Debate: Creationism vs Evolution

[Gabbe]

That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.......
So are you implying ID or something?

I will ask once again: Where the **** did you get, that evolution is random? That thing alone kills half of the discussion...

He got it to proove his own theory. It is a self-defence within debating. When someone debates and then suddenly brings up something that isn`t true but can be backed up with "evidence" and "research" in infinity. He uses arguments to defend his theory. When i debate i usually try to find the truth. If evolution was random it wouldn`t be evolution, creationism however is random. What if the creator created us, then how would he create us? there is a ton of ways to create a functioning eco-system.

Even if evolution were false, how would you proove creationism.

The chances of evolution are:  1:999999999999 to you.
The chances of creation is   :  1:∞

This makes evolution more possible.

And we can increase the chances of evolution by the observations of changing DNA and sometimes humans are born with a "talent".
And i`ve read (from here: http://illvit.no/, yes its norwegian, but use google translator, its a serious science-site) that some people were born with the (you can call it) mutation which made them able to calculate EXTREME maths. That is a positive mutation, and in todays society it would`ve been usefull.

Kukac, you are merely proving to me that you **.

Because he doesn`t belive in the teory if idiocy?

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That explanation implies intelligence, Evolution is not intelligent, it is pretty much random, and as Gabbe quoted is supposedly caused by radiation, viruses, etc.......
So are you implying ID or something?

I will ask once again: Where the **** did you get, that evolution is random? That thing alone kills half of the discussion...

Evolution is not intelligent... you don't seem to understand, what are we talking about. But your wounds at least don't heal, because your skin is not intelligent either Tongue

It's not intelligent, it's not random, well, what is it then?
As I stated "it could be considered random", because of it's unpredictability, and lack of intelligence.

It is not unpreditable, and it lacks INTELLIGENT DESIGN, it couldn`t be considered random because there are many factors with inputs to how a animal would evolve.

It is predictable.

You need muscles in space Kukac. Roll Eyes

Common, you aren`t that stupid? of course you don`t, there is no gravity and without gravity the muslces would not be necessary becuase evrything would move if you touched it. Nothing but the air you would need to breath would make you evolve muscles.

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Also, according to the theory of evolution itself(which of course leaves out the part about how unpredictable the mutations are, and how random), radiation, viruses, etc..., cause mutations, without intelligence, which are basically unpredictable, and could be considered random.

Evolution is not random. (Typing it since March, it's really just a harmless way for me to kill some time Cheesy )

Prove it then.

[Please behave yourself! - @kukac@]

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Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations,

You!

I'm being generic toward all you evolutionists.

Hes correct, you write at random and think evolution is random. Your the only one thinking it is random.

Why do you think that the Bible is all the proof we have

Because it is

the Bible is a fraction of the proof we have

And the bible isn`t a reliable source as it is very biased.
And the bible "prooves itself".

"the bible is written by god"

Why?

"Becuase god said so"

Why

"Because the bible says so"

Why

"Because the bible is written by god"

∞

[@kukac@]

Don't insult others, don't make large sizes, and please, don't make so many empty lines!

[-Archmage-]

You're right, there aren't any animals on Earth.

Bad wording on my part, thanks for being an ass, and picking the hay out of the needle stack.


*facepalm*

Gabbe, I feel terribly for you. You are making completely many empty and illogical claims.

The real math, not the stuff you just made up, but the real math, is totally against you.

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Kukac, you are merely proving to me that you **.
Because he doesn`t belive in the teory if idiocy?

No, because he does in the most idiotic theory, and he's trying to tell me that you don't need muscles in space.

It is not unpreditable, and it lacks INTELLIGENT DESIGN, it couldn`t be considered random because there are many factors with inputs to how a animal would evolve.

It is predictable.

So........where are your predictions, I saw a book, that had Evolutionary predictions, but we aren't evolving now, and I couldn't even imagine any reason why we'd be evolving in the future if not now.

