Author Topic: Malevolent Rising - Remake  (Read 69808 times)

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #25 on: 17 May 2010, 00:45:51 »
Ok, I'll have a look at those tails, shouldn't be much work because I rigged them to their own bones in 3ds max, just hope they work right.
And the large tower is Necropolis which is used to create Werewolves and Satyrs.
Werewolves can then harvest and build the cave thing: Lycaden, which can train (create) Werewolf Ravagers and Werewolf Reapers which are the main light and heavy melee units, the Satyrs will build a Babel which looks like a temple with a large pillar in the middle (got its model ready, just needs texturing and stuff), this will train Satyr Soulpiercers and Satyr Impalers which are the main ranged light and heavy units. All my factions will use the same system and will be pretty much the same stats until upgrades come in, the magic units will be what make the difference though, got some really interesting things to put in from my mod. You know it's gonna be fun when you have a Cyberdemon and Spider Mastermind involved...!
My project: Malevolent Rising
My website: [http://nephrite.zxq.net/index.html]Nephrite[/url]
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jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #26 on: 17 May 2010, 01:48:45 »
Uh-oh... BAD NEWS!
Unfortunatelly, there's bug (I'd call it an omission but after my tests, I do call it a bug :P) in all three engines, GAE included. This is related to having two different kinds of worker units. The AI will use only one and ignore the other.
Here is the GAE ticket for it: Ticket #53: AI not 'aware' of different worker types
The ticket above actually links to the Dwarf faction I'm working on.

I didn't tell you about this before because I thought you were goiing to use different buildings for different worker units, which BTW will probably solve nothing (see my tests #2 and #3, and later):
Dwarf faction situation:
- Two different worker units ("Workers" and "Miners") can be produced by the main building ("Stronghold").
- The Worker can harvest Gold, Stone and Wood. It can also build buildings. It can be morphed to an Engineer later in the game.The Worker costs 80 gold to produce.
- The Miner can only harvest Gold and Stone. No other skills. But it harvests considerably faster than the worker (faster harvest speed and higher load capacity meaning less trips to the resource and back to the building it drops them in), specially fast harvesting Gold is a great advantage for the Dwarves, they also use Stone more than Magic and Tech so that's also good. The Miner costs 100 gold to produce.
- Default faction startup (defined in dwarves.xml) gives two Workers and one Miner to the player.
- All works fine on the Human-controlled faction.
- AI controlled faction (all four CPU Easy, CPU, CPU Ultra and CPU Mega) will produce only Workers, never a single Miner.
- AI will use the Miner given on startup correctly though.

My tests to try and workaround this bug were based on trying to make the production of the Miner more atractive to the AI:
#1 Make the two units cost the same. Results: No difference at all.
#2 Give the Miner an Attack skill and corresponding command (based off the Magic Initiate->Battlemage promotion the AI gladly does). Results: The AI still won't produce any Miner, plus it 'now' (then, when I tested) sometimes send the Miner out on a scouting mission...  ::) It's kind of logic that it would (I also tried three different attack values: symbolic, like 20 +-10 I think, = to the Warrior (basic military unit) attack, > Warrior attack). Still... why would it not procuce any, even when it was a better military unit than the Warrior?!  :o
#3 Give a Morph command for the Worker to morph to a Miner (by this time I was thinking I might actually get luckier in figuring this out if I tried and look at the source code, only... it's been almost 20 years... :P ). The AI never morphed it. Tried with appealing costs and such, still nothing. Actually... I gave free (no cost) morphing skills/commands to both the Worker and Miner to morph to each other and then back. The AI did not hesitate to morph the Miner given at startup to a Worker and never a Miner was seen again for those players (all CPU levels did this). :o
#4 Pretty much mixed all the above together in different mixes to try and make the Miner more appealing... No luck whatsoever. :P

