unit selection count changed to 36

[titi]

I changed the unit selection count in MG and the way it is displayed. You can select up to 36 units now!
What do you think about it? ( I personally don't really like it that much )

Look at top right of the pictures!
many:

(click to show/hide)

normal:

(click to show/hide)

medium:

(click to show/hide)

[ultifd]

Now I don't really like it much either :/ I guess I liked how it was before... normal + bottom (but it had problems, so if it was fixed that would be good.) But I guess Medium would be best + having units being selected on the bottomside too.

[John.d.h]

So it just shrinks the icons?  I don't really think that's the best way to go about it.  Maybe stack them instead, based on unit type?

[ultifd]

So it just shrinks the icons?  I don't really think that's the best way to go about it.  Maybe stack them instead, based on unit type?

True, I remember someone posting about that.

[Ishmaru]

Interesting. So the images just shrink to accommodate the number of units?  That might make it difficult to see. I like John.d.h idea. With his idea we could make it more possible to have unlimited unit select count if we choose to. BTW what happened to UI being developed by Conzar is it not going to be implemented in MegaGlest? I set max select count to 99 for annex no idea how it would look with this change.

[ultifd]

I set max select count to 99 for annex no idea how it would look with this change.

Huh? I set it to 100 before the change, and it didn't work. 32 icons were the max right?

[Zoythrus]

Maybe stack them instead, based on unit type?

this is the best way to do it.

does Silnarm know about this idea?

[ultifd]

does Silnarm know about this idea?

To me, it wouldn't really fit GAE...but he probably does, since it was mentioned in the past. Well, I guess that idea was a bit different and it couldn't happen... But this doesn't really mean anything anyways, mainly for 0.4 it's just going to be bug fixes, I think.

Anyways, I tried it out and the "smallest" version of the icons aren't too bad.

[John.d.h]

Also, http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/glestae/ticket/193

[ultifd]

0.5... That means it would be implemented after the merge...

[Omega]

Hmm, yeah, I don't really like the shrunk icons, though I do like the ability to select more units. I much prefered the idea of "stacking" the icons by showing a number to show how many of that unit there are (and would only appear that way if more than 16 units are selected).

[titi]

To say it clear, what I did not like about the selection idea is the fact that you can select more than 16 units, not the way its done!

Of course first it looks like gameplay will get more easy when you can select more units, but in fact it gets more complicated!
Why this?:
It will be much harder to group small groups now! Small groups are something you really don't want to miss when you are a bit more advanced and have to manage a fight! You typically group your units to the number slots 1-10 and then you switch like mad while fighting and give attack orders to each of the groups. 16 units was a good size regarding the whole game! Too much in the beginning, but ok in the end. You just double clicked a unit before and you got the perfect amount of units selected.
Now you have to double click to select typically all units of this kind in range. Then you let them walk to another place where you  use the selection box to define your smaller groups. All in all very complicated!. And don't tell me you want to manage a fight with 36 units in selection! If you do this its just letting the units attack for themselves, not really manage the fight which is the most fun part when playing glest!

About the idea with units groups displayed with an overlay number: I think its a bad idea! In game you will always think you only selected one of the units because you only see 1 image! It might sound like a very cleaned up way to show the selection, but I fear it will not be that good.
And does it really matter if you don't get the exact number of units in the selection? I think the information "many" is good enough in this moment and the size of the images doesn't really matter! And did one of you tried it?

Beside of this I only had very very rare games where I had more then 48 warriors at the same time! So I don't really get what the big selection is good for. In fact glest gets very slow if there is such a big amount of units in the game!

[will]

how about some modifier key such as ctrl or shift or alt being brought into play for power user selections:  mod+click on a unit selects all units very close to it, mod+click again - a second click - selects in a bigger area, and so on; so to select 36 you might have to click multiple times.  A nice selection circle could perhaps help make this feel natural.

[Conzar]

From my understanding, Softcoder is working on merging my patches into mainline (unless he has stalled on this due to the merger between GAE and MG).  As for being more complicated because you want smaller groups, that is subjective.  I personally enjoy only having a few control groups for my units (ctr 1 for melee, ctr 2 for range, ctr 3 for spells).  Then in the future, I would like to use control groups for groups of buildings (using 4 - 7 for various buildings).  These sorts of control groups would be impossible with the current versions of MG/GAE.  However, titi can certainly achieve is preference within this proposed selection mechanism.

It seems there are 2 proposed methods for achieving massive unit selection (that is practical).  The method I have already implemented uses tabs as shown here.  This method was based from the way unit selection is handled in Starcraft 2 (in my opinion the best option to date).  The benefit of using the multiple tabs is that you could still represent unit health on the icons (in SC2 the icons change color based on health).

The other method of stacking the units with numbers indicating the amount of units also has its advantages (it quickly allows you to know the exact number of the unit).  The tab method requires a mental calculation; however, the stacking method doesn't allow any additional information such as health to be represented.

