Dwarves Aglarond 0.1.2 released !

[ultifd]

I see, I never knew that that "balloon" was really for that/could do that... cool!    Will try. Thanks for the explanation.  How can it... though?  Cool. I'll try it out.

Currently it can only SEE FAR AWAY (no attacks). But do try it!

You mean it adds to my "seeing"? Well, that just didn't make much sense 
Like less fog of war for me?   
Thanks. 

Yes, less shroud of darkness and less fog of war for you.

I see.   
I can produce more than one, right? 

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 17:55:00
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Hum... do you mean like a single blade axe, like a wood-cutting one? And if so... why?  No Opinion

Well, for one, one-sided axes aren't only used for woodcutting, they were used in combat too...
A battle axe seriously doesn't fit the Warrior, I mean, he's like a pawn compared to everyone else in the faction. Tongue
I see your point. Still, here's a preview on 0.4: the warrior will have a skill added, pending on an upgrade: it will be able to throw axes! I plan on using the spiral kind of trajectory. I'm not sure the projectivle will actually rotate with this type of trajectory (or whether it will just move along the spiral on a fixed position). If this works, i.e. if the axe rotates along the spiral (like projectiles rotate on a parabolic trajectory), thismeans the axe may be in one of several different positions when it reaches the target; having two blades increases the chances it will look as one of the blades is actually hiting the target when it arrives. Wink
Then again, if the projectile doesn't rotate (I haven't tested this yet), it won't matter anyway and in that case, yes, we can give it a regular axe instead of the one it has now. Still, when it gets the "throw axe" skill it will be:
1. More powerful (hence have somewhat more carisma to hold a battleaxe);
2. Have a slightly smaller axe, more apropriate to both use in a throw as well as in a mellee attack, which might give it overall a less powerful look.

That won't work, the spiral type projectile is the closest type that would work, but.............the spiral type projectile won't spiral the way you want, and you can't have animation in projectile models......

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Give the battle axe to the Dragon Slayer, because he would obviously need it a lot more. No Opinion

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Dragon Slayer: Battle Axe
I actually think the axe it has now fits very well. Can you give us some example / concept art of the axe you were thinking of?

The axe he's using now is just kind of stupid(no offense Wciow), there is no way your could kill a dragon with that puny little thing(so he's not much of a dragon slayer Tongue). To me, it looks like some kind of ritual axe to sacrifice goats.

I was thinking I could replace it with something like:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/104809081/Kite_Rea_Battle_Axe_Black_.jpg
That looks daunting! Which means I like it!  Cool
Will you model it?

If you want...

(BTW did you get the halberd from Mark's weapons' cache? There's a very similar one in there, only smaller.)

Nope, I just made it from the spear.

[jda]

That won't work, the spiral type projectile is the closest type that would work, but.............the spiral type projectile won't spiral the way you want, and you can't have animation in projectile models......

Have you tried it yourself?
I know the projectiles' g3d's can't be animated.
However, I have a parabolic trajectory on the skyship which does make that projectile model rotate from perfectly horizontal to perfectly vertical (which in that case is exactly what I want). Thus I wondered if the spiral trajectory wouldn't do the same - you usually only see the particles in that kind of attack, not an actual projectile...

Dragon Slayer: Battle Axe
I actually think the axe it has now fits very well. Can you give us some example / concept art of the axe you were thinking of?

The axe he's using now is just kind of stupid(no offense Wciow), there is no way your could kill a dragon with that puny little thing(so he's not much of a dragon slayer Tongue). To me, it looks like some kind of ritual axe to sacrifice goats.

I was thinking I could replace it with something like:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/104809081/Kite_Rea_Battle_Axe_Black_.jpg

That looks daunting! Which means I like it!  Cool
Will you model it?

If you want...

[/quote]Well, it's your idea and I still think what he has now is good enough - and, I hadn't said this before, it's BIGGER than the axe of the warrior. It's not double bladed but it's certainly bigger.
So yeah, the concept art you posted does look better and if you model it, we'll use it instead of the current one. If not, I'm not really motivated enough... 

