Debate: Creationism vs Evolution

[modman]

Rules
Since I started this topic, I believe I should make some ground rules.  Feel free to quote these if someone violates them, and hopefully I can keep my dignity by not breaking them myself.  I'll add more as I see fit.

1. Do not make blanket statements or claims that cannot be supported with evidence or logic.  If you cannot explain why something is evidence, you obviously do not understand it well enough to claim it to be evidence.  I suggest dealing with violations of this rule like this:

blanket statements or claims

Boooo...  Violation of rule one.

2. Non-constructive one-liners, for example simply stating "I agree" or "you're wrong" are not helpful for debate and should probably be deleted by moderators, since they add nothing by post count and your avatar.  And, I have to scroll though a bunch of garbage, wasting everyone's time.

3. Religious documents should not be represented as anything but anecdotal evidence.  See rule one.

4. Personal attacks or any other sort of derogatory comments or foul language is strictly prohibited.  Users who violate this rule risk their post being deleted outright.  People who think that the best use of their freedom of speech is to badmouth those whom they disagree with have no place in debate.

Definition of Evolution

1) The change in genetic composition of a population over successive generations, which may be caused by natural selection, inbreeding, hybridization, or mutation.

(2) The sequence of events depicting the evolutionary development of a species or of a group of related organisms; phylogeny.

Supplement

In order for evolution to occur, there must be genetic variation. Genetic variation brings about evolution. Without it there will be no evolution. There are two major mechanisms that drive evolution. First is natural selection. Individuals with advantageous traits are more likely to reproduce successfully, passing these traits to the next generation. This kind of evolution driven by natural selection is called adaptive evolution. Another mechanism involves genetic drift, which produces random changes in the frequency of traits in a population. Evolution that arises from genetic drift is called neutral evolution.

Definition of Creationism

A doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis.

[ElimiNator]

I want to ask a question:

Where did the very first cell / rock / anything that was in existence come from?

[Gabbe]

Abiogenesis, wait for modman to copy the other posts?

[John.d.h]

Abiogenesis isn't really the same thing as creation vs. evolution, but I guess this is as good a place as any to discuss.

[Gabbe]

the evolution debate won`t change anyways, no matter what evidence...
Actually, i thought this might be something for arch to diguiss, cause without arch, there will be no debate....

seems all creationists have gone  :'(

Eliminator did you get your answer? or do you want to check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

[modman]

I want to ask a question:

Where did the very first cell / rock / anything that was in existence come from?

Because it may have only happened once in all of Earth's history, this is not easy to test, and abiogenesis hypotheses are little more than plausible speculation: educated guesses.  In this sense, until testing can be done, these hypotheses fall into the same category as creationism, not science.

I would really like to avoid discussion of that topic though, because there's really no debate, just as there is (practically) no science to find out what happened moments before the big bang.  Maybe this should be a rule, since abiogenesis is not any part of evolution.  As far as evolution is concerned (I think I may have said this before), God may have created the first living cell.

[Gabbe]

I want to ask a question:

Where did the very first cell / rock / anything that was in existence come from?

Because it may have only happened once in all of Earth's history, this is not easy to test, and abiogenesis hypotheses are little more than plausible speculation: educated guesses.  In this sense, until testing can be done, these hypotheses fall into the same category as creationism, not science.

I would really like to avoid discussion of that topic though, because there's really no debate, just as there is (practically) no science to find out what happened moments before the big bang.  Maybe this should be a rule, since abiogenesis is not any part of evolution.  As far as evolution is concerned (I think I may have said this before), God may have created the first living cell.

Thank you for that, but there are no creationists ready to debate yet, so i just tried to get a diguission on that topic...Slight on topic but...

[-Archmage-]

I am not debating because I don't want to.

[Gabbe]

Or because you ran out of arguments, who knows... 

[-Archmage-]

Think what you like, I don't want to debate.

[You two are just violating rule #2... - @kukac@]

[Gabbe]

Arch, (prob not reading this) i bought ... or rather, my parents bought the movie online i can now watch it, stay tuned....

[I am looking at this. Have fun watching the video! -- Arch (Hope you don't mind me editing your post)]

[Gabbe]

yet to watch the movie, cause when it got here, it was BROKEN!

But any creationists should try spore sometime...

[Gabbe]

and try this: http://www.spore.com/static/war/images/community/prototypes/ParticleMan.zip

[-Archmage-]

yet to watch the movie, cause when it got here, it was BROKEN! Angry Angry Angry

Mine was fine........

[Gabbe]

it did try watching it, but it was a cut in the cd

[modman]

Don't try to tell me that genetic "information" is related to how complex the creature is.  Anyone want to take a guess on which species has the most genetic base pairs?  Amoeba dubia has 670 billion.  Humans have about 2.9 billion.

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/02_01/Sizing_genomes.shtml

I am not debating because I don't want to.

Or because you ran out of arguments, who knows...

Think what you like, I don't want to debate.

And wow, we have a lot of violations of rule 2 here.

Next time someone violates this rule (they have added nothing but length to the debate), please delete their post.

