Iroquois Faction

[Omega]

Please do more research on various Aboriginal peoples. I'm sure it [lmgtfy=aboriginals]won't be too hard[/lmgtfy]. I thought this was a vital part of the Canadian school curriculum anyway?

[Zoythrus]

well, thing about the Prairie Indians is that Titi's guys are much more "Prairie" than yours. if you made another set of Prairie Indians, they'd just make the distinction between the two factions very hard (in short, "white noise").

you should go for a more "Woodland Indian" feel because that would be a very good counter-faction to Titi's guys. also, the Woodland Indians used longhouses, not teepees; and the Iroquois (who were woodland based) were of a matriarchal-type structure, so female workers are a nice fit. you seem to already be going on a good path for a set of Woodland Indians.

now, if you arent satisfied with Woodland guys, theres a bunch of other Native American groups you could go with any of the tribes listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
if you pick another tribe or area, i would suggest that you do research on that topic, no one likes a horribly historically-inaccurate faction.

just for the sake of saying it, i want you to know that i am not trying to be condescending, mean, rude, or against your ideas in any way, im just trying to help make your ideas better.

[ElimiNator]

I think Ill call them Iroquois.
I still want to have some tepees.
What do you think I should change to make them more Iroquoian?

[Omega]

What do you think I should change to make them more Iroquoian?

Get rid of the teepees.

I still want to have some tepees.

To be blunt, if you want a good faction, it's going to have to be historically accurate... This may be of help: http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm

Research materials:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois

Though, I'm sure you know plenty about them, seeing that knowledge of First Natives is a standard part of Canada's (and probably USA's too) education system. Please be sure to be at least reasonable accurate, as that's really the cost you have to pay to base a mod on a real life group of people. It's just an insult to them to have inaccuracies (heck, don't call them indians. First natives or aboriginals would be a more accurate name), stereotypes, and such. Please do them some good and get it right.

[ultifd]

Hmm...I'm pretty sure they were/are homeschooled.

[Zoythrus]

(heck, don't call them indians. First natives or aboriginals would be a more accurate name)

well, apparently, many would prefer "American Indian" or "Native American." (so says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy)

the thing about political correctness is that ironically it cant cater to everyone. but in this case, calling the faction the Iroquois is your best bet. if you need to refer to all of the factions that are based upon the Amerinds, you may want to go with one of the two terms i stated above.

also, as Omega said, if you are going to base a faction around a real group, you have to do them justice. find out - "what did their buildings/units look like?", "what were their fighting styles?", and "what was their culture?".

about culture, many (if not all) of their techs would have to be based around their culture. you cant just say "fatten cows" for a "food production increase" tech, go with something more like "perform rain ceremony" or something of that nature. honestly, one of the things that frustrates me the most about your previous mods is that ive seen techs called things like "more strength" or "fighting women," you cant do that.

good luck! Omega and i will be there for advice if you need it (please ask us, we want to help you)

[Omega]

(heck, don't call them indians. First natives or aboriginals would be a more accurate name)

well, apparently, many would prefer "American Indian" or "Native American." (so says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy)

Yes, only in American though. In Canada, they would be "aboriginals", and the Iroquois are spread through Southern Canada and Northern USA. Suppose it'd be easier to just avoid the terms all together and use "Iroquois" as a name for the faction and use more specific names for units.

good luck! Omega and i will be there for advice if you need it (please ask us, we want to help you)

Hmm...I'm pretty sure they were/are homeschooled.

Homeschooled or not, research is easy as typing "[lmgtfy]Wikipedia[/lmgtfy]".

[ElimiNator]

Ill have one tepee/tent made with birch bark.

And can't I just call them Iroquois?

[Zoythrus]

Ill have one tepee/tent made with birch bark.

you're pushing the boundaries, but as long as it is in Iroquoian style, then things should be ok.

