Author Topic: More on Megapack balance  (Read 3855 times)

Manric

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More on Megapack balance
« on: 5 March 2012, 11:48:25 »
A lot has been said about relative strenghts of megapack factions. The difficulty, however, lies in the way comparisons are made: much, very much indeed, depends on the skills of the players, as well on the strategy chosen.
I thought that what we needed was an impartial comparison. And which better than the AI of the game? So I set up the following test: I built a map where my own faction was isolated by physical barriers, while two other factions could fight freely. With fog disabled, I could sit comfortably and watch.
The two fighter factions were set at CPU mega, and had ample supply of resources to beguin with, as well as lots of elbow room for holding massive battles. Then a good number of runs was started.
And here follows the result of all runs. I qualify the difficulty encountered by the winning side as (easy), (medium) or (hard), depending on the time needed and the number of kills.

ROMAN beat Norsemen (hard), Magic (easy).
PERSIAN beat Magic (easy), Tech (easy), Norsemen (medium), Indian (easy), Egypt (hard), Roman (medium).
TECH beat Magic (easy), Norsemen (hard), Indian (hard), Roman (hard).
EGYPT beat Tech (medium), Indian (easy), Norsemen (hard), Magic (easy), Roman (easy).
NORSEMEN beat Indian (medium), Magic (easy).
INDIAN beat Roman (medium), Magic (easy).

Conclusions: The strongest faction would be, according to this, Persian, winners of all encounters. Surprising? Hardly, seeing the impressive firepower of the persian magicians (to say nothing of their somber Ayatollah-like looks). Roman, on the other side, do not appear to be anywhere as strong as many believe. The weakest faction seems to be Magic, easy losers with all enemies.
Norsemen get themselves in trouble if the game lasts too long: they use up resources at such a prodigious rate that they eventually run short.
And this is all, friends. It was an amusing experience.

wciow

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #1 on: 5 March 2012, 12:14:57 »
This confirms what everyone knows, that magic is the weakest faction overall. Maybe Magic should be made a little stronger so it can compete with the other Megapack factions.
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Omega

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #2 on: 5 March 2012, 14:16:55 »
I'd say give magic a good defence unit. The golem isn't up to snuff and the tower of souls is air only.
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ElimiNator

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #3 on: 5 March 2012, 16:50:07 »
Actually, the factions aren't weak. The AI uses them wrong. I a human was behind the faction it would be way stronger.
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uncle

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #4 on: 5 March 2012, 22:10:50 »
Most units of Persians are shitty and I really do not know what is their key advantage (in PvP, not CPUvCPU).

I tried to play with this faction and I was never satisfied with it.

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #5 on: 5 March 2012, 23:26:00 »
Manric, just so you know, there's an Observer option in Advanced options, which, when active, allows you to change your faction to *Observer*. No need for custom map building.
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titi

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #6 on: 6 March 2012, 00:21:29 »
Manric , all I also made all these tests on different maps a long time ago when the factions were made. ( beside romans )
As the others say, its very hard to make to balance becasue the AI often plays very differen't compared with human players!

In the last month there were some very active players and they got better and better. This showed some ( how I still think small ) balance problems regarding human vs human games. What I saw so far:

* Magic is VERY hard to play and the AI cannot really play magic. Managing many archmages in a fight is really tricky! Maybe the are a bit ( just a bit ) weak.

* Persian: this one definitly has a problem later in long games. ( Options are  giving the Magician a splash attack? Or the elephants a speed update later in game?

* Norsemen is the strongest faction if a good human player plays it. They are so strong because the units fit perfectly regarding attacks. I have no real idea how to make them at least a bit less powerful without destroying the fun.

BUT: why not should there not be a bit different strong factions? This gives you another option to setup fun and challenging games!
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Omega

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #7 on: 6 March 2012, 05:06:01 »
I'm personally fine with magic's strength, and don't find it too hard to use, and can beat an ultra AI of any faction. However, you are right, the AI, on the other hand, is not me, and kinda sucks at magic. It would be nice to see Lua controlled AIs, allowing (1) each faction to be played optimally, since not all factions are meant to be played the same way, and (2) providing a practical method for "regular modders" who aren't programmers to tweak with the AI to see if they can improve it. The hard coded AI is not only largely too complex for a community where a number of "regulars" can't even compile the game, but it's also very tiresome to recompile the game every time you want to change one value (experimentation). Of course, Lua AIs would be rather complex to implement, but I do think they would have a massive payoff which would definitely make them worth the effort.

