GAE and MegaGlest Differences

[Conzar]

Greetings.  I am new to the Glest community so I would first like to say thank you to all of the great work everyone has done so far.  Its truely awesome to be able to play a Free Software RTS as cool and fun as Glest!

Anyways, I found the Glest IN SPACE mod and am now working on this project with the lead developer.  This mod is based on the MegaGlest Fork.  I read through the wiki on both GAE and MG and am not clear what is different between the two projects.

Could someone break it down for me?

Also, new features in GAE like cloak and teleport, can they be added to MG?  Or can features in MG (like the global server) be added to GAE?

Thanks for your help and looking forward to working on Glest!

[ultifd]

Hi, welcome!

Basically for now, GAE is if you want a lot of features (and others that will eventually be stabilized, I hear some are still buggy) and if you don't really care for multiplayer
MG is basically if you want multiplayer... and some other features that I can't list right now. (and maybe some other interesting features that MG has).

Also, new features in GAE like cloak and teleport, can they be added to MG?

Can they? Probably. Will they? Not for now... I've seen the dev(s) of GAE and MG talking about implementing GAE's features, but MG's devs says that GAE has a lot of good features like these, but they are actually still buggy.

Or can features in MG (like the global server) be added to GAE?

Not sure if they can...but if they can, it would be very hard.

Can't wait for a update of the Glest IN SPACE mod.  

edit: fixed statement, I had mixed it up with my mg statement

[Omega]

To put simply, gameplay and feature-wise, GAE is the best. It has many features Standard Glest and Mega Glest do not have, and, at the moment, supports all MegaGlest only functions, barring some of their Lua and the loading screen images, which are not necessary for gameplay. It also has smoother controls, a new UI, and for modders, tons and tons of features they can utilize for their mods, and only by playing a mod made for GAE (such as Military) will you fully be able to see those features. It also has some gameplay enhancements that work for all factions such as auto repair and auto return (after attacking), as well as the ability to save your game. Scenarios can also do a lot more in GAE, though again, you need a scenario that specifically uses GAE only features (such as Military's scenarios).

Multiplayer wise, MG is the best. It has a master server, which makes multiplayer far easier, and you'll be unlikely to find someone to play multiplayer with in GAE or Vanilla Glest now. MG does have some features Vanilla glest doesn't have, such as Unit Particle effects, but these are not engine unique, as GAE also supports these.

Both engines have had their share of bugs, though MG tends to be stabler than GAE, since it doesn't impliment so many new beta features. But, on the other hand, those cutting edge features is what shapes Glest and makes it the ideal platform for some more recent mods, which aim to give new elements of gameplay that MG/Vanilla Glest cannot deliver.

Personally, I recommend you start with GAE, then take a look at MG later for some multiplayer. Nothing against MG, but I prefer to use GAE for all my playing except multiplayer, but that's just me, and I'm biased since most of my Glest work is on a GAE only mod (and I'm a sucker for new features).

[John.d.h]

This list is going to be sorely lacking, but here's what comes to mind right off the top of my head.

Common features of MG and GAE that aren't in Glest 3.2.2:

• Command queuing -- give a unit a command, then hold down shift while giving the unit another command, and the unit will execute both commands in the order they were given.
• Right-click for gathering points
• Loads only the factions being used, instead of the entire tech tree (for example, if you're playing only Magic vs. Magic, Tech will not be loaded)
• New texture formats (reduces file size)
• Unit particle effects -- MG generally gets these first and then they're ported over to GAE, so there's usually a short delay
• You can rotate buildings while placing them
• Units can morph between land and air
• Various bug fixes
• Raised the number of players possible on a map

Things MG has that GAE doesn't:

• Master server
• Easier to set up multiplayer games
• Larger multiplayer community -- You can often find people to play with on IRC (#glest on freenode)
• JPG textures (reduces file size even more)
• Assorted aesthetic tweaks

Things GAE has that MG doesn't:

• Improved pathfinder
• The ability to save games
• Teleportation
• Loading units into other units (i.e. transports)
• Extra effects for attack skills
• Emanations (a constant effect that affects units within an area)
• Water travel
• Stealth/cloaking
• Units can "buy" resources
• Auto-repair
• Toggleable auto-attack and auto-flee
• Clickable resources
• PhysFS -- makes it much easier to install add-ons, and they can be compressed to save space
• In-game Lua console
• Enhanced debugging
• In-game widgets can be moved around
• Selection size is bigger (24 instead of 16 units)
• Guard and patrol commands

If I were to make a broad, sweeping generalization, I'd say MG is geared more toward the multiplayer community while GAE offers tons of new features to expand what is possible gameplay-wise.

