Split discussion from "Discussion about Resource Modifiers"

[Omega]

This topic has been split from https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=7282.0.  Have a nice day.
♥ John.d.h

Because that would be cheating! 

It could still be interesting in a single player game. Rather than decreasing what your opponents get, increase what you get, so that you can produce more units faster, etc... In fact, now that I think of it, it could be a very fun feature, and as long as used properly and not hidden, it would even be fine in multiplayer. Make that a feature request!

No thanks, if we wanted that we wouldn't have removed that in the first place. Could be evolved into something more, but now is not the time.

Valid reasoning required. The question isn't why, I already explained that. The question is: Why not? After all, the most brilliant part is that you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT! It's at the player's own discretion (and if single player only, it would never affect anyone else. If multiplayer available, perhaps it would require all players to agree to that). It would be a fun feature when you want a faster game, or a "bigger" game. It's like how Project Green was made to let players skip resource gathering and jump right into the action. Instead, you can speed up the resource gathering (on any faction too) to jump into the action faster. Or you could pit yourself with a 3x multiplier against a CPU with a 5x multiplier, just for insanely epic battles.

So, again, please explain the "why not" clause.

Oh, also:

if we wanted that we wouldn't have removed that in the first place

Was it ever there?

[ultifd]

Oh, also:

if we wanted that we wouldn't have removed that in the first place

Was it ever there?

You should check things, even if you have your own doubts. Seriously.   A simple search...
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?topic=6087.msg62158#msg62158
Anyways, "back in the day" it was there for testing.

Valid reasoning required. The question isn't why, I already explained that. The question is: Why not? After all, the most brilliant part is that you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT! It's at the player's own discretion (and if single player only, it would never affect anyone else. If multiplayer available, perhaps it would require all players to agree to that). It would be a fun feature when you want a faster game, or a "bigger" game. It's like how Project Green was made to let players skip resource gathering and jump right into the action. Instead, you can speed up the resource gathering (on any faction too) to jump into the action faster. Or you could pit yourself with a 3x multiplier against a CPU with a 5x multiplier, just for insanely epic battles.

Well, sometimes valid reasoning is not required, if it's kinda like common sense.
I just believe it's not fun and it messes up the gameplay, even if it's singleplayer. If people really want more units they can just speedup the gameplay. I think others have the same opinion...Overall since most people play MG for multiplayer, it was removed so people wouldn't use it to cheat.

[John.d.h]

Valid reasoning required. The question isn't why, I already explained that. The question is: Why not? After all, the most brilliant part is that you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT! It's at the player's own discretion (and if single player only, it would never affect anyone else. If multiplayer available, perhaps it would require all players to agree to that). It would be a fun feature when you want a faster game, or a "bigger" game. It's like how Project Green was made to let players skip resource gathering and jump right into the action. Instead, you can speed up the resource gathering (on any faction too) to jump into the action faster. Or you could pit yourself with a 3x multiplier against a CPU with a 5x multiplier, just for insanely epic battles.

So, again, please explain the "why not" clause.

Now now Omega, don't go trying to apply GAE logic to an MG feature request.

While GAE is meant to be whatever the player/designer wants it to be, MG is a more specific kind of game -- I'm not sure what direction it's going, but it's a finite one.  This is the impression I get anyway.  Feel free to correct me, anyone.

And besides, the question is always "why", NOT "why not", when dealing with feature requests.  There's no sense in the developers putting forth the effort for something that hardly anyone is going to use/enjoy.  The burden of proof is there because everything takes time to implement, and there is the opportunity cost of not working on something else with that time.

[ultifd]

GAE logic? IMO there isn't really such a thing. Maybe there is, I don't know. IMO it's just opinion. Maybe when GAE gets thousands of downloads they will change some things...

Not sure if MG is more of a specific kind of game, it's just basically a more stable Vanilla Glest with a lot more features. It's missing things, but it has the essentials to be a decent game. GAE, is a bit different. It's decent, but it's kinda missing those things. At least, for me. After playing some other RTS, I feel that even though it has a lot of nice features, I wouldn't really use most of them. I'd use other features, the ones that are hard to implement...