[Gabbe]

How come that creature has a bigger genome? is it because it is more complex than us or what? i see the human specie as very little complex, as it features almost noone things like poison, big teeth, horns, only a big brain and hair, that is basic what is special about us.  arch said the human body was so extreme complex, i say otherwise, compare us to a elephant, does not the elephant feature more things than we do? does not the lions feature more than us? What about the crocodile, isn`t it much better adapted to the environment than us?

All i see is that humans only advantage is the brain, the huge things that makes you think.

[modman]

From now on, evolution needs to be debated here, not in the religious debate topic.  That topic is not for worldview discussion.

My question to creationists: how did larger animals escape the Dinosaur Extinction?  Why did all other large animals die out, but not elephants?  Or any of the big cats?

[-Archmage-]

My question to you:

You have been defeated by a simple train of logic, you have not replyed to it, why?

My question to creationists: how did larger animals escape the Dinosaur Extinction?  Why did all other large animals die out, but not elephants?  Or any of the big cats?

We believe that there is a creator, he created the universe, so you'd think he could change it, and remove some dinosaurs to put some Humans and see what they will do.
I think I would get pretty board watching a bunch of dinosaurs eat things and run around all the time. Besides you are asking something that only God would really know.

[Zoythrus]

there's this thing you might have heard about, its called Noah's Ark...

[modman]

You have been defeated by a simple train of logic, you have not replyed to it, why?

No, I don't recall being defeated.  Did I miss the ceremony?

Seriously though, where?

My question to creationists: how did larger animals escape the Dinosaur Extinction?  Why did all other large animals die out, but not elephants?  Or any of the big cats?

We believe that there is a creator, he created the universe, so you'd think he could change it, and remove some dinosaurs to put some Humans and see what they will do.

So...basically...Earth is a giant zoo?  No, better than that, the greatest gladiator fight ever, where whole nations will slaughter one another.  How sadistic.

Finally, if God is willing to take out the dinosaurs, why not Nero?  You believe that God stood by with His arms crossed while Nero happily either sacrificed or executed up to 20 thousand Christians.  Honestly, where is a "divine heart attack" when you need one?

I think I would get pretty board watching a bunch of dinosaurs eat things and run around all the time. Besides you are asking something that only God would really know.

Understand you yourself have created a justification on God's behalf, something you claim not to be able to do.  You must admit ignorance, but this would require you to give up dogma.

You are neglecting your creation myth.  All animals were created in days five and six.  This means there must have been humans walking with dinosaurs.

But humans have been around for less than 100 thousand years.  This leave almost a complete 65 million years of nothing.  Obviously there wasn't no development towards humans, but you don't believe humans are related to lower primates, so you will admit nothing (interesting) was happening.

Besides, most humans throughout history have lived out their whole lives without ever hearing of Judeo-Christianity.

there's this thing you might have heard about, its called Noah's Ark...

3. Religious documents should not be represented as anything but anecdotal evidence.  See rule one.

You believe it.  I don't.  Why should I?  Show me that what you believe is reasonable, and not what I suspect it is.  I don't have to even acknowledge anything that isn't a logical argument or a set of evidences.

Besides, I risked a strawman by bringing the topic up.  I don't want to assume all creationists believe in Noah's Ark.

[ElimiNator]

Didn't you watch the video I posted a wile back?

[@kukac@]

Brought to you from the other topic.

That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.......
So are you implying ID or something?

I will ask once again: Where the **** did you get, that evolution is random? That thing alone kills half of the discussion...

Evolution is not intelligent... you don't seem to understand, what are we talking about. But your wounds at least don't heal, because your skin is not intelligent either

When I lift weights, my DNA is not being written to have stronger muscles.
Why? Because if I don't lift weights, then I'll revert to my natural physical strength in a week or so.

Yeah, and we talked about devolution a while ago. If you don't need muscles anymore (in space, for example), then why would you waste your precious energy to keep it in condition?

BTW, it's been proven that the size of a brain does not determine the intelligence of a person.

Yeah, and what's your point?

My Dad's going die laughing at your post, no offense, but it's completely ridiculous.

Don't be sad for even a minute, we are laughing at you too

Also, according to the theory of evolution itself(which of course leaves out the part about how unpredictable the mutations are, and how random), radiation, viruses, etc..., cause mutations, without intelligence, which are basically unpredictable, and could be considered random.

Evolution is not random. (Typing it since March, it's really just a harmless way for me to kill some time )

and then if those mutations cause the body to die, then boom natural selection, the body is dead and the mutation isn't carried on.

That's the main event. Forget your previous sentence, that confused you :S

Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations,

You!

You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?

Why do you think, evolution is 1 cell/generation? The dodo couldn't fly either, and was totally fine, until the guns Ohh, my pictures don't prove anything. The Bible neither, but who cares

Just because you don't like what you may think evolution causes, it doesn't mean evolution is false.

I will ask Hao, to make something with it

And who deleted my topic?  Whoever did that, please step forward, because I don't see a good reason why you should have done so.  As I said before, this topic is way to crammed with stuff to sift through it.