Now that I'm thinking, the one thing I did not try was placing the Miner before the Worker on the list of units the Stronghold can produce. Hmm... I might try that... Maybe it will then produce Miners and once it needs wood (that the Miners can't harvest) maybe produce Workers...? I'll try. ;)


Back to your mod: Cyberdemons should be fun but what really gets me curious is that Spider Mastermind... 8)


EDIT: GOOD NEWS! We nailed the source of the bug! See reply #30 below. ;)
« Last Edit: 17 May 2010, 10:27:23 by jda »
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
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A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #27 on: 17 May 2010, 02:18:31 »
I also have found this to be true in my AC mod , they would use the builder , but not the gatherer which both were needed  :thumbup: good report jda

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #28 on: 17 May 2010, 02:27:45 »
Thanks for the compliment on the "report" (will be linking the GAE ticket back to that post above :P ).

Well, I tried reverting the order of the produce commands in my main building and nothing.

Then I thought... could "Worker" be hardcoded to be the default name of the worker unit? Some factions don't have "workers", but they do have only one worker-unit such as e.g Initiates; but still that might be a kind of fallback, producing a worker-unit other than "worker" only if no unit named "worker" was there?  :look:
But... renaming the unit is crashing the game ('cause I have to link back everything apropraiatelly and must have missed something).

So... now you're giving me another tip now, fluffy... are your units named "gatherer" and "builder"? Or is there a "worker" in there?...
More probably... will the engine only consider a unit a worker-type if it has a "build" command?...  :look:
Not testing today. :P
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #29 on: 17 May 2010, 03:49:53 »
One builds the other gathers the resource, but their names are "engineer" and "Rigger". I think the AI uses the build command to determine a worker unit cause my "engineer" has build commands , but my "rigger" does not sense it is just to gather resource and the AI will only produce "engineer's". However it will use the unit , it will not produce them , but it will use them. Forgot to mention that one  :look:

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #30 on: 17 May 2010, 10:25:40 »
Yeah, it's not the names (and the AI will use the gather-only Dwarf miner given at startup too).
It's the build skill/command:o

I gave the Miner a Build skill and command and the AI (all four levels) did produce Miners!!! ::)
So... source of the problem found...

But...
The initial GAE ticket (which refered to wciow's Dwarves) mentioned the AI chose to produce the different types randomly. I think I can confirm this. "Played" two games and the amount of workers/miners the CPU's produced varied. The first match had one CPU and no CPU Easy, the second match had one CPU Easy and no CPU (normal).
The changed player was Player 2 (Human Pl. 1) and on the first run, the CPU (normal) produced more workers than miners, the opposite on the second.
However, the CPU Ultra (same player # on both runs) produced more miners than workers but did it the other way around on the second run. The CPU Mega produced more workers on the first run and more miners on the second.
Same map on both runs of course. :P
Still, it's better than before. Though it would be nice for the AI to actually make sensible decisions on what worker-type to produce at any given time. ;)
And specially... that the gathering units be produced by the AI even if they don't have a build skill/command!  :look:

@ ChupaReaper
So... you're safe because both your units build erm buildings... ;) :thumbup:
You will need to keep that decision for all your factions though, even if you opted to have one where not both worker units built anything or changed your mind later. You must have each and every of your worker build something! At least til this gets fixed and the AI will actually produce gather-only units. ;)