(BTW did you get the halberd from Mark's weapons' cache? There's a very similar one in there, only smaller.)

Nope, I just made it from the spear.

Good job! 

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 21:03:21
That won't work, the spiral type projectile is the closest type that would work, but.............the spiral type projectile won't spiral the way you want, and you can't have animation in projectile models...... Sad
Have you tried it yourself?
I know the projectiles' g3d's can't be animated.
However, I have a parabolic trajectory on the skyship which does make that projectile model rotate from perfectly horizontal to perfectly vertical (which in that case is exactly what I want). Thus I wondered if the spiral trajectory wouldn't do the same - you usually only see the particles in that kind of attack, not an actual projectile...

I've worked with particles a lot. Go ahead and test it, or you can trust me.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Dragon Slayer: Battle Axe
I actually think the axe it has now fits very well. Can you give us some example / concept art of the axe you were thinking of?

The axe he's using now is just kind of stupid(no offense Wciow), there is no way your could kill a dragon with that puny little thing(so he's not much of a dragon slayer Tongue). To me, it looks like some kind of ritual axe to sacrifice goats.

I was thinking I could replace it with something like:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/104809081/Kite_Rea_Battle_Axe_Black_.jpg
That looks daunting! Which means I like it!  Cool
Will you model it?

If you want...

Well, it's your idea and I still think what he has now is good enough - and, I hadn't said this before, it's BIGGER than the axe of the warrior. Tongue It's not double bladed but it's certainly bigger. Wink
So yeah, the concept art you posted does look better and if you model it, we'll use it instead of the current one. If not, I'm not really motivated enough...  Cheesy[/quote]

I can model it, but it'll be hard because I don't know how to use mirror, could you teach me?
Oh, and you'll have to texture it...
Anyway the pic I gave you could be used for the texture.....so it should be pretty easy.

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(BTW did you get the halberd from Mark's weapons' cache? There's a very similar one in there, only smaller.)

Nope, I just made it from the spear. Smile
Good job!  Cool Thumb Up

 

[jda]

I see, I never knew that that "balloon" was really for that/could do that... cool!     Will try. Thanks for the explanation.   How can it... though?   Cool. I'll try it out.

Currently it can only SEE FAR AWAY (no attacks). But do try it!

You mean it adds to my "seeing"? Well, that just didn't make much sense  
Like less fog of war for me?    
Thanks.  

Yes, less shroud of darkness and less fog of war for you.

I see.    
I can produce more than one, right?  

Sure, as many as you want, like any other unit.

Quote from: -Archmage- on Today at 21:03:21
That won't work, the spiral type projectile is the closest type that would work, but.............the spiral type projectile won't spiral the way you want, and you can't have animation in projectile models...... Sad
Have you tried it yourself?
I know the projectiles' g3d's can't be animated.
However, I have a parabolic trajectory on the skyship which does make that projectile model rotate from perfectly horizontal to perfectly vertical (which in that case is exactly what I want). Thus I wondered if the spiral trajectory wouldn't do the same - you usually only see the particles in that kind of attack, not an actual projectile...

I've worked with particles a lot. Go ahead and test it, or you can trust me.

Well, I wasn't sure if you'd undertood what I meant so I did go ahead and try it. It does work! You'll have to get the the model in tha right position and tweak the trajectory settings in part_projectile.xml to make it look fairly good. But good news are: it doesn't matter if the axe is double bladed or not as that rotation (along X) will not happen, only along Z.
So ok, the warrior will have a single bladed axe.

Dragon Slayer: Battle Axe
I actually think the axe it has now fits very well. Can you give us some example / concept art of the axe you were thinking of?

The axe he's using now is just kind of stupid(no offense Wciow), there is no way your could kill a dragon with that puny little thing(so he's not much of a dragon slayer Tongue). To me, it looks like some kind of ritual axe to sacrifice goats.

