Author Topic: user accounts / ranking system  (Read 2403 times)

titi

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user accounts / ranking system
« on: 4 September 2012, 07:43:14 »
The discussion came up to have player accounts and a ranking system in future versions of MG.
A problem we faced is how would a ranking system look like? How do other ( maybe similar games ) handle this?

Pleae give us some ideas!
« Last Edit: 4 September 2012, 08:57:23 by titi »
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MoLAoS

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Re: user accounts / scoring system
« Reply #1 on: 4 September 2012, 08:27:03 »
by scoring system do you mean ranking system?

titi

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #2 on: 4 September 2012, 08:55:33 »
yes I will replace the word
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MoLAoS

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #3 on: 4 September 2012, 10:56:32 »
The common method is elo I would imagine.

titi

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #4 on: 4 September 2012, 12:07:32 »
elo? please describe a bit more detailed ( and try to map the description to MG )

update: I read a bit at wikipedia now ...
Elo is something for one on one games ( only? )
I think we need to take into account a bit more or we should have different lists .

How to handle games like:
2vs2
4 humans vs 4 cpus
classical singleplayer games
...

I really would like to have something for this too , at least when the games were played on "trusted" headless servers.

« Last Edit: 4 September 2012, 12:15:56 by titi »
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MoLAoS

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #5 on: 4 September 2012, 13:00:29 »
There are modified forms of elo for groups of players. MOBA match making software does this.

Rankings for players vs CPU doesn't make sense. Computers are stupid and they suck at strategy games. They never get better either.

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #6 on: 4 September 2012, 18:25:45 »
Rankings for players vs CPU doesn't make sense. Computers are stupid and they suck at strategy games. They never get better either.

I do agree that game rankings should be vs humans only.

Maybe then two scores? One for competive play and one for sportsmanship?
Low Sportsmanship stats will be used to block bad players from playing on clean servers, and can be effected by online  vs cpu games via voting. Meanwhile competive play could be displayed for bettermatch making, or just to show off. I dont think single player games should be tracked?
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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #7 on: 4 September 2012, 18:27:52 »
Here the concept of my modified version of ELO for MG:

https://docs.megaglest.org/MG/ELO (Wiki because TeX does not work in the forum)

« Last Edit: 18 June 2016, 18:37:30 by filux »

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #8 on: 5 September 2012, 20:41:43 »
i actually disagree to such a classical ranking system. why? i just remember the situation in starcraft 1 and warcraft 2

on one site, it does not encourage weaker players to play, as they just get worse scores that they play in the beginning
secondly, there's easy ways to abuse the system to get some uber account with perfect stats. many people did that in starcraft....somehow turned the whole system into senseless crap =(

i guess a system that is not so easy to cheat on must be one where you can't choose your oponent yourself like in warcraft 3/sc2.
but you need a really big community for that. sorry for beeing decronstructive here =)

MoLAoS

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #9 on: 5 September 2012, 21:36:09 »
its just not possible to have a system that players won't abuse. i can crack any ranking system personally.

Omega

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #10 on: 6 September 2012, 06:12:24 »
Personally, I have to think that a rating system will not work for MegaGlest. Why? Because we're open source. It's just too difficult to create a way to sign into an account, create a password, etc in an open source program. Not impossible, but until the security is perfected, it would open up a login server to hackers (without even needing any real skill). Heck, even closed source examples like the Sony Playstation store have been hacked. Sure, MegaGlest might not get as much attention, but it'd likely be so easy to crack in comparison (and a rating system would be a more compelling target than just cheating in a game). And even without hacking, it'd be pretty easy to just play against yourself (such as on a second computer) and purposely win.

And ranking people's sportsmanship? It'd be difficult to be consistent, hard to implement, easy to get around (make yet another new account), and would have to be manually controlled.

I just don't think the massive effort it would take (mostly security-wise) is worth the purely aesthetic ranking system, which doesn't really add much to the game.

