The future of humanity

[Mark]

The war in afghanistan is definitely not a conventional war.  Americans are not allowed to enter houses of civilians without certain afghan policemen with them in afghanistan, smoke screens are not allowed where they can affect civilians, and other extensive methods of civilian protection are employed.  Also, we would probably burn, cover with pesticides, or infest with parasites the poppy fields, which are a lucrative revenue generation system for the taliban.

Really, who are we to predict the future? Things change too much over time. If you tried to mention the idea of a piece of metal on wheels moving without horses (a car) to some one two hundred years ago, they'd probably laugh at you.

I seem to recall that the first locomotive was actually built in 1804, though prototypes were built as early as the 1780s... Though I could be wrong.  Also, rails have been used in mines since the 16th century, and possibly in the Hallstat region of germania and also possibly in laconia (sparta).  Of course, your point is quite valid, though one that is now trite. 

[Gabbe]

Based on our technological advance for the past 10k years, i would say we maybe can reach as far as having spaceships out of our sun-system in 5-10k years...

[Mark]

I think we will get out of our solar system in before 5,000 or 10,000 years is up.  Ummmm, is that really what you meant?  I think you mean 50-100 years.

[Psychedelic_hands]

Obviously people will be crazy/evil people but I believe everyone always can be talked out of anything, except maybe their morals/ideals. But if you show them the truth of what is happening the everyone's conclusion should be that it is bad.
Like already mentioned no one perceives themselves as bad, you've already mentioned terrorism so I'll use that as an example.
I can see the terrorist point of view, I mean can you honestly say capitalism, consumerism and the loose values( compare to Muslims ) of america are the greatest way to live ever and you should make it your moral duty to change the rest of the world like it.
I don't think you could....
And American point of view is quite obvious, they see themselves as normal people(sometimes the greatest people ever) and other people (that they barely know about) hate them, and those people culture is so different from theirs they see it as being bad.
No one is right, everyone is wrong in someway yet it can seem just.This gray area is defiantly the most difficult to define what is right. What really is needed is just a want for peace from both sides, after that they can compromise and have actual change in both countries.
I know that isn't realistic in any way.... but possible.

And like I said..... depends on the words......
Being pessimistic about peace itself makes it so it doesn't happen, it just leads to tension between people.

And about technology, you have to remember that 90% of all scientist that ever lived, are still alive today.  Technology moves at least 10 times faster than it did 500 years ago.

[Mark]

Like already mentioned no one perceives themselves as bad, you've already mentioned terrorism so I'll use that as an example.
I can see the terrorist point of view, I mean can you honestly say capitalism, consumerism and the loose values( compare to Muslims ) of america are the greatest way to live ever and you should make it your moral duty to change the rest of the world like it.
I don't think you could....

If no one perceives themselves as bad, we would have no consciences.  People may not immediately acknowledge it, but it is possible and extremely likely that the old man from Libya who bombed a plane and killed hundreds feels bad about what he has done, even if he won't say it.  (I think he did make some kind of public apology, but I probably am thinking about someone else)  You say that you can see the terrorist point of view.  Do you honestly think that blowing up girl's schools, opposing mosques, and buses, three extremely common targets, is something to sympathize with?  I can debate all day about why people do that, but it is unquestionably wrong in almost every incident it occurred.  Of course, in some cases, it is okay to do it, but rarely, just like torture is rarely justified.  They blow up the infrastructure that would enable them to join the ranks of rich, 1st world countries, and then blow up more things because they hate being poor.  I can definitely see their point of view, but it shows me that they hold other lives to be less sacred than I do. 

[John.d.h]

A lot of people do things they know are wrong.  They go to the doctor who tells them that they've got to stop stuffing their faces full of grease and high-fructose corn syrup or else it's going to kill them, but they keep on doing it anything.

[wyvern]

A lot of people do things they know are wrong.  They go to the doctor who tells them that they've got to stop stuffing their faces full of grease and high-fructose corn syrup or else it's going to kill them, but they keep on doing it anything.