And can't I just call them Iroquois?

if you are implying that you are going to make some stupid faction and tack on the name "Iroquois," then no. but if you are going to make a fairly true-to-history, amazingly awesome faction, then by all means go for it! Calling them just "Iroquois" would be perfectly fitting. when it comes to units in particular, go attempt to go with accurate names (maybe use Iroquoian words for the weapons or something, look back at the Aztec thread for details). honestly, it doesnt matter what you call them as long as it's not "Stick Man" or "Horse Guy."

now, ultimately, im not entirely sure how you Canadians are taught to refer to the tribal peoples of the North American continent, but i guess that if you were to release a pack of multiple aboriginal factions (which you should), you could go with "The First Peoples Pack" or something.


ok, just to throw something out there, Omega, do you think that this faction should have a rifle-toting unit? im assuming that this is around the time that American settlers were expanding West, which would make sense for the Iroquois to have traded rifles with the settlers. if so, maybe he could either be a heavy infantry or possibly a skirmisher (high damage, low HP/armor)

[ultifd]

Hmm...I'm pretty sure they were/are homeschooled.

Homeschooled or not, research is easy as typing "[lmgtfy]Wikipedia[/lmgtfy]".

I was saying that because you said "education system".
But yes, there is always wikipedia. Of course, you have to check the sources...

[Omega]

Ill have one tepee/tent made with birch bark.

you're pushing the boundaries, but as long as it is in Iroquoian style, then things should be ok.

Strong opposition because it's just not right. Please, read the links we've given. The whole page. The knowledge will do you good anyway.

if you are implying that you are going to make some stupid faction and tack on the name "Iroquois," then no. but if you are going to make a fairly true-to-history, amazingly awesome faction, then by all means go for it! Calling them just "Iroquois" would be perfectly fitting. when it comes to units in particular, go attempt to go with accurate names (maybe use Iroquoian words for the weapons or something, look back at the Aztec thread for details). honestly, it doesnt matter what you call them as long as it's not "Stick Man" or "Horse Guy."

+1

ok, just to throw something out there, Omega, do you think that this faction should have a rifle-toting unit? im assuming that this is around the time that American settlers were expanding West, which would make sense for the Iroquois to have traded rifles with the settlers. if so, maybe he could either be a heavy infantry or possibly a skirmisher (high damage, low HP/armor)

Depends on what time exactly this is supposed to be, though they could certainly have some guns. My knowledge is stronger on the Metis and such than the Iroquios, but if one tribe can get their hands on guns and stage a rebellion, surely others could too.

[John.d.h]

Indeed, the presence or absence of guns really depends on the time period, and therefore what factions you would expect them to be fighting.  During the [wiki]Norse colonization of the Americas[/wiki], there weren't even horses anywhere in the New World yet (they were brought over by the Spanish in the 1500s), and guns hadn't been invented yet anywhere in the world.  However, if they're meant to be fighting the British (think [wiki]French and Indian War[/wiki]), then many of them certainly would have guns and horses.

[Zoythrus]

im assuming that this is more of a "French/Indian War" period. guns are a must (but only 1 or 2 units should have guns, got that Elim?)

[ElimiNator]

Maybe they will have guns, I don't know yet.
Should I have all the buildings longhouses? That differ in shape/size/name?

[Zoythrus]

all longhouses? that wouldnt be a bad idea (anything's better than teepees). but just make sure that they are all easily identifiable from a distance. (many size/shape differences would be nice.)

[ElimiNator]

What else would I have other than longhouses?

[Zoythrus]

perhaps in the same vein as Hage's Japanese faction, you can give the Iroquois a European trading post. this would allow for the creation of musket-wielding troops as well as provide a few European upgrades (to symbolize their relationships with the settlers).

a farm would also be a necessity, because they were avid agriculturists. food should replace housing as a consumable resource. they believed that corn, beans, and squash were the three greatest gifts given by the gods, so maybe the farms should be able to research those beans and squash (two separate upgrades) to enhance food production.

you may want to have a temple of some sort that produces Shamans (as well as produces a few religion-based upgrades). the Shamans should have a weaker attack than the original Shamans, but can have a HP regen and Attack buff emanation around themselves (to differentiate themselves from the other Shamans). NOTE: this means that the Iroquois shaman wouldnt build anything (for balance of course).

after reading about them, the Iroquois seemed to be economic experts. perhaps, if you make a big Amerind pack, then the Iroquois should have the greatest economy. maybe make their army a tad on the weaker side to compensate for their amazing economy?