(specially) @ Fluffy203
I'll try and add a 'dummy' build skill/command to my miner for the next Dwarf release, to build "nothing" pending on upgrade "none". Of course, I will have to make a folder units/nothing and corresponding basic units/nothing/nothing.xml as well as upgrades/none and upgrades/none/none.xml which will be available to be researched nowhere.
If this works out, the Miner will have a shaded out Build command that won't really look very good to the Human player but the AI will, hopefully, produce the bloody unit. ;D
And if that doesn't work (or maybe if it works, I might do the following later), I'll then have to actually make the miner build something, pro'ly some kind of small storage-building where they can drop the resources they harvest...  :|
Do you have any better ideas?
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #31 on: 17 May 2010, 11:21:19 »
That's a nasty bug, fortunately each worker unit I have will be basically the same, only they build different race buildings:
Werewolf: Lycaden, Spectral Gate, Housing (Not sure on name yet), Town (no name)
Satyr: Babel, Hell Portal, Housing (same, no name yet), Town (no name yet either)
The first two (Lycaden and Babel) produce basic units such as Werewolf Dual Bladers or Satyr Crossbowmen
Second two for magic units such as zombies, worgs, epions (giant shadow bats inspired by stronghold legends) or doom demons fro the satyr buildings!
Housing will increase the static population resource which limits how many units (not buildings) you can have and towns do the same but create more population and can have werewolves and satyrs produced from them, basically like the city but smaller.
Once I get the population resource going I'm going to make worker units free from the city because I've found that if you spam the AI until it runs out of resources it eventually can't produce any workers and gets stuck, well this would work for the human player too, so as long as the city is safe you can always get back into the game.
My project: Malevolent Rising
My website: [http://nephrite.zxq.net/index.html]Nephrite[/url]
"The world is round; it has no point."

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #32 on: 17 May 2010, 13:36:31 »
That's a nasty bug, fortunately each worker unit I have will be basically the same, only they build different race buildings:
Werewolf: Lycaden, Spectral Gate, Housing (Not sure on name yet), Town (no name)
Satyr: Babel, Hell Portal, Housing (same, no name yet), Town (no name yet either)
The first two (Lycaden and Babel) produce basic units such as Werewolf Dual Bladers or Satyr Crossbowmen
Second two for magic units such as zombies, worgs, epions (giant shadow bats inspired by stronghold legends) or doom demons fro the satyr buildings!
Sounds good. :) Most Magitech-like factions out there usually have more buildings and units per faction than what you mention. However, being that your factions will battle each other, not those other factions, your option for the number of units is perfectly good and I have thought more than once that if the factions had less units, specially less late-game destroy-most-anything-with-a-couple-hits, the gameplay might be more interesting. ;) Specially because your mod will have four (?) different factions which is much more and much more interesting than the usual two (or in some cases one to add to Magitech-like trees). I think it will be very cool and fun to play.  :thumbup:

Quote
Housing will increase the static population resource which limits how many units (not buildings) you can have and towns do the same but create more population and can have werewolves and satyrs produced from them, basically like the city but smaller.
Titi's Indians faction uses this same concept of Housing (though the actual buildings and such differ of course). The Indians are on Titi's Megapack V4 ("V5" doesn't really exist but you can get the latest Megapack, MegaGlest ready (but I think still compatible to vanilla Glest and hence GAE) from the MG's data package ;) ).

Quote
Once I get the population resource going I'm going to make worker units free from the city because I've found that if you spam the AI until it runs out of resources it eventually can't produce any workers and gets stuck, well this would work for the human player too, so as long as the city is safe you can always get back into the game.
This reminds me of the "disable (not destroy!) a Magic AI player on the spot" technique explained on the Glest Wikia Strategies section (I think under the strategy for the "Siege of Despair" scenario, difficulty-level deemed "Insane" :P ). ;)
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #33 on: 17 May 2010, 14:02:45 »
Quote
I'll try and add a 'dummy' build skill/command to my miner for the next Dwarf release, to build "nothing" pending on upgrade "none". Of course, I will have to make a folder units/nothing and corresponding basic units/nothing/nothing.xml as well as upgrades/none and upgrades/none/none.xml which will be available to be researched nowhere.
If this works out, the Miner will have a shaded out Build command that won't really look very good to the Human player but the AI will, hopefully, produce the bloody unit. Grin
And if that doesn't work (or maybe if it works, I might do the following later), I'll then have to actually make the miner build something, pro'ly some kind of small storage-building where they can drop the resources they harvest...  No Opinion


