Author Topic: Disguise skill  (Read 3627 times)

lazyanttu

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Disguise skill
« on: 25 January 2012, 23:57:23 »
This might be a very tricky thing to implement :|, but it won't hurt anyone if I suggest it.

A skill that would allow units to disguise as some other units or even as units of another side. For example thieves from The Settlers 4, changelings from SC2, hero ability in Battle for Middle Earth 2. Here are few examples what I mean:
1. Strong military unit, which would look (to an opponent) as regular worker, luring an attack. Or worker as super-powered unit, to scare enemies off.
2. I would have an unit, that could disguise as an opponent basic military unit and I move it to enemy's base. His own units won't start attacking it and to the enemy, the unit seems to have same unit colors and (it perhaps could even be selected), but no orders could be given.
3. An unit would have ability, to assume any enemy's shape by casting a spell to enemy unit.

How this could work? For example, if enemy clicks the disguised enemy, he could receive info that it is an enemy spy (and possibly force an attack to it). The skill could also have energy cost, when energy runs out, the disguise vanishes. Also, it could be detectable by detectors (and have "cloak" group), and if detected, its true form would be visible.

The possibilities are endless. What do you think? :)

Kiko

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #1 on: 26 January 2012, 00:47:37 »
The possibilities are endless. What do you think? :)

Well, as I mentioned in some other thread, I really like the idea of a Vampire faction. But not just "Ooh, we're vampires", and, "Ooh, we're Lycans" (hack, slash, etc). Something with a little more stealth, different HP drains on attacks in the day/night, etc. Your ideas would go a long way to making something like that very playable indeed.

Mind you, I'm still trying to work out what the 'cloak' stuff does in the Japanese faction's Shinobi unit.

Code: [Select]
    <cloak type="permanent">
      <de-cloak skill-class="attack" />
<group value="stealth" />
    </cloak>
« Last Edit: 26 January 2012, 07:13:27 by Kiko »

Omega

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #2 on: 26 January 2012, 06:11:02 »
Mind you, I'm still trying to work out what the 'cloak' stuff does in the Japanese faction, for one.

Code: [Select]
    <cloak type="permanent">
      <de-cloak skill-class="attack" />
<group value="stealth" />
    </cloak>
https://docs.megaglest.org/GAE/Cloaking
Really? That's in vanilla Japanese?
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 18:54:43 by filux »
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Kiko

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2012, 07:12:16 »
Really? That's in vanilla Japanese?

Yep. That Japanese mod is very good indeed. I need to read through the cloaking stuff (thanks for the link) as I've only just realised its effect in the game. It seems to cause opposing units to ignore the Shinobi up to a certain distance, but as it's all fairly close on-screen I haven't spotted it until recently. I think a semi-transparent unit animation while cloaked would be a great help with that.

Ah; I've also just realised that the de-cloak skill class is what causes cloaking to be removed. So if a Shinobi unit sneaks around without attacking then it shouldn't be seen by others. I'll have to go and do some more testing...

The Japanese Wiki page has some details, but my Shinobi automatically attack enemy units if I sneak into their towns. I'll have to see if it's possible to stop auto-attack, which brings me back to the topic. In implementing your idea, lazyanttu, the disguised unit would need a 'do not attack' ability for certain.
« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 18:54:10 by filux »

lazyanttu

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2012, 12:46:44 »
In GAE it is already possible to put auto-attack off. And if you don't want your units running in panic, remember to put auto-flee off, too :D. First time with this ability I just set auto-attack off, and I found that my hidden stealth units started running away :D.

Kiko

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #5 on: 26 January 2012, 12:57:39 »
In GAE it is already possible to put auto-attack off. And if you don't want your units running in panic, remember to put auto-flee off, too :D. First time with this ability I just set auto-attack off, and I found that my hidden stealth units started running away :D.

I posted here about it, and would be really grateful for some example XML in the right thread, lazyanttu. I've just gone through a bunch of Wiki pages on GAE, but the kind of tags you mention aren't listed.

Bloodwurm

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #6 on: 26 January 2012, 14:32:41 »
One thing that always annoyed me with the SC2's changeling is the fact that they are poor spies. First they transform into only one type of unit (the base one) and second you can't give them orders.
To make them truly effective spies, the tricked player should be able to select them and give them orders like he sees fit. If the unit were to be involved in a battle, they could deal 0 damage if the target was an ally/unit of the real owning player.
A spell that would deal an effect (like some slow spell) could instead do nothing.
Imagine the player's surprise at engaging in a battle to find that half his troops are actually dealing no damage.
The owning player (the real player to which the unit belongs) could always take control and give orders to his spies and prompt a surprise attack unto an unsuspecting opponent, removing the disguise at the same time (thus starting to deal real damage).