[ElimiNator]

What good will an "economy" be?

a farm would also be a necessity, because they were avid agriculturists. food should replace housing as a consumable resource. they believed that corn, beans, and squash were the three greatest gifts given by the gods, so maybe the farms should be able to research those beans and squash (two separate upgrades) to enhance food production.

I know, I have a corn field. Maybe you can build a corn field and upgrade it to beans, then squash.

you may want to have a temple of some sort that produces Shamans (as well as produces a few religion-based upgrades). the Shamans should have a weaker attack than the original Shamans, but can have a HP regen and Attack buff emanation around themselves (to differentiate themselves from the other Shamans). NOTE: this means that the Iroquois shaman wouldnt build anything (for balance of course).

I don't think Iroquois had temples. And what other building could I have other then longhouses?

[Zoythrus]

What good will an "economy" be?

a farm would also be a necessity, because they were avid agriculturists. food should replace housing as a consumable resource. they believed that corn, beans, and squash were the three greatest gifts given by the gods, so maybe the farms should be able to research those beans and squash (two separate upgrades) to enhance food production.

I know, I have a corn field. Maybe you can build a corn field and upgrade it to beans, then squash.

you may want to have a temple of some sort that produces Shamans (as well as produces a few religion-based upgrades). the Shamans should have a weaker attack than the original Shamans, but can have a HP regen and Attack buff emanation around themselves (to differentiate themselves from the other Shamans). NOTE: this means that the Iroquois shaman wouldnt build anything (for balance of course).

I don't think Iroquois had temples. And what other building could I have other then longhouses?

1. an economy is one of the greatest things in an RTS. an economy is how quickly and efficiently you can gain resources. more resources means more units/upgrades, and more units/upgrades means better chance at victory! economy is massively important!

2. that was exactly what i was thinking!

3. if not a temple, a Shaman's hut or something (put fire out in front or something to make it look mystical).

other buildings? i guess you can go with the basics:
War Hut
Lookout Post (defense tower)
Great Hall (Castle equivalent)
Trade Post (what i had discussed earlier, look back at my last post)
etc.

i just got this idea: you know how we all stress factional difference? well, this idea would make the Iroquois very different from your other factions. ok, make the Great Hall not build workers! the longhouses (which would be like houses) make workers, while the Great Hall stores resources and is also the main upgrade building (it'd make sense, the very big longhouses were for gatherings and stuff). you'd just need to give them a both a GH and a longhouse at the beginning of the game

[ElimiNator]

i just got this idea: you know how we all stress factional difference? well, this idea would make the Iroquois very different from your other factions. ok, make the Great Hall not build workers! the longhouses (which would be like houses) make workers, while the Great Hall stores resources and is also the main upgrade building (it'd make sense, the very big longhouses were for gatherings and stuff). you'd just need to give them a both a GH and a longhouse at the beginning of the game

Maybe, sounds like a good idea.

other buildings? i guess you can go with the basics:
War Hut
Lookout Post (defense tower)
Great Hall (Castle equivalent)
Trade Post (what i had discussed earlier, look back at my last post)
etc.

I don't need names, I need looks, buildings that the Iroquois used.

[Zoythrus]

you may want to browse around the AoE wiki for Iroquois architecture (i mean, the Iroquois were a faction in that game). here's an example: http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/War_Hut

[titi]

@zoythrus: I don't get how this AoE building should fit with indians. Please don't use anything like this.

[Zoythrus]

@zoythrus: I don't get how this AoE building should fit with indians. Please don't use anything like this.

im going off of a source that seems to have their facts straight. i didnt say that he should make that exact building, i just gave it because it represents the style.

[Omega]

I think Wikipedia seems to be the most correct, and it's link has already been posted several times above. I think you need to retitle this thread to something more appropriate.

[ElimiNator]

Done.

OK, so I need a good defence unit, and should I keep the thunder bird or should I use a different air unit? If so what?