Glest forks to join forces?

[John.d.h]

I think the pooch just got screwed.  Obviously I'm not a programmer and I haven't stuck my head into the code, but I can't help but feel you're giving up a massive long-term benefit because of a short(ish)-term challenge.

[Psychedelic_hands]

...

I'm sad.
Incredibly sad.



I know it would take sacrifices, but without a merge the future of Glest is extremely uncertain.
Glest is what we make of it, and I guess we're ripping it in two  :'(...

[ElimiNator]

Yes, Am just as disappointed but it can't be helped. Hopefully MG will be able to implement/port some of the GAE features.

[Omega]

Constellus is crushed by this. Constellus revolves around GAE, a port to MG would require a total re-working. We were counting on the merge to bring stable multiplayer for Constellus. The AI doesn't use the mod well at all, but a human would have great fun. Constellus was going to be a large scale mod that would be completely revolutionary in gameplay. So much for that.

I would test a merged engine. But I just don't see a point in these two forks, they're making a huge rift in the community and making modding a lot less fun.

I think I'm gonna give up on Glest modding and sorta retire, I caught the end of the "glory days".

I don't really care if the devs are pushed or not, they got the merge on the road, then pushed it off. It's like offering someone something they really want, telling them you'll get it for them in a month, then kicking them in the balls, and telling them you're just messing.

Full agreement here. Not to mention Project Red, Military, and Malevolent Rising, which all would benefit from improved multiplayer. And the MegaPack would benefit greatly from some of GAE's features.

I think the pooch just got screwed.  Obviously I'm not a programmer and I haven't stuck my head into the code, but I can't help but feel you're giving up a massive long-term benefit because of a short(ish)-term challenge.

Yes, Am just as disappointed but it can't be helped. Hopefully MG will be able to implement/port some of the GAE features.

Other way around.

My (very very very) blunt opinion: Give up on MegaGlest and focus on giving GAE a stable multiplayer, moving all development to it, as all MG mods work on GAE, but not vice versa. Yes, that was blunt, I don't mean to criticize the hard work of the devs, but it was done for the wrong engine. The split is seriously going to harm Glest.

[ultifd]

If we're not going to merge, we're obviously not going to port. Not GAE or MG...
Just appreciate what you got. Besides, when you say things like this:

Give up on MegaGlest and focus on giving GAE a stable multiplayer, moving all development to it, as all MG mods work on GAE, but not vice versa. Yes, that was blunt, I don't mean to criticize the hard work of the devs, but it was done for the wrong engine

it's not going to help. Statements like those leads to the opposite of progress of anything.

[Omega]

If we're not going to merge, we're obviously not going to port. Not GAE or MG...
Just appreciate what you got. Besides, when you say things like this:

Give up on MegaGlest and focus on giving GAE a stable multiplayer, moving all development to it, as all MG mods work on GAE, but not vice versa. Yes, that was blunt, I don't mean to criticize the hard work of the devs, but it was done for the wrong engine

it's not going to help. Statements like those leads to the opposite of progress of anything.

I admit, I was a little harsh, but what do you expect? Pretty much everyone really wanted this merge above anything else, and...well, I'll just requote John for this one, because his words of wisdom do wonders.

I think the pooch just got screwed.  Obviously I'm not a programmer and I haven't stuck my head into the code, but I can't help but feel you're giving up a massive long-term benefit because of a short(ish)-term challenge.

[John.d.h]

Statements like those leads to the opposite of progress of anything.

I don't think they leave us any worse off.  Various developers have shown that they have little to no interest in cooperating across the aisle; it's just that now the façade has finally come down and we can stop hoping and pretending.  Come to think of it, wasn't the entire MG project founded because somebody didn't want to work with GAE?

[ultifd]

What I meant was that insulting the megaglest developers is not going to help change their mind to merge MG with GAE.

And I think most of you guys don't really appreciate megaglest, unless it's merged with GAE. This isn't really a reason of why MG is not going to be merged with GAE, but if you guys did there probably would have been a better chance of a merge. Or a merge even earlier...  