Sorry, but the Human body show many signs of intelligent design(I'm not talking about the theory of God and evolution), I mean, I can walk. Why can I walk? Because my muscles are intelligently placed where I would need them to be able to walk. Also the fact that I can send brain signals different parts of my body to move the different parts of my body. Why? Because I have nerves that go all over my body, and I have the ability to send brain signals without even thinking about it, that is simply incredible, and is a major sign of intelligent creation of my body.

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You need muscles in space Kukac. Roll Eyes

Common, you aren`t that stupid? of course you don`t, there is no gravity and without gravity the muslces would not be necessary becuase evrything would move if you touched it. Nothing but the air you would need to breath would make you evolve muscles.

Dude, Modman would side with me on this one, ask him why.

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Now consider that you are talking about pretty much random mutations,

You!

I'm being generic toward all you evolutionists.

Hes correct, you write at random and think evolution is random. Your the only one thinking it is random.

I'm sorry that you're mistaken like that, because I'm am certainly not the only one who thinks Evolution is random, you have much to learn out creationists, including the fact that not all creationists believe in Biblical Creation.

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Why do you think that the Bible is all the proof we have

Because it is

That's very very arrogant of you, especially considering that you're wrong!

I think maybe you should wait and see "The Case for a Creator", before you keep making claims like that.

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the Bible is a fraction of the proof we have

And the bible isn`t a reliable source as it is very biased.
And the bible "prooves itself".

"the bible is written by god"

Why?

"Becuase god said so"

Why

"Because the bible says so"

Why

"Because the bible is written by god"

∞

I'll let you figure all that stuff out, while I debate science.

Don't insult others

Sorry.
It's just kinda maddening that you believe in such a ridiculous theory and then try to tell us the very things that defy evolution, support evolution.

[Gabbe]

(click to show/hide)

While living and working in space is mentally strenuous, the absence of gravity makes working in a spacecraft physically undemanding. On Earth, we must constantly use certain muscles to support ourselves against the force of gravity. These muscles, commonly called antigravity muscles, include the gastrocnemius (calf muscles), the quadriceps, and the muscles of the back and neck. Because astronauts work in a weightless (microgravity) environment, very little muscle contraction is needed to support their bodies or move around.

[Just give up, we can't win against his superior knowledge - @kukac@]

[wyvern]

Where did your Creator come from and how was he/she created, answer that Archmage old chap

[-Archmage-]

Gabbe, you need muscles in space including your back muscles, and thighs and stuff. Why? Because, while you won't have to use much strength you still have to be able to push your legs, move your fingers and stuff, and without back muscles, you can't arch your back or hold it straight, and you'll probably find it a lot harder to use your arms without your back muscles.

[Gabbe]

that text was from the canada space thing...

[Zoythrus]

want more science? there is this cell called a laminin. Laminins hold other cells together (a very important task!). Want a picture? go here:

http://iheartverve.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/laminin-large2.jpg

[Gabbe]

for ******** hell, thats a creationists webside, it talks about Jesus, the site may be in completely to approve religious beliefs, i however are unaware of this, i`ll look into it.

[Zoythrus]

now, science is in our favor...

[Gabbe]

im just not the person to ask about this.

now, science is in our favor...

!! You have for the moment made evolution mute, you have yet to proove creeation. and that cant be prooved unless you proove what the creator was. and were is it now, how did it get created.


Lamaninim as far as i can tell evolves with the cells, using them in cell cultures forming organisms, this is as far as i can tell repelled?

there is this cell called a laminin. Laminins hold other cells together (a very important task!).

Actually, when looked into, i can`t see how that is a argument, it would be nice if you provided more evidence.

Want a picture

I saw the picture, but i couldn`t understand the argument.

Seriously? a cross? is that your argument?

[Zoythrus]

did you read the verse at the bottom of the picture?

[Gabbe]

yup, but i don`t see the connection, is the verse from the bible?

And why is the laminin in a cross position?

[-Archmage-]

for ******** hell, thats a creationists webside

  Yup, yer an evolutionist alright!

[Gabbe]

How is that evidence for creation?

[-Archmage-]

for ******** hell, thats a creationists webside

How is that evidence for evolution?