Also, new features in GAE like cloak and teleport, can they be added to MG?  Or can features in MG (like the global server) be added to GAE?

They do share features back-and-forth between each other, so it's possible, but the latter seems more likely than the former.

Edit: This is a very common question, so maybe we should either sticky this or put a link to it in the FAQ.

[Conzar]

Thank you all for such rapid responses!  We will take these into consideration.  It seems like we would like features from both for GIS.  GIS's direction is moving toward a more competitive game (think e-sports).  So from the list that John.d.h posted:

Features from MG needed
* Master Server

Features from GAE needed
* Teleportation
* Transports
* Emanations
* Stealth/cloaking
* Auto-repair
* Guard/Patrol

Does it make sense to continue using MG (its what GIS uses at this point) and add the GAE features considering that Multiplayer is the most important aspect?  I'm also thinking I will need to do a custom build anyways because there are some new features that I will need to add anyways?

Thanks

[ultifd]

To put simply, gameplay and feature-wise, GAE is the best.

Gameplay wise? Not really... Feature-wise, of course. But now I don't think it's so good...from what I heard from Silnarm and Softcoder, it's more buggy than MG now. Not sure, depends. I wonder...I wish GAE had a community too...

Does it make sense to continue using MG (its what GIS uses at this point) and add the GAE features considering that Multiplayer is the most important aspect?  

IMO, it is, especially if its about multiplayer. There's a bigger chance that features will be added to MG, than GAE's multiplayer being improved... Eventually when MG finishes stabilizing its own little things,adding built in IRC, adding its mod/faction mangager (+ etc) and when  some specific features of GAE aren't buggy, they'll probably will be implemented. MG actually has a good number of new features too, but I'm not sure if they're documented yet/if we have a list of them.

[John.d.h]

There's a bigger chance that features will be added to MG, than GAE's multiplayer being improved.

I tend to disagree.  The amount of work that has been put into GAE's features (and especially the foundation that props up those features) is immense, and so many things have been refactored that I don't think you can really take many of these things and transplant them to MG without rewriting massive amounts of code.  They'd probably have to be redone almost from scratch.  From what I know, the kind of things that have been added to MG are rather shallow changes, so dropping them into another engine isn't as big a deal.  We've already seen that a good number of MG's features have already been ported over to GAE successfully, but trying to put GAE's pathfinder into MG was a mess and didn't work out so well.

Note: I just mean some, some, of GAE's features are buggy. Just a bit more than MG...

If you're finding all these bugs, I'm sure the team would love to see some bug reports instead of people just griping that it's unstable.  If you want bugs to get squashed, report them.

[Psychedelic_hands]

Note: I just mean some, some, of GAE's features are buggy. Just a bit more than MG...

If you're finding all these bugs, I'm sure the team would love to see some bug reports instead of people just griping that it's unstable.  If you want bugs to get squashed, report them.

I agree a lot with this. Honestly, GAE isn't as buggy as people say. I mean, the amount of new features they implement every month is amazing. There is obviously going to be many bugs.
Silnarm and the GAE team do an awesome job, I think more praise should be given to them. You even noted yourself ultifd, that GAE doesn't have much  of a community, with that they will miss a lot of bugs. I try to report when ever I notice something, but honestly not much goes wrong for me  

[claymore]

MegaGlest all the way, for a playable game.

Many of GAE's new features are arguably just to appease the modders (teleportation, cloaking, lua console...) and do little to enhance gameplay. In fact, some of them even hurt gameplay. "Auto-repair", and automatically assigning tasks to idle workers are more a nuisance than anything else. There are some things that just shouldn't be automated.

Anyway, the above lists omit some important MG features.

• Visual attack warnings (svn, recently copied by GAE I think)
• Fog of war can be set to 3 possible levels (svn)
• Per team resource multipliers (svn)
• Map and faction previews
• Megapack mod (which GAE doesn't include for some reason?)
• Colourised chat and player names
• Per faction loading screens
• Texture compression
• Observer mode
• Many new maps and tilesets
• Those were just a handful off the top of my head, and still a much fuller list than John's funnily enough... look at http://megaglest.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/megaglest/?view=log , the MG folks work just as hard

It's a shame MG and GAE will never combine efforts in a single project, because the GAE guys are very talented and have implemented some cool features. But to me, GAE is more of a testbed for engine features than a playable game.