I think the pooch just got screwed.  Obviously I'm not a programmer and I haven't stuck my head into the code, but I can't help but feel you're giving up a massive long-term benefit because of a short(ish)-term challenge.

How would it be short(ish)? Kinda the opposite...

I admit, I was a little harsh, but what do you expect? Pretty much everyone really wanted this merge above anything else, and...well, I'll just requote John for this one, because his words of wisdom do wonders.

I don't expect much...just no insulting.

[John.d.h]

And I think most of you guys don't really appreciate megaglest, unless it's merged with GAE. This isn't really a reason of why MG is not going to be merged with GAE, but if you guys did there probably would have been a better chance of a merge. Or a merge even earlier...  

I gave it a fair chance -- several in fact.  I really wanted to like MG because that's what everybody plays in multiplayer, and I wanted to get in on that.  The limited gameplay is just not impressive at all to me.  The options of what a unit can do, have not been improved at all since... what, 3.2.3.?  GAE may be lacking in multiplayer, but MG is lacking in a lot more than that.

How would it be short(ish)? Kinda the opposite...

It's short(ish) when compared to potentially many years of vastly improved development.  More new features, faster bug fixing, united publicity and multiplayer community, mods that work for everybody instead of one subset of players... I could go on.  All of that is being thrown out because it's too hard.  Who ever said game development (or programming in general) was easy?

[-Archmage-]

Quote from: ultifd on Today at 20:32:03
And I think most of you guys don't really appreciate megaglest, unless it's merged with GAE. This isn't really a reason of why MG is not going to be merged with GAE, but if you guys did there probably would have been a better chance of a merge. Or a merge even earlier...  No Opinion
I gave it a fair chance -- several in fact.  I really wanted to like MG because that's what everybody plays in multiplayer, and I wanted to get in on that.  The limited gameplay is just not impressive at all to me.  The options of what a unit can do, have not been improved at all since... what, 3.2.3.?  GAE may be lacking in multiplayer, but MG is lacking in a lot more than that.

Too true. MegaGlest also isn't doing NEARLY as much venturing into improving graphics/performance.

If there was one team of programmers all united on one engine, we could make some real progress. But there are just these little strings of progress sticking out all over both engines. MG has a few extra particles, advanced multiplayer. GAE has tons and tons of gameplay things you can do, normal and specular mapping in the works, and some sort of new lighting system to be put in soon. I really can't see MG or GAE going anywhere in the gaming world. A united engine with a whole team(not to mention a whole community as well) behind it would drive Glest back up the hill to what it once was. Or we can pass up this massive opportunity and sit in this swamp forever. Hardly recognized in the gaming world, winning no awards, community coughing and sputtering as it barely maintains activity...

Oh you shouldn't criticize the devs, they work so hard! Yea but do we go anywhere?

(click to show/hide)

The engineer works hard for many days and many nights to make the car run properly, yet in the end it's still stuck 4ft down into the mud. Might I recommend a towing service to get that thing outta the mud? Nah, I don't feel like spending that kind of money. I think if I just replace the spark plugs it'll be down the road in no time at all!

[ultifd]

Somehow MG's multiplayer makes up for it, for others and I at least.
Anyways, criticizing is fine, I guess...but no insults. 
They don't seem like they will be changing their minds though.
For now, I'll just play Warcraft III. It's so awesome...(never tried it before, actually.)
I can now see why many of the review sites said it was similar to it.
Awesome game.

[Omega]

If you want to be incrementally better: Be competitive. If you want to be exponentially better: Be cooperative.

[Zoythrus]

As was previously discussed, Constellus was relying upon this merge. this new development has both crushed my spirit and much of the life that Constellus was attempting to regain. (in case any of you are wondering about the status of Constellus, we've lost tons of momentum, but are in the process of giving it a push)

Now Softcoder and Titi, i have a question for you: how could you guys give up? you had everything going for you guys - even the community! we were all willing to do whatever was needed to make the merge easier for you guys, but you had to throw it all away.

so, what do you two want more? a merge that gets the best of both worlds or an eventual overshadowing of MG by GAE? i think i speak for the entire community when i say "i'd choose the former."

