What does Glest do well and what hasn't been done.

[myles]

Hey Everyone,
After having my questions answered over at the GAE section I'm trying to nail down what hasn't been done before, what is achievable and what will be fun.

- Fast paced game play. So far most Glest game play has been slow to get going, this is meant in both animation/ movement speed, but also in the time it takes for the fun to start kicking in (from my perspective).

- Asymmetrical factions. What I've seen of most Glest factions are realistically just reskins and balancing changes. What this comes down to is the two factions not having enough core differences (Collect -> Build -> Fight).

- Resource based fights. I'd really like to see fighting over primary resources, I've not seen this happen so much in Glest, but I think if the main resources could be contested, it would end in some really awesome and dramatic attacks.

- Unit Leveling. I know this is only a feature in GAE, but I think it'd be great if units felt they had some worth, to really push this I'd like to see (Yeah this is a feature request too!) change in the model/ texture as they level up.

- Clean & Easy to read graphics. I've noticed a lot of mods are starting to go with a more realistic texture style and I believe this may be crippling the ability for players to quickly read what things are. Factions should be easy to distinguish (not just by team colours) but by silhouette and movement style. It also requires quite a clean tileset and map.

This isn't my own little personal list, so feel free to brainstorm with me! And I hope I did not offend anyone with what's been said.
Thanks! 

[John.d.h]

This is the kind of discussion that I would like to highly encourage.

This is something I've tried to address a little bit with my mod, Project Green.  It attempts (and hopefully succeeds) to create an entirely different play style, turning Glest into more of a RTT instead of RTS (tactics rather than strategy).

Link: https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=6582

I hope nobody objects to me sticking this topic for a little while, as I believe this is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be brought to attention.

Edit: I had a good discussion about this kind of thing over on the Wesnoth forum, which was gave me the idea for Project Green in the first place.  http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32709

[ultifd]

- Fast paced game play. So far most Glest game play has been slow to get going, this is meant in both animation/ movement speed, but also in the time it takes for the fun to start kicking in (from my perspective).

I just don't think Glest is for that, basically. After the merge we could do something like Project Green, but Glest just isn't that type of game, IMO. I guess people can just play games that are based on the Spring Engine if they really think Glest is a bit slow. Is it really that slow though? For me, there's usually action within the first 5 minutes of the game. That's quick enough for me. When Glest's AI in general is improved and improved more, it should be even better I guess. Or faster? We'll see...

- Asymmetrical factions. What I've seen of most Glest factions are realistically just reskins and balancing changes. What this comes down to is the two factions not having enough core differences (Collect -> Build -> Fight).

I think this is not really true, anymore. There are still some factions that are like that, but most factions have significant differences. Especially the recent ones...

[John.d.h]

Glest just isn't that type of game, IMO.

That's what Glest is, but I think it's more important to figure out what Glest could be.

[ultifd]

Glest just isn't that type of game, IMO.

That's what Glest is, but I think it's more important to figure out what Glest could be.

Right, but IMO it shouldn't be too fast paced anyways. We could just have a mode or something for that. There's a solution.
Although, I find it weird that we're having all these threads about feature requests and etc while we should be focusing on the merge and stabilizing the forks...

[Ishmaru]

Hey Everyone,
After having my questions answered over at the GAE section I'm trying to nail down what hasn't been done before, what is achievable and what will be fun.

- Fast paced game play. So far most Glest game play has been slow to get going, this is meant in both animation/ movement speed, but also in the time it takes for the fun to start kicking in (from my perspective).

- Asymmetrical factions. What I've seen of most Glest factions are realistically just reskins and balancing changes. What this comes down to is the two factions not having enough core differences (Collect -> Build -> Fight).

- Resource based fights. I'd really like to see fighting over primary resources, I've not seen this happen so much in Glest, but I think if the main resources could be contested, it would end in some really awesome and dramatic attacks.

- Unit Leveling. I know this is only a feature in GAE, but I think it'd be great if units felt they had some worth, to really push this I'd like to see (Yeah this is a feature request too!) change in the model/ texture as they level up.