Good point

[ElimiNator]

A lot of people do things they know are wrong.  They go to the doctor who tells them that they've got to stop stuffing their faces full of grease and high-fructose corn syrup or else it's going to kill them, but they keep on doing it anything.

You mean anyway?

[John.d.h]

A lot of people do things they know are wrong.  They go to the doctor who tells them that they've got to stop stuffing their faces full of grease and high-fructose corn syrup or else it's going to kill them, but they keep on doing it anything.

You mean anyway?

Yes, yes I do.

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: ElimiNator on Today at 13:08:15
Quote from: John.d.h on August 24, 2010, 22:08:45
A lot of people do things they know are wrong.  They go to the doctor who tells them that they've got to stop stuffing their faces full of grease and high-fructose corn syrup or else it's going to kill them, but they keep on doing it anything.
You mean anyway?
Yes, yes I do.

I just fixed that a second ago and then read this.

Speaking of Human health, I don't think main stream medical stuff is much good at all. Everyone else goes and get's their flu shots, while I simply live a healthy lifestyle, they get the flu anyway, but I don't.......hmmmmm......... I could say a lot more, but I want to hear what everyone else has to say on the matter. Maybe we should create a new topic, so as to not take over this one?


A final note on the morality/basis for war: History speaks for itself.

[Mark]

Speaking of Human health, I don't think main stream medical stuff is much good at all. Everyone else goes and get's their flu shots, while I simply live a healthy lifestyle, they get the flu anyway, but I don't.......hmmmmm......... I could say a lot more, but I want to hear what everyone else has to say on the matter. Maybe we should create a new topic, so as to not take over this one?

Denying the hard-earned advances of medical science (Germ theory, probiotics, antibiotics, immunization) only gets you to the age in which the average life expectancy was 30.  Does this have something to do with your conspiracy theories?     I previously thought you were homeschooled because you didn't like school, but without a flu shot you get kicked out, where I live.

[John.d.h]

Traditional medicine has a lot going for it, and so does modern medical science.  The former seems to be better when it comes to preventing sickness since it usually includes a holistic approach to a healthy lifestyle, and the majority of illnesses people get nowadays are self-inflicted or self-aggravated, like heart disease or cancer.  Of course it's possible to live a healthy lifestyle with good nutrition and exercise and still get cancer or heart disease, and some problems are genetic (like cystic fibrosis) or caused by contagion (like influenza), but a healthy lifestyle goes a long way toward treating the symptoms of a lot of these and fortifying the body for when it does get attacked.  Modern medical science in this country focuses very little on prevention.  Big pharma would probably prefer that you drink a 6-pack of Monster every day so you'd come to them for insulin, Viagra, and AllÄ«.  Why would they tell you about cancer-fighting mushrooms?  That could lose them an awful lot of money if people got their cancer under control without the help of their invasive, toxic, and/or radioactive treatments.

[wyvern]

I read somewhere that vaccines can cause brain damage, at any rate I haven't gotten shots in the past 8 years

[ElimiNator]

I read somewhere that vaccines can cause brain damage, at any rate I haven't gotten shots in the past 8 years

Me nether, and I rarely get sick.

[-Archmage-]

Denying the hard-earned advances of medical science (Germ theory, probiotics, antibiotics, immunization) only gets you to the age in which the average life expectancy was 30.

You have fun believing that.

Traditional medicine has a lot going for it, and so does modern medical science.  The former seems to be better when it comes to preventing sickness since it usually includes a holistic approach to a healthy lifestyle, and the majority of illnesses people get nowadays are self-inflicted or self-aggravated, like heart disease or cancer.  Of course it's possible to live a healthy lifestyle with good nutrition and exercise and still get cancer or heart disease, and some problems are genetic (like cystic fibrosis) or caused by contagion (like influenza), but a healthy lifestyle goes a long way toward treating the symptoms of a lot of these and fortifying the body for when it does get attacked.  Modern medical science in this country focuses very little on prevention.  Big pharma would probably prefer that you drink a 6-pack of Monster every day so you'd come to them for insulin, Viagra, and AllÄ«.  Why would they tell you about cancer-fighting mushrooms?  That could lose them an awful lot of money if people got their cancer under control without the help of their invasive, toxic, and/or radioactive treatments.