Actually seems like the best thing to do , is make a dummy and if that works , make them be able to build a drop off point , like a wharehouse and such  :thumbup:

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #34 on: 17 May 2010, 19:30:15 »
You're probably right but we're getting offtopic now. This mod's potential problem is not so... /OT ;D

But thanks! ;)
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #35 on: 17 May 2010, 22:57:03 »
5 factions, 10 races , 2 per faction and if they are all detailed enough I may eventually some day split them all up into 10 factions but that may simplify things too much as each race focuses on its own strategies and mixes with another such as the one I'm working on at the minute, Werewolves like speed (fast attacks, hp and ep regen and movement), Satyrs like power (increased attack, splash damage boosts, etc), together we have quite a reckless kill them before they kill you faction, where as some will be the opposite, balancing will be a challenge but it will be a while before I move onto my second faction.
The factions aren't going to be too small, I want to keep them interesting and have a few super units but these units will have weaknesses and will only be used in a certain way so they're powerful but must be used wisely to use their potential.

Quote
Titi's Indians faction uses this same concept of Housing (though the actual buildings and such differ of course). The Indians are on Titi's Megapack V4 ("V5" doesn't really exist but you can get the latest Megapack, MegaGlest ready (but I think still compatible to vanilla Glest and hence GAE) from the MG's data package  ).
Cool, I'll definitely get a population resource going then. Just got to finish the heavy werewolf dual scythe troops, the dual bladers turned out pretty well, their slashing animation looks good, gotta love 3ds max and its inverse kinetics.
My project: Malevolent Rising
My website: [http://nephrite.zxq.net/index.html]Nephrite[/url]
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Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #36 on: 18 May 2010, 00:14:13 »
Can i see progress cause this is a very very ambitious goal as i have said before and i wanna see how good you are , cause 10 factions is either A: Not going to be well done or B:Take you a year  :P

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #37 on: 18 May 2010, 10:14:35 »
Progress is in detail on my website the links on the first post, it's among my other projects though my old complete Doom one is offline at the minute.
Briefly though, I've finished three units, werewolf workers, ravagers (light melee) and reapers (heavy melee). The city building (Necropolis) is complete as is the werewolf barracks (Lycaden), going to start on the village now for increased population as I've got the population resource working, then the satyrs and their barracks. When all this is done it will be around 40-50% of the first faction as I have a lot of upgrades to make and magic units. I mentioned dragons as a separate set of units around at least 6 per faction but I'm work on this once I've completed all five factions and balanced them, the dragons will be a sort of mod expansion, also I don't think I'll be splitting the factions up into 10, if I decide I want to do more I'd maybe add a new faction but this is all once I've finished.
My project: Malevolent Rising
My website: [http://nephrite.zxq.net/index.html]Nephrite[/url]
"The world is round; it has no point."

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #38 on: 18 May 2010, 12:57:55 »
"5 factions, 10 races , 2 per faction" sounds cool.  8)

The factions aren't going to be too small, I want to keep them interesting and have a few super units but these units will have weaknesses and will only be used in a certain way so they're powerful but must be used wisely to use their potential.
I'm more of a fan of fun gameplay than glitter-shine myself but I do enjoy some good candy too. ;D

You're working at a good pace, I think. ;)  :thumbup:
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Zoythrus

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #39 on: 18 May 2010, 13:50:48 »
i just dont understand one thing, what's the point in having two different workers to create both sides of the faction? you should have one worker who builds shared buildings (the werewolves and satyrs would both come from the barracks equivalent). if the two species have allied, wouldnt seem odd that their forces have to be separated like that?

