Author Topic: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?  (Read 5022 times)

titi

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What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« on: 13 February 2011, 23:23:49 »
Which features do you miss the most in MG?
Please tell us which features you really use!  ( Not all the stories about cool things you maybe can do there but noone does )
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Omega

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #1 on: 14 February 2011, 02:41:47 »
What one feature do I miss the most? The merger of the two engines so we can have lots of people work unified, in the spirit Glest was originally created in...

And if that doesn't work, how about at least getting the elements that don't require a change to the faction first, such as auto repair, auto return (after attacking), and loading and saving games? Though, I still like my first idea the best... :thumbup:
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will

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #2 on: 14 February 2011, 06:32:58 »
The reason I like playing with the GAE UI are the simple usability things such as patrolling and so on - the AoE-isms.

A general parity with AoE2 control - patrolling, garrisoning, defensive posture so not wandering off when attacked, and then waypoints and so on, that's greasing the wheels for Glest and normal everyday games and factions.

And both engines really need to roll out bump mapping asap ;)

Personally, I'd like the engines to merge into a single GIT repository, with MG and GAE being branches (without comment on which is stable or otherwise; I don't think it's truly in those terms).  It worries me that there is any kind of race to develop and diverge otherwise.

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #3 on: 14 February 2011, 10:51:51 »
What one feature do I miss the most? The merger of the two engines so we can have lots of people work unified, in the spirit Glest was originally created in...
Woah man, this sounds so nice.
But if things go the way, they're most likely to go; which is otherwise...... Then the these would be my main wishes for MG:

*New smooth, more professional GUI.- I've seen a few old VG reviews, and the GUI is one thing that they'll seemed to hate... GAE's works very nicely, and should be nicer once the widgets are sizable.
*Cleaner menus!- No offense, but the GAE menu puts mg to shame.... Going from GAE to MG you really feel it.
*The Add-ons folder!- It's pretty awesome, maybe that way everyone won't have to download the mega-pack every-time.
*Water units- I'd just like to see the mega-pack with boats really....
*The new GAE shaders!- glest will be looking so much nicer once these are in. Normal maps and a few others are already in GAE, but the plan is to have specular, glow maps as well.

I mean.... It's pretty hard to choose features... but if I guess these are what I'd try first if I was trying to implement things... which is as much useless advice as I can give.
(but again, a merger would be  :thumbup:)

titi

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #4 on: 14 February 2011, 13:36:14 »
intermediate comments:

What I think is useful:
- load/save yes thats needed, but some work.... ( is really an exact state saved in GAE ?  with positions of every particle on the screen and so on ? Or just a similar state which basically represents it? )
- Water units yes, but I still see some trouble with the AI here for real boat usage :-/. But at least you can add units which are "amphibious" which I think will be handled fine.

Things I don't fully understand:
"control - patrolling, garrisoning, defensive posture"
I don't know AOE so its hard to tell what you talk about here. But I think softcoders sons already demanded some of these features , so I am shure they will be there soon  ;D .
But especially for the "defensive posture" what does this mean? Is this not "hold position" ?

General Comments:
- Autorepair is something I ( and many others ) don't like, because it kills the gameplay! Quite possible is a repair skill which then automatically repairs!

Just my personal feelings about the GAE menus / GUI:
I really don't like them! It looks like the menu of a modern tron like techno shooter. (same with the choosen fonts)
Their technical solution is better yes! But the current look is simply awful and does not fit in any way to glests medieval looking factions ( in my opinion !! ). 

- Graphics features are always something that should be improved. Although I am not so shure if things like bumb maps will be really visible so much!
Other things like a new terrain texturing system using shaders will give us a lot more benefit than these. So some of the very good looking graphical features known form FPS games are often not so important in RTS games!
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will

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #5 on: 14 February 2011, 14:04:04 »
bump maps for stonework on buildings give a much enhanced feeling of solidness as the camera moves.  It swaps textures for vertices and is a good thing.  It is a big deal ;)

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #6 on: 14 February 2011, 14:16:48 »
What one feature do I miss the most? The merger of the two engines so we can have lots of people work unified, in the spirit Glest was originally created in...

