Abortion

[Gabbe]

arch, i agree with you, but don`t you think of the mother as a decent human being?

[-Archmage-]

but don`t you think of the mother as a decent human being?

That depends, being a mother doesn't just instantly make you decent. Any mother that murders a baby, I think is a despicable Human. If a girl is raped and left with a child, I think she is an extraordinary Human being to let the child be born, and take care of it.

It's a crime to kill a child, but it's "a mother's right" to brutally kill a baby. That's just simply wrong.

Oh, but what if a couple didn't want to have a child? They want to have sex, but they don't want to be responsible about the consequences, they just want to call it a "mother's right", and go get it killed, so they can get on with their sex.

[xxcatmysteryxx]

That depends, being a mother doesn't just instantly make you decent. Any mother that murders a baby, I think is a despicable Human. If a girl is raped and left with a child, I think she is an extraordinary Human being to let the child be born, and take care of it.

Oh, but what if a couple didn't want to have a child? They want to have sex, but they don't want to be responsible about the consequences, they just want to call it a "mother's right", and go get it killed, so they can get on with their sex.

first off its not really murdering the baby and a mother can't be a despicable Human because THERE IS A REASON FOR IT. First off the reason why you have to be a certain age to have sex is because at that age before 18 and such no one is emotionally, physically, and socially ready to care for a child and be a parent. Teens must finish there education first and you can't because you have to stay home and take care of a baby. Also its a scientific fact that teens bf and gf do not stay together after middle school or high school. Although some do most not that common.

Most people don't understand how complicated it is to take care of a baby and how committed and responsible  you must be.

What if a little girl lets say 9 years old got raped. Its possible see can get pregnant if shes been through puberty. And she can't take care of so in that case having an abortion wouldn't really consider murder. And you can't let her have the baby and give it to adoption because theres already to many kids that need to be adopted and it would just be other lonely parent-less baby and what if that kid never gets adopted it would be lonely and grow up not like a normal kid. plus theres only limited space at orphanages if you let every teen and irresponsible parent send there baby there it would fill up like wildfire. And soon there won't be enough space to hold all of them and take care of them.

But I think in the case of two old enough and responsible couple having sex and getting pregnant and having a abortion because they just don't want to have the kid and just want to have sex that's the only time abortion is wrong... actually scratch that.... its the parents thats wrong in just having sex and not considering the risks of it

[Gabbe]

you know arch they can use condoms and prevention and such..or get streilized..not castrated but serilized, then problem solved and they can go on with their sex as much as they want...

[xxcatmysteryxx]

you know arch they can use condoms and prevention and such..or get streilized..not castrated but serilized, then problem solved and they can go on with their sex as much as they want...

Birth Control too. But also condoms and birth control can't fully prevent a pregnancy just like condoms can't prevent all sexually transmitted diseases

[Gabbe]

It is 99.95% secure against pregnancy

or they can just take some drug that makes them stop producing "hormons" idk in english, but i think it is mere same as norwegian.

ut this costs money...oh well, abortion costs more...

why do you want to mess with what the human is built by anyway...

what are we realy diguissing here?

i hardly can immagine a seedcell being a sentient being..or think like me..scientifically, it can`t..scientifically be any more conscuiss than any other cel organism, so then the question becomes that eventually it will be a thinking organism? scientifically it would be no cost at killing the cell, morally, still, all males must be cruel devils of hell because there is usually only 1-3 cells surviving of the billions released and how can it then be immoral to kill one...If religious motive then it won`t matter, cause the cell will just fly up to the sky right? and stay in heaven and enjoy itself...

[-Archmage-]

first off its not really murdering the baby

Why is that?

Definition of murder: the unlawful killing of another human being

It's considered murder to kill an innocent man, then it should be considered murder to kill an innocent baby.

a mother can't be a despicable Human because THERE IS A REASON FOR IT

Anyone can be a despicable person if they do something despicable. And, since when did anyone have a "right" to kill an innocent Human being?

First off the reason why you have to be a certain age to have sex is because at that age before 18 and such no one is emotionally, physically, and socially ready to care for a child and be a parent

That's a lie. PROOF: In the Roman Empire, 14 year old girls were married off, they did much better than American women today.

