New Greek faction [Updated!]

[ElimiNator]

Greek Faction

A faction based on Ancient Greece.

Download here: -Beta version-

Tech tree:


Model previews:



Screen Shot:

[-Archmage-]

Dude, this is taken.
Mark isn't going to be happy, last I knew he was working on one. I was approached for help.

Also, I really mean no offense to you when I say, I'd really rather you not do the Greeks.

But considering you're almost done, you'll not want to trash it and we all wanna see how it came, so release it!  But please call it Eliminator's Greek Faction or something.

[John.d.h]

Why are you asking for ideas if you're almost done?  I think it's a little late for that to matter.  Alternatively, why are you almost done if you don't know what you're making?  I seriously wonder about you sometimes.

[ultifd]

Ill post a tech tree and a screen shot soon

Next time, do that first.
Can't wait to see...

[ElimiNator]

First of all I saw no mentions of a Greek faction so I decided to make it.
Second I DO know what I am doing / making.
Third I want to see if you guys have some ideas that are better then mine.

[wyvern]

First of all I saw no mentions of a Greek faction so I decided to make it.
Second I DO know what I am doing / making.
Third I want to see if you guys have some ideas that are better then mine.

I think the WW1 mod was pretty novel, as are the phorin/crincillin, I must admit though I haven't yet seen anything about a greek faction, on the other hand I would prefer it to be historically accurate. Also many of us may have ideas but are too lazy, or lack the time and skills to implement them. No offense meant but why didn't you ask about peoples opinions prior to starting this project, otherwise I hope to see it soon.

[Omega]

Third I want to see if you guys have some ideas that are better then mine.

We can't give you better ideas than yours when we don't even know what yours is.

Please update your first post with a proper description and images. Having a first post that simply says "Hi, I'm making this. Any cool ideas?" is neither constructive nor tells us what your mod even is.

[Hagekura]

I think it's good to have hoplites as a basic melee unit and Spartans as advanced melee unit .


I wish you could use vanilla magic's ghost armor(coz it's armor and helm looks kinda greek hoplites's ones).
except one problem they don't have bodies inside their armor.

[Mark]

Okay.

I see that my greeks faction is out in the open.  Fine.  It is going at a very slow pace, so do what you want, Eliminator.  Just don't make one that I can't easily eclipse in awesomeness!    I am currently stuck on a lot of things, so my faction might not be released.  You can see one of my models here.  And arch, thanks for trying to tell him off, but things have changed, so it's a completely different ballgame now.

About your faction, Eliminator, try to find a good balance between historical accuracy and playability.  And remember, the spartans were beaten numerous times-by Athenian horse javilineers, by the Theban Sacred Band and theban hoplites, and by the syntagmas and hetairoi cavalrymen of macedonia.  Don't get carried away.  Only sometimes were they the best.  And they only won the pelopponesion war when the bubonic plague hit athens.  If you want a good idea, go to your library (the adult section, not the picture book section) and find the biggest, dustiest books about the pelopponesion war and Alexander the great.  You would be surprised at what you could learn.

One vital idea:  since almost all greek battles relied solely on infantry prior to 350 BC, get a new human body model.  I guarantee you will find your effort worthwhile.

[-Archmage-]

Okay.

I see that my greeks faction is out in the open.  Fine.  It is going at a very slow pace, so do what you want, Eliminator.  Just don't make one that I can't easily eclipse in awesomeness!    I am currently stuck on a lot of things, so my faction might not be released.  You can see one of my models here.  And arch, thanks for trying to tell him off, but things have changed, so it's a completely different ballgame now.

About your faction, Eliminator, try to find a good balance between historical accuracy and playability.  And remember, the spartans were beaten numerous times-by Athenian horse javilineers, by the Theban Sacred Band and theban hoplites, and by the syntagmas and hetairoi cavalrymen of macedonia.  Don't get carried away.  Only sometimes were they the best.  And they only won the pelopponesion war when the bubonic plague hit athens.  If you want a good idea, go to your library (the adult section, not the picture book section) and find the biggest, dustiest books about the pelopponesion war and Alexander the great.  You would be surprised at what you could learn.