I was thinking I could replace it with something like:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/104809081/Kite_Rea_Battle_Axe_Black_.jpg
That looks daunting! Which means I like it!  Cool
Will you model it?

If you want...

Well, it's your idea and I still think what he has now is good enough - and, I hadn't said this before, it's BIGGER than the axe of the warrior. Tongue It's not double bladed but it's certainly bigger. Wink
So yeah, the concept art you posted does look better and if you model it, we'll use it instead of the current one. If not, I'm not really motivated enough...  Cheesy

I can model it, but it'll be hard because I don't know how to use mirror, could you teach me?
Oh, and you'll have to texture it...
Anyway the pic I gave you could be used for the texture.....so it should be pretty easy.

You mean the CTRL+M shortcut? It's easy!
I posted a mini howto here: https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5245.0
And I'll texture it alright, no prob.
EDIT: Recent votes say to give a flail to the Dragon slayer instead... What do you think?

@ ElimiNator / anyone working on the Goat texture:
My previous blend was not UV unwrapped correctly.
I simply forgot to mark seams for the legs, hence they were just two little points somewhere along the main body UV layout... Useless.
So I fixed that, also fixed some other stuff (including removing a face that was inside the mesh, hence invisible and useless). I improved the overall UV layout a lot too.
Link to the new .blend: http://www.mediafire.com/?yuqzlgmzzty
Are you actually working on this, Elim? If not, please do tell me so I'll do it myself, ok?
Thanks!

[-Archmage-]

I've made an axe for the Dragon Slayer and the Warrior. DOWNLOAD LINK

About the particle, there is no way to have an axe throw that looks realistic, you can have one that looks like the axe throwers in MegaPack, but it doesn't get any better.

[jda]

Maybe it won't look better... but it will rotate! But I only tried it with the warrior tossing a skyship bomb (hey, it was just for testing and it was there! ) and never did bother to mess with the trajectory parameteres... So maybe you're right. I'll try it a bit more when it's time (that'll be in 0.4, there's stil a lot to do for 0.2 ).

K, downloaded the axes, will take a look at them now (boy, that was fast, I just posted on the other thread you should use the mirror modifier instead of what I'd described  ).

[-Archmage-]

I've already used both methods on two different models, they're both fine methods, but Johns in better, no offense .

[jda]

I thought you'd told John's mine was better?...  
Anyways, I think in this case, John's method is better.

I looked at your blends. You've really done the Dragon slayer's axe beautifully!   Very nice.
The warrior's one is great too.
But are those the intended relative proportions? I mean is the Slayer's axe meant to be that much bigger than that of the warrior's?

[-Archmage-]

I didn't think about sizes, I'm counting on you to take care of the sizing issues.

[jda]

That's a relief! 

[-Archmage-]

EDIT: Recent votes say to give a flail to the Dragon slayer instead... What do you think?

No flail.

[modman]

EDIT: Recent votes say to give a flail to the Dragon slayer instead... What do you think?

No flail.

If you give the Dragon Slayer a flail, make sure there is another unit with a giant hammer.  Dwarves are famous for hammers.   But in the poll, giving the flail to the Dragon Slayer and a halberd to the Outrider.

Below is a bunch of Dwarves.  Maybe their weapons should be taken from this instead.

[John.d.h]

Anybody mind explaining how the heck you're going to kill a dragon with a flail?  At least an axe can bite deep into its flesh, but I don't think a flail would do much but piss it off.

[jda]

Thanks for the great post, Sir Modman! Nice concept art!

Only... we can only have so many units on the faction... Thinking of weapons for the medieval units in this faction, I feel more and more inclined to do a Medieval-Fantasy only Dwarf faction. But wciow's Modern units are just too awesome to be left out!!!!  

Well... back to Earth...