i would give nearly anything for this^

about auto-repair and the "defensive posture," Titi, all new RTS's have these. i love auto-repair because it's realistic - if your house had a small fire (that could easily be put out), would you just sit there and watch it burn? and the Defensive stance is like Hold position and Fire at will together - units will stay in one area, and will only follow an enemy unit for a short distance (Because i hate it when my units are picked off one by one, and they dont do anything!)

titi

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #7 on: 14 February 2011, 15:23:28 »
autorepair: You said "if your house would burn you would also repair it". Thats true, and if you would need gold you would go and get some and so on... But thats what the AI player does! Thats the main part of playing such a game you give the orders not the machine. As I said a repair mode like the attack mode where you give a shaman for example an order to repair and he will continue repairing all things in his range after this is ok. But letting a shamen automatically start repairing is a bad idea! I don't want to see my shamens killed because the run automatically into a fight just because one beehive in front of my barrier is burning! You must have bigger influence on what they do, just "auto" is too simple.

"defensive posture" sounds like a good idea. how is it controlled? Another skill button?

@will: I hardly see if a house has a nice or a not so nice stonewall, because its so small regarding it with the default zoom. But maybe I am wrong. In general I cannot imagine that it is very complicated to introduce this deature ( if you know a bit more about opengl than me ). The main work will be creating these bumb maps ....

update:  I missed the "Add-ons folder" feature. What is it? the same as myData in MG ( beside .zip support )?
« Last Edit: 14 February 2011, 15:30:04 by titi »
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Omega

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #8 on: 14 February 2011, 15:42:49 »
update:  I missed the "Add-ons folder" feature. What is it? the same as myData in MG ( beside .zip support )?
zip AND 7z support. Thus, smaller filesize, and far easier to install. No worries about folder structure, just download and put in the addons folder. Don't even need to know how to extract a file. :)

@Autorepair: It's frigging toggleable!!! If you hate it that bad, make it false by default...

( is really an exact state saved in GAE ?  with positions of every particle on the screen and so on ? Or just a similar state which basically represents it? )
It just saves unit positions, info, commands, etc. No particles

( Autorepair is something I ( and many others ) don't like, because it kills the gameplay!
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titi

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #9 on: 14 February 2011, 15:54:06 »
okok lets skip the autorepair a bit for the moment, I will look at it ....

For 7zip/zip support: I don't know why it is like this, but especially windows takes ages to load games already now without zipped folders. Is this getting more worse with zip support? In multiplayer I often sit there and wait more than a minute waiting for those windows guys loading their games. Beside of this its indeed a great thing and will give us the possibility of a lot more features too ;-D
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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #10 on: 14 February 2011, 17:31:09 »
I also wonder what memory and CPU overhead zip and 7-zip introduce.

It sure could be nice for file distribution where the servers' upstream and the clients' downstream bandwidth matters. On the contrary, file sizes on the HDD do not or hardly matter at all. Ready-made packages (which would have to be produced somehow, probably by mod developers), would improve ease of use / rule out some human error, though.

Regarding auto-repair, I'm between the chairs, can find valid arguments for both points of view. Making it an option which defaults to 'off' is surely not worse than no implementation - besides of the work involved in doing it.

Save/Restore games is a regularly asked for feature. I added a hint on it to MegaGlest's FAQ the other day.

A nicer technical solution for the menus would surely be appreciated by total conversion mods - and the current look and feel could be kept with under the hood changes.

Opt-in graphical improvements would be nice to have on the short run, and, to me, seem like a must have in the longer term.
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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #11 on: 14 February 2011, 17:35:38 »
I would like:
Patrol
Guard
Loading and saving games
 :)
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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #12 on: 14 February 2011, 18:43:02 »
You're missing the biggest part of the addons folder! :)  With PhysFS, GAE loads whatever is in the addons folder along with everything in the default directory, giving preference to the addons.  So, if you want to change something about a faction, you just include the modified files in an addon and it will use the rest of the regular directory with that one modification.  So for example, if you wanted to add the Japanese faction to Magitech, you don't have to copy the whole Magitech directory into addons.  You just put the Japanese faction into addons and it will be included automatically at run time.  In fact, an addon can overrule anything in the main data directory, including not only factions, tilesets, and maps, but also the menu models, team color textures, and (I believe) language files and fonts.

