Author Topic: [invalid] Enhanced line of sight (experience points) don't work at all  (Read 2114 times)

McGyver008

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Hello alltogether. A long time this didn't attack my attention, since I did not 'observe' my units really intensive...
But when I saw units, which should have a 3 field larger line of sight and compared their (lighter shown) recognized terrain with other units, which come with this line of sight 'by nature', I saw the difference. So I made an experiment and modified for some units (and more than one faction, which showed me, this bug is definitely independent of the faction) their line of sight enhancement to larger values (in order to recognize a difference more easily). I saw, that none of these enhancements funcioned at all - for no unit and for no faction (at least I havent't found one yet... ;D).
I still use the latest MegaGlest, which was 3.3.4 before (it also had this bug) and now I changed to 3.3.4.3 - and still using Windows XP SP3.

Could anyone please try it to confirm this bug?
« Last Edit: 5 May 2010, 18:34:30 by McGyver008 »

softcoder

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Personally I have no idea what the problem is that you are trying to describe. Could you please try to re-explain in greater detail?

Thanks

McGyver008

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Ok, I'll try...  ;)

A Unit, which gets experience points, is 'upgrated', for example gets more armor. This is defined in the unit's XML-file and is called 'level'. A Behemoth (Magic) for example becomes 'better' (is upgrated by one level), if it kills 10 units (which, BTW, is also a 'bug', since a unit shouldn't get upgrates for killing own units... -!!!-). In Glest there seem to be a rule, which defines the values, by which the originals are modified when changing the unit's level.
The line of sight (a unit's 'horizon'  ::), in the XML one can find this - for a Behemoth: <sight value="10"/>
) also is enhanced, when changing this experience level. But it doesn't work, this enhanced line of sight... this was, what I wanted to tell....
I saw, that experienced units with a line of sight of, let's say 15+6 (which should be - I hope... - 21) still see only 15 fields...
« Last Edit: 5 May 2010, 18:53:53 by McGyver008 »

titi

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Did this work in normal glest 3.2.2? I never noticed that the "line of sight" was upgraded too?

( update: I tested it in glest 3.2.2.. I cannot see such an effect! Why do you say its a bug? I think its a wish, right? )
« Last Edit: 5 May 2010, 23:33:57 by titi »
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McGyver008

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But you do know, that for example armor, HP and EP also are upgrated (if a unit gets a higher level)... or die your units before they kill any enemy... ;D?
No, this did never work, but why is the sight of a unit (which is at it's creation time 10 fields) displayed like this '10+2', if it's upgrated (for example to 'ancient')? For example the armor of a unit also is upgrated, if it kills enough enemies. That's why it's important to keep a unit alive, when it killed enough other units - it get's much harder.
This shows, that the upgrade for a unit's armor works, the same for it's HP and EP,... but why not for it's sight? And you don't see a sense in a better sight...? Are you really sure???

silnarm

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It was obviously something that was removed from Glest, in an early V3, but not from the Unit's desc string. GAE still has the 1.2 multiplier per level (by 'default' of course, our levels are mod-able).
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McGyver008

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It was obviously something that was removed from Glest, in an early V3, but not from the Unit's desc string. GAE still has the 1.2 multiplier per level (by 'default' of course, our levels are mod-able).

Thanks a lot, ... but I must admit, I can't understand, why such a basic function - which is included in the majority of strategy games - is removed. Unit upgrading gives several additional possibilities for strategies... You do not have to simply build a mass of units (what is - and this is not only my personal opinion - stupid and boring...), but can concentrate on 'train' several units to stronger 'specialists' in order to save lots of resources (a unit, which lives a long live is much more convenient than a herd of - greenhorn/disposable - units).
So obviously the GAE team concentrates more on strategy than simply on BOOM-BANG...  ;D