You want my opinion on a potential alternative? Make a "recent games" list on the website. At the end of a multiplayer game, send the statistics to the server, and have it temporarily store them, using just the in-game names (no accounts, etc) and connecting by similar means as we have the master server list. It would not rank players, but simply show the results of the last, say, ten games, so individuals can have their "masterful victory" (or crushing defeat) circling the net, for a short period of time, anyway. It wouldn't have really serious percussions if hacked or abused, and would be easier than trying to setup a secure account setup. Personally, though, I think it's not really worth the bother. The time spent creating a ranking board (etc) could be better spent with a more useful function, such as rejoining disconnected games or improving the AI.
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Pizza90

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #11 on: 9 September 2012, 16:33:08 »
Ranking system could be a nice "frill" to add, but only if before there is a strong and solid system to authenticate users (using the forum account or maybe openid too) that is secure and so on. As said above having a ranking system imo could penalize new users and discriminate them (ie: player X doesnt want player Y in his team because he is a top rank while player Y lost 90% of his battles). There should be also a way to avoid people creating 1000 accounts to win a lot of games without much efforts (one could play 1vs1 with 2 of his accounts).

I think before releasing a version with this system implemented we should be sure that almost everything is perfect or mg could lose players because of this and at the same time it would be filled with "ranking cheaters".
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titi

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #12 on: 9 September 2012, 18:11:31 »
What about this idea:

We start without a ranking system and just an user account.
Each user account saves ( if user wishes ) the last 100 game setups, dates when played and results of this user including single player games .

On a "ranking" website the user can choose to publish his results so others can see it. I think even this would be fun !
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MuwuM

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #13 on: 9 September 2012, 18:33:38 »
I like the idea of a ranking where players can select to join or not.

About ranking cheaters: I would recommend not to allow ranked games between the same amount of time, without having played with a number of other player.

titi_son

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #14 on: 10 September 2012, 16:01:17 »
What about this idea:

We start without a ranking system and just an user account.
Each user account saves ( if user wishes ) the last 100 game setups, dates when played and results of this user including single player games .

On a "ranking" website the user can choose to publish his results so others can see it. I think even this would be fun !
That would be an option but i think no one will use it, because if I hear "RANKINGS"  i think "HIGHSCORES".
I want to compare my ELO with the one of other Players.
What about make some online scenarios on our headless Servers.
And if you win one of these Scenarios you will get ELO.
This is needed too prevent cheating! For example someone makes a map where 7 Cpu(MEGA) are jailed in stone rings and the only one which has gold is the player.
Or you just change a faction.xml;Tech gets only a farm at the start!
or you just play a map 7(Players or Cpu)  vs 1 Cpu.
You wont get much ELO but the game will end early, so just play that game 100 times and you got lots of ELO.
so i think its required that you only get ELO for pre-built scenarios on our Headless-Servers.

(and does MuwuM thought about games you easily win? like playing against a cpu(easy)? Do you get ELO for these too? is that right?)
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MuwuM

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #15 on: 10 September 2012, 17:59:09 »
does MuwuM thought about games you easily win? like playing against a cpu(easy)? Do you get ELO for these too? is that right?

for beating a cpu on easy you get 1 ELO point ... for a match again a player of your skill 16.

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #16 on: 10 September 2012, 18:07:44 »
does MuwuM thought about games you easily win? like playing against a cpu(easy)? Do you get ELO for these too? is that right?

for beating a cpu on easy you get 1 ELO point ... for a match again a player of your skill 16.
I mean if you are at a very high skill and kill a cpu(easy). Do you get less points for that? or do you get as much as you would get if you are a low skill player.
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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #17 on: 10 September 2012, 21:01:07 »
I still think the entire ranking system concept is an awful lot of work for what we get. The open source nature of MegaGlest also means that top notch security would be required on a login system, lest it be manipulated. Just how useful is the limited ranking systems we seem to be suggesting here?
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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #18 on: 11 September 2012, 12:10:28 »
No doubt, it it involves quite a bit of work to do it in the first place, and then to get it right, more so if you want the full thing, less if you do a subset at first for evaluation. But I'm not so worried about possible implications of introducing, for opt-in testing, player accounts, and, in a second stage, statistics (which can be presented one or the other way). Generally, we should separate the discussion on the topics involved here: accounts and access control, collection of statistics, presentation of statistics / rankings.