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jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #40 on: 18 May 2010, 14:12:56 »
i just dont understand one thing, what's the point in having two different workers to create both sides of the faction?
For the exact same reason you have several different military units. It makes it more interesting. ;)

Quote
if the two species have allied, wouldnt seem odd that their forces have to be separated like that?
Not at all. Any allied forces in the real world are trained in their respective countries/militaries, even if one gets to be under the command of another one in a given mission. They may have common briefings but are not "produced" (in the Glest sense) in the same "barracks". :P
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Zoythrus

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #41 on: 18 May 2010, 19:26:30 »
yeah, but it seems then that they should follow the subfaction concept. each faction has two sides. in this case, the brute force/melee werewolves or the practical satyrs. im just going from the aspect that having a duplicate of everything would become confusing eventually (and not to mention the space needed to build all the buildings)

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Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #42 on: 18 May 2010, 23:18:16 »
I agree , i think you are going to over complicate your mod to the point of making no one want to play it , you want to think simple , not so complex. Don't get me wrong it has great potential , but it seems that you are only going to confuse the player , you should dumb it down a little bit , make it like 2 factions , 4 races . This is just my opinion and btw are you doing all of your models or are you using them from something and just importing them to the game?

jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #43 on: 19 May 2010, 00:02:44 »
I completelly disagree with you guys! :P

yeah, but it seems then that they should follow the subfaction concept.
WHY?! Because there are others doing it and so, doing it your way, this one would be more carbon-copy and less original?...  ::)

Quote
each faction has two sides. in this case, the brute force/melee werewolves or the practical satyrs. im just going from the aspect that having a duplicate of everything would become confusing eventually
 (and not to mention the space needed to build all the buildings)
1. All (most) factions now already have the exact same two sides ChupaReaper's Werewolves+Satyrs faction has: Melle and Ranged units.
2. If your problem is the two different kinds of worker units, it's not even orginal. The Dwarf faction has it, Fluffy mentioned a mod of his that has it. And I'm just mentioning the ones who have them right from the start... Tech (ya know, from the original Glest Team's Magitech) has it too! Both Tech Workers and Tech Technicians can harvest and BOTH BUILD DIFFERENT BUILDINGS of which very different sorts of units coming out of each. Really, I cannot understand what problem you might have with this...  ::)
3. The faction ChupaReaper is describing has, so far 3 (THREE) different buildings. Tech has 7 (SEVEN) different buildings. Magic has 6 (SIX). Room to build you say...?  :look:

I agree , i think you are going to over complicate your mod to the point of making no one want to play it , you want to think simple , not so complex.
I am pretty sure anyone not "complex" enough to apreciate the underlying background of allied races will very very very happilly play the said faction which BTW is at this moment simpler than Magitech. Even if said "special units" are added later. :P

Quote
Don't get me wrong it has great potential , but it seems that you are only going to confuse the player , you should dumb it down a little bit , make it like 2 factions , 4 races .
Tell you what...
Magitech - Two factions
Megapack v4 - Five factions
Everyone enjoyed the megapack, never thought it confusing and the current megapack included in MegaGlest has some 7 or 8 factions. Never heard anyone think that was a bad thing. Actually... people have mentioned adding this or that faction. People ask for more factions to pit against Magitech / Megapack all the time. Really... :P
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

Wyvern

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #44 on: 19 May 2010, 01:06:35 »
I agree with Jda
MERGE GAE AND MG ONCE AND FOR ALL

Fluffy203

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #45 on: 19 May 2010, 01:56:11 »
I'm not trying do discourage him at any rate , just letting him know that this is alot of work lol , but still jda maybe i didn't explain myself well here
Quote
Tell you what...
Magitech - Two factions
Megapack v4 - Five factions
Everyone enjoyed the megapack, never thought it confusing and the current megapack included in MegaGlest has some 7 or 8 factions. Never heard anyone think that was a bad thing. Actually... people have mentioned adding this or that faction. People ask for more factions to pit against Magitech / Megapack all the time. Really... Tongue
  I meant that actually interact with another , that are all formed in the same mod to make a complete mod or a story of some sort , not just random mods thrown together pitted against each other , i'm talking about factions that have to work together to balance your Mod out.