- Clean & Easy to read graphics. I've noticed a lot of mods are starting to go with a more realistic texture style and I believe this may be crippling the ability for players to quickly read what things are. Factions should be easy to distinguish (not just by team colours) but by silhouette and movement style. It also requires quite a clean tileset and map.

This isn't my own little personal list, so feel free to brainstorm with me! And I hope I did not offend anyone with what's been said.
Thanks!  

Believe it or not ALL these things are very possible even with Megaglest (then it must be possible with GAE), without any editing of source code. It just takes some thinking outside Glest standards which most mods do not try. Its like you said many mods although varied from steampunk and aliens and just about everything under the sun, these mods still FEEL like Glest in terms of pacing, scaling, and overall structure. Now this may not be a bad thing for me it does give the impression that glest is limited in its capability as a game engine.  But many dont realize Glest full potential (weither its GAE or Even Megaglest), it just requires someone to look outside the standards that magitech set, with some creative ideas/workarounds to these problems above.

Im not trying to self promote my mod my mod, but Annex:Conquer the World https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=6517.0 (wip atm) is actually being built to address most of these issues, including fast paced gameplay (with combat as the focus), more competitive resource gathering, more unique units, giving players options with strategy, and even multiple ways to win, sabotage, and battle, without any changes to the MegaGlest source code. Not to mention the most unique tileset as this single tile set can create landsacpes from desert, to canyons, grasslands, forests, swamps, deserted cities, and even all of these in one! Done by re-assigning all tileset objects. Plans to create multiple "Generals" for the two factions, and even adding a pre-deployed mode (like no bases mode from Red Alert)

Its not released yet but i hope to show more of what glest is currently capable of.

Why plan to add what could already be done?? =D

[Psychedelic_hands]

(click to show/hide)

M-m-ma-Myles? You're back! Does this mean SST:LD may live?

Many mods are currently trying to achieve these things... So just wait a little bit  

Glest just isn't that type of game, IMO.

That's what Glest is, but I think it's more important to figure out what Glest could be.

Right, but IMO it shouldn't be too fast paced anyways. We could just have a mode or something for that. There's a solution.
Although, I find it weird that we're having all these threads about feature requests and etc while we should be focusing on the merge and stabilizing the forks...

Glest isn't a game, I see Magitech as THE game. Glest is an engine which brings us other games like Military, Mrise, the Megapack, Constellus, Vbros, Project red/green and any other tech-tree there is.
To say all these games have to be the same pace, style and mode as magitech is just limiting the communities creativity, and ultimately Glest.

Really the only thing Glest has over other open source RTS engines is it's probably the easiest to mod. And particularly with GAE we have many more gameplay options like invisibility, teleportation and water units (Which is why most modders prefer GAE). I think we probably should strive to fill a niche otherwise different projects like 0 A.D will make us obsolete . :'(

[ultifd]

Maybe you should try to think from a different point of view, not a modder's. As a modder I would have the same views, but as a player or tester I would have the opposite.

Really the only thing Glest has over other open source RTS engines is it's probably the easiest to mod. And particularly with GAE we have many more gameplay options like invisibility, teleportation and water units (Which is why most modders prefer GAE). I think we probably should strive to fill a niche otherwise different projects like 0 A.D will make us obsolete . :'(

I don't know, that's something to debate about. Comparing to 0 A.D., most of the AI actually works with Glest and they still use IP connecting and such, while at least have a basic masterserver.   Once MG and GAE is merged we'll be a pretty nice game/engine, and then once we find an opengl person we should be even better.

[Psychedelic_hands]

Maybe you should try to think from a different point of view, not a modder's.

Listen, if Glest WASN'T modable, how much of the community would be here? I know I would be gone. A modable game means a limitless one, as a PLAYER and a modder that is a bloody good thing. Surely you cannot believe that the modders don't play the game as well? And if there weren't any modders there wouldn't be much of a game anyway. The modders mod so people can play.... So anything that benifits the modders is directly for the players, who are also the modders.
If you want to just play the Mega pack forever then fine, just please don't get in the way of real progress.