One vital idea:  since almost all greek battles relied solely on infantry prior to 350 BC, get a new human body model.  I guarantee you will find your effort worthwhile.

Damn, I'm more than half-way through a college lecture series on Ancient Warfare, and I'm still behind you.
Don't forget that Macedon learned a lot from the Greeks. Their hoplites were just improved Spartan hoplites, which Alexander later inherited and used to kick some Persian *ss.

I wish you could use vanilla magic's ghost armor(coz it's armor and helm looks kinda greek hoplites's ones).
except one problem they don't have bodies inside their armor.

We could import the model give it a body and re-animate it.

First of all I saw no mentions of a Greek faction so I decided to make it.

True.

Second I DO know what I am doing / making.

Don't mind if I hold you to that.

Third I want to see if you guys have some ideas that are better then mine.

We can't give you better ideas than yours when we don't even know what yours is. Huh?

 

[wyvern]

Don't forget peltast spearthrowers.

[Hagekura]

I wish you could use vanilla magic's ghost armor(coz it's armor and helm looks kinda greek hoplites's ones).
except one problem they don't have bodies inside their armor.

We could import the model give it a body and re-animate it.

Wow Is it possible to convert .g3d files to .blender format and edit them?

[-Archmage-]

I wish you could use vanilla magic's ghost armor(coz it's armor and helm looks kinda greek hoplites's ones).
except one problem they don't have bodies inside their armor.

We could import the model give it a body and re-animate it.

Wow Is it possible to covert .g3d files to .blender format and edit them?

Yes.

[ElimiNator]

OK so lots of the stuff you posted I already have (So I must be fairly accurate) Ill post pics today or tomorrow.  Thanks for he feedback.

[Mark]

Damn, I'm more than half-way through a college lecture series on Ancient Warfare, and I'm still behind you.
Don't forget that Macedon learned a lot from the Greeks. Their hoplites were just improved Spartan hoplites, which Alexander later inherited and used to kick some Persian *ss.

I wish I could go to that series!  Actually, Philip II (Alexander's father) was held captive in thebes for much of his youth.  At the time, the thebans were developing longer spears and their sacred band, which eventually defeated the spartans in 372.  Philip just made 20 foot (approximately) spears, light armors, and small shields.  He used his extensive ranks of skirmishers (yes, peltasts, with archers and slingers) to soften up slow-moving enemies, and then nailed them with a block of elite, full time soldiers.  Alexander the Great even extended this, using the syntagmas to pin an enemy down, and then ram the flanks of the enemy with his powerful companion cavalry.  He even used the companions for all-out charges against the weaker enemies, such as the persians.  Even without stirrups, the companion cavalry were the best horsemen of the ancient world, and on flat ground even the romans crumbled before the macedonian spearmen.  However, the phalanxes were terrible on hills and rough terrain, which is why the romans conquered greece so quickly.

And the spartans had a completely different system-the main ranks were filled by spartan warriors, the dreadlocked (and dreaded) spartiates, with the best men on the right, who would theoretically prevail over the enemy's left, and thus flank the enemy.  Other greek cities often experimented, lacking any effective counter to the spartan phalanx.  An interesting thing to note would be that the spartans survived being conclusively beaten by the rearguard Alexander left in greece to keep peace, and the roman invasion (actually, they were aligned against the ruling greeks, who were successors of alexander, that hated prince!) only to dwindle to negligible populations over several hundred years.

The Macedonians were greeks.  They are just as Greek, culturally, as the spartans, and more so if you use athens as the grading scale.  The only reason this idea of them being separate from greece is so prevalent is that there was a massive propaganda effort on the part of the southern greeks, cities hoping to demonize the burgeoning state, not to mention a massive range of hills and mountains, separating the Macedonians from their fellow greeks.  This propaganda labeled the Macedonians as rough, uncultured barbarians (those whose speech sounds like 'bar-bar') who drank their wine undiluted.  The Macedonians did have a huskier accent of Greek, and they did have a lot of association with the true barbarians, the thracians and illyrians, who they fought out of greece on several occasions, but that doesn't matter.  Just remember, Aristotle didn't think they were too barbarian-he stayed there and taught Alexander for several years.