Another really nice trick would be to disguise the units as some allie's unit. Imagine you are playing some 2v2. On Team 1, you got player 1 and 2. You, player 3, want to infiltrate player 1.
You disguise your unit as units from player 2 and then move them into player 1's base. Player 1 would think that they are player 2's unit backing him up. Player 2 wouldn't even see them on his minimap (well, up to debate i guess). Then you could wreak havoc as you'd wish!  :D

Oh the sweetness!

lazyanttu

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #7 on: 26 January 2012, 15:34:14 »
I don't knowif this is too off-topic, but ability like the SC Queen's parasite, once the spell is cast on enemy unit, you will see everything that unit is able to see! That would be neat :).

Psychedelic_hands

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #8 on: 27 January 2012, 10:08:42 »
One thing that always annoyed me with the SC2's changeling is the fact that they are poor spies. First they transform into only one type of unit (the base one) and second you can't give them orders.
To make them truly effective spies, the tricked player should be able to select them and give them orders like he sees fit. If the unit were to be involved in a battle, they could deal 0 damage if the target was an ally/unit of the real owning player.
A spell that would deal an effect (like some slow spell) could instead do nothing.
Imagine the player's surprise at engaging in a battle to find that half his troops are actually dealing no damage.
The owning player (the real player to which the unit belongs) could always take control and give orders to his spies and prompt a surprise attack unto an unsuspecting opponent, removing the disguise at the same time (thus starting to deal real damage).

Another really nice trick would be to disguise the units as some allie's unit. Imagine you are playing some 2v2. On Team 1, you got player 1 and 2. You, player 3, want to infiltrate player 1.
You disguise your unit as units from player 2 and then move them into player 1's base. Player 1 would think that they are player 2's unit backing him up. Player 2 wouldn't even see them on his minimap (well, up to debate i guess). Then you could wreak havoc as you'd wish!  :D

Oh the sweetness!

I like the cound of this idea!  :O

Though I imagine the AI would have some issues with this. SO until either AI or Multiplayer(Which hopefully should be soon) is fixed. I don't think that this idea would have much of a point. Best leave this out of your tech-tree plans for now.

John.d.h

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #9 on: 27 January 2012, 16:16:57 »
This seems like a very specialized skill. I'm not sure how much use people would get out of it. :-\

Zoythrus

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #10 on: 27 January 2012, 20:12:59 »
This seems like a very specialized skill. I'm not sure how much use people would get out of it. :-\
In Red Alert 3, the Allies have a unit called the "Spy" who can disguise as any enemy infantry (in your sight, you have to click on an enemy unit with him selected). with his disguise on, he can waltz right by defenses and enemy units, unless a scout breaks his disguise. now, the Spy has no default attack, meaning that there'd be no fear of him breaking cloak. Why is he important? because he can enter into enemy structures and wreak havoc on their base (stealing money, blacking out the minimap, stopping production, ect). i could definitely see a use for a unit like this in Glest.

PS. it shows a transparent version of the enemy infantry he's disguised as overlaid onto a transparent version of his model. that's how you and your allies know that he's a spy and what he's disguised as. also worth noting, the enemy players have absolutely no control over him, so they cant select him at all.

John.d.h

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #11 on: 28 January 2012, 00:39:20 »
I'm not sure what is to be gained by this as opposed to the regular stealth skill. Obviously I'm not a coder but this seems like substantial work for a trivial pay off. Obviously they're different, but their purpose is close enough that I don't think it's worth a new feature.

Omega

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #12 on: 28 January 2012, 06:20:57 »
I'm not sure what is to be gained by this as opposed to the regular stealth skill. Obviously I'm not a coder but this seems like substantial work for a trivial pay off. Obviously they're different, but their purpose is close enough that I don't think it's worth a new feature.
I'm afraid I gotta agree with John. The feature's request board has loads of great ideas that are broader and could be more useful for mods (such as retributive effects). I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, but it's too narrowly targeted that it would be of very low priority. To a small degree, cloaking can replicate a bit of what you want. Of course, there's nothing from stopping you from coding it yourself, if you have the skills.
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Kiko

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #13 on: 28 January 2012, 08:32:15 »
I'm not sure what is to be gained by this as opposed to the regular stealth skill.

While I'm new to Glest (and use GAE because I want to save complex single-player games) I'm enjoying the stealth aspect of Shinobi in the Japanese Faction. The only problem with them on GAE 0.3.2 is that they auto-attack when close to enemy units, thus de-cloaking themselves and usually dying shortly after.

Real Shinobi would often disguise themselves while spying, and in GAE simply switching off auto-attack and auto-flee would give the impression of such stealth. Maybe when you've tried that on the new build for a while lazyanttu, it might feel like what you're after..?

I'm looking forward to a new GAE release for Windows which doesn't CTD instantly, so if you guys want a tester then please do chuck a working build up somewhere.

will

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Re: Disguise skill
« Reply #14 on: 28 January 2012, 12:13:46 »
Perhaps they can morph to a stealth unit that has no attack skill?

 

anything