New Greek faction [Updated!]

[-Archmage-]

Thanks, I did look in books but couldn't find much on Greek military. So any better shield textures/designs?

I'm too busy to look, but just keep searching around.

And I have to keep the mythology unless I can think of other units...

Since when was there a rule that you had to have a certain amount of units, just make it realistic, and however big it is, that's fine! 

[ElimiNator]

Thanks, I did look in books but couldn't find much on Greek military. So any better shield textures/designs?

I'm too busy to look, but just keep searching around.

I did look and the upside down V is what I found.

And I have to keep the mythology unless I can think of other units...

Since when was there a rule that you had to have a certain amount of units, just make it realistic, and however big it is, that's fine! 

I say a good faction has lots of units and nothings wrong with mythology...

Engineer-no, columns are roman.  The greeks did not have advanced architecture.

Look here, and here

[Gabbe]

The Greek or spartans/athenes? idk the name of those but it were a lot of "Factions within greece, they all united against the persian invasion?

http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/Wars/

EDIT: nvm..

Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes are all factions within greece

The trojan war?

Also, Hoplites were known for fighting in lines, two and two, one with a spear defended by the huge shield his sideman was holding. A group of these was called "Hoplite Phalanx". Agrianos were known fro being elite light infantry, dont ask, just google it. Aichmophoros were spearbearers by the way.

[wyvern]

Just so you know the greeks lacked much resembling a ballista until later times in the siege of syracuse all the athenians could do was build a wall around the city and hope they'd starve, second of all the acropolis was defended by a wooded palisade in the time of the persian wars, though later the had the long walls connecting athens to the port of pyraeus and so on. The chariots were only used as transport for high ranking citizens since greece is not exactly the ideal spot for cavalry combat. for ranged it should mostly be slingers, peltasts/javelineers, and some mediocre archers(the greeks lacked many archers and also the bows of the time period were extremely weak and had trouble penetrating hardened leather let alone the bronze breastplates many greek troops wore.

[ElimiNator]

Thanks guys!   Lots of cool stuff.

Edit:
So the trojan horse was Greek? I see some potential...

[Zoythrus]

Thanks guys!   Lots of cool stuff.

Edit:
So the trojan horse was Greek? I see some potential...

no, you cant have a Trojan horse as a unit, unless it was a super, mobile unit-builder. that would be cool....

[Omega]

How would the trojan horse be a unit even?? It was just used to deceive the Trojans, not at all a military unit, and there's no such thing as "stealth" in Glest...

@Columns: The greeks had columns... Just a different kind of columns.


I think you need to put a tad bit more effort into your first post. Remember, that is the very first thing that someone sees when they read the topic, and is the summary of the entire faction. It's also the decision point of whether or not to download (once a download is available, or, in this case, whether or not to even read the topic). I have passed over many mods based simply on the first post, since the first impression is the MOST IMPORTANT. The unit tech tree map looks like it was made in MS Paint or something, and overally, there's no real description, no backstory, nothing to catch a viewers eye. I hope that once you can decide on your units, you will improve on that.

[Mark]

The Greek or spartans/athenes? idk the name of those but it were a lot of "Factions within greece, they all united against the persian invasion?

Also, Hoplites were known for fighting in lines, two and two, one with a spear defended by the huge shield his sideman was holding. A group of these was called "Hoplite Phalanx". Agrianos were known fro being elite light infantry, dont ask, just google it. Aichmophoros were spearbearers by the way.

No, hoplites fought in blocks, at least 8 deep.  The entire point was to push through the enemy line, and thin enemy lines usually were easy to breach.  No, a group of these was called a phalanx.  It is redundant to say hoplite phalanx, because phalanxes were always composed of hoplites and hoplites always fought in phalanxes.  You cite a good source, but reading an actual book would do all of you good.  Books have to be verified to meet a certain level of factual correctness if they are called nonfiction, so they are always better sources.  Wikipedia is good, but it is not perfect, even when it cites its source.  Also, not all of the greeks united against the persians.  Many didn't really care, and only a few city-states-athens, sparta, thebes, thespis, and a couple others supplied troops. 

Engineer-no, columns are roman.  The greeks did not have advanced architecture.

Look here, and here

Wow, I meant to say arches, but corinthian columns are almost exclusively roman, sooooo...  Anyways, greeks did have Ionic and Doric columns. 

Just so you know the greeks lacked much resembling a ballista until later times in the siege of syracuse all the athenians could do was build a wall around the city and hope they'd starve, second of all the acropolis was defended by a wooded palisade in the time of the persian wars, though later the had the long walls connecting athens to the port of pyraeus and so on. The chariots were only used as transport for high ranking citizens since greece is not exactly the ideal spot for cavalry combat. for ranged it should mostly be slingers, peltasts/javelineers, and some mediocre archers(the greeks lacked many archers and also the bows of the time period were extremely weak and had trouble penetrating hardened leather let alone the bronze breastplates many greek troops wore.