OK so lots of the stuff you posted I already have (So I must be fairly accurate) Ill post pics today or tomorrow.  Thanks for he feedback.

Great.  Post a techtree.  And some images of the body model you have.

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: -Archmage- on November 01, 2010, 03:18:23
Damn, I'm more than half-way through a college lecture series on Ancient Warfare, and I'm still behind you.
Don't forget that Macedon learned a lot from the Greeks. Their hoplites were just improved Spartan hoplites, which Alexander later inherited and used to kick some Persian *ss. Tongue
I wish I could go to that series!  Actually, Philip II (Alexander's father) was held captive in thebes for much of his youth.  At the time, the thebans were developing longer spears and their sacred band, which eventually defeated the spartans in 372.  Philip just made 20 foot (approximately) spears, light armors, and small shields.  He used his extensive ranks of skirmishers (yes, peltasts, with archers and slingers) to soften up slow-moving enemies, and then nailed them with a block of elite, full time soldiers.  Alexander the Great even extended this, using the syntagmas to pin an enemy down, and then ram the flanks of the enemy with his powerful companion cavalry.  He even used the companions for all-out charges against the weaker enemies, such as the persians.  Even without stirrups, the companion cavalry were the best horsemen of the ancient world, and on flat ground even the romans crumbled before the macedonian spearmen.  However, the phalanxes were terrible on hills and rough terrain, which is why the romans conquered greece so quickly.

And the spartans had a completely different system-the main ranks were filled by spartan warriors, the dreadlocked (and dreaded) spartiates, with the best men on the right, who would theoretically prevail over the enemy's left, and thus flank the enemy.  Other greek cities often experimented, lacking any effective counter to the spartan phalanx.  An interesting thing to note would be that the spartans survived being conclusively beaten by the rearguard Alexander left in greece to keep peace, and the roman invasion (actually, they were aligned against the ruling greeks, who were successors of alexander, that hated prince!) only to dwindle to negligible populations over several hundred years.

The Macedonians were greeks.  They are just as Greek, culturally, as the spartans, and more so if you use athens as the grading scale.  The only reason this idea of them being separate from greece is so prevalent is that there was a massive propaganda effort on the part of the southern greeks, cities hoping to demonize the burgeoning state, not to mention a massive range of hills and mountains, separating the Macedonians from their fellow greeks.  This propaganda labeled the Macedonians as rough, uncultured barbarians (those whose speech sounds like 'bar-bar') who drank their wine undiluted.  The Macedonians did have a huskier accent of Greek, and they did have a lot of association with the true barbarians, the thracians and illyrians, who they fought out of greece on several occasions, but that doesn't matter.  Just remember, Aristotle didn't think they were too barbarian-he stayed there and taught Alexander for several years.

Ah, I remember some of that stuff from the lecture of Alexander the Great, thanks for the details!

[ElimiNator]

OK I posted some pics on he first post.

[-Archmage-]

OK I posted some pics on he first post.

As expected this is not accurate.

Air Box: What is that?! Whatever it is it definitely doesn't belong in this mod.
Atlas: In Greek mythology he holds up the sky, there is no way you could recruit him.
Ballista: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Battering Ram: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Castle: The Greek's did not have 'castles' they had Acropolises.
Cavalry: Ancient Greece didn't use much cavalry. The Macedonians were Greek as well, but this mod is on Ancient Greece, and the Greek army was a bit different than the Macedonian.
Chariot: Read up my friend, chariots were mostly ceremonial and stuff like that, the terrain in Greece made it hard for wheeled vehicles to operate.
Dragon: Has absolutely no place in this mod.
Engineer: The Greeks did architectural engineering, not war engineering, siege was a very little part of most Greek Warfare.
Onager: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Palace: This really doesn't belong in this mod...
Worker: The Greek's didn't have 'workers'. Slaves and farmers did the work. Word for slave: doulos.

Tech Tree: It looks very identical to tech except for the Temple, and you have 4 misspellings.
Barraks --> Barracks || Calvary --> Cavalry || Ornager --> Onager || Produse --> Produce

Model Preview: Sorry but none of the models look Greek to me. The shields in the first one, have the macedonian symbol I've seen in Rome - Total War......