The battleaxe Archmage did for the Slayer is just perfect for him so we won't be changing that.
I did consider giving the flail to the Guardian and give his hammer to noone but considering the point Sir Modman did about dwarven hammers... I think we just have to make a really cool animation with it instead of the current one that is so worn out (it's like every slasher unit's attack, really... (though the magic Ghost Armor has a much cooler one) And it's not even a "slasher" attack!). Ok, we'll keep the Guardian with the hammer but definitelly make a whole new animation with it (on Aglarond 0.3)).

We could give the flail to the warrior (flails though impressive looking weapons are actually not as effective as axes!   ) and thus have a completely different animation with it, which would be very cool.
So... Archmage, what is your problem with the flail? Is it flails in general or was it just regarding the Dragon slayer?  

Anybody mind explaining how the heck you're going to kill a dragon with a flail?  At least an axe can bite deep into its flesh, but I don't think a flail would do much but piss it off.

Ah... I was posting when I got notified of this.
Completely true. I was hoping people would be too impressed with its swing to actually remember that!...

[-Archmage-]

No weapon known to man dwarf or whatever can pierce dragon scales, you have to strike it's heart with a powerful weapon such as an axe, a flail, unless used perfectly would be harmless against a dragon. A dragons heart is located in it's lower neck, that's why you strike at it when it rears up and throws it's head back.

Ok, we'll keep the Guardian with the hammer but definitelly make a whole new animation with it (on Aglarond 0.3)).

The new name for the hero, right?

We could give the flail to the warrior (flails though impressive looking weapons are actually not as effective as axes!  Look ) and thus have a completely different animation with it, which would be very cool.

Watch the third LOtR movie and then say that again.
But it really depends because there are many types of both flails and axes.

So... Archmage, what is your problem with the flail? Is it flails in general or was it just regarding the Dragon slayer?  No Opinion

Didn't you notice the sarcastic smile? Which is: 
I was just being dramatic.

[jda]

No weapon known to man dwarf or whatever can pierce dragon scales, you have to strike it's heart with a powerful weapon such as an axe, a flail, unless used perfectly would be harmless against a dragon. A dragons heart is located in it's lower neck, that's why you strike at it when it rears up and throws it's head back.

Interesting. Also makes me think the Dragon slayer's dying anim should be his head being chopped off (am I being too "colorful" ) or something because his whole body (almost whole) is covered by a dragon scale's chailmail...

Ok, we'll keep the Guardian with the hammer but definitelly make a whole new animation with it (on Aglarond 0.3)).

The new name for the hero, right?

Yes, it was already the hero's new name in wciow's last release.

We could give the flail to the warrior (flails though impressive looking weapons are actually not as effective as axes!  Look ) and thus have a completely different animation with it, which would be very cool.

Watch the third LOtR movie and then say that again.
But it really depends because there are many types of both flails and axes.

I watched a documentary where they actually hit a (obviously already dead) pig's body with a real flail and a real axe (well, a picker actually) and watched the damages (both hits to the ribs). Best you could get with a flail would be some broken bone and pierced outter muscle, the picket would pierce the outter muscles, break the bones and pierce through the lungs causing drowning in own blood.

So... Archmage, what is your problem with the flail? Is it flails in general or was it just regarding the Dragon slayer?  No Opinion

Didn't you notice the sarcastic smile? Which is:  
I was just being dramatic.

Ok. We'll probably give the flail to the warrior then, though there's one more vote to give it to the dragon slayer.
I think at least John.d.h, you an me agree we should give it an actually more powerful weapon.

And the outrider will have your halberd too. I guess I could close the poll. But let's wait. maybe someone suggests something not on that list we may actually prefer.