And besides, the question is always "why", NOT "why not", when dealing with feature requests.

Exactly. And for GAE I'd rather have a "stable" release than a few new features, especially since it needs to finish/polish things first, like the options menu and addons...

[ultifd]

Those would be the steps, I just believe MG isn't intended for that...After all, 99 percent of the games are serious. 

[Ishmaru]

By serious meaning official rules / proving your skills as a glest player kinda game?

maybe true maybe not true, just think: are 99% of multiplayer games serious because that is what all players want? Or is it because they don't have much options but to be serious games....

Just a thought

[ultifd]

How many people would really play those "unserious" games? Would it really be beneficial, or would it just give them a false sense of hope that they could just always change their resource multiplier so they would always beat CPU megas. Those are the question that I asked myself, and the same questions I thought when this was implemented...
Anyways, all up to titi.

[Omega]

How many people would really play those "unserious" games?

It's not unserious. It's the same logic as Project Red Green used.

As for GAE logic, it's not GAE logic, it's Glest logic. The keyword is customizability. You don't think it will be fun? Again: don't use it. It's like GAE's autoreturn and autorepair. You can permanently turn them off in the INI if you want to do all the micromanagement yourself. But, just because YOU don't want it doesn't mean others think the same. Why should others be limited just because you don't like it?

Unfair in multiplayer? So disable it!

Hard to implement? Seems to me it was already in MG, and the effort was expended to remove it.

[ultifd]

Project Red doesn't have any type of logic, as it's just adding GAE features. I think you misunderstood me.
Now I understand why it's "GAE logic"...
No extra effort was expended to remove it, it was a judgement that either titi or softcoder chose. It was included for testing, obviously.
Anyways, it's all up to the developers.
And it's not because of simply "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be implemented." It's for other reasons. This is all applied to multiplayer, where it's way different from singleplayer. Eventually we need to deal with cheating too. You've failed to realize that. Who plays megaglest for it's singleplayer, anyways? Aren't you the one that always says MG is just multiplayer? If there's going to be any change, it's going to be with multiplayer. But that's going to take some steps, as Ishmaru said. Maybe you should actually try playing a few multiplayer games, Omega. Then, maybe you would understand what I was talking about.

[Psychedelic_hands]

Isn't the game about having fun? not having "serious" games?
Why totally dismiss a potentially fun idea without a second thought? Game development is pretty complex, if you dismissed everything with a flaw then there wouldn't be much game left.
Ishmaru just came up with some very good ideas to make it work, and I'm sure everyone could come with some more.

Please everyone, be opened minded, be flexible and most importantly lets be buddies and not fight about silly things.

[ultifd]

Just because we're using the term "serious", doesn't mean it's not fun. Try it yourself, and you'll see... 
Without a second thought? I've had many thoughts on this...

[Omega]

Just because we're using the term "serious", doesn't mean it's not fun. Try it yourself, and you'll see... 
Without a second thought? I've had many thoughts on this...

Bearing in mind that you haven't actually given a flat out reason to oppose the idea. Mostly just carefully worded replies about how it's fine as it is now...

[ultifd]

Well, can you guys actually say that it's "not fine"?   It's cause you and  Hands hasn't actually tried a real MG multiplayer game before, successfully. Therefore you guys can't see my reason of the argument, which is the main problem... It's not just an idea... The flat out reason is related to cheating and then, balance.

And it's not because of simply "I don't like it, so it shouldn't be implemented." It's for other reasons. This is all applied to multiplayer, where it's way different from singleplayer. Eventually we need to deal with cheating too. You've failed to realize that. Who plays megaglest for it's singleplayer, anyways? Aren't you the one that always says MG is just multiplayer? If there's going to be any change, it's going to be with multiplayer. But that's going to take some steps, as Ishmaru said. Maybe you should actually try playing a few multiplayer games, Omega. Then, maybe you would understand what I was talking about.