The siege of syracuse was in 399 bc, if I am right.  Cretan and scythian archers were routinely employed as mercenaries in battle in the greek peninsula.  The acropolis of athens and that of many other cities had a high stone wall, not a palisade.  In the persian wars, the reason the acropolis fell was that all of the athenians left the city.  Athens didn't even put up a fight.  Mind you, they know they would have lost.

[Zoythrus]

I dont know if you guys watch Mythbusters, but they just proved that the Greeks could have possibly made a rapid-fire ballista. maybe an anti-infantry artillery idea?

[ElimiNator]

Thanks guys!   Lots of cool stuff.

Edit:
So the trojan horse was Greek? I see some potential...

no, you cant have a Trojan horse as a unit, unless it was a super, mobile unit-builder. that would be cool....

What do you mean? super mobile unit-builder?

[Zoythrus]

Thanks guys!   Lots of cool stuff.

Edit:
So the trojan horse was Greek? I see some potential...

no, you cant have a Trojan horse as a unit, unless it was a super, mobile unit-builder. that would be cool....

What do you mean? super mobile unit-builder?

http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/UEF_Experimental_Mobile_Factory
heres a good example of what i mean

[ElimiNator]

How could a stone horse build?

BTW: I updated the pics on the first post.

[Zoythrus]

How could a stone horse build?

BTW: I updated the pics on the first post.

i thought it was wood.

keep in mind, if a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be boring. and it would be a cool uber-unit.

[-Archmage-]

I dont know if you guys watch Mythbusters, but they just proved that the Greeks could have possibly made a rapid-fire ballista. maybe an anti-infantry artillery idea?

But somehow they never did, let's get back to reality.

Thanks guys!  Lots of cool stuff.

Edit:
So the trojan horse was Greek? I see some potential...

no, you cant have a Trojan horse as a unit, unless it was a super, mobile unit-builder. that would be cool....

What do you mean? super mobile unit-builder?

http://supcom.wikia.com/wiki/UEF_Experimental_Mobile_Factory
heres a good example of what i mean

You guys must be kidding...
The Trojan horse was a wooden structure shaped like a horse, built ONE time, for ONE purpose to deceive the Trojans. And on top of that The Trojan war is a MYTH, we don't even know if it actually happened!

keep in mind, if a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be boring

May I laugh?
If a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be amazing! Whereas, if you keep trying to flush this mod up with unrealistic(and IMHO ridiculous, no offense) units, this mod will most certainly be boring.

I'm finding that mods are getting tedious and boring. Why? Because people insist upon things that don't fit, tell themselves they have to have a certain number of units, insist upon air units, and more. I think mods like Woodsmen and Japan, are GRAND INNOVATIONS, they aren't just variations on what we already have!

[Zoythrus]

keep in mind, if a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be boring

May I laugh?
If a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be amazing! Whereas, if you keep trying to flush this mod up with unrealistic(and IMHO ridiculous, no offense) units, this mod will most certainly be boring.

I'm finding that mods are getting tedious and boring. Why? Because people insist upon things that don't fit, tell themselves they have to have a certain number of units, insist upon air units, and more. I think mods like Woodsmen and Japan, are GRAND INNOVATIONS, they aren't just variations on what we already have!

no game will be perfectly historically accurate (the best so far is the Total War Series), and this is Glest, things wont be perfect.
now, i have no problem with a ballista or something of that nature because the Greeks did use them (maybe not much, but they in fact did). just because the real Grecian army may not have use done something much does not mean they cant use it here. i think this Greek mod should be Greece with all of it's parts (such as Macedonia and the rest). that would add some variety. if we just went with the units we've talked about, we'd only have the Hoplite (and who wants one or two units?)

[-Archmage-]

keep in mind, if a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be boring

May I laugh?
If a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be amazing! Whereas, if you keep trying to flush this mod up with unrealistic(and IMHO ridiculous, no offense) units, this mod will most certainly be boring.

I'm finding that mods are getting tedious and boring. Why? Because people insist upon things that don't fit, tell themselves they have to have a certain number of units, insist upon air units, and more. I think mods like Woodsmen and Japan, are GRAND INNOVATIONS, they aren't just variations on what we already have!

no game will be perfectly historically accurate (the best so far is the Total War Series), and this is Glest, things wont be perfect.
now, i have no problem with a ballista or something of that nature because the Greeks did use them (maybe not much, but they in fact did). just because the real Grecian army may not have use done something much does not mean they cant use it here. i think this Greek mod should be Greece with all of it's parts (such as Macedonia and the rest). that would add some variety. if we just went with the units we've talked about, we'd only have the Hoplite (and who wants one or two units?)