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #46 on: 19 May 2010, 02:30:41 »
Ok, well firstly werewolves and satyrs train very differently hence they would have different training grounds, also the story is where the werewolves save the satyrs from another faction and I'll be using the story scenarios to introduce everything so the player will pick up quick, also I'll be throwing in some basic tutorials for each faction. Second, I plan on making a few upgrades that only effect all werewolves/satyrs, it'd be tidier to have these split into each barracks, also I may eventually introduce ranged werewolves and melee satyrs, this would be long after my mod is complete though, I'm also thinking about creating mounted units of each race, will probably use morph upon death to dismount them and then a new mount can be bought to get their mount back again, I'll be doing this later too however. Now with at least three upgrades we have quite a lot of stuff for each race which can make a messy set of buttons for one barracks so in the end it's tidier to have two, also I'll be making some pretty big maps so the speed of units is more important (I could just use small maps and slow units but that would be boring vs big maps and fast units even though basically the same). I want the player to have a few buildings they need to protect but also a bit to fall back on, so if one barracks is gone, the other is still there giving them more of a chance to fight back, etc.
The more factions the more 'unique' each player can play, each race will have its own choice of strategies to offer for different situations and each faction has two races giving the player a lot to choose from but not too much, two players of the same faction could play very differently, then there's another four factions too, this means there's a lot to do and opponents can be very different every time. Just one faction is starting to seem fun enough thus my first release should hopefully be fun, then there's more to expand on so I don't get bored once I've finished. Ultimatly, I just like to leave things open for expansion, I could create a building that requires some upgrade to unlock which can produce basic fighters of both races at a faster rate but greater cost.I will be making some interesting story lines for each faction, so the player will get to know each one and also how each faction is with other factions, the idea behind lots of factions is to have for example the werewolf and satyr faction as the foresty-demomic blood and bone gothish sort of faction where as the likes of the gians will be more naturey and templely more themed for odd forests and tropical sandy zones rather than dark forests and hellfire. Each faction will have their native tilesets too but of course wont be restricted to their native ones, that way we can have factions that look out of place in some places bringing their culture to different lands, I could go on all day about this lol but there's the general idea, basically its not a bunch of different stuff thrown together, its a bunch of different stuff clashing and in the scenarios interacting through wars or alliances.


Development: All three werewolf units working nicely, city working, lycaden working, population resource working nicely too. Added three new buildings: Hut, House and Hamlet, each faction will have these though they will look different in each faction. Huts can be built increasing population by 10, these can be upgraded to houses which up population by 25 (not added to the 10 so a house = 25pop not 35). Houses can then be upgraded again, this is a costly and slow upgrade which increases population by 50 and the building morphs into a Hamlet. The initial hut should have plenty of space as the building size increases from 4>6>8 I think that's it, well the hamlet is 8, if there isn't enough room the upgrade is not allowed. I will be putting upgrades in the city which will eventually allow workers to build houses directly and then hamlets, this will cost more than starting with a hut and upgrading and will take a while to build but will be overall quicker. Hamlets can also produce workers like the city can. I'll post screenshots later on, I really must sleep now lmao!
« Last Edit: 19 May 2010, 02:41:09 by ChupaReaper »
My project: Malevolent Rising
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Zoythrus

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #47 on: 19 May 2010, 03:07:33 »
the way that you make it sound, the two species are only connected by one building - the city. i think that if they are allied, they should be a part of each other's lives more. the idea of having two separate versions of the same building seems...impersonal. i understand what you are saying, and like Fluffy i dont want to discourage you.

@jda: yes, i know that the factions that you mentioned have different workers, but that's not what i mean. it just seems that the two species have drawn a line between themselves. "your buildings only build your guys, and our buildings will only build ours" doesnt sound like an alliance to me...