Accounts and access control

While this was mentioned before, I'd like to stress again that I think the account system, as well as collection and presentation of statistics should be opt-in, i.e. you should by no means be required to do any of this. Hosting yourself should always remain possible without any registrations, and if there will be more people providing headless servers then I'm sure some of them will remain open.

It was mentioned that accounts would have to be secure - sure that's always so, and yes, there are cases like Sony and many others where data leaks occurred. Which is bad, and we would need to prevent that. That's even though we are clearly not going to store payment / billing information and hardly any personal information. Which, on the one hand, makes it inattractive to data thieves (i.e. we'd see way less targetted attacks already), and if there was a compromise, the impact would be much more limited, to the possibility of falsifying statistics (which is not much of an issue if you have recent backups which can not be compromised the same way). I' also convinced that some friends would volunteer to do a code review for security.

Collection of statistics

Since it is a matter of privacy, just like accounts, statistic collection should be opt-in only. Some statistics, like hardware / software / network information, could be stored (if the user decides to give it away) anonymously or pseudonomously, so unrelated to accounts. Data related to the players' gaming history would have to be account related, at least in a later stage when it is intended to present player specific statistics online.

Presentation of statistics

On the one hand, there would be anonymous statistics, such as on the hardware / software / network. On the other hand, there could be personal statistics. Those could be visible to just the very player after authentication, or it could be publically available. There could be calculated values, like ranking, or there could be just the values the game delivers already. In the first stage, I think we would clearly not have a public ranking there, yet. This can be an option for later if we realise the foundation of the system (account / permission system and statistics collection) has reached a reliable stage and we are ready and actually still think it's a good idea to have more.

So there are really a lot of options here. We do not need and should not try to have the full-blown thing up in no time, instead we should separate this undertaking into multiple development stages. And we can always decide not to develop or roll out a next step. For a long time, much of this would have to be considered unstable and in-development and a preview anyway, and everyone would need to be aware that any statistics collected may and most likely will be deleted whenever a new preview revision is rolled out. This can and should be well communicated, so that players would not be disappointed about any lost stats.

Yes, all of this is a larger undertaking, but we're not in a hurry, and things can be done step by step, and be tested internally before with some testers, and then rolled out, still as a preview. I think this is doable, and could be fun, and would actually make MegaGlest more attractive to new players (which, despite of the fun of developing it, would be the main reason to do it).
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MuwuM

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #19 on: 11 September 2012, 12:32:34 »
I mean if you are at a very high skill and kill a cpu(easy). Do you get less points for that? or do you get as much as you would get if you are a low skill player.

Here are some examlpes for my calculation (team 1 always won).

Team 1ELONew ELOTeam 2ELONew ELO
Player 110001016Player 11000984

Team 1ELONew ELOTeam 2ELONew ELO
Player 110001003CPU EASY400397

Team 1ELONew ELOTeam 2ELONew ELO
Player 125002508Player 120001991
Player 2Player 215001493

Team 1ELONew ELOTeam 2ELONew ELO
Player 129002901Player 1400397

Team 1ELONew ELOTeam 2ELONew ELO
Player 1400429Player 129002885
« Last Edit: 11 September 2012, 12:38:31 by MuwuM »

treba

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Re: user accounts / ranking system
« Reply #20 on: 13 September 2012, 12:04:40 »
a little bit off-topic, but as someone was speaking about scenarios on headless servers, i had to think about the "archievements" you can get in many new games.
these archievements can look like:
  • I can win: win against a cpu ultra in one-on-one
  • One to rule them all: win against three human opponents
  • Teamplayer: win 20 2on2 games
  • Zombiekiller: kill 1000 mumies
  • Survivor: manage to win the Survivor scenario
  • ...

so if you are loged in with an account, playing on a trusted headless server, the server will recognise whenever you archieve one of these things. it will give the player a visual feedback in that moment and other players will be able to see the archivements in the players account.

the idea behind it is to give a player the chance to somehow impress other players and to motivate him to play through all the different parts of the game (multiplayer, scenarios, different factions, different play styles)
so if we are already thinking about a account system that is meant to motivate players, i want to suggest this one, as it can live together with any ranking system and has no real disadvantage (but the work to implent it) and a lot of potential.

regards