And I'm not sure what GAE people have against the Megapack, which MG includes out the box (and is worth choosing for this reason alone). That and vastly superior multiplayer make the choice pretty simple for me.  ;D

[ultifd]

@johndh and hands: HA, of course if I found any bugs I would report them...but it's eliminator, tiger, softcoder, etc who found them... hopefully when they're finished testing for some MG things, softcoder will let them report it...softcoder is too busy himself. (and Silnarm confirmed the problems himself)

BTW, built in IRC is now implemented.   @freenode megaglest-lobby

"Auto-repair", and automatically assigning tasks to idle workers are more a nuisance than anything else. There are some things that just shouldn't be automated.

As I always  have thought, it would be nice if it was implemented but then it would HAVE TO BE OPTIONABLE.

[Omega]

Many of GAE's new features are arguably just to appease the modders (teleportation, cloaking, lua console...) and do little to enhance gameplay. In fact, some of them even hurt gameplay. "Auto-repair", and automatically assigning tasks to idle workers are more a nuisance than anything else. There are some things that just shouldn't be automated.

Hardly. GAE has more advanced controls and more camera control. Auto returning and auto repair is extremely helpful, and if you don't like it, just toggle it off instead of dissing it... It can also be turned off permanently in the INI.

Anyway, the above lists omit some important MG features.

• Megapack mod (which GAE doesn't include for some reason?)
• Colourised chat and player names
• Per faction loading screens
• Texture compression
• Many new maps and tilesets
• Visual attack warnings

The first isn't a feature, its a mod. It's like how Military isn't a feature for GAE, it's a mod that utilizes its abilities. I should hope that GAE will never include the megapack, as its too darn big! Downloading that every release would be a waste. GAE has the second, and was the first to do so. GAE will be doing the third in an upcoming release, and JPG support as well. New maps and tilesets aren't a feature! They are just mods. GAE doesn't come bundled with them so you can add them yourself, instead of boggling down your download. It's like how blender doesn't come with documentation or examples, and is a GOOD thing. The last was indeed copied from GAE, but they have the head start of unit sighted warnings.

But to me, GAE is more of a testbed for engine features than a playable game.

Please play Military, Mrising, and Constellus. You're missing out on a lot.

[ultifd]

Different opinions, different opinions... just wait till 3.4.0 gets released. 

[claymore]

The first isn't a feature, its a mod.

I mean including it out the box is a feature... if you're going to play multiplayer, then everyone needs to have it. Same goes for maps and tilesets (which are relatively small anyway). For that reason, the comparison with Blender isn't really appropriate.

I should hope that GAE will never include the megapack, as its too darn big! Downloading that every release would be a waste.

Well, softcoder usually provides an update package for that reason . No need to redownload the whole megapack with each update.

I'm aware GAE also has one or two of these listed features, and possibly before MG. I thought GAE already had per faction loading screens, guess I'm wrong on that one. Was just one or two things off the top off my head anyway. I didn't feel like poring over the massive changelog.

To put simply, gameplay and feature-wise, GAE is the best.

I hope you're not serious when you make a statement like that. Subjective in the extreme!  

[Omega]

To put simply, gameplay and feature-wise, GAE is the best.

I hope you're not serious when you make a statement like that. Subjective in the extreme! 

You're only reading half of my post!

Multiplayer wise, MG is the best.

Bear in mind that you need a GAE mod in order to see GAE to its fullest. Just like how MegaGlest seems to just be glest with a master server unless you play a mod that takes advantage of its new features.

[ultifd]

Well Omega, I don't think you have experienced all of MG.   I don't think you even played a great multiplayer game. Even if your connection isn't great (I think it's the same as mines/a bit better...)...you should before talking. Then you'll probably say something different about MG's features...Just sayin'.
and I think at least some people that favor MG have tried GAE and its features...  

BTW, I'm just saying...not trying to attacking anyone...

I favor MG, but I also like GAE too. I just don't play GAE as much because I spend most of my time playing multiplayer games or testing them...

[Omega]

Naw, your connection puts mine to shame. I entered the IRC the other day to discuss some developement for Military, and my net kicked me twice in the process, requiring me to leave and re-enter to even be able to fix that..... in game, you can't re-enter (can you?)

Therefore, my opinion is mostly biased on the single player aspects of the game.