Please read up a bit more on the Greeks man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_warfare

No offense is intended, this is constructive criticism.

[wciow]

I have to agree with Arch, most of the units in this techtree are out of place; if it wasn't for the hoplite and peltast I would assume this was some kind of medieval faction.

On the plus side the models and textures look good, an improvment on some of your previous stuff 

[John.d.h]

You have a bad habit of crapping all over what could potentially be awesome factions by doing apparently no research into the actual people you're basing them on, and copying Tech's layout almost completely.  I hate to keep busting your balls like this, but you're wasting a lot of potential -- both the potential of these factions to be realized beautifully, and also your own potential to make something great if you actually put the time and effort into it.  Time and time again, you somehow manage to come up with something that is neither accurate nor creative, and that's sad because I know you can do better.

[Zoythrus]

You have a bad habit of crapping all over what could potentially be awesome factions by doing apparently no research into the actual people you're basing them on, and copying Tech's layout almost completely.  I hate to keep busting your balls like this, but you're wasting a lot of potential -- both the potential of these factions to be realized beautifully, and also your own potential to make something great if you actually put the time and effort into it.  Time and time again, you somehow manage to come up with something that is neither accurate nor creative, and that's sad because I know you can do better.

you're pretty much summing up nearly every faction the Vbros have made!
Im sorry guys, but i fully agree with John and Archmage on this one. you know, it is possible to have a faction with no flying units! also, the tech tree doesnt have to look exactly like the Tech's. yeah, it was a good layout, but it's not that good. they had expert infantry, so make that the main unit type. there should be an upgrade building, but it should be more than your standard attack and defense upgrades. imagine some new and cool upgrades, like enhancements to worker production speed, speed upgrades, etc.

once you fix some stuff, this faction will be awesome.

[ElimiNator]

Thanks for all the feed back,  I am willing change stuff, thats why I asked for your opinions.

Air Box: What is that?! Whatever it is it definitely doesn't belong in this mod.

I called it that for lack of a better name, In Greek mythology Pandora opened a box she wasn't suppose to and let out evil into the world, The air box sends skulls out like the tower of souls.

Atlas: In Greek mythology he holds up the sky, there is no way you could recruit him.

I think he holds up he whole world? In this mod he holds a world on his shoulders.

Ballista: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Battering Ram: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Castle: The Greek's did not have 'castles' they had Acropolises.

They did use some but if you can think of a better idea just tell me don't say "You cant have this and that with out giving me other ideas.
They didn't have castles so what should i use instead? Acropolises?

Cavalry: Ancient Greece didn't use much cavalry. The Macedonians were Greek as well, but this mod is on Ancient Greece, and the Greek army was a bit different than the Macedonian.
Chariot: Read up my friend, chariots were mostly ceremonial and stuff like that, the terrain in Greece made it hard for wheeled vehicles to operate.
Dragon: Has absolutely no place in this mod.
Engineer: The Greeks did architectural engineering, not war engineering, siege was a very little part of most Greek Warfare.
Onager: The Greeks did not do much siege warfare.
Palace: This really doesn't belong in this mod...

They did have some light cavalry if you have a better idea just say it.
The did have some chariots I like them, I think they should say.
In Greek mythology Hercules fought a dragon.
They had advanced pillars and arches so they must of had some kind of Engineers.
Onager? The did have this, better ideas?
Why? They had palaces...

Worker: The Greek's didn't have 'workers'. Slaves and farmers did the work. Word for slave: doulos.

Model Preview: Sorry but none of the models look Greek to me. The shields in the first one, have the macedonian symbol I've seen in Rome - Total War......

Cool thanks I was looking for a better worker name! 

I searched up Greek shields and that came up, got a better pic?

[Mark]

Interesting.  I wholeheartedly agree with John.  Go get those books, before I go crazy!

Call the spearthrower in the picture a peltast.  It is a good-enough model.