[Omega]

Well, can you guys actually say that it's "not fine"?   It's cause you and  Hands hasn't actually tried a real MG multiplayer game before, successfully. Therefore you guys can't see my reason of the argument, which is the main problem... It's not just an idea... The flat out reason is related to cheating and then, balance.

You are wrong. I have played MG multiplayer games before, just not with you. I can't play on my regular connection, but I have played full games before on other's connections. I've also played a lot of multiplayer on more stable games, and still decree this could be a fun option. Worried about cheating? DON'T USE IT!

As for GAE logic, it's not GAE logic, it's Glest logic. The keyword is customizability. You don't think it will be fun? Again: don't use it. It's like GAE's autoreturn and autorepair. You can permanently turn them off in the INI if you want to do all the micromanagement yourself. But, just because YOU don't want it doesn't mean others think the same. Why should others be limited just because you don't like it?

Unfair in multiplayer? So disable it!

From now on, every reply in this thread starts with me requoting this, until you find some way to combat that logic.

[ultifd]

You are wrong. I have played MG multiplayer games before, just not with you. I can't play on my regular connection, but I have played full games before on other's connections. I've also played a lot of multiplayer on more stable games, and still decree this could be a fun option.

I might be wrong on that part, but I still don't think you play with the regular community of MG.  Thus you've never seen and discussed about the AI and everything else. Which is somewhat related to this. Balance. That's my real point.

Worried about cheating? DON'T USE IT!

That's not the right way to deal with it though. It'll take steps, as I've said before. For MG at least, it's not like that.  
It is GAE logic, because GAE= customizability. MG is something different, it's not GAE.

Valid reasoning required. The question isn't why, I already explained that. The question is: Why not? After all, the most brilliant part is that you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT! It's at the player's own discretion (and if single player only, it would never affect anyone else. If multiplayer available, perhaps it would require all players to agree to that). It would be a fun feature when you want a faster game, or a "bigger" game. It's like how Project Green was made to let players skip resource gathering and jump right into the action. Instead, you can speed up the resource gathering (on any faction too) to jump into the action faster. Or you could pit yourself with a 3x multiplier against a CPU with a 5x multiplier, just for insanely epic battles.

So, again, please explain the "why not" clause.

Now now Omega, don't go trying to apply GAE logic to an MG feature request.

While GAE is meant to be whatever the player/designer wants it to be, MG is a more specific kind of game -- I'm not sure what direction it's going, but it's a finite one.  This is the impression I get anyway.  Feel free to correct me, anyone.

And besides, the question is always "why", NOT "why not", when dealing with feature requests.  There's no sense in the developers putting forth the effort for something that hardly anyone is going to use/enjoy.  The burden of proof is there because everything takes time to implement, and there is the opportunity cost of not working on something else with that time.

[Omega]

I thought Glest itself was about openness and customizability? While I feel John is right (as always), I simply cannot help but be the one to support choice, customization, and possibilities. After all, if Glest itself was not modable, it would not have  been the game it is today. So, yeah, regardless of an undeclared position, I choose choice.

[ultifd]

I don't think Glest was about anything much, it was just an awesome and free game. GAE was the one that added those ideas, I think. They are nice ideas, but MG isn't GAE.

[John.d.h]

I don't think Glest was about anything much, it was just an awesome and free game. GAE was the one that added those ideas, I think. They are nice ideas, but MG isn't GAE.

I've got to agree with you there.  While I think the decision to include good mod support had to be a deliberate one on the part of the original Glest team, I never really saw them trying to push any "higher purpose" with the game.  They made the game they wanted to make, and then they moved on (in some cases, to jobs with major game developers like Electronic Arts).  As far as customization goes, GAE is all over it, but that's not really what MG is about.

We're getting way OT here, though.  Give me a minute to sort through this mess and figure out which posts need to split.