[ultifd]

Oh... I think you said once that you had a 1 MB connection, which is faster than mines a little bit. It seems that my network is better in quality terms... maybe it's time to switch? Is your network always like this...What network are  you using?
Hmm...if only you were in the US. There's a promotion for Comcast for 3 MB 19.99 a month. But then you have to get your own modem or rent one for 5 bucks... Not sure if I should try that.

Therefore, my opinion is mostly biased on the single player aspects of the game. 

Well until you can have a nice multiplayer game (that is where everything MG has is based on...) that's is just very sad...    at least the holidays are near.  I don't think your opinion can ever be "right" or justified then...  :'(

Also @thread sorry for OT 

[John.d.h]

Many of GAE's new features are arguably just to appease the modders (teleportation, cloaking, lua console...) and do little to enhance gameplay.

You've gotta be kidding.  These are some of the only things I've seen so far that do enhance gameplay, by making it possible to do more things.  Without them, every unit is just a different combination of HP, attack-strength, etc., but they don't actually do anything different.  If one of your units can stun enemies and another can teleport, etc., then this adds near-limitless strategy and depth to the game if utilized properly.

In fact, some of them even hurt gameplay. "Auto-repair", and automatically assigning tasks to idle workers are more a nuisance than anything else. There are some things that just shouldn't be automated.

How does auto-repair hurt gameplay?  By making it less tedious, or by making it make more sense?  If you prefer that your oh-so-capable repairmen just stand around stupidly with nothing to do while the building next to them is on fire, then turn it off.

Anyway, the above lists omit some important MG features.

Thanks, I knew I'd missed a bunch.

It's a shame MG and GAE will never combine efforts in a single project, because the GAE guys are very talented and have implemented some cool features. But to me, GAE is more of a testbed for engine features than a playable game.

... that's why it's called Glest Advanced Engine, not Glest Advanced Game.  So yes, you're right about this one.  This is why we have people working on mods to turn it into a complete game.

And I'm not sure what GAE people have against the Megapack, which MG includes out the box (and is worth choosing for this reason alone).

Because it's huge and not that great.

[ultifd]

How does auto-repair hurt gameplay?  By making it less tedious, or by making it make more sense?  If you prefer that your oh-so-capable repairmen just stand around stupidly with nothing to do while the building next to them is on fire, then turn it off.

Nah, it's about work basically... some people like to do it themselves...and maybe other reasons. Personally, I'm   ...but I do think it would be useful when your base is getting expanded.

[John.d.h]

I think things are getting a little out of hand here, my posts included.

[ultifd]

Yeah, sorry if any of my statements were overboard or not true...not sure if I made any though.
Let's just enjoy the holidays...and GAE/MG 

[titi]

Sorry I have to say something to this too:

Just wanted to mention the MG attack warning has NOTHING to do with the GAE attack warning( if there is one ) and I didn't even looked at their code. I don't look at GAE because I make MG. I sometimes talk to silnarm about common problems in GAE/MG thats all ...
Everyone speaks about the great features GAE has, but in my opinion many of them are completly useless at the moment Many are not really used by any kind of existing data at least not in a well composed fun to play way. And I think some of them are more a cool idea than a real benefit for fun gameplay. Additionally some( in fact some more ) of the features are not used the correct way by the AI and you cannot really play multiplayer at the moment. So how do you want to play with them? Basically they are a great toy in theory. I sometimes have the feeling that they were only made to discuss them here in the forum.
Beside of this there are indeed some good ideas in GAE but hopefully good ideas will come to MG too :-D .

In my opinion the GAE team completly underestimates the effort that will be needed to get crossplatform working one day! Every tiny little bug takes days if not weeks to find it with the support of many testers! And with all the new added and not really used features there might be some more potential bugs of this kind in GAE at the moment. We learned that there were (and sadly still are sometimes) many little problems who will never affect any singleplayer game in any way. But when it comes to crossplatform suddenly all these things have a big effect and give you really strange behaviour resulting in out of syncs. To make it that stable that you can play a 1 hour game with 4 players without getting into trouble is endless, really endless work (not only for coders!). In my opinion much more work than was needed to add all the current features.
But maybe I am wrong ....

[ultifd]

In my opinion the GAE team underestimates the effort that will be needed to get crossplatform working one day!

^Semi

But, I wish them good luck when they work on that, or possibly Hailstone is working on it now...
Would be pretty cool if they could get stable multiplayer, of course it would require a lot of work/they would need testers...