 

You're health matters to you, your pocketbook matters to your doctor.

I read somewhere that vaccines can cause brain damage, at any rate I haven't gotten shots in the past 8 years

Me nether, and I rarely get sick.

 

[Mark]

Denying the hard-earned advances of medical science (Germ theory, probiotics, antibiotics, immunization) only gets you to the age in which the average life expectancy was 30.

You have fun believing that.

Not only will I have fun, I am guaranteed to reach at least 50 years old, 95% chance.  What can your dark age conspiracies say to that?

Traditional medicine has a lot going for it, and so does modern medical science.  The former seems to be better when it comes to preventing sickness since it usually includes a holistic approach to a healthy lifestyle, and the majority of illnesses people get nowadays are self-inflicted or self-aggravated, like heart disease or cancer.  Of course it's possible to live a healthy lifestyle with good nutrition and exercise and still get cancer or heart disease, and some problems are genetic (like cystic fibrosis) or caused by contagion (like influenza), but a healthy lifestyle goes a long way toward treating the symptoms of a lot of these and fortifying the body for when it does get attacked.  Modern medical science in this country focuses very little on prevention.  Big pharma would probably prefer that you drink a 6-pack of Monster every day so you'd come to them for insulin, Viagra, and AllÄ«.  Why would they tell you about cancer-fighting mushrooms?  That could lose them an awful lot of money if people got their cancer under control without the help of their invasive, toxic, and/or radioactive treatments.

Yes, the corporations are definitely in it for the money.  There is a lot of money to be had.  Chemo for a month can cost over 30,000 dollars!

[Gabbe]

Denying the hard-earned advances of medical science (Germ theory, probiotics, antibiotics, immunization) only gets you to the age in which the average life expectancy was 30.

You have fun believing that.

http://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDMQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markville.ss.yrdsb.edu.on.ca%2Fhistory%2F16th%2FHow%2520Dark%2520were%2520the.doc&rct=j&q=Life%20expetancy%20dark%20age&ei=C7p2TPv_Lo3qONqotfoG&usg=AFQjCNG4Q-ou9x6cANxMvIMoz1lLOcEFVg&cad=rjahttp://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.answers.com%2FQ%2FWhat_was_the_life_expectancy_during_the_dark_ages&rct=j&q=Life%20expetancy%20dark%20age&ei=C7p2TPv_Lo3qONqotfoG&usg=AFQjCNGXsKO4X1qO0SHhZ_H5J52NNTEx2g&cad=rjahttp://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/05/widespread-vacc-1.php http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

Here is some links, me trying to look up both cases. Im glad we have medicine and vaccines though, they do save us from something.

smallpox?

[-Archmage-]

What can your dark age conspiracies say to that?

One question: What dark age conspiracies??

Me: I drink this(takes awhile to load) at least once a day and I workout a lot, I also eat mostly organic foods. I do not get shots. Conclusion: I'm healthy and fit.

Average American: Eat's mainly non-organic food, diet includes MSG(Monosodium Glutamate), HFCS(High Fructose Corn Syrup), Hydrogenated Oils, Artificial Colors and other bad things. Doesn't get that much exercise. Get's shots. Conclusion: Scary possibility of cancer or heart disease. Poorly fit, possibly fat.

I watch and watch as medical people blabber out bullshit and continuously ask for thousands of dollars just so someone can sit around and rot on some drugs, while I watch my Dad doing research and ordering vitamins, he's 63, and can run, bike, and play basketball. His only problem is parkinsons, which was caused by mainstream medical science.

Mainstream medical science simply DOESN'T WORK.

I am guaranteed to reach at least 50 years old, 95% chance.

Only 50? No offense but that's horrible.

Im glad we have medicine and vaccines though, they do save us from something.

smallpox?