[kolli]

I'm very sad to hear this.

Years back I played Glest.
- Then I heard, it's dead. That made me sad.
- Then I head of GAE, that continues Glest. That made me happy.
- At the same time I heard from MegaGlest. That did confuse me:
"Should I play GAE or MG? Is one a real successor, and the other a mod of it, or are both Mods of the original one? Or are both indepoendent forks?"
- I stopped playing (couldn't decide, there were no real information about both for the normal player - only the forums).
- I did not play any of the Glest games until I heard of the merge.
- Then I head of the merge. That made me happy again:
"Finally all the confusion for me will be gone and the merged game will finally be a real successor of the original Glest"
- New I hear that this is not going to happen. Now I'm sad again.
I'll never play any of them again with this situation.

I think this is how many of the potential players think. Potential players are players that know of a game, but don't play it because of these kinds of confusion, missing features, better alternatives and/or indecisiveness.

And I have to agree: A merge would be short(ish). Even if it takes three years. That's simple math. A merge would take a finite number of time, but the merged game would last for an infinite amount of time after. So, it only can be short(ish) compared to the mrged game lifetime.

But without the merge, I'm convinced at least one of the two projects will die. Then we have a dead base (Glest), a dead fork and the other fork that misses a huge player base (the players from the dead fork that don't switch over to the other).

[ultifd]

I stopped playing (couldn't decide, there were no real information about both for the normal player - only the forums).

Check the wiki. https://docs.megaglest.org/Engines

3 years 

[Zoythrus]

the other fork that misses a huge player base (the players from the dead fork that don't switch over to the other).

i assume that you're talking about GAE, right?

[ultifd]

I don't think the MG team cares, if GAE ever actually overshadows MG it'll take at least 2 years probably. A little bit less, maybe.   GAE needs to be submitted to a lot of sites first though, which hasn't happened yet...and that takes a lot of work, actually.

[hailstone]

I think people are giving MG less credit than the devs deserve. Getting multiplayer to work is one of the most difficult tasks in game development (Wikipedia). Any feature used in multiplayer (which means most if not all of the single player features) could potentially break it. GAE has had the luxury of not having to worry about that. GAE has also focused more on getting features out rather than worrying about producing the best gaming experience. Like multiplayer, it is a difficult task and the MG team has worked really hard to make both single player and multiplayer a fun experience (regardless of anyone's subjective opinion).

I can understand the frustration of having two programs that appear to serve the same purpose. This is the nature of open source (more specifically GPL software). Another fork could appear tomorrow and that would be ok. If this were not possible then there might not be a stable multiplayer at all. When it comes down to it the people that do the work get the say. This was stated from the beginning of discussing the merge.

A possible compromise is to only promote GAE for modding and treat MG as a stand-alone game for the MegaPack and treat any other compatible mods for MG as secondary. This will allow MG to expand into other areas without worrying about the modding community (ie they can break compatability to make a better experience) and (almost) remove the choice that modders are having trouble deciding. I think both can exist together but they need to be treated as separate projects with separate goals and audiences, not two forks that can be mashed up to make one.

[Omega]

Though, GAE has multiplayer too, and even if not quite as stable, it still works, minus a lobby, which shouldn't depend on game features itself.

This was *still* given up too early, and the teamwork was ill-attempted.

[ultifd]

There's a very big difference between GAE's multiplayer and MG's, if you try it. Even with the basic things. You can't play windows to linux and vice versa. (Most MP games are cross-platform) Also, the chat obscures a large part of the screen every time you type...in reality Vanilla Glest and GAE can't be said it works anymore...
Basically GAE's multiplayer is the same as Vanilla Glest.

[softcoder]

I just want to thank Hailstone for showing some class and not joining in on the bashing. I think when we work hard to show mutual respect and avoid adding to comments that are more based on emotion than fact, it shows maturity. GAE has some great work in it, I myself would not dispute that. Instead of trying to convince everyone about what they should use or not use, thats always best left up to the people themselves. Also there is no reason why ideas and some code could not continue to be shared, this will still happen I'm sure.