[wyvern]

How about giving the outrider a short cavalry crossbow to go with the halberd I think you should keep the guardians hammer though, I like the axe idea for the dragon slayer

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: -Archmage- on April 02, 2010, 17:42:39
No weapon known to man dwarf or whatever can pierce dragon scales, you have to strike it's heart with a powerful weapon such as an axe, a flail, unless used perfectly would be harmless against a dragon. A dragons heart is located in it's lower neck, that's why you strike at it when it rears up and throws it's head back. Smile
Interesting. Also makes me think the Dragon slayer's dying anim should be his head being chopped off (am I being too "colorful" Tongue) or something because his whole body (almost whole) is covered by a dragon scale's chailmail... Grin

Well........it would look pretty strange having the head being chopped off by....say a guy with a hammer, an archer?

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Ok, we'll keep the Guardian with the hammer but definitelly make a whole new animation with it (on Aglarond 0.3)).

The new name for the hero, right?
Yes, it was already the hero's new name in wciow's last release.

*headdesk*

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Quote
We could give the flail to the warrior (flails though impressive looking weapons are actually not as effective as axes!  Look ) and thus have a completely different animation with it, which would be very cool.

Watch the third LOtR movie and then say that again.
But it really depends because there are many types of both flails and axes.
I watched a documentary where they actually hit a (obviously already dead) pig's body with a real flail and a real axe (well, a picker actually) and watched the damages (both hits to the ribs). Best you could get with a flail would be some broken bone and pierced outter muscle, the picket would pierce the outter muscles, break the bones and pierce through the lungs causing drowning in own blood. Tongue

On that thought I will begin meditating.

Ok. Smile We'll probably give the flail to the warrior then, though there's one more vote to give it to the dragon slayer.
I think at least John.d.h, you an me agree we should give it an actually more powerful weapon. Wink

And the outrider will have your halberd too. I guess I could close the poll. But let's wait. maybe someone suggests something not on that list we may actually prefer. Wink

Well, not to be an *ss, but if I don't agree with the weapon choice, I won't animate it, and a flail is extremely difficult.

[John.d.h]

I would think the flail wouldn't be hard at all if you use Auto-IK.

[-Archmage-]

Well, Auto IK could be useful, to quickly get the bones where you want them, but still, I'm talking about realistic, so I'd need to use more tricks than autoIK.

But, to make it clear, I think flails have no place in this mod, I mean seriously, dwarves are pretty short, how are they supposed to use flails very effectively?

[ElimiNator]

I would think the flail wouldn't be hard at all if you use Auto-IK.

What is autoIK?

[-Archmage-]

AutoIK, is a thing you can use to "AutoIK-icallize" armatures.
Each parent is pointed at it's child, so you move the bone at the end of a string, the whole bone line moves, like a chain, John you have a go at explaining it, and then let's end the OT.

PS: John I learned AutoIK from you. Thanks!
How: When I was working on the Harpy, AutoIK was very annoying, and I didn't know that AutoIK was at fault, I rooted around and eventually noticed the AutoIK button and toggled it off, then the rig was normal, so again, thanks!!!

[John.d.h]

https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5270.msg44736#msg44736

/OT

[jda]

How about giving the outrider a short cavalry crossbow to go with the halberd

The crossbow would be a very nice option for the outrider. But do note the range of a crossbow would be much higher than that of the halberd.
Furthermore, the outrider (when completed, not on the next release (0.2) but only on 0.4) will already have two different attacks: the range 3 attack with the rider's halberd and the range 1 EP dependent charge attack with the rhinox's horns. Having three attacks would be too much I think.

So... if we were to give the outrider a crossbow, we would remove its halberd. And I'm not sure the outrider actually needs a more ranged attack.
Pros : The crossbow's increased range would make up for the outrider's lack of speed when compared to the tech horseman and the magic drake rider.
Cons : The outrider, though being slower than its "rivals", has higher HP, higher armor and I think higher attack damage (if it hasn't got the later, it will probably have it in future versions). Also, we already have an unit with a crossbow (the Dragon slayer) and I'd prefer we had different units have different weapons/attack animations. Archmage's halberd looks really nice!

Still... we might consider it. Thanks for the idea.  

I think you should keep the guardians hammer though, I like the axe idea for the dragon slayer

It seems we will do just that.