So, the big thing isn't just the compression, but the ease of adding a faction, tech tree, tile set, or map pack.  It's much easier to tell a player "put this file in your addons folder and that's all" than it is to say "copy X here, put Y there, extract Z..."  The old and complicated way might not seem bad to those of us who are comfortable with the file structure and rummaging through the directories, but I think the average player doesn't want to deal with this.  PhysFS also supports links in Linux, so I've actually got it linked to my working directory for Solunar, which is in my Dropbox folder.

For 7zip/zip support: I don't know why it is like this, but especially windows takes ages to load games already now without zipped folders. Is this getting more worse with zip support? In multiplayer I often sit there and wait more than a minute waiting for those windows guys loading their games. Beside of this its indeed a great thing and will give us the possibility of a lot more features too ;-D
I also wonder what memory and CPU overhead zip and 7-zip introduce.
I haven't noticed any significant difference in game speed or load time with Linux.  Maybe it's different on Windows or something, but I have no way of knowing.

Quote
Ready-made packages (which would have to be produced somehow, probably by mod developers), would improve ease of use / rule out some human error, though.
Yes, it's actually quite easy.  The modder just has to respect the particular file structure.  The player can already "just drop it in" with Constellus, for example.

Quote
Regarding auto-repair, I'm between the chairs, can find valid arguments for both points of view. Making it an option which defaults to 'off' is surely not worse than no implementation - besides of the work involved in doing it.
In GAE, it can be disabled globally in the *.ini file, and can also be toggled on a per-unit basis.

I hardly see if a house has a nice or a not so nice stonewall, because its so small regarding it with the default zoom. But maybe I am wrong. In general I cannot imagine that it is very complicated to introduce this deature ( if you know a bit more about opengl than me ). The main work will be creating these bumb maps ....
In GAE's version of Magitech, the bump maps are used on the Castle and Mage Tower, and they do make a noticeable difference to me.  Of course, I don't think anyone cares to put bump maps on Pigs. ;)

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #13 on: 14 February 2011, 19:36:46 »
The "overwrite" feature is not as good as you might think!
Of course it might be cool for modders, but in real life regarding multiplayer, it gives you so many problems that I really don't want this!
If one player has an extensions and the other one not it will no longer be compatible! I don't want to care about the resulting trouble!
In fact I don't really want the normal player to extend one of its factions/tilesets whatever. The way o do it save is copy and extend!

global settings regarding the autorepair feature is also a very bad idea regarding multiplayer! I still think its best to switch this on/off unit specific with a special skill.

There is a release of GAE using bumbmaps? I didn't saw something like this! As your code is secret now you maybe can show us a screenshot at least  :O
« Last Edit: 14 February 2011, 19:39:15 by titi »
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Zoythrus

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #14 on: 14 February 2011, 20:03:01 »
What else would i like in MG? look at everything that GAE can do, i want all of that!

will

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #15 on: 14 February 2011, 20:35:23 »
Titi, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The addons folder is not perfect and I have made suggestions myself in GAE threads about it.  But the problem of versions you cite is that really only the map comes over the network when a player doesn't have it.  What is needed is that the engine can sync all the game files and so on.

The same regards the UI.  You can adopt the GAE UI but if it isn't themeable make it themeable (9-patch is the classic approach).

The best thing is to merge with GAE so that GAE gets back all these improvements you might make.  Its synergy.

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #16 on: 14 February 2011, 21:02:33 »
The "overwrite" feature is not as good as you might think!
Of course it might be cool for modders, but in real life regarding multiplayer, it gives you so many problems that I really don't want this!
If one player has an extensions and the other one not it will no longer be compatible! I don't want to care about the resulting trouble!
In fact I don't really want the normal player to extend one of its factions/tilesets whatever. The way o do it save is copy and extend!
Then simply don't load any addons during multiplayer unless everybody involved has the same installed.  For clarity's sake, it doesn't rewrite anything on the disk; it only behaves as if it did at runtime.