Really the only thing Glest has over other open source RTS engines is it's probably the easiest to mod. And particularly with GAE we have many more gameplay options like invisibility, teleportation and water units (Which is why most modders prefer GAE). I think we probably should strive to fill a niche otherwise different projects like 0 A.D will make us obsolete . :'(

I don't know, that's something to debate about. Comparing to 0 A.D., most of the AI actually works with Glest and they still use IP connecting and such, while at least have a basic masterserver.  

I've been keeping up to date with the 0 A.D project, their AI is already much better designed than Glest's and their multiplayer WILL get better than ours, much much better.
If glest is going to rely on those merits then we will have to lift our game (literally). The only way I see Glest suriving is if it becomes sort of more like Warcraft III, with lots of gameplay options and decent visuals. Where 0.AD will become more like Age of Empires III with super realistic graphics and basic units.

[John.d.h]

Although, I find it weird that we're having all these threads about feature requests and etc while we should be focusing on the merge and stabilizing the forks...

This really doesn't have anything to do with the merger.  Only one thing proposed in this thread would actually require any new code.  Everything else is up to the modding community.

I think we probably should strive to fill a niche otherwise different projects like 0 A.D will make us obsolete . :'(

I don't think that's going to happen.  Glest and 0AD are two fundamentally different games.  Like you said, we're more of a Warcraft-style game, whereas they originally arose from an Age of Empires mod.  Their environments look way better than ours and they have formations, whereas we have effects and air units.  Plus, I hate to say it, but it seems to me like 0AD will always be an AoE clone, whereas Glest is free to do whatever it wants.  If anything, we need to be less like Warcraft 3.  If we imitate, then we have no advantage to most gamers.  Even being free doesn't matter to most people who like WC3, because they already own it, so they can pay $0 and play Glest or pay $0 and play Warcraft.

The one who follows is always behind the one who leads.  As an indie project, Glest is free to take risks and innovate.  It has no stakeholders with $50 million invested in the project, and no executive commission leaning over its shoulder worrying about how well a feature is going to sell.  We can be creative.  We can make Glest our game.  We can make something different and beautiful, rather than yet another generic RTS.

Maybe it's our niche to have a gazillion mods that all take advantage of different features and provide very different gaming experiences.

[ultifd]

I don't want to make this thread a flame war, so I won't reply to the 1st half of Hand's post.
Although...

If you want to just play the Mega pack forever then fine, just please don't get in the way of real progress.

Hell yeah, cause that's all that MG has!

Although, I find it weird that we're having all these threads about feature requests and etc while we should be focusing on the merge and stabilizing the forks...

This really doesn't have anything to do with the merger.  Only one thing proposed in this thread would actually require any new code.  Everything else is up to the modding community.

I know, I was just talking in general since it was somewhat related. More things would probably be thought up though as we debate, which is why I moved this to the general discussion board.

I think we probably should strive to fill a niche otherwise different projects like 0 A.D will make us obsolete . :'(

I don't think that's going to happen.  Glest and 0AD are two fundamentally different games.  Like you said, we're more of a Warcraft-style game, whereas they originally arose from an Age of Empires mod.  Their environments look way better than ours and they have formations, whereas we have effects and air units.  Plus, I hate to say it, but it seems to me like 0AD will always be an AoE clone, whereas Glest is free to do whatever it wants.  If anything, we need to be less like Warcraft 3.  If we imitate, then we have no advantage to most gamers.  Even being free doesn't matter to most people who like WC3, because they already own it, so they can pay $0 and play Glest or pay $0 and play Warcraft.

The one who follows is always behind the one who leads.  As an indie project, Glest is free to take risks and innovate.  It has no stakeholders with $50 million invested in the project, and no executive commission leaning over its shoulder worrying about how well a feature is going to sell.  We can be creative.  We can make Glest our game.  We can make something different and beautiful, rather than yet another generic RTS.

Maybe it's our niche to have a gazillion mods that all take advantage of different features and provide very different gaming experiences.

Yep.   What John said, 110%.

[Omega]

Indeed, it's all in the modder. You've been falling behind in the mods you've been playing, me thinks. Most of the recent mods have not been retextures, especially some of the GAE only mods like Military, Project Green, Constellus, and Malevolent Rising.

