in the subject).

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim.

Jihad Jane would be another counterexample to this.

It is a good point to make, though, that when Muslims blow themselves (and others) up or do other war-mongering, we call it "Islam".  If I, or a scientist, or an (American, to be clear) politician committed a suicide bombing (or blew up my apartment, whatever) we would be classified as "mentally unstable".  Really, I don't see a difference.

Christianity used to be the same, but then religious moderation became the norm along with the Renaissance and that kind of stuff became less common.  Within Islam, there seems to be either a very small or a very quiet group of religious moderates.

Pretty much everybody likes sex, and according to the Muslims, if you do the will of Allah, you get "68 black eyed virgins" in the afterlife. Or was it 69....

It's 72.  And a mistranslation also.  Then again, so is Hell...

With Islam, it's a seriously distorted risk-reward system.  If you thought the Old Testament was bad, you ain't seen nothin 'till you read some of the Qu'ran.

http://www.truthdig.com/images/diguploads/verses.html

Ripping on Islam doesn't make Christianity holy in any way at all.  In America, we have a serious infiltration of religion into politics.  About 50% of voters (probably most Republicans) would not vote for a well-qualified atheist.

And Bush demonstrated his serious tolerance issues by saying "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God."  In that sentence, replace atheist with any other group and see if you like it (try "Muslims").  Hopefully no one agrees with Mr. Bush here.

[-Archmage-]

I'm done here, Modman, I would debate with you more if I could, but I've got other stuff I really should be doing...

And, I feel kind of guilty facing you...
I'm pretty weak when it comes to facing people I look up too...

I have to say Bush was kinda a strange guy, he did a bunch of stuff right and a bunch of stuff wrong.....

PS: I had absolutely no intention of making fun of Gabbe(sorry if you took offense), I simply thought what he was saying was ridiculous, and I understood what he meant.

[@kukac@]

Religion does not make people terrorists, don't forget, that there were Christian terrorists too!

[Gabbe]

there are christian terrorists today 

Religion does have that effects that it makes people do stupid things, like belive getting to paradise if you kill those and those, why should we have possible terrorists live in the rich and wealthy europe and us, i am not saying that all muslims are terrorists, but if you are a muslim, you automatically become a possible terrorist, and that is actually true. that book that they pray to, it really do have some things that really don`t fit in with the western culture and values...

[John.d.h]

People will use any excuse they can to justify their actions.  The crusades, for example, were more about politics and commerce than they were about religion, but it would have been difficult to unite people from different countries and backgrounds over stuff like that.  It was much easier to unite them based on religion because they were all Catholics.  In the absence of religion, people can be motivated to do evil for lots of reasons, like in Stalin's Russia where loyalty to the state was a justification for killing millions of people... or... you know, that other dictator during World War 2 who killed millions of people.

[Gabbe]

But he terrorists from iraq can`t do those suicide missions purely based on political gain, as they suicide and won`t be able to claim the gain...if not for their god...

[@kukac@]

Don't forget, that most of the Arabic states were under catholic rule! Since the history is written by catholics, they don't write shameful things, as ruling over the Arabian nations over years. Iraq was UK's puppet state, SU had wars with Afghanistan, Israel constantly attacks her neighborhood, and so on. Israel attacks everyone, and USA even supports them. No wonder they got several mislead planes. Such a things don't happen without reasons. The terrorists are not guys that were f***in' bored in the morning, and decided to kill a lot of people to kill some time.

It's not based on religion. If your homeland were oppressed constantly, and if you are a "national" (that people of USA will never understand, what it means, to be part of a nation. Like a big family, a team with millions, common ancestors with history, common culture...), you might sacrifice your life for your nation.

[Gabbe]

nice point, and yeah, the states supports the wrong people all the time, but what i ment that this serious angry people who suicide themsleves, do it for their religion, you think saddam cares for iraq?