And going back to magic's defence, I still stand by the fact that Magic lacks a proper defencive structure. When defending as magic, it's always played with large numbers of offensive units, in particular the vulnerable battlemages and archmages, since there's no resilient defencive structure. I suppose one could say it's part of the trade off for the powerful offence magic boasts (namely those archmages with their massive splash), though it does seem a bit unbalanced if you're constantly on the defence.
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Manric

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #8 on: 6 March 2012, 07:36:00 »
BUT: why not should there not be a bit different strong factions? This gives you another option to setup fun and challenging games!

Quite right! They "must" be different. It would be a really boring game if they were all exactly the same.

Mr War

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #9 on: 6 March 2012, 15:55:12 »
To OP, good analysis.

The balancing tool can be a useful aid but it's kinda too late for these factions and play testing is def the ultimate testing environment. I have toted with running a Montecarlo simulation or straight simulation on it but alas I dont think I'll ever have the time. 

Ishmaru

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #10 on: 6 March 2012, 16:30:09 »
BUT: why not should there not be a bit different strong factions? This gives you another option to setup fun and challenging games!

Quite right! They "must" be different. It would be a really boring game if they were all exactly the same.

You know there is a difference between "balance" and "same" armies could be ballanced but radically different strategies...

 I keep hearing about how the persian faction is weak, and magic is very hard to play then I think there is an issue that should be addressed?  Why are persians so weak, what is that faction lacking? What made magic so hard? Maybe is because their malee ugets get team killed because of their  heavy use of splash attacks? Just a thought...
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uncle

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #11 on: 6 March 2012, 16:32:31 »
The flying carpet must be improved. I would add at least some kind of a powerful special attack against air units (which could be deadly to air armies, especially to Norsemen, whose units are quite expensive). Otherwise it is a really lame unit.

I also suggest to give another extra feature to the Magic's anti-air building - it might accelerate the growth of the energy of the player's units in its range. That should help with defending the base.

We need to bring differences in each faction (special attacks or features), or playing with almost the same units (although from different factions) becames to be boring after some time of playing.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 6 March 2012, 16:42:23 by uncle »

uuu

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #12 on: 6 March 2012, 17:03:31 »
I agree with titi, ElimiNator and Omega:
- analysis draws wrong conclusion: the only conclusion can be, how strong is CPU with given faction. And not how strong the given faction is. Beauty of MegaGlest is lot of possibilities, so intelligent people actually kill cpu easily (unlike in e.g. chess).
- lua cpu sounds like fun.
I strongly disagree about "strongest" or "weakest" faction, e.g. on very small map, Magic is strongest, with immediate attack. Remember "siege of despair" scenario - beating 3x cpu mega? ;-)

Come on, I hope you enjoy exploring possibilities and strategies, too, e.g.:
- don't play Norsemen against Magic or Indian on small map ... guess why
- don't play Romans against Norsemen on big resourceful map ... guess why
- don't play Persians against non-persians on big resourceful map with narrow paths ... guess why
...

E.g. persian flying carpet isn't "shit", it has fast good attack, and it's weak. Possible uses? Guess...  :D

Omega

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #13 on: 7 March 2012, 00:20:12 »
What made magic so hard? Maybe is because their malee ugets get team killed because of their  heavy use of splash attacks? Just a thought...
Difficulty is a relative term. I would say it's not too difficult to play magic, just radically different from other factions. While most factions emphasize on production from buildings, magic focuses on producing one type of unit, the initiate, then morphing it up. The mobile summoner will produce the rest of the units, and is a bit more like a building, but at the same time, radically different. As mentioned earlier, there's magic lacks a proper defencive building. The golem is the main defencive unit, but has considerably lower health than most defencive units and its short range isn't made up from the fact it can move, as movement is limited and every fault the pathfinder makes critically reduces the golem's usefulness. As well, the impact type attacks fair well against buildings and poor against offensive units, which is quite the opposite of the golem's uses. The tower of souls is air-only, but since magic has so many ranged units and its air unit, the dragon, can attack air-to-air, the tower of souls is pretty much useless and I don't bother with them myself.