What if a little girl lets say 9 years old got raped. Its possible see can get pregnant if shes been through puberty. And she can't take care of so in that case having an abortion wouldn't really consider murder. And you can't let her have the baby and give it to adoption because theres already to many kids that need to be adopted and it would just be other lonely parent-less baby and what if that kid never gets adopted it would be lonely and grow up not like a normal kid. plus theres only limited space at orphanages if you let every teen and irresponsible parent send there baby there it would fill up like wildfire. And soon there won't be enough space to hold all of them and take care of them.

The definition of murder doesn't change for each circumstance. An innocent baby is still being murdered. It's much better to put kids up for adoption than to kill them. The possibility that they might not get adopted and have a normal life, isn't justification to kill them.

So you're basically saying that the solution to over-population is to kill people.....


If people want to have sex and they don't want a baby, they better use some form of prevention. And if by some mistake they do have a baby, too bad, put it up for adoption, or take care of it, but don't just kill it!

[Gabbe]

Arch is it murder to kill cell lifeforms?

[-Archmage-]

That depends. If it's bacteria, then my reaction would be: *machine gun fire* KILL THE SUCKER!!!

But if you're talking about cells that are going to develop into a full grown Human in 20 years, then yea that's murder.

Try being more specific.

[Gabbe]

mhm i just asked a question which is nice to know so i know your definition of "murder"

why is it murder? They aint concuis yet right?

[-Archmage-]

It's developing it's consciousness. In 20 years, that blob of cells will have grown into full grown Human, in effect killing the blob of cells would be killing a full grown Human.

[Gabbe]

yet billions of cells that could grow into a ful conscuissnes are murdered by men mastrubating or attempting to reproduce, and it is also murder use a condom?

[Omega]

[Ok, I've only read the first post and will reply to it while ignoring the rest of you guy's opinions]

Firstly, I am completely and totally PRO-LIFE. I believe that abortion should be illegal and a crime to commit, and there is nothing more EVIL than murdering an unborn infant!!!

If someone gets, say, raped, even that is not an excuse for abortion because there is still 2 conflicts. First off all in the first (24? 48?) hours, there are alternative pills that prevent the egg from growing into a baby, thus not being abortion, as it is not yet a living human being. Secondly, theres the moral conflict, does killing make it any better? I suppose adoption may end up being a hero. That's a harsh truth, and as terrible as rape is, killing will not help it.

For those who try to get an abortion because they're an IDIOT who was either having underage sex, etc or not using protection, it is THEIR OWN FAULT for that choice. THEY made a bad choice, THEY will suffer (?) for it.

I appologize if my words come across as harsh to some, but I have strong opinions of the subject.

And of course, John had an excellent thing here:

(click to show/hide)

Plus, you know somebody's bound to break out the pictures.

A little blood and gore always helps show how truly evil something is.

[ultifd]

I am against it too...for the same reasons,
but sometimes, sometimes... it is needed. Mother's choice...and/ with father.
Unfortunate, for that life, or the mother.

[Ok, I've only read the first post and will reply to it while ignoring the rest of you guy's opinions]

That's probably, good, since everyone is stating the obvious...
In fact, we can't really change our own opinions on abortions...but I guess on other topic, it is possible. 

[Gabbe]

that pic of john was a grown baby, and im having your opinion when it comes to almost-ready grown babies, thats gros and evil. I change my opinion, if you don`t want a baby don`t have sex. Oh wait, if raped, then...

You know, if someone is going for a education, then it can really screw things up, and especially if your an atheist because then you only have one life, and then that baby can be a living hell released on earth...So one get to live and the others life is ruined?

[modman]

When you scrap out a half-developed baby you aren't just ending the life of a biological life-form, you're destroying the entire future of a sentient, intelligent, and conscious being, that has a will.

Do me a favor: scratch your nose.  When you do (If you don't I will!), you have committed a murder on thousands of potential human beings.  Each cell in your body is a potential human.  So watch out: the cops might be coming after you now.

Abortion is only murder if the human being killed is a sentient, independent organism.  Obviously a fetus is not.  A fetus is only a potential person, but then again, I just demonstrated that every cell in your body is a potential person.

And having a full set of human DNA does not grant you rights as a person.