I'll take this piece by piece:
Air box/pandora's box- no mythology please.
Atlas-Atlas held up the celestial sphere (the sky), not the earth.  Again, no mythology.  What is the point of him holding the earth up?  Doesn't gravity do a good enough job?
Ballista-the greeks did have ballistas, called oxybeles.  Keep it, but do a good job of research.
Battering ram-also used by the greeks, though without a roof.  Just a bunch of heavily armoured guys carrying a huge tree.
Castles-athens had a castle, the acropolis being like a keep in a medieval castle.  Just make sure it doesn't look medieval
Cavalry-the greeks had cavalry-the companions, and mercenaries from the north.
Dragon-achilles fought a hydra, a many-headed serpent.
Chariots-the greeks did not use chariots.  The myceneans who live 1,000 years before them in greece did.  And they didn't look like that.
Engineer-no, columns are roman.  The greeks did not have advanced architecture.
Onager-that is roman-the greeks preferred to settle things on the battle field, and ballistas were light, powerful, and accurate enough to pick off individual soldiers at 400 feet, pinning them, armor and all, to the ground.
shields: greek shields were round.  they were usually 3 feet in diameter.
worker: doulos is good, but slave is better because no one knows what a doulos is.  Who here can even name the first 3 letters of the greek alphabet, and the letters they correspond to?  John.d.h?  Archmage101?  A few others?  Don't use such obscure wording when a word that is in english or has a cognate is possible.

Ideas: 
Tower:  make a tower with a ballista inside. 
Have enough ranged units: some archers, slingers and peltasts should make the game possible.

A big problem-- one that I ran into- the greeks fought in blocks called phalanxes.  These could be 8x8, 16x16, etc.  In glest, because units are so connected with the tiles, you can't have any formations, even blocks.  So some modder should fix this, or else the greeks will make no sense at all.  I am tentative about posting this myself because people don't work on my suggestions-I think I must have made them angry at some point... :'(

[-Archmage-]

Interesting.  I wholeheartedly agree with John.  Go get those books, before I go crazy!

Call the spearthrower in the picture a peltast.  It is a good-enough model.

I'll take this piece by piece:
Air box/pandora's box- no mythology please.
Atlas-Atlas held up the celestial sphere (the sky), not the earth.  Again, no mythology.  What is the point of him holding the earth up?  Doesn't gravity do a good enough job?
Ballista-the greeks did have ballistas, called oxybeles.  Keep it, but do a good job of research.
Battering ram-also used by the greeks, though without a roof.  Just a bunch of heavily armoured guys carrying a huge tree.
Castles-athens had a castle, the acropolis being like a keep in a medieval castle.  Just make sure it doesn't look medieval
Cavalry-the greeks had cavalry-the companions, and mercenaries from the north.
Dragon-achilles fought a hydra, a many-headed serpent.
Chariots-the greeks did not use chariots.  The myceneans who live 1,000 years before them in greece did.  And they didn't look like that.
Engineer-no, columns are roman.  The greeks did not have advanced architecture.
Onager-that is roman-the greeks preferred to settle things on the battle field, and ballistas were light, powerful, and accurate enough to pick off individual soldiers at 400 feet, pinning them, armor and all, to the ground.
shields: greek shields were round.  they were usually 3 feet in diameter.
worker: doulos is good, but slave is better because no one knows what a doulos is.  Who here can even name the first 3 letters of the greek alphabet, and the letters they correspond to?  John.d.h?  Archmage101?  A few others?  Don't use such obscure wording when a word that is in english or has a cognate is possible.

Ideas: 
Tower:  make a tower with a ballista inside. 
Have enough ranged units: some archers, slingers and peltasts should make the game possible.

A big problem-- one that I ran into- the greeks fought in blocks called phalanxes.  These could be 8x8, 16x16, etc.  In glest, because units are so connected with the tiles, you can't have any formations, even blocks.  So some modder should fix this, or else the greeks will make no sense at all.  I am tentative about posting this myself because people don't work on my suggestions-I think I must have made them angry at some point... :'(

 


Eliminator, please do quality animations this time, that's an area all your mods lack in.

[ElimiNator]

Thanks, I did look in books but couldn't find much on Greek military. So any better shield textures/designs?

And I have to keep the mythology unless I can think of other units...