For example, if I have the basic Megapack+Japanese+Elves+Undead, and you have Megapack+Japanese+Vbros+Undead, then load only what we have in common -- Megapack+Japanese+Undead.  This makes it a lot easier than it is with everyone having ten different versions of Megapack and/or Magitech and hoping that they have one that matches.

The best thing is to merge with GAE so that GAE gets back all these improvements you might make.  Its synergy.
At this point, I feel like the way for GAE and MG to get merged is for the people who want it, to do it themselves (or at least "get the ball rolling" and then the devs might be more inclined to pitch in). :-\
« Last Edit: 14 February 2011, 21:09:25 by John.d.h »

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #17 on: 14 February 2011, 23:04:39 »
1.)Guard and patrol commands
2.)Ability to saves games
3.)Auto-repair but in a balanced way...somehow.

Wow, you guys are totally being realistic. Totally.  :thumbup:

( Autorepair is something I ( and many others ) don't like, because it kills the gameplay!
Reference needed.
Just come to the IRC and ask ;)
I guess the real problem is when you have tons of magicians/technicians/healers. They'd probably just get killed.

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #18 on: 15 February 2011, 03:46:15 »
I hereby present the trophy to John. He just beat the game.

I am on windows, and can assure you that using the addons folder has given me no visible overhead or extra load time over not using the addons folder. In fact, the megapack as a 7z addon in GAE loads faster than the exact same megapack in MegaGlest...
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will

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #19 on: 15 February 2011, 06:18:06 »
For 7zip/zip support: I don't know why it is like this, but especially windows takes ages to load games already now without zipped folders. Is this getting more worse with zip support? In multiplayer I often sit there and wait more than a minute waiting for those windows guys loading their games. Beside of this its indeed a great thing and will give us the possibility of a lot more features too ;-D

That windows loads slower is, I speculate, because of DirectX vs OpenGL rather than because of the it's filesystem bound?

7z itself presents challenges.  I'd favour zip as being a good balance between compression, improved load times (you heard me!  Its going to be increasingly quicker to get things out of a zip than off disk, but the difference is going to be small as unmeasurable at this point) without headaches.

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #20 on: 15 February 2011, 14:07:20 »
For me, I really want to see all the new shaders from GAE imported like normal mapping (or is it bump mapping?)
Although I am not so shure if things like bumb maps will be really visible so much!

- That depends on what you are using them for, using bump for individual chain links on a footman armor: probably won't bee seen, using bump to make a engraved skull on a footman shield: more visible, using bump to create a stone wall texture complete with engraved statues, columns, and large cracks to indicate an aging structure: very visible and defiantly visually impressive.

- Its getting harder for Glest to compete with other commercial RTS due to our lack of graphical shaders.

- patrolling sound like a good feature,  I would like Autorepair its almost necessary for my mod... it should be toggle able for those who do want it :P
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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #21 on: 18 February 2011, 05:03:26 »
I like the idea of a unified git repo.  I think the master should be vanilla glest with GAE and MG as branches.  I personally don't care too much for load/save but I think a Replay system would be great and allow for better videos.

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #22 on: 18 February 2011, 05:54:47 »
Normal Mapping: Yes it's normal mapping, bump is a nickname. I love this! Yes, definitely!

Specular: Most definitely! Specular comes at low cost and will allow awesome things like shiny armor and shiny plants(Crysis anyone?).

Addon Folder: Loads fine for me on Windows, blazing fast. I'm all for this, and if someone has a pack that makes something incompatible, just don't load it, plain and simple.

Save/Load: YES!

Patrol, Guard, whatever: YES!

Auto-Repair: YES! It makes the game feel more real, as if the workers are people rather than dummies.
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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #23 on: 18 February 2011, 11:53:09 »
Two things that should be considered:

Cloaking

Toggleable attack states
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Psychedelic_hands

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Re: What should really be ported from GAE to MG?
« Reply #24 on: 18 February 2011, 12:56:20 »
Pretty much everyone wants everything that GAE has.... :|
Which is.... Food for thought I guess   :confused:

 

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