I don't know very much about vaccines and stuff, and I would get my Dad to talk to you about that stuff, but he doesn't want to get involved in more stuff(he's busy).

[Mark]

Okay.  When I say the life expectancy in the dark ages was approximately 30, one needs to understand that most people died before the age of 15.  Little kids were susceptible to various forms of disease and were generally more malnourished than the bigger ones.  Of course, by age 15, if you were high enough in standing, you were considered to be an independent adult.  Many mothers and their babies died in childbirth.  If you were lucky enough to live past 20, you could expect to live to 40-45.

Denying the hard-earned advances of medical science (Germ theory, probiotics, antibiotics, immunization) only gets you to the age in which the average life expectancy was 30.

You have fun believing that.

http://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDMQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.markville.ss.yrdsb.edu.on.ca%2Fhistory%2F16th%2FHow%2520Dark%2520were%2520the.doc&rct=j&q=Life%20expetancy%20dark%20age&ei=C7p2TPv_Lo3qONqotfoG&usg=AFQjCNG4Q-ou9x6cANxMvIMoz1lLOcEFVg&cad=rjahttp://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.answers.com%2FQ%2FWhat_was_the_life_expectancy_during_the_dark_ages&rct=j&q=Life%20expetancy%20dark%20age&ei=C7p2TPv_Lo3qONqotfoG&usg=AFQjCNGXsKO4X1qO0SHhZ_H5J52NNTEx2g&cad=rjahttp://www.fightaging.org/archives/2005/05/widespread-vacc-1.php http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

Here is some links, me trying to look up both cases. Im glad we have medicine and vaccines though, they do save us from something.

smallpox?

What do you mean, both cases?  Anyways, I read the one about the dark ages.  I knew a lot of it already, as I am kind of a classical and medieval history buff...  it was very accurate and detailed, explaining the underlying causes for much of what occurred.  I think they got some stuff wrong about the various germanic tribes, because they assume everyone live an equine-centered life.  However, it clearly described the inner politics of such a society (clan conflict, vassalage in a basic form, alpha male dominance).  As for the next two, I have to agree with them.  
For the next one, you have got to be kidding me.  These people still think autism is caused by vaccines.  Is this really a scientific publication?  I have to agree with them about how clean water and hygiene have played roles, but they also need to acknowledge that typhoid was vaccinated against, typhoid being one of the statistical areas they claim to have studied.  Have fun trying to find a peer-reviewed, scientific medical study that supports that site.

What can your dark age conspiracies say to that?

One question: What dark age conspiracies??

Me: I drink this(takes awhile to load) at least once a day and I workout a lot, I also eat mostly organic foods. I do not get shots. Conclusion: I'm healthy and fit.

Average American: Eat's mainly non-organic food, diet includes MSG(Monosodium Glutamate), HFCS(High Fructose Corn Syrup), Hydrogenated Oils, Artificial Colors and other bad things. Doesn't get that much exercise. Get's shots. Conclusion: Scary possibility of cancer or heart disease. Poorly fit, possibly fat.

I watch and watch as medical people blabber out bullshit and continuously ask for thousands of dollars just so someone can sit around and rot on some drugs, while I watch my Dad doing research and ordering vitamins, he's 63, and can run, bike, and play basketball. His only problem is parkinsons, which was caused by mainstream medical science.

Mainstream medical science simply DOESN'T WORK.

I am guaranteed to reach at least 50 years old, 95% chance.

Only 50? No offense but that's horrible.

You are perpetuating a strawman.  I am not saying that being fit is unnecessary for good health.  People are fit in afghanistan and they still get polio, because they have no vaccines.  Why don't we have polio in America?  Vaccines.  In afghanistan, the taliban, perpetuating dark age myths, has prevented the spread of the vaccine.  As for reaching 50, you are only guaranteed to reach 50 as well, 95%.  We'll both probably reach 70, but because of medicine.  I'll probably reach 70, but because of medicine.

I don't know very much about vaccines and stuff, and I would get my Dad to talk to you about that stuff, but he doesn't want to get involved in more stuff(he's busy).

How convenient. 