Please spare the nasty photos.  Showing them would only make this issue emotionally charged, since people generally feel a need to protect anything with large eyes and a large head-to-body ratio.  Honestly, I didn't feel the need to post mangled or beheaded corpses on the capital punishment topic.

[xxcatmysteryxx]

And having a full set of human DNA does not grant you rights as a person.

As a little baby no because you still need to grow; but as a older person thats mature then it kinda does except if its a murderer or something.... yet they have right too

[Gabbe]

Modman, your awesome, you can almost speak for me

is there a difference between these two or are both completely the same:

= +

[-Archmage-]

Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of a person.

A baby is a person, and an unborn baby , an unborn baby isn't a potential Human, it's a Human in development. Unless someone kills it or something goes wrong that unborn baby is going to be born and grow up.
Definition of potential: Existing in possibility


Modman, killing cells on my nose isn't the same. It's my body and I can scratch my nose if I want. And no, Modman, cells on my nose aren't going to develop into another Human being.

[Gabbe]

Modman, killing cells on my nose isn't the same. It's my body and I can scratch my nose if I want. And no, Modman, cells on my nose aren't going to develop into another Human being.

but masturbating is also killing right? Or even sex is murder to, cause then only 1-2 of the cells survive...Maybe this is the reason christians says masturbating and having sex more than once a year is sins...

[Omega]

Modman, killing cells on my nose isn't the same. It's my body and I can scratch my nose if I want. And no, Modman, cells on my nose aren't going to develop into another Human being.

but masturbating is also killing right? Or even sex is murder to, cause then only 1-2 of the cells survive...Maybe this is the reason christians says masturbating and having sex more than once a year is sins...

Killing a cell that is PART of a human being is not a human being itself. An infant, even in its fetus stage, is still a living human, and it is very much murder to kill it.

As for masterbation, like above, these are simply cells. They are NOT human beings. They can fertalize an egg to create a human being (the egg itself is also not a human being, thus how anti-conception pills work, by preventing the egg from attaching to the sides of the uterus, allowing it to be shed in the period).

Maybe this is the reason christians says masturbating and having sex more than once a year is sins...

Wow, no wonder you're an athiest. You have your facts all wrong. This isn't the 1600's any more (and I bet they still did "it" then more often). I've seen catholic priests quoting the wonders of sex (marital of course!).

(click to show/hide)

[Gabbe]

why post gross pics all the time? it is enough for me that you link them and atleast warn me...

When masturbating you prob kill a bunch of possible humans...

It is weird how you and arch kind of disagree because arch says

It's developing it's consciousness. In 20 years, that blob of cells will have grown into full grown Human, in effect killing the blob of cells would be killing a full grown Human.

and you say

As for masterbation, like above, these are simply cells. They are NOT human beings.

It feels weird to debate this and the topic should now have a age-limit or a warning "Omega posts bloody pictures! watch out"


so when this cell is removed with sperm cell in it, then it wil be murder? I really don`t know how to reply to any of this because it is so hard finding out what people think on the subject...

is still a living human

It can`t be alive on its own, and if the mother doesn`t want to take care of it what stops the mother then? If i make a castle of sand, people enjoy watching it, do i have the right to destroy it? Afterall i created it...[i know it was not a living thing i did create, but i just provide a example]

Or more complex, scientist can create life, prooven lately, from DNA i think, haven`t really gotten in to the subject though..
If i were a scientist and created a living cell, could i have the right to kill it? [now it is a living cell were talking about]

Same as if i were rich, and gave money to poor people, could i then take back the money if i needed it? [this example as if a girl were to have a baby that would ruin her life] lets get more down to it, if a thief stole al my money and gave it to the poor people, could i take back the money or should the poor keep it? (those not as poor as that they would starve)]

I hope i have enough examples now, but i think it is a raped persons right to abort...

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: -Archmage- on May 29, 2010, 19:19:55
It's developing it's consciousness. In 20 years, that blob of cells will have grown into full grown Human, in effect killing the blob of cells would be killing a full grown Human.

and you say
Quote
As for masterbation, like above, these are simply cells. They are NOT human beings.

Gabbe, I wasn't talking about sperm in that quote. I'm in agreement with Omega.

why post gross pics all the time? it is enough for me that you link them and atleast warn me...

Those gross pictures are simply depicting what you believe to be a mother's right.

When masturbating you prob kill a bunch of possible humans...