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jda

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #48 on: 19 May 2010, 05:23:27 »
I'm not trying do discourage him at any rate , just letting him know that this is alot of work lol , but still jda maybe i didn't explain myself well here
Quote
Tell you what...
Magitech - Two factions
Megapack v4 - Five factions
Everyone enjoyed the megapack, never thought it confusing and the current megapack included in MegaGlest has some 7 or 8 factions. Never heard anyone think that was a bad thing. Actually... people have mentioned adding this or that faction. People ask for more factions to pit against Magitech / Megapack all the time. Really... Tongue
 I meant that actually interact with another , that are all formed in the same mod to make a complete mod or a story of some sort , not just random mods thrown together pitted against each other , i'm talking about factions that have to work together to balance your Mod out.
Yeah, I did get your point the first ime around. ;)
Titi actually changed the stats on the Magic and Tech he packed on the Megapack to make it easier to balance his own Norsemen, Indians and Persians to it. At least he did say all five of them were balanced out. And... people do expect it that way, sometimes they wonder about it, I actually noticed Titi giving a pretty good explanation for the Egypt Priests "overpower" not so long ago. ;)
Most factions are balanced to something else.
The Dwarf faction always meant to balance itself to Magitech.
The Ancient Egypt faction was balanced to the Megapack before it was included in (it was actually Assassin who started it, not Titi but I think titi did do most of the work in the end).
tiger's Africa faction was criticised for not being balanced out (to Magitech). He replied it was balanced to the Vbros Pack 1.
Any solo faction out there always gets some comment about its balance sooner or later... :P
And yeah, I agree ChupaReaper's project is ambitious but so far I had no reason to doubt he'll make it. IMO.

Great post, CupaReaper! A couple comments:
Ok, well firstly werewolves and satyrs train very differently hence they would have different training grounds, also the story is where the werewolves save the satyrs from another faction and I'll be using the story scenarios to introduce everything so the player will pick up quick, also I'll be throwing in some basic tutorials for each faction.
Cool. An actual storyline. 8)

Quote
I'm also thinking about creating mounted units of each race, will probably use morph upon death to dismount them and then a new mount can be bought to get their mount back again,
Problems and possible pathways:
- How do you determine unit's "death"? You can probably get this easily through LUA scripting  but the unit will be proper dead by then thus unable to morph... (the engine doesn't care whether your unit is an undead or something, Glest death is final :P ). Actually, you might... createUnit() at the position the concerning one had died ... Well... it may just be possible ... in LUA scritped scenarios only.
- You might get the mount to be a pet (GAE only feature) of the ... mounter - I think pets die when the master dies but not the other way around (not really in the know). Still... I don't think you can control regular pets as one single (mount/mounted) unit. I think the pet can be set to follow its owner... not the other way around. See how these two are mutually exclusive?... Now... the sollution will likely be an enhancement to the current Pets feature: Symbiotic pets. ;) But this is not implemented yet. Still... hopefully might be when you get to do that expansion. ;)
- silnarm did mention the possibility to change the current AI framework... under the hood. Currently it's all C++. The next sollution would be fundamental functionality in C++ and then LUA extensions to it. ;) I guess you could then rather easilly do the necessary LUA scripting, whether on XML or on the engine's data folder, becoming the said functionality available in scenrios as well as faction-mods too. ;)

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Now with at least three upgrades we have quite a lot of stuff for each race which can make a messy set of buttons for one barracks so in the end it's tidier to have two
Good principle, used in many mods out there (the good ones basically :P )

Quote
I want the player to have a few buildings they need to protect but also a bit to fall back on, so if one barracks is gone, the other is still there giving them more of a chance to fight back, etc.
Most players actually build several of the same building for this reason and because it makes it quicker to produce more units the more places to produce them in you have. ;)

Totally agree on "The more factions the more 'unique' each player can play" and all the rest. And again... it's not really new in Glest... just sensible. ;)

Quote
I could create a building that requires some upgrade to unlock which can produce basic fighters of both races at a faster rate but greater cost.[don't remember seeing this in Glest but it's obviously good. 8)