[Gabbe]

Not to break it or anything, but I wanted to know, what has made humanity progress the last 2k-10k years? science? religion? evolution? wtever you have in your mind

[modman]

The main reason that Archmage, Eliminator and Wyvern don't get sick is very simple: they don't come into contact with people who have polio or measles or any other ruthless disease.  How odious!  They drink from the goblet of modern science and then spread nonsense about the poison in the cup.  Do your own research.  There is not one peer-reviewed study which will back up your claims, so basically what you have is old wives' tales.

Average American: Eat's mainly non-organic food, diet includes MSG(Monosodium Glutamate), HFCS(High Fructose Corn Syrup), Hydrogenated Oils, Artificial Colors and other bad things. Doesn't get that much exercise. Get's shots. Conclusion: Scary possibility of cancer or heart disease. Poorly fit, possibly fat.

That's irrelevant.  No doctor ever suggested that people do those things, except the shots.

His only problem is parkinsons, which was caused by mainstream medical science.

[citation needed]

I am guaranteed to reach at least 50 years old, 95% chance.

Only 50? No offense but that's horrible.

Missed the mark again, Arch.  It doesn't matter what your opinions on someone's life expectancy is.  What matters is that "mainstream medical science" (using the same processes that brought us computers, btw) has extended lifetimes and improved quality of life.  And by the way, there is no "mainstream medical science".  There is science, and there is that which is not science.  If it can make testable, reliably accurate predictions which encompass all available data, we call that science.

Im glad we have medicine and vaccines though, they do save us from something.

I don't know very much about vaccines and stuff, and I would get my Dad to talk to you about that stuff, but he doesn't want to get involved in more stuff(he's busy).

I don't care what your dad thinks.  You believe it, so it's time for you to think for yourself.  If you have no more reason to believe it than that your father believes it, you need to reconsider your position.  If you think fathers are a good measure of truth, well then Copernicus might as well have kept his mouth shut.

Not to break it or anything, but I wanted to know, what has made humanity progress the last 2k-10k years? science? religion? evolution? wtever you have in your mind

Right.  The medicine discussion needs to go elsewhere.

[ultifd]

His only problem is parkinsons, which was caused by mainstream medical science.

[citation needed]

 

[John.d.h]

You are perpetuating a strawman.  I am not saying that being fit is unnecessary for good health.

I think you're doing the same by referring to traditional medicine as "dark age beliefs", or even comparing the two.  In the dark ages they believed that if you were sick, it might be because you just have too much blood, and mercury was thought to be a cure-all.  Obviously there's a lot of alternative medicine out there that is completely bogus, and a large part of the problem is that doesn't fit into the "go to the doctor and get a shot" paradigm gets lumped together with the garbage like homeopathy.

Regarding vaccines, how many of them have been tested for long-term side effects?  How rigorously can you control the quality of a vaccine when there's a shortage and you just need to produce as much as you can as fast as you can before flu season (like last year)?  There might not be any respected peer-reviewed scientific journal that supports the "flu vaccine causes autism" idea, but how many of them have said "yes we've tested and reviewed the long-term potential side effects of this drug and deemed it to be safe"?  Sure, smallpox and polio were two things that were in dire need of a vaccine, and it's a great thing that we put those two diseases behind us, but if you're a fairly healthy individual with a decent immune system, why go out of your way to get a vaccine for something that's pretty harmless when you have no idea what the long-term effects might be?

I'm not saying that vaccination is always a bad idea, but in general it's not good to put things into your body when you don't know what they'll do, and when you don't need them in the first place.  When someone is skeptical about the safety of a drug, that can be a very good thing.  The job of the FDA is to be skeptical about the safety and effectiveness of new drugs, and it can take years for something to get approved, and still there are recalls when we find out that something slipped through the cracks and caused a lot of people to develop adverse conditions or get killed by the drug that the FDA approved.

Traditional medical science has its snake oil salesmen, and so does big pharma.  To call one a "dark age conspiracy" while holding the other up on a pedestal as the savior of mankind is ill-informed and bigoted.