The fact that no game will ever be perfectly accurate doesn't mean you can indulge in fantasy. The fact is that adding all these very rarely used units, cheapens the realism and defies classic Greek warfare.

The Macedonians and the Classical Greeks, may have been related, but apart from the relation they are different.

[Zoythrus]

keep in mind, if a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be boring

May I laugh?
If a game was perfectly historically accurate, it would be amazing! Whereas, if you keep trying to flush this mod up with unrealistic(and IMHO ridiculous, no offense) units, this mod will most certainly be boring.

I'm finding that mods are getting tedious and boring. Why? Because people insist upon things that don't fit, tell themselves they have to have a certain number of units, insist upon air units, and more. I think mods like Woodsmen and Japan, are GRAND INNOVATIONS, they aren't just variations on what we already have!

no game will be perfectly historically accurate (the best so far is the Total War Series), and this is Glest, things wont be perfect.
now, i have no problem with a ballista or something of that nature because the Greeks did use them (maybe not much, but they in fact did). just because the real Grecian army may not have use done something much does not mean they cant use it here. i think this Greek mod should be Greece with all of it's parts (such as Macedonia and the rest). that would add some variety. if we just went with the units we've talked about, we'd only have the Hoplite (and who wants one or two units?)

The fact that no game will ever be perfectly accurate doesn't mean you can indulge in fantasy. The fact is that adding all these very rarely used units, cheapens the realism and defies classic Greek warfare.

The Macedonians and the Classical Greeks, may have been related, but apart from the relation they are different.

im not saying we should have dragons and super-fantasy; im saying that there should be things that people would recognize as Greek. in any game i've played, Greece always has a strong cavalry and infantry. with so many games that follow this paradigm, how wrong can it be?

[John.d.h]

I agree that a historically-based faction would be great and refreshing (which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Hagekura's Japanese), but I just don't think Eliminator is the man for the job because he doesn't seem to be so interested in that.  If somebody wants to make a historically accurate ancient Greek faction, that would be awesome, but I think we're barking up the wrong tree by trying to have Eliminator make it.  It seems like historical accuracy is more of a Mark, Wyvern, and Archmage sort of thing.

[titi]

I agree that a historically-based faction would be great and refreshing (which is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Hagekura's Japanese), but I just don't think Eliminator is the man for the job because he doesn't seem to be so interested in that.  If somebody wants to make a historically accurate ancient Greek faction, that would be awesome, but I think we're barking up the wrong tree by trying to have Eliminator make it.  It seems like historical accuracy is more of a Mark, Wyvern, and Archmage sort of thing.

Beside the problem that they did not finish anything yet, or am I wrong ?

Glest is not a hitory remake tool, but a game which has to be fun to play! But especially for the norsemen, I read a lot of stuff about their mythology/history before I did this mod. and sometimes its a good idea to read theses things first.
If he would use a pink fighting frog spying green poison I would agree with your criticism but I don't really see something worse like this here.

A hint for Eliminator:
If you need some cool ideas for your mod like ideas for flying units or godlike fighters, its always a good idea to look at their mythology. Google a bit in the web and read .....

[ElimiNator]

Thanks Titi, I will. 

[John.d.h]

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear.  What I meant was that Eliminator is going to make the mods that he wants to make, in the style he wants to make them, because apparently that's what is fun for him.  I was basically say that if these guys want a historical Greek faction so bad, they can make it themselves.

For a more mythological Greek faction, in the style of Titi's Egypt for example, there are TONS of monsters and heroes in Greek myths and legends.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_legendary_creatures

[Zoythrus]

For a more mythological Greek faction, in the style of Titi's Egypt for example, there are TONS of monsters and heroes in Greek myths and legends.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_legendary_creatures

centaurs. 'nuff said!

EDIT:if you (Elim) are doing a greek mod, i would suggest a new techtree format. maybe something which has little relation to the Tech's or the Magic's. maybe make every building buildable from the start!

[wyvern]

the rapid fire ballista was called the heliopolis, this was used in the siege of rhodes I believe. And I think the walls were initially a palisade at least around athens itself.

[Mark]

the rapid fire ballista was called the heliopolis, this was used in the siege of rhodes I believe. And I think the walls were initially a palisade at least around athens itself.

I vaguely remember it as a huge siege tower with ballista inside... but the name itself means sun-city, and it is in egypt.

I dont know if you guys watch Mythbusters, but they just proved that the Greeks could have possibly made a rapid-fire ballista. maybe an anti-infantry artillery idea?

TV also proved a pirate can beat a knight in a swordfight.  I think you mean the polybolos, and the time frame people are looking at here is too early to use it, and the romans used it more.

Yes, maybe it would be best to do mythology.  If you do, maybe you should have heroes, like achilles and odysseus.

[Zoythrus]

personally, i dont care what is made, i just have three requirements:

no spelling errors
a different feel than the standard Vbros factions
and i want the faction to be respectable