[Zoythrus]

the laminin is in a cross position because that is how it looks in real life! the laminin is a cross (hint to Jesus obviously) that holds us all together!

[modman]

the laminin is in a cross position because that is how it looks in real life! the laminin is a cross (hint to Jesus obviously) that holds us all together.

No, it's only a "hint to Jesus" if you impose that on it.  Geeze, it's only a torture/execution device.  I might be inclined to give more of an explanation if it was a more complex shape.  Maybe the word "Christ" would suffice.  To think that seeing a simple geometric pattern in a protein is proof of your religion is wishful thinking.

The real math, not the stuff you just made up, but the real math, is totally against you.

If you say that one more time...@kukac@ should delete it.  And the rest of your post.  Do not post again on this topic until you give a sufficient explanation of the math.  This requires equations, and numbers, you know, "not the stuff you just made up".  No one wants to read half-baked answers where you repeat the same stuff over and over.  If I wanted that, I would watch FOX.

[-Archmage-]

I don't have equations and stuff like that for you, I never did the math, someone else did, and if you want me to find it, I'll have to look.

Modman do you believe that the universe was created by an intelligent being?

[@kukac@]

1. Why should I delete anything, which are not "intelligent" (as I told earlier, I could delete the whole off topic board this way )
2. I'm not gonna edit other people's posts, only for comment, censoring.

[Gabbe]

Actually, im doing the math, i`ll repost it here were it is more propriate:

call it damage if you want. 70% of mutations are bad 15% good 15% neutral.

We still have factors, these are the following:

The bad mutation only happens on one individual.
A specie usually consist of larger groups, i just estimate 5 million? change this number if you want
The good mutations are likely to pass on to the next generation. lets say 6,5% of the good mutations survive
The neutral ones are still neutral and will not affect the specie in any way.
Divide the 6,5% of the good mutations on 5 million.
Then we have 0,0000013% good mutations if one good mutation happens.
The 70% bad mutations Will probably have half of them survive.
35% bad mutations die off.
35 divided with 5 million.
0,000007% off the specie population die off with bad mutations
0,000007% off the specie population survive.
0,000002% with mutations in total survive.
2:7 that the the mutations will occur witht he whole specie.

Then the 6,5 % of good mutations will replicate, and most species replicate atleast four new individuals. and it is required 2 of the same specie to reproduce.
Then after one generation it would double the species with the good mutation.

This math is complicated, what if we joined forces and gathered information to solve the problem? I assume you also want to know the truth.

What we need of information is:

How many generations will it take for speciation to occur

What we have is:

70% of the mutations occuring are bad, but we don`t knwo the amount of individuals getting mutations.
15% of the mutations are good, but we don`t know the amount of individuals getting mutations
15% of the mutations are neutral, but we don`t know the amount of individuals getting mutations
It isn`t likely every bad mutation die off, so we can maybe divide that number with 2
It isn`t likely all of the good mutations will survive, lets take 2:3 of that number since it is more likely for those mutations to survive.
The neutral mutations stay neutral and don`t change.
We can assume that the specie have 5 million in population, if im not correct, feel free to talk to me about it.

X:5 billion?

This will give us the number of mutations occuring with the specie after one generation

then we must find out how many of the mutations are bad and how many are good.

Once we have that we must find out how many generations it would take for the specie to speciate and become two seperate species.

Then we must find out how much time we have.

Then find out how much time it would take to produce all the species at earth.

If it adds up we`re right
If it doesn`t add up your right creationists

Deal?

And we`ll have to find out how many species there are on earth today.

The response arch made to me was that he didn`t want to help me, im hoping someone else can.

100 million

Okay, there are 100 million species on earth, how many animals is there and then what is the average cell-amount of a living organism?