I'm actually fine with either method (stacked or tabbed), but I think the current limitations of the selection mechanism makes the game too micro-heavy (ala the original starcraft).

[titi]

Just some comments:
We currently have 3 ways to select more units not only 2 ( I showed/implemented a 3rd one ).
I don't really like the idea of tabs or grouping with numbers. These are more theoretical kinds of selections, because we don't have ( and cannot handle ) huge amounts of units. So it does not fit to the gameplay of glest! Glest is not created/designed/meant for epic battles with thousands of units! Its more a micro management game ( as you said! ) and thats part of the fun playing it! There are other games which are meant to be played this strategic way with huge armies( I think Spring for example ), but glest is not.

For the buildings:
It is possible to select multiple buildings! Its just not wanted from the one who made the factions! Its no engine limit! (I like this limitation because you need to handle all this)!

@will, yes this is a good idea! I must think about it.

[Zoythrus]

I don't really like the idea of tabs or grouping with numbers. These are more theoretical kinds of selections, because we don't have ( and cannot handle ) huge amounts of units.

what about the discussion about GAE using the latest OpenGL? supposedly that made the game run 10X faster. that would allow for armies that exceed 50 men w/o much lag.

[Omega]

I don't really like the idea of tabs or grouping with numbers. These are more theoretical kinds of selections, because we don't have ( and cannot handle ) huge amounts of units. So it does not fit to the gameplay of glest! Glest is not created/designed/meant for epic battles with thousands of units! Its more a micro management game ( as you said! ) and thats part of the fun playing it! There are other games which are meant to be played this strategic way with huge armies( I think Spring for example ), but glest is not.

Bear in mind this is a personal opinion, and there's no reason that mods cannot be made for large battles (maybe not thousands of units, but possibly a hundred or so). I, for one, find the numbering of groups immensively helpful and enhances strategy because we can split our units into strategic groups and use them as so. For example, we prepare for an attack by having our fast units head towards a base to lure the foe away, then bring in two other groups from opposing sides to cripple the foe. Without numbering, that would be nearly impossible to do unless you can click really fast (and I am a strong believer that games should not be won just based on whoever is the fastest clicker). Just my two bits.

[titi]

Omega I think you got it wrong or I didn't said it the right way. I like the grouping with numbers on the keyboard a lot!  I talked about the idea John d.h. mentioned first in this thread. The way how to show huge groups of more than 16 players.

[ultifd]

Conzar's tabbing looks cool, but the problem with that is that people have to select it...to me stacking is probably the best, but I suppose Conzar's idea could be implemented as a secondary way.

[titi]

and my way is no option?  Whats so bad with it?

[ElimiNator]

and my way is no option?  Whats so bad with it?

I like it, not too many not too less.

[Conzar]

The method you describe titi doesn't allow for an arbitrary number of units to be selected.  I think thats the main benefit that the other 2 methods provide.  I am liking the idea of stacking; I would definitely like to try it out.

[Ishmaru]

Some mods as well as magitech would be better with just 16 units but, I believe tons of mods would benefit greatly from being able to select large (infinite) amount of units Annex being one of them...  Game play far too fast and frenzied in Annex to have a limited selection... I guess 32 select limit is ok and could work out, but not the same. I use the glestuser.ini to make limit 99 and game play works just fine. Just not visually, as the unit icons spill over into the section with commands.

Anyways only issue I have with titi changes is that the icons are harder to see when shrunk... Other than that it wouldn't hurt to have the option.

[John.d.h]

Some mods as well as magitech would be better with just 16 units but, I believe tons of mods would benefit greatly from being able to select large (infinite) amount of units

This. It's an artificial limitation that isn't needed.  In my opinion, if modders want to make a faction or tech tree where 16 units is the norm, fine, but if they want to make one where 24 or 36 is the norm, that's their prerogative.

Anyways only issue I have with titi changes is that the icons are harder to see when shrunk.

Yeah, that's my main issue with the look.  Some people put a lot of work into making really nice icons, and shrinking them down makes them look bad.  Plus, it's more work to think "how is this going to look at half size, quarter size, etc.?"  At least if they're stacked, you get a few full-sized good-looking icons and all that work doesn't go to waste.

[titi]

I also think the selection count should be tech specific, so mods can have more and magitech/megapack can have 16.

Regarding the size of the icons, Maybe you didn't got it right! Originally the icons are shown in NORMAL size!
Only if the selection is too big they get more and more shrinked to fit with the space. Thats done dynamically while playing!
And I think later in game where you manage huge amounts of units it doesn't matter to see every icon very detailed.
Thats why I personally still really like my way.  For me the display is much more intuitive the way I did it.

Maybe someone can try my way of selecting units? It looks like everyone only talks in theory about it!