Of course, magic is also a touch more limited in the energy resource. Energy requires the construction of immobile energy sources, which can quickly flood a camp and if not built in a good location, can be detrimental to pathfinding. Dark Magic solved this problem by having energy sources produce energy (then a size 0 unit), eliminating the need to build more than one energy source. Magic's behemoth is rather tricky to build, as you must construct a very-late game wicker behemoth with an initiate at a point where you are likely not paying much attention to initiates, then morph that into the behemoth. And the behemoth, being a size 2 melee unit, does poorly in large battles, where pathfinding prevents it from even reaching the foe. Tech's battle machine can get around this with its ranged attack, though the AI has difficulties with both of these units.

The dragon is magic's redeeming quality, and does help  empower magic a bit more. The AI doesn't use summoners very well in two ways. Firstly, while they can be used as an offensive unit, there's little reason to do so, as in most occasions, a summoner is best suited to remain at a safe distance from enemies, continuing to produce more units. Secondly, when a summoner is attacked, if they die before completing the queue, the resources are lost. Of course, this applies to all buildings, though summoners are far more likely to die if they become attacked than buildings, with their hefty HP. This could be improved by canceling the queue when health falls below a certain amount.

The fact that the two main units, which make up the bulk of your offensive force, the battlemage and archmage, have to be morphed from other units (the initiate and battlemage respectively) makes it far more difficult to handle magic. The total time to produce the units is slightly slower than other factions, even more so for human players since they must manually reselect the unit and tell them to morph again, for the archmage. And of course, the archmage's splash is particularly deadly to its own units. While it may not be the most practical, I think balance could be improved by having the splash only harm enemy units. Daemons, for example, are nearly useless once you have an archmage in the fray, because they'll meet the foe at melee range around the same time the archmage starts casting from afar, which will generally kill the daemons quickly, causing lost resources and allowing the enemies to advance upon the vulnerable mages faster.

Magic's ghost armour is pretty much a mirror image of the guard, and can be used in the same way. The drake rider is similar to the horseman, but can attack air and has a medium range attack. However, the drake rider is rather difficult to obtain, as it's morphed from the summoner, preventing that summoner from being used to, well, summon stuff. That also makes it take some time to obtain.

Of course, with all that being said, Magic does boast a strong early production, since their main building also functions as the producer of their principal unit, the battlemage, and the archmage does deal devastating splash damage - provided your own units stay out of the way.
« Last Edit: 7 March 2012, 00:28:38 by Omega »
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Manric

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #14 on: 7 March 2012, 14:59:33 »
What made magic so hard? Maybe is because their malee ugets get team killed because of their  heavy use of splash attacks? Just a thought...
Difficulty is a relative term. I would say it's not too difficult to play magic, just radically different from other factions...

Thanks for your clarifying comments. Those of us who had only given one or two trials at Magic and had discarded them in favour of more rewarding races now surely will have a renewed impulse for giving those cute Magicians another chance.
I, for one, am already itching for a try.

treba

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #15 on: 8 March 2012, 12:41:06 »
concerning the fact that summoning is much more difficult than just building units in a production building (because you can give only one production order at a time, not five, you have no really point where your units gather and atleast for behemoths and battle mashines you always have to select a point where to biuld), it would be so much more efficient to have hotkeys.
that alone would make magic stronger and easier to play, spending much less time on producing units and more on microing your archmages in battle.

Manric

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #16 on: 23 March 2012, 10:47:59 »
Since my first post with the results, with a surprisingly poor performance of the Norsemen, I have done some further testing. The defeats of the Norsemen came in all cases from exhaustion of their near resources. They seem to use them up at a much faster rate than other factions, and, with a large map, favouring a long game, they often have to stop producing units for want of gold or stone. And defeat is inevitable. So I tried giving both sides an enormous supply of resources and reran the tests. And, not strangely, this time Norsemen came up the winners.


wciow

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #17 on: 23 March 2012, 17:57:44 »
concerning the fact that summoning is much more difficult than just building units in a production building.

This is the problem with magic. Its not that they are too weak to compete, just that they are difficult to play so people just go for easier factions like tech, or Indians.
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victorj

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Re: More on Megapack balance
« Reply #18 on: 23 March 2012, 23:28:02 »
For me it has not to be balance, to give more fun to play, so are each faction has its strong point, when a player has a playing style that adapts to each faction, for when I've played with the magic, often gave a surprise attack on the enemy's base, evolution all initates to battlemage. and going to attack.
« Last Edit: 23 March 2012, 23:34:23 by victorj »