I will be making some interesting story lines for each faction, so the player will get to know each one and also how each faction is with other factions, the idea behind lots of factions is to have for example the werewolf and satyr faction as the foresty-demomic blood and bone gothish sort of faction where as the likes of the gians will be more naturey and templely more themed for odd forests and tropical sandy zones rather than dark forests and hellfire. Each faction will have their native tilesets too but of course wont be restricted to their native ones,

Quote
that way we can have factions that look out of place in some places bringing their culture to different lands, I could go on all day about this lol but there's the general idea, basically its not a bunch of different stuff thrown together, its a bunch of different stuff clashing and in the scenarios interacting through wars or alliances.
That's having a vision. ;)


Development sounds very good. :)
BTW... I forgot... you will have more than 3 buildings per faction even in the first release. Still... seems to be basically expanded by one if you keep upgrading the same one Housing building.  :thumbup:

Quote
the building size increases from 4>6>8 I think that's it, well the hamlet is 8
Careful! a size 8 building is huge for Glest standards and some maps have rather  little room for "base" (the place you put your buildings on) expansion...
Usually there is only on size 5 unit which is generally the main buinding. Most are not even size 4 but rather 3. Then again... if you only play your maps... but you'll be loosing the chance to play all the others. But that's your decision anyways. :P


@ Zoythrus
Oh, I'm finally getting your point now... But I don't really think you'll get that feeling ingame. You'll really be controlling both races as one faction. I don't think that one apparent aspect of segregation will run over the several aspects of cooperation I can see in ChupaReaper's description. I don't think that one thing will be so marking.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2010, 05:25:06 by jda »
Dwarf Aglarond faction, realease 0.1.2 published on December 16th 2011
Check the linked thread for details and up to date download link !
A patch with new Goat sounds has been released December 18th ! A new patch with minor improvements to the Goat animations has been released December 22nd !

ChupaReaper

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Re: Malevolent Rising -TC Project
« Reply #49 on: 19 May 2010, 10:19:37 »
The size 8 building is really a super building, it's hard to get and place and really is meant for starting off at another part of the map as it can make workers and hence a second base, etc, if there is little room multiple houses and huts could be easily built instead to boost population. I don't want this size 8 building to be too easy to get in game, I've already tested it in glest's swamp of sorrows and it fits nicely enough so that it can be placed but ideally not next to the main city but more in an empty space to start up a second camp/colony/base/etc. This is all for the population resource, there're more buildings to come.
I might give in and split the supplies resource into wood, stone and food, each will have buildings to increase production of these.
Both races share the same city, huts, houses and hamlets thus live amongst each other, only the military quarters are separate due to their different natures in fighting, in game they will work together due to one only being melee and one being ranged, basic raids and defence will rely on using these units together. The magic units are produced from different buildings too, Spectral Gate and Hell Portal, the Spectral Gate captures the undead for use and shadowy creatures the Hell Portal brings fourth DooM! Werewolves are shadowy themselves where as satyrs are demonic so each of them have their own ways of summoning their creatures to help out.
I'm going to look into auras or what ever you call it where a unit constantly affects others, this way I can make techniques to mix units together from the different races having one boost the other. But I will make sure the two races aren't too separated, their military buildings are the only thing that is separate which is two buildings per race (eventually three for the dragons project), housing, cities and the three supply stores will be shared. Maybe later on I could work on making guilds, these will produce a special selection of units from both races that suit a certain purpose, such as a siege guild which would produce the siege units or a raid guild for spam units and defence guild with the defence units picked out, the corresponding barracks or spire (magic unit barracks) will be needed for any units to be producible from guilds though, that's an idea but it wouldn't work on it yet, the problem is it's try to tell the play what each unit should be used for where as they can have multiple uses.
My project: Malevolent Rising
My website: [http://nephrite.zxq.net/index.html]Nephrite[/url]
"The world is round; it has no point."