And a cell divides within half an hour, then multiply the amount of the average cell-amount on each animal with all the species on earth, dividing it with 4.54 billion, then divide it with 60, if we have around 30-50 then, evolution is possible.

crucifixion, hanging on a cross cross, widely used symbol. In various forms, it can be found in such diverse cultures as those of ancient India, Egypt, and pre-Columbian North America. It also is found in the megalithic monuments of Western Europe.
..... Click the link for more information. , in ancient times a method of capital punishment capital punishment, imposition of a penalty of death by the state.
History

Capital punishment was widely applied in ancient times; it can be found (c.1750 B.C.) in the Code of Hammurabi.
..... Click the link for more information. . It was practiced widely in the Middle East but not by the Greeks. The Romans, who may have borrowed it from Carthage, reserved it for slaves and despised malefactors. They used it frequently, as in the civil wars and in putting down the Jewish opposition. Crucifixion was probably at first a modification of hanging on a tree or impaling on a pole, and from such a connection come the synonyms tree and rood (i.e., rod or pole) for Jesus' cross. The Romans used mostly the T cross, the Latin cross, or St. Andrew's cross. Most ancient sources describe the cross Jesus died on as a Latin cross, the type most common in the liturgy of the West. It was common practice among the Romans to scourge the prisoner and to require him to carry his cross to the place of crucifixion. The prisoner was either nailed or tied to the cross, and, to induce more rapid death, his legs were often broken. Crucifixion was abolished when the empire became Christian.

The roman empire used crucifiction as a execution-method

A crucifix  (an image of Christ crucified on a cross) is the main religious symbol for Catholics, Eastern Orthodox  and Oriental Orthodox, but most Protestant  Christians prefer to use a cross without the figure (the "corpus" - Latin for "body") of Christ. The term crucifix derives from the Latin crucifixus  or cruci fixus (itself the past participle passive of crucifigere  or cruci figere, "crucify", "fix to a cross."[4])

So christians use it as a symbol of their belief because jesus died in a ordinary way that any thief or rebellion would have done?

During the first two centuries of Christianity, the cross may have been rare in Christian iconography, as it depicts a purposely painful and gruesome method of public execution. The Ichthys, or fish symbol, was used by early Christians. The Chi-Rho monogram, which was adopted by Constantine I in the fourth century as his banner (see labarum), was another Early Christian symbol of wide use.

So god had nothing to do with it, sorry but this points towrds something like, random choise of "evidence" supporting your belief.

But before we get to anything of that you must "proove" gods existance, which cannot be done as he is "omnipotent" i think.
It is actually very funny how sane people use the term "i think" while theists use "i belive"

We think, you belive.

[-Archmage-]

Gabbe Evolution is just not possible, without intelligence, a Human being could not be created, Evolution is pretty much random, it lacks intelligence.

Anybody who isn't stupid can look at the Human body and realize all the intelligence that's in our design.

You simply cannot have mutations without intelligence and expect improvements!

BTW, your math is far off, the chances of a good mutation are minimal, 15% is a lie. How do I know? I read up on mutations, Evolution is just too random!

[wyvern]

Like creationism isn't
Answer the question Arch where did your creator come from

[Gabbe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

Cambrian explosion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

Big Bang?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Evolution?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Evidence for evolution?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

Evidence for Creation?

None at present is shown at the pages of Wikipedia.

BTW do you understand how fast the time flows?

a second is still a second you know, and the cambiran explosion was around 800 million years, and that is very much.

100000000000 is a billion...
1000000 is a million
1000 is thousand
1 is one...

Many creationists are mislead into belive that the cambiran explosion was happening at a year or two... thats so obiviously false...

[-Archmage-]

Creationism is not random, nor does it have any mathematical faults.

Answer the question Arch where did your creator come from Tongue Tongue

Again, how am I supposed to know that? We're talking about an extremely powerful being. The only way I'm going to find out where he came from, is if he tells me.

Besides, our Creator may be beyond the confounds of time and space.


That question in reverse is much more damaging to the materialistic view, because everything in this universe is subject to time, and space. You think we're crazy because we think that our Creator may have always been. Well in your materialistic view, you believe that whatever caused the Big Bang was just there. Somehow, from nothing you got the laws of physics and some stuff which would be subject to those laws of physics, and that stuff would cause the Big Bang. Whereas we believe that our Creator may not be subject to universal law and time, so we actually have a possible theory.


Gabbe: Wikipedia claims to be neutral, but they support Evolution.