Quote from: -Archmage- on April 02, 2010, 17:42:39
No weapon known to man dwarf or whatever can pierce dragon scales, you have to strike it's heart with a powerful weapon such as an axe, a flail, unless used perfectly would be harmless against a dragon. A dragons heart is located in it's lower neck, that's why you strike at it when it rears up and throws it's head back. Smile
Interesting. Also makes me think the Dragon slayer's dying anim should be his head being chopped off (am I being too "colorful" Tongue) or something because his whole body (almost whole) is covered by a dragon scale's chailmail... Grin

Well........it would look pretty strange having the head being chopped off by....say a guy with a hammer, an archer?

It would indeed.

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Ok, we'll keep the Guardian with the hammer but definitelly make a whole new animation with it (on Aglarond 0.3)).

The new name for the hero, right?
Yes, it was already the hero's new name in wciow's last release.

*headdesk*

Hey, stop beating up my friend or you'll get it!   (I'm talking to and about you, Arch! )

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Quote
We could give the flail to the warrior (flails though impressive looking weapons are actually not as effective as axes!  Look ) and thus have a completely different animation with it, which would be very cool.

Watch the third LOtR movie and then say that again.
But it really depends because there are many types of both flails and axes.
I watched a documentary where they actually hit a (obviously already dead) pig's body with a real flail and a real axe (well, a picker actually) and watched the damages (both hits to the ribs). Best you could get with a flail would be some broken bone and pierced outter muscle, the picket would pierce the outter muscles, break the bones and pierce through the lungs causing drowning in own blood. Tongue

On that thought I will begin meditating.

Please don't.

Ok. Smile We'll probably give the flail to the warrior then, though there's one more vote to give it to the dragon slayer.
I think at least John.d.h, you an me agree we should give it an actually more powerful weapon. Wink

And the outrider will have your halberd too. I guess I could close the poll. But let's wait. maybe someone suggests something not on that list we may actually prefer. Wink

Well, not to be an *ss, but if I don't agree with the weapon choice, I won't animate it, and a flail is extremely difficult.

Well, everything you don't animate, I'll try it myself. If it sucks, well... I guess we'll have to do it your way then.

I would think the flail wouldn't be hard at all if you use Auto-IK.

https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5270.msg44736#msg44736

/OT

Thanks for the tip and the excellent explanation.  
And now for something completelly different:
Wild-*ss guess: How about physics? I know basically nothing about it and never clicked the little button in my life. Still... I understand you can have clothes affected by physics (e.g. wind...? )...
Can you make the flail's chain be a cloth as in like a piece of rope and give weight to the ball/cylinder on its end and apply force vectors to it so it gains momentum and reactions?  

But, to make it clear, I think flails have no place in this mod, I mean seriously, dwarves are pretty short, how are they supposed to use flails very effectively?

Erm... the same way they are supposed to use axes, hammers, swords...?
Actually, a flail, IMHO might be easier to handle effectivelly with a shorter arm than any of the above... All the others need the momentum created by the whole arm down from the shoulder (even from the rest of the body). The flail I think works more like a whip: flick of the rist (with a bit more of strength needed alright, say flick of the arm Still, easier than a non-whipping weapon, I'd guess.   )

EDIT (sp. @ Eliminator ): I almost forgot... ElimiNator kindly provided the texture for the Goat!  
Looks nice, though the lines that separate the black and the brown parts of the fur are a bit too straight. Don't get me wrong, the transition is very smooth and the colors blend perfectly - that's not the problem at all! It's just that e.g. the top black stripe looks like a thick straight perfect line, it should be less perfect! It should for example get wider at about the center of the body, preferably a bit wider on one side (right or left) than the other or one side start widening before the other side... you get hte picture...
Still, I think I can easily fix it by simply moving and rotating around some of the faces on the UV map a bit. I'll put it up here when it's done.
Overall, the texture looks really good! 
Thanks, Elim!