And I can't help but agree with hans, most of the long-time members of the community who have been here the longest are modders or programmers. Without the modability, Glest wouldn't be the big hit it is today. It's the modability, whether you are playing the mod or making it, that makes Glest unique and fun.

At any rate, welcome back, and enjoy some of the new mods that expand on Glest further than ever before!

Edit: Unstickied, couldn't find any reason for it to be stickied and there's already tons of stickies here, so...

[Psychedelic_hands]

I don't want to make this thread a flame war, so I won't reply to the 1st half of Hand's post.
Although...

If you want to just play the Mega pack forever then fine, just please don't get in the way of real progress.

Hell yeah, cause that's all that MG has!

Sorry if that seemed like an atack, but please lets just discuss this.
You said that the Modders opinion and the players (actually I won't say players, because modders are players too) opinion are different. I just want to know why? Whats different about them? Do they not want to play new and innovating mods?
It seems like you don't,  and everything should be like magitech.... and you're branding those who do as the "modders" and those who don't as the "players".
 
This community is already divided enough.... I want to be seen as a player, modder, GAE supporter and MG supporter...

[ultifd]

Well, I'm pretty sure that was an attack so please don't do that again.

Do they not want to play new and innovating mods?
It seems like you don't,  It seems like you don't,  and everything should be like magitech.... and you're branding those who do as the "modders" and those who don't as the "players".

I guess I was being too vague, although I didn't think you'd jump to a conclusion like that. I guess you've never seen my feedback of mods...or vids.
So, IMO if you're a player or a tester, Glest/MG/GAE is the actual game and engine, while Mods are just addons or data. Sometimes though, if the mod is good enough in all or most aspects, then it's like what you said. But all of the mods that has been released so far hasn't done that...
As for modders to players, that discussion would just be getting more and more OT, and I don't think it'll go anywhere. One thing though, if modders were players also they would try and play both of the engines, release it for both of the forks and etc. That's not my main reason but it's still something that bothers me a bit.
And don't forgot about testers. To them I believe it's really apparent that the engine is also the game, and mods are mods.

This community is already divided enough.

The community is divided, but it's only because of those people who choose to join a side. I think it's fine to prefer something, but not when they choose a side and etc. I've seen this with both sides of the community, and I continue to see it...

[Hagekura]

My heart hurts I read some of myles stated. :'(
I'm looking forward to newfeatures will be implemented in glest and I'd like to see the "New & Innovating" gaming experience though,
The "original glest(magitech)" style is really so bad...? but I love it...

[myles]

Woah seems like some of you got really defensive! As said this was no 'jab' at the modders, mods or the engine. What everyones said has a fair point, I'm not going to address anything directly as I think some of you got the wrong idea. This is not a feature request (Okay maybe that leveling with new models was, and I just realized thats already possible . This was not saying what no mod had done before I was saying this is what Glest modders needs to build on if it wants to have a healthier range of mods. Lets not compare Glest with other products, such as 0AD, theres a reason people came to use Glest, and thats because of its unmatched modability.

My point really comes down to the fundamental issue with Glest as an engine, that is that there is no way to change victory conditions in XML or LUA (other than scenarios) in multiplayer games. Now some might think there is no need to change victory conditions, but when your limited to something as simple as 'destroy all the enemy' You can't help but wonder how much further the gameplay could be taken.

I'm kinda annoyed most of you would rather argue that Glest is 'fine as it is' rather than help brain storm some ideas that could actually constitute to making a healthier range of mods.
Cheers guys.

[ultifd]

I'm kinda annoyed most of you would rather argue that Glest is 'fine as it is' rather than help brain storm some ideas that could actually constitute to making a healthier range of mods.
Cheers guys.

Myles, have you seen the upcoming mods? Especially Annex? I don't think there's much to brainstorm, as copying other engines or games' ideas doesn't really count...

My point really comes down to the fundamental issue with Glest as an engine, that is that there is no way to change victory conditions in XML or LUA (other than scenarios) in multiplayer games. Now some might think there is no need to change victory conditions, but when your limited to something as simple as 'destroy all the enemy' You can't help but wonder how much further the gameplay could be taken.

Well, we should add more modes after the merge...sounds like a repeated feature request