To be serious, once again: Why does Mega Glest not support unit upgrading? There is hardly a problem in gameplay, if this works... and for interjections concerning 'balancing'... you will never reach a balanced game, as long as there are different faction involved. Upgrades also can be involved in the process of balancing... and if persons (humans...) are overcharged with this balancing, there is still the possibility to arrange PC's playing against each other and changing relevant parameters using - for example - some kind of KI (like evolution strategy, which is everything than complicating in this special case). My last statement might sound utopian to some readers, but... imagine a faction. Every unit is defined using parameters, which altogether form a 'genom' (per unit). Permanently early dying units are too weak - their parameters need more changes. Which changes are need? Well, if - after a genom change - these units die even earlier, the change was silly. This genom dies, without a chance for reproduction, whereas other become stronger (= live longer, higher rate of reproduction)... and so on.

There is no limit in possibilities, but - of course - a few machines should play the game several times with different factions (as with as many factions simultaneously as possible)... of course these games did not need to be 'visual' (graphic completely disabled) - except the first few games, which need to be visual for a first check.

Of course this will cause once again several people throw their hands up in horror or shaking their heads, but ... there's no such thing as a free lunch. Balancing either is one aspect of a game or it is of vitally importance.

A suggestion:
Why don't you make en-/disabling unit upgrading a part of the configuration (as a part of the games options,for example...)?

mjace72

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Re: Enhanced line of sight (experience points) don't work at all
« Reply #7 on: 12 May 2010, 02:49:35 »
The line of sight works in games I've been playing, one that comes to mind right away is the dark mages in the dark magic.  When I start my line defense at my base, usually at the traveled paths to my base, at the beginning of the game, archers can walk up and start shooting arrows at my mages and they never even sense the archer, or see him.  Now, when my first line starts registering kills, and the game progresses, my mages become expert mages, then master, then even heroric and can now see the archers, who can no longer stand at a distance, picking my mages off.  If that's not increased sight, I don't know what is.  I also notice this with the fire archers, from Indians.  Those are just two units I use most in defensive positions so if it's working for two units, from personal experience, I'm sure it works for all.

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Re: Enhanced line of sight (experience points) don't work at all
« Reply #8 on: 12 May 2010, 18:02:25 »
Maybe normally the difference is too small to notice?

McGyver008

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Re: Enhanced line of sight (experience points) don't work at all
« Reply #9 on: 12 May 2010, 19:22:04 »
@John.d.h: The difference is high and can be seen very clearly (for example 40% more, that is 14 fields instead of 10... you want to tell me, I can't see it? And I see this statement of silnarm: „It was obviously something that was removed from Glest, in an early V3, but not from the Unit's desc string. GAE still has the 1.2 multiplier per level (by 'default' of course, our levels are mod-able).”) - I tried G(lest) (A)dvanced (E)ngine.
Well, mjace72, nice, if my units can see more... but - sorry - I think, my strategic knowledge is better than my unit's knowledge?! I use a simple strategy against some factions, which is very often sucessful: One of my units provocate some of them, making them follow this unit. And some fields away I deposited several heavy unit's, which easily kill every follower. A unit, which sees more than me, will surely make the same mistake and react on such a provocation. That's why I prefer to see as far/wide as every of my units. In GAE this sight increases and I also recognize, what happens.
Once again: I wonder, why a game developer doesn't see the sense of a better sight. And it is a fact, that most of the strategy games out there make heavy use of a 'radar' (or something like this), which can be enhanced - so that one can watch the enemies. I am warned very early about a group of enemies, which intend to visit me... otherwise I recognize them not before they reach my basis... and so on.

mjace72

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Re: Enhanced line of sight (experience points) don't work at all
« Reply #10 on: 13 May 2010, 04:22:16 »
I'm not sure about all of that.  I would think line of sight means how far one unit can see and from playing the game I'm seeing that this does increase.  For me personally, it has little to do with strategic battle as I see it clearly on the defensive line.  I like to establish a defense and then take a more strategic action with my offensive units so if my defense can see the enemy coming from further away, it helps me to continue to focus on doing what needs to be done to defeat the enemies at their bases because I simply can't control every one of my units at once.

 

anything