If you tell me, what kind of topic it was, then I might be able to tell more.

Kukac deleted your topic, he openly said that.

Oops, still don't know which one

[-Archmage-]

*facepalm*

Kukac, you are merely proving to me that you **.

Quote
That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.......
So are you implying ID or something?

I will ask once again: Where the **** did you get, that evolution is random? That thing alone kills half of the discussion...

Evolution is not intelligent... you don't seem to understand, what are we talking about. But your wounds at least don't heal, because your skin is not intelligent either Tongue

It's not intelligent, it's not random, well, what is it then?
As I stated "it could be considered random", because of it's unpredictability, and lack of intelligence.

Quote
When I lift weights, my DNA is not being written to have stronger muscles.
Why? Because if I don't lift weights, then I'll revert to my natural physical strength in a week or so.

Yeah, and we talked about devolution a while ago. If you don't need muscles anymore (in space, for example), then why would you waste your precious energy to keep it in condition?

You need muscles in space Kukac.

Quote
BTW, it's been proven that the size of a brain does not determine the intelligence of a person.

Yeah, and what's your point?

My point is that you said:

while the other will have "extra large brain".

...and I'm countering that.

Quote
Also, according to the theory of evolution itself(which of course leaves out the part about how unpredictable the mutations are, and how random), radiation, viruses, etc..., cause mutations, without intelligence, which are basically unpredictable, and could be considered random.

Evolution is not random. (Typing it since March, it's really just a harmless way for me to kill some time Cheesy )

Prove it then.

Quote
Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations,

You!

I'm being generic toward all you evolutionists.

Quote
You still have yet to tell me how a bird evolved wings, your picture is useless, because according to Evolution, it would be very small changes with each generation of birds, not three(somehow intelligent) random mutations. Oh BTW, did I mention you have to have some working wings?

Why do you think, evolution is 1 cell/generation? The dodo couldn't fly either, and was totally fine, until the guns Smile Ohh, my pictures don't prove anything. The Bible neither, but who cares Cheesy

I didn't say 1 cell/generation, I said "very small changes with each generation of birds".
Why do you think that the Bible is all the proof we have, the Bible is a fraction of the proof we have. Science backs us, Logic stands with us, DNA assaults you, Math hurls itself at you, the fossil record is laughing at you, and yet you claim to have all on your side, even ignoring the Cambrian Explosion.

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 20:46:30
You have been defeated by a simple train of logic, you have not replyed to it, why?

No, I don't recall being defeated.  Did I miss the ceremony? No Opinion

Seriously though, where?

Oh, sorry I forgot that you're blind to logic, and skip over it.
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=5156.msg47798#msg47798

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 20:46:30
Quote
My question to creationists: how did larger animals escape the Dinosaur Extinction?  Why did all other large animals die out, but not elephants?  Or any of the big cats?
We believe that there is a creator, he created the universe, so you'd think he could change it, and remove some dinosaurs to put some Humans and see what they will do.

So...basically...Earth is a giant zoo?  No, better than that, the greatest gladiator fight ever, where whole nations will slaughter one another.  How sadistic.

Finally, if God is willing to take out the dinosaurs, why not Nero?  You believe that God stood by with His arms crossed while Nero happily either sacrificed or executed up to 20 thousand Christians.  Honestly, where is a "divine heart attack" when you need one?

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 03, 2010, 20:46:30
I think I would get pretty board watching a bunch of dinosaurs eat things and run around all the time. Besides you are asking something that only God would really know.

Understand you yourself have created a justification on God's behalf, something you claim not to be able to do.  You must admit ignorance, but this would require you to give up dogma.

You are neglecting your creation myth.  All animals were created in days five and six.  This means there must have been humans walking with dinosaurs.

But humans have been around for less than 100 thousand years.  This leave almost a complete 65 million years of nothing.  Obviously there wasn't no development towards humans, but you don't believe humans are related to lower primates, so you will admit nothing (interesting) was happening.

Besides, most humans throughout history have lived out their whole lives without ever hearing of Judeo-Christianity.

As stated: "That's something only God would really know".
I'm just trying my best to guess, to try and satisfy a question you know I can't answer.

Quote from: Zoythrus on May 03, 2010, 21:14:31
there's this thing you might have heard about, its called Noah's Ark...

Quote from: Sir modman on April 14, 2010, 19:31:26
3. Religious documents should not be represented as anything but anecdotal evidence.  See rule one.

You believe it.  I don't.  Why should I?  Show me that what you believe is reasonable, and not what I suspect it is.  I don't have to even acknowledge anything that isn't a logical argument or a set of evidences.

Besides, I risked a strawman by bringing the topic up.  I don't want to assume all creationists believe in Noah's Ark.

Well, I guess I can ignore Evolution then.

Besides, if Evolution were true, and was possible, the Earth would be a zoo.

[@kukac@]

Besides, if Evolution were true, and was possible, the Earth would be a zoo.

You're right, there aren't any animals on Earth.

Ok, evolutionists lost, we have no choice but to surrender. I'm leaving this debate as a loser, and pray for Ranagol to give more such easy opponents in my life