Are you saying you believe that sperm develop into Humans?
Because if so, you're simply wrong. All sperm is fertilize eggs.

but i think it is a raped persons right to abort...

So you think that a girl has a right take a metal implement and hack up some innocent person walking down the sidewalk, just because she got raped by some guy?

Abortion is still worse than taking a metal implement and hacking up some innocent person walking down the sidewalk, the person walking down the sidewalk can run or fight back, a baby can do neither.

If i make a castle of sand, people enjoy watching it, do i have the right to destroy it? Afterall i created it...[i know it was not a living thing i did create, but i just provide a example]

As you said, sand isn't alive! A Human being is!

Would you like me to give you an analogy using sand?

It can`t be alive on its own, and if the mother doesn`t want to take care of it what stops the mother then?

What stops the mother? Any sense of morality and compassion(which is practically what makes us who we are).

Or more complex, scientist can create life, prooven lately, from DNA i think, haven`t really gotten in to the subject though..
If i were a scientist and created a living cell, could i have the right to kill it? [now it is a living cell were talking about]

Once again you're talking about a cell, not a Human being.

Same as if i were rich, and gave money to poor people, could i then take back the money if i needed it? [this example as if a girl were to have a baby that would ruin her life] lets get more down to it, if a thief stole al my money and gave it to the poor people, could i take back the money or should the poor keep it? (those not as poor as that they would starve)]

Money isn't alive, a Human being is.

I hope i have enough examples now

I've certainly seen enough bad examples.....

[Gabbe]

Gabbe, I wasn't talking about sperm in that quote. I'm in agreement with Omega.

sorry because i misunderstood yo...

Those gross pictures are simply depicting what you believe to be a mother's right.

idk what depicting means, you mean thats what my opinion is?
But a warning could be some use...

Because if so, you're simply wrong. All sperm is fertilize eggs. Roll Eyes

yet you say that every unborn baby is a potential human...

Are you saying you believe that sperm develop into Humans?

and those egg-cells? right?

So you think that a girl has a right take a metal implement and hack up some innocent person walking down the sidewalk, just because she got raped by some guy?

Abortion is still worse than taking a metal implement and hacking up some innocent person walking down the sidewalk, the person walking down the sidewalk can run or fight back, a baby can do neither.

No i don`t think a girl has the right to take a metal implement and hack up some innocent person walking down the sidewalk just because she got raped by some guy, what i am saying is that a girl has the right to remove her baby [at the time when the baby isn`t yet a human] and kill it if she wants to do so.

The person that walks down the sidewalk is not the result of a rape, the baby is, and without the rape the baby would never exist, so what you are saying is that raping is preserving life? And then you protect rape, why don`t you go out and rape evry girl you see, after all, then you are doing us a favour when keeping life as it is...

As you said, sand isn't alive! A Human being is!

oh god..

[i know it was not a living thing i did create, but i just provide a example]

it is hard to find comparable examples, and i tried some times as you saw and i couldn`t find a good one...but you do understand what im pointing to right?

Would you like me to give you an analogy using sand?

yep ofc you can...

What stops the mother? Any sense of morality and compassion(which is practically what makes us who we are).

okay, so there isn`t really anything hindering it other than that you want to keep the baby? [your morality as a person wants to keep the baby]

Once again you're talking about a cell, not a Human being.

once again you fail to not contradict yourself, seriously, previously some named "Archmage" were talking about how a cell has the potential to become a grown human being, yeah, im talking about the same cell as you did previously.

Money isn't alive, a Human being is.

!@£#$...

i tried to find examples for f***ing h*ll!!

I've certainly seen enough bad examples.....

oh comon, you`ve certainly ignored my previous quote completely...

[i know it was not a living thing i did create, but i just provide a example]

[Gabbe]

It is probably best to explain my state in this right now so noone needs to be hacking on me contraicting myself:

I belive that abortion is a womans right to chose, but it shall not be used as a birth control device. A womans body is hers and noone elses. Nobody has the right to make her do something she does not want to, if anyone wants the baby to live on, then they can get their own baby. Her rights and choices when it comes to abortion should not be influenced by any other. Regardless any morals, a woman should have the right to choose.

I shall also state that a fetus is not yet a baby. It does not posses the criteria derived from our understanding of living human beings.