Once again sorry for upsetting people, regardless of the charges from others, there was no facade, and the desire was genuine to merge. It is too bad that when things did not go the way people wanted, they further isolated themselves from the process. Fortunately, none of those involved were actual developers who could contribute to a merge, which shows me a higher level of maturity on the dev side.

Thanks

[ultifd]

Exactly what Hailstone said, I'm glad that the developers are handling things much more maturely than before. I mean they were before, but sometimes it got tense...
Although, I'm not so sure on that compromise. It's fine like how it is now, if people make mods like the Sci Fi Pack, then they can just make it all for MG first and then add GAE features.

[Coldfusionstorm]

I think people are giving MG less credit than the devs deserve. Getting multiplayer to work is one of the most difficult tasks in game development (Wikipedia). Any feature used in multiplayer (which means most if not all of the single player features) could potentially break it. GAE has had the luxury of not having to worry about that. GAE has also focused more on getting features out rather than worrying about producing the best gaming experience. Like multiplayer, it is a difficult task and the MG team has worked really hard to make both single player and multiplayer a fun experience (regardless of anyone's subjective opinion).

I can understand the frustration of having two programs that appear to serve the same purpose. This is the nature of open source (more specifically GPL software). Another fork could appear tomorrow and that would be ok. If this were not possible then there might not be a stable multiplayer at all. When it comes down to it the people that do the work get the say. This was stated from the beginning of discussing the merge.

A possible compromise is to only promote GAE for modding and treat MG as a stand-alone game for the MegaPack and treat any other compatible mods for MG as secondary. This will allow MG to expand into other areas without worrying about the modding community (ie they can break compatability to make a better experience) and (almost) remove the choice that modders are having trouble deciding. I think both can exist together but they need to be treated as separate projects with separate goals and audiences, not two forks that can be mashed up to make one.

A wise and needed qoute!.

 

[Perplesso]

I started my modding using GAE but do most in MG now. From a modders perspective, and I've nodded other games too, I much prefer working with MG, it's more stable. No offense to GAE devs, but MG features have never crashed on me, whereas trying to use GAE ones did.

Having had both engines crash multiple times before in different occasions, I'd hardly consider either to be perfectly stable. For an open source freeware game, it's much better than some, though both have their limitations. Generally, both engines are rather unstable/buggy with new features, and that's to be expected when neither one has a large testing team nor the time to spend testing it. It's the price to pay for using cutting edge features.

Between the two, MegaGlest is usually slightly stabler, though GAE is more optimized for performance. While GAE's multiplayer may not match MegaGlest's (for now), it still has the vast upperhand in features and above all: customizability, something I consider very important in Glest.

Of course, I would love to see both in one engine: GAE's countless improvements combined with stable multiplayer.

A modest proposal:
a real merge of MG and GAE would be impossible. But what about "converging" in multiple steps, taking one non common feature of each fork, and including at each release of the other fork? For example, in its next release MG could contain GAE's "patrol" command, and GAE would contain MG's multiple animations per action. And so on...
Obviously, some common features with different implementations, like pathfinder, should be selected between the two available (choosing the best one).

[John.d.h]

A modest proposal:
a real merge of MG and GAE would be impossible. But what about "converging" in multiple steps, taking one non common feature of each fork, and including at each release of the other fork? For example, in its next release MG could contain GAE's "patrol" command, and GAE would contain MG's multiple animations per action. And so on...
Obviously, some common features with different implementations, like pathfinder, should be selected between the two available (choosing the best one).

They do that to some degree already, but a more concerted effort in that direction would be appreciated, especially when it comes to the modding side.  For example, MG now has attack boosting properties but they are implemented in a very different way from GAE's emanations, so a modder who wants to release for both engines would have to maintain two different XML sets for that same feature.  Perhaps it could even make a future merge more feasible if they grew close enough.  Maybe not, but we can dream.