[Omega]

Hmm, I don't see what this has to do with the future of humanity, unless you are trying to (somehow?) discuss future medicine. Perhaps this part of the discussion should be split into a new topic?


The way I see it, vaccine deniers need to get real. Just because you don't see the effects doesn't mean you shouldn't take them. I mean, I might end up with a flu only once every five years. Perhaps  to most people, the flu is nothing, since its only really deadly to the very old or very young, HOWEVER, what you fail to take into aspect is that if you end up passing it on to someone else, who possibly is at higher risk, you are responsible for what happens to them because you didn't get a simple (possibly even free) shot. And I can't say the same for all of you, but even if the chances are low(ish), I still don't want to end up sick.

It's time you think for more than just yourself and think a bit about others.

Also, there's the problems of some diseases which, while rare, don't care if you are active, or load up on vitamin rich drinks, or even if you are in a risk group.

You're health matters to you, your pocketbook matters to your doctor.

Now, I can't speak for all of you. I know the american health industry can be... bad, at the best, but if your doctor cares only about getting money, it's time to switch to a new doctor. Here in Sask, Canada, I don't think I've ever payed a doctor, barring that one time for a planter's wart removal (apparently its not covered), since its all covered by Provincial health care.

Finally, vaccines never were guaranteed to be 100% successful, and probably never will. However, they usually give high 90-s in the success rate, which can easily mean the difference between life and death. And of course, one also must remember that there are often many strains of diseases, such as with the Flu, when we saw how the H1N1 vaccine was rushed in, since it wasn't covered by the standard flu shot.

As for brain damage, you are FAR more likely to be killed by the flu than to get brain damage from a vaccine.

It's time you start thinking with your heads. Vaccine conspiracies are getting as bad as those who deny we landed on the moon...

[wyvern]

The main reason that Archmage, Eliminator and Wyvern don't get sick is very simple: they don't come into contact with people who have polio or measles or any other ruthless disease.  How odious!  They drink from the goblet of modern science and then spread nonsense about the poison in the cup.  Do your own research.  There is not one peer-reviewed study which will back up your claims, so basically what you have is old wives' tales.

Average American: Eat's mainly non-organic food, diet includes MSG(Monosodium Glutamate), HFCS(High Fructose Corn Syrup), Hydrogenated Oils, Artificial Colors and other bad things. Doesn't get that much exercise. Get's shots. Conclusion: Scary possibility of cancer or heart disease. Poorly fit, possibly fat.

That's irrelevant.  No doctor ever suggested that people do those things, except the shots.

His only problem is parkinsons, which was caused by mainstream medical science.

[citation needed]

I am guaranteed to reach at least 50 years old, 95% chance.

Only 50? No offense but that's horrible.

Missed the mark again, Arch.  It doesn't matter what your opinions on someone's life expectancy is.  What matters is that "mainstream medical science" (using the same processes that brought us computers, btw) has extended lifetimes and improved quality of life.  And by the way, there is no "mainstream medical science".  There is science, and there is that which is not science.  If it can make testable, reliably accurate predictions which encompass all available data, we call that science.

Im glad we have medicine and vaccines though, they do save us from something.

I don't know very much about vaccines and stuff, and I would get my Dad to talk to you about that stuff, but he doesn't want to get involved in more stuff(he's busy).

I don't care what your dad thinks.  You believe it, so it's time for you to think for yourself.  If you have no more reason to believe it than that your father believes it, you need to reconsider your position.  If you think fathers are a good measure of truth, well then Copernicus might as well have kept his mouth shut.

Not to break it or anything, but I wanted to know, what has made humanity progress the last 2k-10k years? science? religion? evolution? wtever you have in your mind

Right.  The medicine discussion needs to go elsewhere.

Vaccines contained and still occasionally contain(though its denied) lead, lead kills your brain and body.
By the way, has anyone heard of the Kombucha mushroom, its a mushroom that you grow in tea, and its supposed to be really healthy, it actually tastes good when you make it at home, I also heard it can cure cancer